Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
You mean the success that was handed to him ala Barry Switzer. How has he done now that he's faced some adversity?
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Kubiak Supporters: Why should he stay?
- Thread starter Mr. White
- Start date
You mean the success that was handed to him ala Barry Switzer. How has he done now that he's faced some adversity?
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Switzer is a bad comparison since Tomlin was a very successful NFL defensive coach before he came to the Steelers and Switzer was a boola boola coach before he came into the league...and are you really bagging on Tomlin after he won a Super Bowl and has a better record that Kubiak has now? This is the best Kubiak has ever done....this is the worst Tomlin has ever done and he has much less track record of mediocrity than Kubiak has.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Quit trying to split hairs. They were both first time head coaches. Both were very successful in their previous endeavors and both involved football. No one is "bagging on" Tomlin, simply stating fact. He took over a very talented and successful team. How many major parts are different today than what was on Cowher's roster??
Maybe it's the worse he's done because it's the first time he's had to face any real adversity.
The argument here is that both teams lost major contributors to their teams and both teams have struggled since.
*EDIT* I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm trying to point out some points / counter points to those that approach issues with an open mind.
LonerATO
All Pro
Before the Bengals came out of no where this year the Steelers had almost a cake walk in the AFC North. Tomlin also got a ton of veteran talent who had been to a Super Bowl a few years back. Kubiak got some of the worst talent in the league playing in the what many have thought to be the best division in football. Whether Kubiak stays or gets fired you have to admit that he took a tougher challenge then Tomlin.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Probably so. I could care less one way or another.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
So I guess after 48 games and an entire roster turn over, we still blame Kubiak's idiotic game management, and 5 wins in week 14 - for three consecutive years, on Casserly. Dom Davis's career was shorter than 48 games wasn't it?
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I'm not splitting hairs. He hasn't "done worse" than Cowher if you look at both their initial two seasons. Last time I checked, Bill Cowher didn't win the SB every year either. I just thought it was a bad comparison to Switzer since Switzer had zero NFL experience.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Wasn't directed at you at all. I missed where you said anything that would have me directing those comments at you.
And I agree with everything you said. I just think there are plenty of valid reasons to can Kubes without muddying the waters with PC comments that every coach makes.
LonerATO
All Pro
I think Kubiak has made bad coaching decisions when it comes to game day, but the fact that Tomlin started with a Super Bowl team and Kubiak had to rebuild a team. I would love to see how Tomlin would have done if he was the HC of the Browns.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
well, he'd have less wins. It's not like that wouldn't be obvious...but why are we knocking Tomlin? Of all fan bases?
LonerATO
All Pro
I knock the Steelers for what they did to the Oilers back in the day and the fact that my old college roommate was from Mt. Lebanon and was a massive Steelers fan. I have nothing against Tomlin personally, but I'm almost to the point that I want to defend Kubiak on these boards. Im so sick of all of this negativity that has permeated this board. You cant post one thing right now without it becoming about how shitty Kubiak is or how this team has no heart blah blah blah. I guess Im not a negative person or I can let things go after a few days. Some of the threads start off with good intent, but end up being the same.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
It took him (Cowher) 14 years.
*****************
As I mentioned earlier in this thread or another Cowher inherited a hell of defense too, Rod Woodson, Greg LLoyd, Hardy Nickerson and Carnell Lake to name a few.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Vinny, Do you think, based on the roster in '06, '07, and '08, that the Texans should've had better records? I don't think many people would argue that the '07 squad should've been competing for the playoffs.
I totally agree that Kubiak has led this team to a very disappointing season this year. But, I continue to attempt to make the point: good coaches lead teams to disappointing seasons sometimes. I bring up guys like Belichek and Tomlin because they are clearly examples of good coaches yet their teams' are disappointing this season. And, they have clearly not gotten anywhere near the most out of their teams. So, though I have concerns about Kubiak that I've listed on previous threads, I don't want him to be fired because of one bad season. I still think the chances are better that this team will be successful with him than any scenario I've heard... especially since all of you guys seem to want to fire him regardless of who we can get to replace him and regardless of what upheaval may come along with the new coach.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
If it happens, it'll be fun to watch the sparks fly. His "Gee, gosh darnit.
