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Welcome to the Texans, OT Laremy Tunsil.

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
So, I quickly went through the play-by-play of the first 3 games.
I noted 4 false starts (by any lineman), and 2 resulted in a punt.

One was converted, but just barely.

Another one was converted near the opponent goal line.
It was a TD, luckily.
But here we see how a false start can alter the play call near the goal line.
And if we didn't convert it, we would have to settle for a FG.
see if you notice the "drive killers/point removing penalties" .. not being focused and jumping off is one thing. Doing it on 3rd down, the red zone or in G2G situations is a cardinal sin for an OL, especially one who's supposed to be the best in the business.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Of course I was upset as I was with tunsil. I do see protecting the quarterback as being a higher priority than getting to the quarterback so Tunsil's offsides not as great as Clowney's.
Clowney's offsides would have to be considered much more self-controllable/avoidable in that his moves were purely actively "proactive." Tunsil's movement would be considered situationally "reactive" to his D counterpart.
 
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76Texan

Hall of Fame
see if you notice the "drive killers/point removing penalties" .. not being focused and jumping off is one thing. Doing it on 3rd down, the red zone or in G2G situations is a cardinal sin for an OL, especially one who's supposed to be the best in the business.
Panthers.
2nd qtr 8:11
3rd and 5 @CAR 15
FALSE START, Tunsil.

3rd and 10
DW4 scramble for 1

Texans settled for a FG.
.....

3rd Qtr 4:24
2 and 5 @ HOU 10
False Start Tunsil.
2 incomplete passes to Coutee.
Punt.

Texans lost 10-16

So yeah, the 2 False Starts definitely hurt.

A TD in the second Qtr would make it 14-16.

The Texans can go for a FG to win the game instead of having to shoot for a TD.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Texans 23-30 vs Colts week 7

2nd Qtr 11:09
2nd and 9 @ Colts 14
Tunsil - False Start

2nd and 9 @ Colts 19
Watson sacked for -6
Fells stepped on the RT's foot, causing him to fall backward.

3rd and 18 @ Colts 25
left end for 12 yards (tackle by Denico Autry). Deshaun Watson fumbles (forced by Denico Autry), recovered by Deshaun Watson at IND-31. Penalty on Max Scharping: Offensive Holding, 10 yards (no play)
Sharping got beat like a rag doll. The defender had a hand on the ball, causing it to slip out of Watson's hand and onto the ground.
Luckily, it bounced right back into his hand.

3rd and 31 @ Colts 35
Duke Johnson up the middle for 6 yards (tackle by Darius Leonard)

Ka'imi Fairbairn 47 yard field goal good

The Texans avoided disaster there twice.

.................

6:47 2nd qtr
3 4 CLT 4 Deshaun Watson sacked by Justin Houston for -9 yards
RT 63 got beat just a hair before Tunsil, who allowed Houston to come inside (not around the backside).
The "in-the-grasp" sack negated the TD pass to Hopkins.
Texans settled for a FG

.......

3:23 4th qtr
3 7 HTX 7 Deshaun Watson sacked by Justin Houston for -2 yards
The blitzing DB (Pascal) lined up outside of Tunsil, uncovered.
He came in free.
I don't know what the blocking assignment was supposed to be, but it would make sense for Tunsil to slide off his man (J Houston) to pick up the blitzer and let the LG handle the RDE J.Houston.

At any rate, Tunsil didn't keep engaging Houston.
DW4 scrambled up and out of the pocket and was coralled by JH.

Tunsil needs to play until the whistle blows.
DW4 had the chance to either dumping the ball of to the TE or run it himself there.

Texans took a safety.

..................................


4 1:41 1 10 HTX 36
Deshaun Watson pass complete short left to Jordan Akins for 6 yards (tackle by Quincy Wilson)

4 1:19 2 4 HTX 42 Penalty on Laremy Tunsil: False Start, 5 yards (no play)
This penalty caused a 10-sec run-off of the clock.
Yeah, not the way to make life easier for your QB, Tunsil.

4 1:05 2 9 HTX 37 Deshaun Watson pass incomplete short left intended for Duke Johnson

4 0:59 3 9 HTX 37 Deshaun Watson pass complete short middle to Jordan Akins for 11 yards (tackle by Darius Leonard)

4 0:37 1 10 HTX 48 Deshaun Watson pass deep middle intended for Keke Coutee is intercepted by Darius Leonard at IND-32 and returned for no gain.
Coutee bobbled the ball twice.

Game Over
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Panthers.
2nd qtr 8:11
3rd and 5 @CAR 15
FALSE START, Tunsil.

3rd and 10
DW4 scramble for 1

Texans settled for a FG.
.....

3rd Qtr 4:24
2 and 5 @ HOU 10
False Start Tunsil.
2 incomplete passes to Coutee.
Punt.

Texans lost 10-16

So yeah, the 2 False Starts definitely hurt.

A TD in the second Qtr would make it 14-16.

The Texans can go for a FG to win the game instead of having to shoot for a TD.
To conclude that isolating those 2 false starts were a main or even the significant factor in a 10-16 loss is ludicrous.

