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Zach Wilson, QB, BYU
- Thread starter Texian
- Start date
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
If the Texans lose Watson, then they must focus on fixing the team versus running right into the next draft thinking their priority is another RD1 Franchise QB. Have they not learned by now that their penchant for grabbing a RD1 QB when there's no team around him has bit them in the arse twice now? Carr sunk and Watson has been swimming frantically. Spend the next couple of drafts building the team and quality depth so essentially most QB's could succeed. Darnold, Tua, and/or McCarron could probably enjoy success with the team that is prepared for a good QB.
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This at least a reasonable argument. Much better than baseless unnamed source slander from a third rate website.
And I agree with concerns about throwing another youngster to the wolves. It's clearly bad for business.
That's also why the haul absolutely has to be significant. I haven't even taken seriously any reports about teams interested in Deshaun other than NYJ and Miami. The draft capital can't be wasted. Also the salary cap casualties will have to cut deep. We need to clear as much room as possible to try and accelerate the turnaround with well vetted FA's that can contribute both on the field and during the week for the youngsters we're building with through the draft.
As for Wilson, saying you don't want to build from scratch around a rookie QB is completely fair imo. I though would personally hate to pass up a talent like his just to get back on the carousel again until we who knows when we find who knows who. And you don't have to play any new QB day 1, or even year 1. Get a solid stopgap while the roster is constructed for at least the first year with the initial draft haul and 1st wave of FA's. And if he's really ready year 2 we'll see what's up after another full draft and wave 2 of FA's coming off of whatever salary purge is left from year 1. Waiting a year didn't hurt the real Mahomes, no reason to think it'll hurt the Mormon one.
disclaimer - no, I don't think Wilson is the next Mahomes, that's flat out unfair. just a play on his silly nickname.
And I agree with concerns about throwing another youngster to the wolves. It's clearly bad for business.
That's also why the haul absolutely has to be significant. I haven't even taken seriously any reports about teams interested in Deshaun other than NYJ and Miami. The draft capital can't be wasted. Also the salary cap casualties will have to cut deep. We need to clear as much room as possible to try and accelerate the turnaround with well vetted FA's that can contribute both on the field and during the week for the youngsters we're building with through the draft.
As for Wilson, saying you don't want to build from scratch around a rookie QB is completely fair imo. I though would personally hate to pass up a talent like his just to get back on the carousel again until we who knows when we find who knows who. And you don't have to play any new QB day 1, or even year 1. Get a solid stopgap while the roster is constructed for at least the first year with the initial draft haul and 1st wave of FA's. And if he's really ready year 2 we'll see what's up after another full draft and wave 2 of FA's coming off of whatever salary purge is left from year 1. Waiting a year didn't hurt the real Mahomes, no reason to think it'll hurt the Mormon one.
disclaimer - no, I don't think Wilson is the next Mahomes, that's flat out unfair. just a play on his silly nickname.
Number19
Hall of Fame
The QB selection will come down to the style of offense that Cully will implement. There's a common theme that because Kelly has been retained, we will have an offense similar to 2020. But this is not certain. If Cully wants to move toward a more traditional Erhardt-Perkins offense then targeting Kyle Trask would allow us to trade down and would be a better fit more in the mold of Tom Brady. If the Texans intent is to go with the times and move toward a college style spread offense, then staying at 1.2 and selecting Wilson would be a better option.
Not sure why Culley would all of a sudden adopt a EP offense. But even if he did there's really nothing Trask has done to make him more ready for that than Wilson. Dan Mullen's offense is as college spread as it gets.
Trask is a bit taller I guess?
Trask is a bit taller I guess?