My kids are battlin.'" act is wearing thin on the fanbase. He starts slow
for the third year in a row, and it's gonna be his ASS.
The flaw is that you are making an assumption that Kubiak is a good coach having a bad year when there is no real evidence that say that he is a good (above average) coach.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
We've been at or near 8-8 for three consecutive seasons now. The ONLY
things to change were the REASONS (EXCUSES) for the SAME RECORD.
How do you explain 5-7 to start week 14 for 3 consecutive years?
Same ****, different pile.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Well, IF Kubiak is the head coach next year, and IF he starts out slow again, rest assured, it will be his last year. McNair is patient, but not THAT patient. I'm sure of that.
I'm still firmly in the camp of wanting a new head coach next year, but only if he can get a good one, with experience. I'm not really sure I want another newbie head coach.
Hey, we could hire Dick Jauron! He's got experience as an NFL head coach and has about the same record as Kubiak over the time span of 2006-2008. 
I would be surprised if McNair lets Kubiak go after this season. I think he's most likely going to give him another year just to be certain of his decision. Half a decade should be long enough to ascertain judgment, yeah?
I would be surprised if McNair lets Kubiak go after this season. I think he's most likely going to give him another year just to be certain of his decision. Half a decade should be long enough to ascertain judgment, yeah?
Hey, we could hire Dick Jauron! He's got experience as an NFL head coach and has about the same record as Kubiak over the time span of 2006-2008.
I would be surprised if McNair lets Kubiak go after this season. I think he's most likely going to give him another year just to be certain of his decision. Half a decade should be long enough to ascertain judgment, yeah?
This is the sense that I get also and to a large extent the MAJOR argument that I have read is this and other threads as to why Kubiak should still be the coach: He might still be a good coach, so give him another chance and we hope everything comes together.
I know one thing people are not breaking their fingers to type all of the above average characteristics Kubes has a coach showing that he has earned another year.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
But Kubiak isn't a good coach. He hasn't won a SB or had a winning season like those guys. So while good coaches do have bad years, there is no proof that Kubiak is good coach. He is a consistently mediocre coach and has been consistently mediocre DESPITE having more talent and better units each year. That usually points to a flaw, like coaching. How is that not clear? There is no comparison
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houstonspartan
All Pro
Yep. I could get ugly next year if Kubiak comes back.
What I don't get is, this team can't handle pressure of expectations. If Kubiak comes back next year, do they know how much pressure they will be under? It's going to be insane. If Gary even blinks wrong the fans are going to kill him.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
No kidding. I thought it was a pretty simple request.
"What do you like about the guy? Why does he deserve to be here another year?"
So far, the straightest answers were by devil's advocates that don't even want him here.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
The recurring argument to keeping Kubiak here:
"Other playoff making, superbowl winning, multiple winning season
having coaches are struggling in '09."
My response to that grasp at straws:
"What has Kubiak done to earn a seat at the table those other
coaches are sitting?"
Please, Pro-Keep-Kubiak-In-Houstoners, address that point.
"Other playoff making, superbowl winning, multiple winning season
having coaches are struggling in '09."
My response to that grasp at straws:
"What has Kubiak done to earn a seat at the table those other
coaches are sitting?"
Please, Pro-Keep-Kubiak-In-Houstoners, address that point.
houstonspartan
All Pro
Well, to be fair, we could easily go back and look at some of your posts from a few weeks ago. You were pretty gung ho and specific about keeping him. Yes, I know you've seen the light. But you were pretty detailed in your defense of him.
As for the "other playoff making" coaches struggling this year argument, that's a strong reason to FIRE Kubiak. The AFC is really weak this year, and we could have easily taken over. Dynasties left and right are struggling (except for Indy), and we didn't do anything about it.
Unacceptable.
Joe Texan
Inducted 04
I will tell you Why Kubiak Thats Coach Kubiak to you soap droppers, is going to stay another year and then another year after that is because he has instilled confidence in Bob McNair that we are a play or two away from winning every game except the Jets Game. You Bone heads can yell and scream but it is deaf talk to the head office of the Texans. Go ahead and give up your tickets so there will be more room for me to move a real fan into your seats. We are a growing NFL franchise and we got it good in Houston. Jump Ship now and you might not catch a ladder to get back on later.