Of course, Watson's 180 yd passing game with no passing TDs, 1 rushing TD, 6 sacks (at least 2 of which were on Watson), and lost fumble in the 4th Q around the Houston 40 yd line couldn't have had anything to do with the loss.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
To conclude that isolating those 2 false starts were a main or even the significant factor in a 10-16 loss is ludicrous.

Of course, Watson's 180 yd passing game with no passing TDs, 1 rushing TD, 6 sacks (at least 2 of which were on Watson), and lost fumble in the 4th Q around the Houston 40 yd line couldn't have had anything to do with the loss.
"So yeah, the 2 False Starts definitely hurt."
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
To conclude that isolating those 2 false starts were a main or even the significant factor in a 10-16 loss is ludicrous.

Of course, Watson's 180 yd passing game with no passing TDs, 1 rushing TD, 6 sacks (at least 2 of which were on Watson), and lost fumble in the 4th Q around the Houston 40 yd line couldn't have had anything to do with the loss.
This one hurt, too.


3rd Qtr 13:19
Tunsil allowed his man to go inside, cutting off Watson space up the pocket.
That could have been a TD, or at least a very long gain there.
Sure, there were other issues, too.
But, the LT has got to keep the throwing lane open for his QB.
That is his job.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Its such an ironic twist how Tunsil is beloved even with all the warts, and Deshaun has narratives invented and typical young QB erratics magnified and thrust to the forefront as the main culprit of an inefficient pass offense and the genesis of all the sacks. SMH.

ONLY HERE mind you. Most national pubs and data factories understand the horrible offense that Watson is tasked with running and his metrics are great considering all the background noise.

but yeah .. "Dur Watson helds unto de ballz two long"

edit: remember all the grief Clowney would get for jumping offsides??? Jumping offsides 14 times by Tunsil would even make JD blush!!

 
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Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Its such an ironic twist how Tunsil is beloved even with all the warts, and Deshaun has narratives invented and typical young QB erratics magnified and thrust to the forefront as the main culprit of an inefficient pass offense and the genesis of all the sacks. SMH.

ONLY HERE mind you. Most national pubs and data factories understand the horrible offense that Watson is tasked with running and his metrics are great considering all the background noise.

but yeah .. "Dur Watson helds unto de ballz two long"
Hey he also runs into his sacks like no other.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Rico I understand Watson has a lot to improve on. But I'm like ," Come on man.!" Tell the complete story.
Sure he does .. mainly just maturing as a professional NFL QB. What has been the main gripe? "he holds the ball too long" .. "he has a good offensive line now he shouldnt be skittish" .. "guys are open all over the field, he's too stupid to see them" .. and on and on AD NAUSEUM. Its so hard for me to understand; as a diehard myself; that Texans Talk is what pops up when a Texan fan wants to find a place to talk about their team it was that way for me and many of us I would presume (excluding the SUPER BLUE BLOOD OGs from the old board). Then they come here to find factions of polar opposites when it comes to the discussions. How did it get there? Convenient "mistruths.

How many times has there been enormous amounts of data and supporting evidence to counter what some are saying are his glaring issues and why we cant win with Watson? When it comes time for the rebuttal, you know like in a normal adult discussion/debate, time to educate ME, help ME see it your way what happens? (nobody changes minds on the internet, but people can still use it as a learning tool) Then its Rick Smiths fault! LOL .. THEN its because the core players arent good enough from a regime 7 years ago and we have to purge ALL of those players AND the executives from that regime in order to THEN be ready to REALLY win with this team. LMAO.

I dont have a problem whatsoever with opinion - I welcome different thoughts and views its how innovation works, but I cant stand when someone; through a petty tantrum or personal hatred for a guy; will go to great lengths to discredit anything and everything he does!! Its crazy. I cant reference your context specifically leading to this post because I just will not click on ignored content anymore to spare me the disinformation and "reporting vendetta" to my horribly insulting posts to some - so If im not completely in line with where you were going with it MY BAD!

For example I ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY dislike Bill OBrien with a passion. Cant stand the man. With that said, I cant make up blatant lies about him in order to support my hate right? So I'll bring up the crazy mismanaged games, horrible human interactions with fans, crappy way he's treated players, bad personnel decisions etc.. all truths - to help others hold this guy accountable, but then whats the response? "Well Bill OBrien is only making the mistakes all the other HC's make"

LOL - and on and on goes the hamster wheel.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
see if you notice the "drive killers/point removing penalties" .. not being focused and jumping off is one thing. Doing it on 3rd down, the red zone or in G2G situations is a cardinal sin for an OL, especially one who's supposed to be the best in the business.
Agreed,

One of the best

But it happens to the best of them.

DW4 making checks at the LOS (Not a knock on DW4, he's supposed to be doing this, it's a big part of the offense) is a big part of the problem. OL having to stay in there stance longer than usual quite often.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
This one hurt, too.