Number19
Hall of Fame
I thought the general consensus was that we didn't really know his coaching philosophy because he has never been a coordinator or headcoach. The value of Trask over Wilson, or any of the other "top 5", lies in the trading down to accumulate additional draft picks, and doing so without losing too much in athletic ability. You lose mobility and arm strength. But for the short pass and the intermediate pass, his profile is as good, or superior, to his competition. And although he lacks some in arm strength, he still throws the deep ball with touch. I can't re-find it, but I think I read he ranked, I want to say, number 3 in deep ball accuracy. The thing is, this draft is being compared to '83, when 6 QB's were taken in the 1st round. And remember, hall of fame QB Dan Marino was taken #6 that draft.
"...the most passing yards in the Country (as of mid-December) at 3,717, the most completions at 259, and the most touchdowns with 40. He has also only thrown 5 interceptions on 369 attempts. I would also like to point out that two of his interceptions that I saw were more due to play design than it being Trask’s fault...I don’t think the arm strength is that terribly lacking...Yet, even when he is making these throws (deep ball) if they make it far enough they are still placed well. He has great velocity on his short and intermediate throws and he does have enough arm to throw the deep ball...He has an uncanny ability to put the ball on the money while he is getting hit and his ability to stand tall on the pocket and take the hit will make up for his lack of mobility in the NFL... he was the most productive QB in college this year and has a lot of room to grow. He has enough talent now to give a high enough floor to be a safe pick for the Steelers but I think he still has room to grow as he learns more about the game...". https://stillcurtain.com/2020/12/16/3-reasons-steelers-select-kyle-trask/3/
"...the most passing yards in the Country (as of mid-December) at 3,717, the most completions at 259, and the most touchdowns with 40. He has also only thrown 5 interceptions on 369 attempts. I would also like to point out that two of his interceptions that I saw were more due to play design than it being Trask’s fault...I don’t think the arm strength is that terribly lacking...Yet, even when he is making these throws (deep ball) if they make it far enough they are still placed well. He has great velocity on his short and intermediate throws and he does have enough arm to throw the deep ball...He has an uncanny ability to put the ball on the money while he is getting hit and his ability to stand tall on the pocket and take the hit will make up for his lack of mobility in the NFL... he was the most productive QB in college this year and has a lot of room to grow. He has enough talent now to give a high enough floor to be a safe pick for the Steelers but I think he still has room to grow as he learns more about the game...". https://stillcurtain.com/2020/12/16/3-reasons-steelers-select-kyle-trask/3/
We know he's (Culley) never been involved with an EP system in his life. And we've heard a former player of his say that he'd bet we'll see something in the vein of Andy Reid going back to his KC/Philly days. I'll take those things over whatever internet general consensus there may or may not be.
And if you think Wilson and Trask have comparable arm talent then I don't have a clue what you've watched of one or both of these guys. Trask has a decent arm.. but he's got poise, he's a gamer, and he's plus from the neck up. He's also gonna need to have great protection, a great playcaller, and good to great weapons, no different than all of what he had at UF. Wilson has magnificent arm talent, can throw from any angle imaginable including from on the run, throws with excellent anticipation, has plus but not crazy athleticism, also a gamer, and will make his offensive line and skill players better and can play in just about whatever system.
Agreed about wanting to cash in on the most picks as possible. Nothing really wrong with that philosophy. I'd just rather take the special talent at the most pivotal position.
And if you think Wilson and Trask have comparable arm talent then I don't have a clue what you've watched of one or both of these guys. Trask has a decent arm.. but he's got poise, he's a gamer, and he's plus from the neck up. He's also gonna need to have great protection, a great playcaller, and good to great weapons, no different than all of what he had at UF. Wilson has magnificent arm talent, can throw from any angle imaginable including from on the run, throws with excellent anticipation, has plus but not crazy athleticism, also a gamer, and will make his offensive line and skill players better and can play in just about whatever system.