Fair Weather Fan and Couch Coach seem to fit pretty well. I will enjoy the blasts I get from this as I enjoy that kinda crap. Bring it on, cause you can flap those gums till they turn blue and no bit of it will change anything as far as the Texans Future. Texans Should Rally but they are to focused on leaving in the third quarter cause well cause they are Fair Weather just saying
Fair Weather Fan and Couch Coach seem to fit pretty well. I will enjoy the blasts I get from this as I enjoy that kinda crap. Bring it on, cause you can flap those gums till they turn blue and no bit of it will change anything as far as the Texans Future. Texans Should Rally but they are to focused on leaving in the third quarter cause well cause they are Fair Weather just saying
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Much better reading, with a Randy "Macho Man" Savage voice.
houstonspartan
All Pro
I cannot believe that a PSL holder with such great seats would write this. You should be FURIOUS. I've been a PSL holder for five years, and I am tired of this.
Even worse is that McNair raised ticket prices this year, in the middle of a damn recession.
Since you like to toss out random generalities about other people, let me toss one out at you: You come off as a fan that enjoys tailgaiting, but doesn't really care if we win or lose.
LonerATO
All Pro
I have said it before and I will say it again, those that drop their PSL's in protest or anger I will be the first to snatch those things up. Im not saying your going to drop them, but those that due will find another fan waiting to grab them.
houstonspartan
All Pro
Well, there are still a ton of PSL's that people are trying to dump, so go for it. You can go to Houstontexans.com and there's a list.
Warning: They are not cheap.
LonerATO
All Pro
http://texans.seasonticketrights.com/Permanent-Seat-Licenses/16992/Listing-Details-Marketplace.aspx
This one isnt that bad at all
houstonspartan
All Pro
Surprisingly, it's not. The owner must be desperate to dump the seat, since he's not charging for his PSL fee. That seat has like a $1,800 PSL fee. I wonder if that's a bad seat or something.
You should go for it. It's pretty cheap.
And, as you can see, the list of PSL's available is LOOOOONNNGGGG. And it could get longer in a couple of months. And, these these are prime seats that bring in revenue.
McNair should be afraid. Very afraid.
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Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I have no baseline, but that is a surprisingly long list upon first glance.
I'm pretty sure, too. Considering it would be the last year of Kubiak's contract.
Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I can't see McNair allowing Kubiak to coach the Texans on a lame duck contract. It's almost never done in the NFL. If someone could point out when the last time a NFL coach played out his contract, I would like to know what the results were.
One thing is for certain: It would be difficult to bring in any new assistants, when they know Kubiak is in his last season. So, McNair had better hope none of his assistants decide to retire (like Alex Gibbs) or move on to other club (like baby Shanny following his dad somewhere). It would also be difficult to sign a top free agent, when the coaching situation is unstabilized.
Speaking of lame, what about Mike Tomlin being brought into this conversation? Tomlin has won a Super Bowl. Tomlin is having one bad season, in 3 years. That bad season is a typical Gary Kubiak season. Let's try to stay rational and on topic.
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Wade Phillips is in the last year of three year contract, although it does have a club option for year 4. Of courese, Phillips has less power over his team than and coach in the league as the Owner/GM/ de facto head coach jerry jones is around.
houstonspartan
All Pro
Agree with all of this. The more I think about it, the more I just can't see McNair bringing him back. It just makes no sense at all.
Bringing the Steelers/Tomlin into this conversations is dumb. I was just talking with someone about this last night. Steelers fans have high standards, but they're going to give Tomlin a break. The man won them a Super Bowl, for pete's sakes. He gets a pass.
Kubiak, on the other hand...
eriadoc
Texan-American
OK, Mr. Random Capitalization Guy, tell me when I missed the fair weather.
Scooter
Funky
instant offense - i find it extremely difficult to believe many coaches could come in and get as much or more from our players without spending so much that it'd strangle other areas. even with kubiak we need 2 interior offensive linemen, a runningback (gerhart?), an upgrade at starting receiver (shipley?), and without kubiak coaching up orlovsky the next couple of years we'd need to sign or draft another quarterback. is another coach going to get a top 5 offense from this group even if everybody's healthy?
improvement - in every area but the one that matters (wins). talent, defense, and staff have improved each season. the defense has taken a huge step in several areas. many are calling for gibbs to call it quits, and we've got matthews ready to take over. bush in his first year has worked well, and lil shanahan is only going to improve.
youth - every team in the nfl talks about building through the draft, and kubiak's done exactly that. it may get him fired, but texans fans should be greatful our baseline mirrors the steelers or patriots of a decade (or more) ago as opposed to throwing money at possibilities like the redskins. if we're going to build exclusively through the draft and young free agents, we WILL be inconsistant. it beats the heck out of putting all of our eggs in sharper and glenn and coleman and payne and wade and (and and and) hoping to win with a very small window of opportunity.
building from the inside out - sure not all has worked as intended but it isnt for a lack of effort. kubiak's drafted spencer, winston, brown, caldwell, mario, okoye, and barwin as first day picks (missing two seconds in the last 3 seasons). we've also gone after hopeful or focused pieces such as studdard, okam, weaver, smith, robinson, cody, and an excess of walk-ons - many currently playing key roles. by conventional wisdom, kubiak's doing it exactly right and will see those fruits in the near future.
potential - similar to the draft, this is an area that could be the end of kubiak's tenure. many, if not most, of our draft picks and signings are based on what they'll do 2 to 5 years down the road. so many of our players, even the perceived busts, still have so much time to boom before they even mature. altering that progression could be detrimental and possibly disastrous when staying the course with coaches who know these guys is more likely to get better results.
developement - not perfect, but if we're going to expect the youngest starting lineup in the nfl to be in the playoffs, we cant ignore how they got to that position. some progress, some regress, some are going through both (as with all teams), but under kubiak we've seen a lot more of the former. mario, demeco, slaton, schaub, daniels, cushing, and pollard have all had probowl calibre seasons under kubiak with schaub being the old man at 28. with our offensive success, brown will also be mentioned before long.
competitiveness - outside of the jets, there hasnt been a game this season that we werent there to win. we didnt go in unprepared or unmotivated (see steelers), and whether up against indy or down against arizona the texans have given what they have. as with every cliche in football, we've been one break away from having secured a playoff spot at this point. we're SO dang close SO dang often - a couple more players can push us over that hill, a new coaching staff could go either direction.
consistancy - bob mcnair's great flaw. we need time to gel. we need to execute. UGH! yeah i think i'm bleeding out of the ears just writing that but it doesnt take away their truths. our offensive line stayed healthy last season and propelled slaton to what should've been a probowl birth, the runaway #1 receiver in the league, and a top 5 offense. that kind of cohesiveness, especially in a growing organization that is on a forward path (unlike capers' aging and declining path), will continue to build upon itsself. studdard and white and caldwell and barwin and pollard and cushing and quinn and jacoby are getting their first real reps this season - their familiarity next season whether as backups or starters will greatly improve our abilities along with kubiak and his staff's ability to adjust with them.
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houstonspartan
All Pro
Sorry, but I have to toss a cup of bullshit juice all over your long post.
You use a lot of words that this regime is used to using - potential, youth, etc - but you forgot about one thing: Wins.
Sorry, but four years is enough time.
Next.
Scooter
Funky
of course wins is the end all statistic ... but that wasnt the question asked was it? my excessively long post is why i think continuing with kubiak will achieve those results - especially given many of the alternatives being thrown around. my stance is that keeping the course will see something of a dynasty in the near future as our "potential, youth, etc" reach their primes because of our direction under kubiak.
Grams
Veteran
I have been a Texan fan from the beginning. While I cannot breakdown plays and tell anyone who was out of position and why, I do watch every game.
I have been watching football for more years than the majority of posted here have been alive. (I started watching NFL football when YA Tittle was the QB of the Giants - that was a long time ago.)
What I have seen from the Texans is an improvement every year. Each year under Kubiak we get better, more competitive.
This year we are just so close to being a very good football team. We are not getting blow out, we come prepared, we make adjustments (most of the time), and we are inches away from winning games. I know that is very frustrating to a long of fans. But it is better than where we have been. Some of you who were fans of the Oilers - this seems like forever.
In this day of instant gratification (there is a 60 sec answer to everything and I want it and I want it now syndrome) it is hard to understand that some things take time to build correctly. You can build it fast but it will not last as long as something built the right way. Patience is a virtue that most fans do not have.