Agreed about wanting to cash in on the most picks as possible. Nothing really wrong with that philosophy. I'd just rather take the special talent at the most pivotal position.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I know I'm not in the draft a QB in the 2021 NFL Draft camp.....my reasoning, the Texans aren't a QB1 away from being special. The Texans are a solid 20-25 players away from being special. A QB at this juncture is just lining the guy up to take a beating for a couple of seasons and hoping he becomes more like Watson afterwards and not a hit shy Carr. Every season the NFL Draft will feature a QB or 2 or 3 that will be presented as a can't miss prospects, so I'd like to focus on building the team first and those other 20 positions of need. Texans are a strong 0 for 2 on drafting a QB first with no supporting cast......can't do it the a third time and look intelligent.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I definitely understand your point of view and agree to a certain extent. However if the most important position on the team is available when you pick or if you can get that pic within reason I want to get it sooner rather than later. I would have no problem for example drafting one of the top two QBs and have them sit on the bench for a season. Having said that with the haul I think we can get for Deshaun we can upgrade the offensive line, receivers and bring in one or two good running backs. TL or Wilson should be able to play with it.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
How can you tell whether a guy is a "first in, last out gym rat" from watching videos on YouTube?
It's interesting that people here praise his footwork when his footwork is the one criticism that appears to be consistent across his evaluations. I've never seen Wilson play in real-time, so I can't make a judgment about him either way. I will say that I'm generally skeptical of highly touted QBs who have not played against high quality competition.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
And it was this the type of thinking/analysis that led to Mitch Trubisky being drafted ahead of Patrick Mahomes and Deshaun Watson.
Zach Wilson could be the next Tom Brady for all I know. But there's always some QB (usually White) that gets "projected out" to be the next Brees/Manning/Brady. And it always seems to be this dark horse who few people have actually seen play and who's largely been outside of the national conversation. Trubisky fit that profile to a tee, which is why the "experts" decided to place him ahead of Mahomes and Watson in nearly every single mock draft.
In a way, it almost seems to be benefit a QB by playing in a conference/division that doesn't get much national viewership. A lot of people are down on Fields after the NC game, but that's only because we actually got to see him on a national stage against the very best competition in the country. Does Wilson play any better than Fields did? I doubt it. Before elevating Wilson over Fields, I think we need to account for the fact that one is playing back to back games against Clemson and Alabama (and was injured against the latter) while the other is playing back to back games against North Alabama and Coastal Carolina.
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Texian
Hall of Fame
In addition to watching his game tapes I watched several interviews with Zach and people who are close and know Wilson well. They said he was a "first in, last out gym rat". From my review of his game tapes, his footwork is quick, he sets up well and his weight distribution is spot on. He looks well coached. His footwork is why he has such high degree of accuracy. The last couple of summers he has spent in California working with QB gurus has paid off.
BTW I am now seeing mocks where Trey lance has moved ahead of Fields.
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Agreed, but if there's a QB they really like they should draft him and let him sit for a yr. The difference and I know some will disagree is that the OL has much more talent than when Carr/DW4 were drafted.
I mean DW4 set career records with this supporting cast.
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Texian
Hall of Fame
I base my opinions on data not skin color. The reason I'm not real high on Fields is because of his transfer from Georgia. Usually a transfer (not a graduation transfer) is indication of some kind of character/personality flaw. More importantly is Fields performances in the Indiana, Northwestern and Alabama games is what downgraded Fields for me.
Texian
Hall of Fame
AND you can get a GREAT QB in RD 1 and some very good OL in RD 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. There is little chance you will get a great QB in RD6. There are alot more 3,4,5,6 th RD OL starting in the NFL today than there are QBs.
QFT, if you dont think Fields is the greatest you're a racist. BTW, we see this the exact same way.
BTW, the reason I've got Wilson rated higher than Fields is that 1. Steve Young thinks he's going to be a star. 2. He has a great arm, much like Mahomes but not quite as good and very good accuracy and anticipation too.
What I find funny is his racist statement about Mahomes and his draft prospects. Most didn't like him because they, like me dont think that the Leach or for that matter Clemson offense translates to the NFL well enough to win a championship. (It's why I'm not as high on Lawrence as everybody else is) But hey, if you disagree with a racist then you must be a racist.