While I am not a "pink soaper" or a "one more yearer", I understand both sides of the debate. (Where did pink come in for soap for the NFL?) Would we be better of with a new coach or keeping the one we have? No one actually knows. There is no guarantee that any other coach will do a better job than the one we already have.
We are so close right now. It just seems we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Is that piece, the age of the team, the coaches, the losing mentality, the maturity, a player on the OL, a secondary player, a RB? None of us knows, we can ony speculate what the problem is.
We can't have everything immediately. Good things come to those who wait and build one piece at a time. We are getting there.
I have been watching football for more years than the majority of posted here have been alive. (I started watching NFL football when YA Tittle was the QB of the Giants - that was a long time ago.)
What I have seen from the Texans is an improvement every year. Each year under Kubiak we get better, more competitive.
This year we are just so close to being a very good football team. We are not getting blow out, we come prepared, we make adjustments (most of the time), and we are inches away from winning games. I know that is very frustrating to a long of fans. But it is better than where we have been. Some of you who were fans of the Oilers - this seems like forever.
In this day of instant gratification (there is a 60 sec answer to everything and I want it and I want it now syndrome) it is hard to understand that some things take time to build correctly. You can build it fast but it will not last as long as something built the right way. Patience is a virtue that most fans do not have.
While I am not a "pink soaper" or a "one more yearer", I understand both sides of the debate. (Where did pink come in for soap for the NFL?) Would we be better of with a new coach or keeping the one we have? No one actually knows. There is no guarantee that any other coach will do a better job than the one we already have.
We are so close right now. It just seems we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Is that piece, the age of the team, the coaches, the losing mentality, the maturity, a player on the OL, a secondary player, a RB? None of us knows, we can ony speculate what the problem is.
We can't have everything immediately. Good things come to those who wait and build one piece at a time. We are getting there.
Joe Texan
Inducted 04
beerlover
Hall of Fame
I'll be breif to the point, I think the hometown bias still swings my boat. I would hate to see him leave, go somewhere else then start winning these close games. Imagine the whining then, "oh how did we let him leave, we should never have let that happen", talk when he coaches another cities team to a Superbowl. no thanks
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
I'll be breif to the point, I think the hometown bias still swings my boat. I would hate to see him leave, go somewhere else then start winning these close games. Imagine the whining then, "oh how did we let him leave, we should never have let that happen", talk when he coaches another cities team to a Superbowl. no thanks
So... We give him 10 years till he gains enough talent to win in spite of his
decisions. Good. This really IS the Big 12!
Great Post Grams. Most people on here or too young or have forgot or just refuse to acknowledge the facts of the NFL. Do you remember the Oilers of '64-'74 that went a combined 49-102-5? Or the Oilers of '82-'86 that went 16-49?
Or how about the Saints that waited 13 years for their first non-losing season? And 21 years for their first winning season?
Or Tampa Bay that had 15 straight losing seasons from '82-'96?
Or the Cardinals that went from '85-'97 with only one .500 season ('94) in that span?
The instant gratification syndrome has totally spoiled many things...not least of all sports fans.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Smell it?
I'm not sure how 4 years equates to "instant gratification", but I do understand that 4 years is a long time period in the NFL. The average NFL career is less than 4 years. Most NFL player contracts are 4 years or less. A team has to be built in less than 4 years, or the players you are building around will be gone. That's just the reality that is the NFL. Great organizations realize this and constantly reload their talent. While winning.
Regarding the "improvement every year", well I don't see it. It is not indicated by the standings. Or the games. Whether a loss is by 30 or 3, it's a loss. I was much more impressed by the Texans 2007 8-8 record than anything Kubiak's teams have produced since. In 2007, the Texans battled major injuries to the QB and their All Pro WR, yet still played to a .500 record. Since then, the Texans have found ways to lose games versus good teams. No, they haven't been blown out as much as they were in the past. Yes, they seem very close to beating these teams. It's just that some of us feel the missing ingredient isn't a couple of players. It's the man coaching these players.
Not going to kill for this post. He at least has offered reasons that for the most are specific and not the generalizations "we don't know if another coach is better' or "you guys just being impatient" that have offered for the most part.