BTW, If you go back and check the mock draft Corrosion and I had Mahomes as our QB1 by the time the draft rolled around. You can find some early mocks where I had him going in rd 2, but that was a value pick. Reasoning was very few have ever had Mahomes arm and growing up in clubhouses he knew what it took to work to be the best he could be. (Yankees)
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Racist post of the day.
God I will be so glad when DW4's traded. I cant wait for your reaction. It should be pure solid gold comedy.
BTW, I'm also glad all of the Clemson trash will be gone soon enough. Good riddance
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Great defensive players are also in that RD1 group and this is also an area of severe concern for the Texans.
I have mentioned in the past that I thought the Texans had talent on the OL but their failure was due to piss-poor scheme and OL coaching. They have cut those issues and brought in a new group with what is hopefully a better offensive philosophy and coaching. If the ZBS is the blocking scheme.....then I have to say that the OL may be better suited for success. I'd still draft a Center as I have lost all faith in Martin. Give Martin his release as well. Texans also need an OG or RT if they decide to bump Howard inside. A couple of decent picks for this group could get them right on track. How this gets approached is solely up to the Texans and Watson.....are they trading him or are they keeping him?
Why the Yankees?
Mahomes grew up in the Yankees clubhouse around A-rod/Jeter/Clemens/Petite etc... Winners and I thought it would rub off on him.
I don't get when he would've spent a lot of time growing up in a NYY clubhouse though..
His dad was a pitcher for the NYY and Mahomes spoke about this in an interview I've read. Can't remember where.
If 2 athletes are close then you should always go with the legacy guy. Atleast that is always the way I've looked at things.
His dad never pitched for the Yankees.
Could have sworn I read something about the NYY. Guess it was the Mets.
He did play 2 seasons with the Mets..
Here's the youngster Mahomes shagging flyballs with Mike Hampton..
..how old do you feel now?
Texian
Hall of Fame
(BACK TO ZACH WILSON)
It really is a no brainer that if you trade DW4 and you can draft Zach Wilson, YOU DO IT! No questions asked.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I didn't know a white guy could be racist against another, um, white guy. Okay.
The reality is that White QBs are often perceived differently than Black ones. If pointing that out makes me racist, okay.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I didn't say you based any of your opinions on skin color. I am as White bread as it gets, BTW. I think it's interesting that the mere mention of race triggers some people when it was a general observation rather than a critique of someone's personal opinions.
Fields transferred because Kirby Smart is not so smart. Smart stuck with Fromm (stupid) so Fields left. It had nothing to do with his character/personality and everything to do with the fact he didn't want to ride the bench for 2 years.
Every man is entitled to his own opinion, but I don't see Fields any differently since this season was kind of a wash for the B1G playing only 8 games and all. Nearly a third of the team was out with COVID against NW. I'm definitely not going to hold the Alabama game against him since that was one of the most talented CFB teams in the last 10-20 years. Besides, he played really well against Clemson, even after taking a shot in the spine from Skalski.
But this makes me curious: Do you also downgrade Wilson for his poor performance against Coastal Carolina? He was 19/30 with 1 TD and 1 INT in a loss. I would think an abysmal performance against a non P5 team would have to count for at least 5-6 mediocre performances against Top 20 teams.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson's sons grew up around winners too. We saw how that turned out.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Sure. But who at BYU would you expect to say that he's lazy, entitled and the last one in, first one out? You're going to hear good things about nearly any QB from the people who "know him well." That's kind of the way this goes.
Also, you don't have to look very hard to find the critique about his footwork. I'm not saying these critiques are accurate since I didn't watch BYU this season. I am saying, however, that there's quite a bit of tape out there where he displays poor footwork.
QB Breakdown: Zach Wilson - Part 1: Fundamentals and Fit with Kyle Shanahan
Looking at the BYU QB - the last BYU QB that played for the 49ers was pretty good. Is Wilson next up?
fortheniners.substack.com
You also see it come up in college football subreddits.
A racist is a racist, doesn't matter about the color of his skin.
I'm certainly not going to change your mind.
Sure. But who at BYU would you expect to say that he's lazy, entitled and the last one in, first one out? You're going to hear good things about nearly any QB from the people who "know him well." That's kind of the way this goes.
Also, you don't have to look very hard to find the critique about his footwork. I'm not saying these critiques are accurate since I didn't watch BYU this season. I am saying, however, that there's quite a bit of tape out there where he displays poor footwork.
QB Breakdown: Zach Wilson - Part 1: Fundamentals and Fit with Kyle Shanahan
Looking at the BYU QB - the last BYU QB that played for the 49ers was pretty good. Is Wilson next up?
You also see it come up in college football subreddits.
View attachment 7945
So you're equating Wilson to Bortles?
Bortles doen't have near the arm that Wilson has. The fact that Wilson has some poor footwork doesn't bother me because he's got the arm to make up for it and good accuracy despite the poor footwork.
Gues who they had this knock on coming out of college? Mahomes
You can work on your footwork and improve his accuracy even more and his accuracy right now is quite good. You cant teach that kind of arm strength though.
On another note, how did your guy look at his workout today?
Texian
Hall of Fame
Clearly you've an unprofessed love for Fields, I do not. I'm not trying to change your mind and you're NOT changing mine. So you can stop. I will admit Wilson is not perfect and will from time to time make a few no nos. Even your 49er fan was much more effusive in his praise of Wilson than he was about his mental lapses. PFF says Wilson tight window throws is off the charts. No QB in PFF history has tested as well as Wilson in this category. PFF also says that Wilson's accuracy is also the best of this QB class. Your OVERALL foot work must be pretty good to lead in those categories.Sure. But who at BYU would you expect to say that he's lazy, entitled and the last one in, first one out? You're going to hear good things about nearly any QB from the people who "know him well." That's kind of the way this goes.
Also, you don't have to look very hard to find the critique about his footwork. I'm not saying these critiques are accurate since I didn't watch BYU this season. I am saying, however, that there's quite a bit of tape out there where he displays poor footwork.
QB Breakdown: Zach Wilson - Part 1: Fundamentals and Fit with Kyle Shanahan
Looking at the BYU QB - the last BYU QB that played for the 49ers was pretty good. Is Wilson next up?
You also see it come up in college football subreddits.
View attachment 7945
Other areas I was impressed from watching game tapes is Wilson's anticipation. He throws to his receiver before he makes his break, better than any QB in this class except maybe Lawrence. Wilson's back shoulder throw is a thing of beauty and is ready for Sundays. Wilson also can see the field and does a great job of looking off safeties. Wilson is definitely not locked on to one WR.
Fields played in a 1 look system so he does not show those capabilities. Maybe he can do it but the jury is still out. I didn't see Fields throw with any anticipation. For the most part it was drop back, find your WR, if covered go to your check down or run.
So I think we are done here. You are a Fields guy, I'm Wilson guy UNLESS somehow someway Lawrence is available. Starting to see some mocks with Trey Lance and Mac Jones moving ahead of Fields.
Fields play
Texian
Hall of Fame
2021 PFF NFL Draft Guide:
"Wilson's arm is special. He made more NFL throws weekly than any other quarterback in the class"
"Uncoachable off-platform arm talent. Doesn't need his feet set to deliver strikes"
"Pinpoint to every level of the field. Ranked in the top five in off-target rate this season."
"Flick release. No wasted movement or windup to get the ball out quickly."
"Houdini in the pocket. Can get himself out of tight quarters under pressure."
"Wilson's arm is special. He made more NFL throws weekly than any other quarterback in the class"
"Uncoachable off-platform arm talent. Doesn't need his feet set to deliver strikes"
"Pinpoint to every level of the field. Ranked in the top five in off-target rate this season."
"Flick release. No wasted movement or windup to get the ball out quickly."
"Houdini in the pocket. Can get himself out of tight quarters under pressure."
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Do you believe he's in "anywhere but Houston" mode? It would be great if he is. But I think he's in "what's best for me" mode. Which is the reason he has the NTC to begin with.
I just think you guys should start thinking up scenarios that does not include a top 10 pick.
He’s going to the Steelers with JJ.
I believe he needs to consider 'I don't want to lose $25M dollars' mode..
He should maybe consider thinking up scenarios where both sides can find a compromise..
Texian
Hall of Fame
I think if the Texans presented DW4 with a trade opportunity with the New York Jets and a take it or leave it option. DW4 would take it.
I believe DW4 is in a "get me out of Houston" mode.
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I hope you're right. But the way things have been going I can't see the Texans being so fortunate.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Oh I think there is a high probability of this happening. Only there is a higher probability of Caserio/Texans screwing it up.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
First of all, I hate Ohio State and all Ohio State players. The only team I hate more than Ohio State is South Carolina. So no, I do not have some unprofessed love for Justin Fields. I didn't even mention Fields in the post you responded to. That's just more evidence of some of you guys reading stuff into posts that's not even there.
Wilson could be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I honestly don't care. I just questioned your evaluation process, particularly the fact that Fields went down in your book because of Alabama and Northwestern, but Wilson didn't go down in your book even after that disaster of a game against Coastal Carolina. It makes absolutely no sense to criticize a guy for not playing well against a defense that will have multiple guys drafted in the 1st Round and then give another guy a pass when playing poorly against a defense composed of 1 and 2 star players.
But if that's your guy, hopefully the Texans will draft him. It's not like the experts and even this forum have been dead wrong about draft projections before. /s
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
That's not saying a whole lot.
This is the second statement you've made that shows you don't really watch or pay attention to college football. The first was about Fields transferring out of Georgia. The bolded statement above is the second. Lawrence does NOT throw with anticipation. If you actually watched Clemson games instead of skimming 6 minute highlight videos, you would know this. Lawrence will wait, wait, wait, wait and wait some more for a receiver to get separation. I think you assume he just throws with anticipation because you probably read it online somewhere, but this isn't really true.
If you think Lawrence throws with anticipation, it makes me question your evaluation of the other QBs in this class.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Well, the Texans will get to face off against Urban Meyer and a Clemson QB at least twice per year for the foreseeable future. So we'll see. Should be fun.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
If Wilson is as good as Texian says he is, why would the Jets ever trade away their pick?
Hell, if Wilson is THAT good, and you deal Watson for him NO QUESTION, you might as well go all in to make a deal with Jacksonville to get Lawrence. Why settle for 1b if you can get 1a?
He should be perfect for Meyers offense for a couple of yrs until he gets hurt. I would take what he does against the Texans defense grain a grain of snow/salt I mean. LOL
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Texian
Hall of Fame
BYU coach talks up Zach Wilson as an NFL franchise quarterback - ProFootballTalk (nbcsports.com)
“On a football field, he’s a guy that could easily be a coach right now,” Sitake said. “You want a guy to be highly competitive, but not a lot of people are willing to sacrifice and put in the time to prepare like he is. Imagine a player who loves the game of football and when I’m working late nights, he’s here as well. And then when I’m watching film, he’ll come in and watch film with the coaching staff and hang out. He lives for ball, that’s what he does, and he’s a great student of the game, and his work ethic’s unbelievable, and his teammates love him.”
“On a football field, he’s a guy that could easily be a coach right now,” Sitake said. “You want a guy to be highly competitive, but not a lot of people are willing to sacrifice and put in the time to prepare like he is. Imagine a player who loves the game of football and when I’m working late nights, he’s here as well. And then when I’m watching film, he’ll come in and watch film with the coaching staff and hang out. He lives for ball, that’s what he does, and he’s a great student of the game, and his work ethic’s unbelievable, and his teammates love him.”