3rd Qtr 13:19
Tunsil allowed his man to go inside, cutting off Watson space up the pocket.
That could have been a TD, or at least a very long gain there.
Sure, there were other issues, too.
But, the LT has got to keep the throwing lane open for his QB.
That is his job.
There was a play to be made there that didn't get made.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Sure he does .. mainly just maturing as a professional NFL QB. What has been the main gripe? "he holds the ball too long" .. "he has a good offensive line now he shouldnt be skittish" .. "guys are open all over the field, he's too stupid to see them" .. and on and on AD NAUSEUM. Its so hard for me to understand; as a diehard myself; that Texans Talk is what pops up when a Texan fan wants to find a place to talk about their team it was that way for me and many of us I would presume (excluding the SUPER BLUE BLOOD OGs from the old board). Then they come here to find factions of polar opposites when it comes to the discussions. How did it get there? Convenient "mistruths.

How many times has there been enormous amounts of data and supporting evidence to counter what some are saying are his glaring issues and why we cant win with Watson? When it comes time for the rebuttal, you know like in a normal adult discussion/debate, time to educate ME, help ME see it your way what happens? (nobody changes minds on the internet, but people can still use it as a learning tool) Then its Rick Smiths fault! LOL .. THEN its because the core players arent good enough from a regime 7 years ago and we have to purge ALL of those players AND the executives from that regime in order to THEN be ready to REALLY win with this team. LMAO.

I dont have a problem whatsoever with opinion - I welcome different thoughts and views its how innovation works, but I cant stand when someone; through a petty tantrum or personal hatred for a guy; will go to great lengths to discredit anything and everything he does!! Its crazy. I cant reference your context specifically leading to this post because I just will not click on ignored content anymore to spare me the disinformation and "reporting vendetta" to my horribly insulting posts to some - so If im not completely in line with where you were going with it MY BAD!

For example I ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY dislike Bill OBrien with a passion. Cant stand the man. With that said, I cant make up blatant lies about him in order to support my hate right? So I'll bring up the crazy mismanaged games, horrible human interactions with fans, crappy way he's treated players, bad personnel decisions etc.. all truths - to help others hold this guy accountable, but then whats the response? "Well Bill OBrien is only making the mistakes all the other HC's make"

LOL - and on and on goes the hamster wheel.
1. The question is can a young DW4 change the way he's played all of his life? Looking for the big play and if it's not there taking off running instead of hitting his check downs. This doesn't even speak to needing to improve his accuracy/anticipation issues. Can he improve enough to win a championship? You think he can (If you will even admit he's got these issues) I dont and I'm willing to take the heat for being the 1st that say I think he wont be able to change what he's been doing all of his life.

So what's the way around this? For BOB to have him make less reads,, why? because he struggles to make it through his progressions, if he's struggling to make it through theem then BOB needs to give him less decisions/progressions to make it through. Does that make him stupid? Nope Can he learn yes. Will he learn? I'm betting Nope.

2. You cant stand BOB why? Could it be that you think he's holding back DW4 and all you really care about is DW4's performance? This just in, it doesn't matter who the HC is, unless DW4 improves on the things I listed above it wont matter who the HC is and we will be having this same discussion for another very long 5 yrs.

BTW, you used the word enormus, that would perfectly describe your ego.
 
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76Texan

Hall of Fame
There was a play to be made there that didn't get made.
Really? Which one?
It was 2nd and 18; there's an opportunity to go deep, you take it.

The Z (split wide right) was only 5 yards, with 2 defenders ready to pounce.
The outside slot was covered by one of the safeties.

The TE was well-covered , short, by the LB.

The left side slot #16 (same side with Hopkins) was 4 yard with the RCB on him.

What play was there?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Really? Which one?
It was 2nd and 18; there's an opportunity to go deep, you take it.

The Z (split wide right) was only 5 yards, with 2 defenders ready to pounce.
The outside slot was covered by one of the safeties.

The TE was well-covered , short, by the LB.

The left side slot #16 (same side with Hopkins) was 4 yard with the RCB on him.

What play was there?
The outside slot
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
So, I quickly went through the play-by-play of the first 3 games.
I noted 4 false starts (by any lineman), and 2 resulted in a punt.

One was converted, but just barely.

Another one was converted near the opponent goal line.
It was a TD, luckily.
But here we see how a false start can alter the play call near the goal line.
And if we didn't convert it, we would have to settle for a FG.
Thanks and I do understand any penalty leading to a TO or failure to score or ending a drive but we were talking about Tunsil and not entire Oline.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Thanks and I do understand any penalty leading to a TO or failure to score or ending a drive but we were talking about Tunsil and not entire Oline.
Yep, and if 14 five yd penalties kill your season then there are way bigger issues.

You know what affects your team more than anything, not being able to protect your QB and Tunsil is very good at that. Being only 25 yrs old he should only get better, but with Devlin who knows if he will.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Really? Which one?
It was 2nd and 18; there's an opportunity to go deep, you take it.

The Z (split wide right) was only 5 yards, with 2 defenders ready to pounce.
The outside slot was covered by one of the safeties.

The TE was well-covered , short, by the LB.

The left side slot #16 (same side with Hopkins) was 4 yard with the RCB on him.

What play was there?
Not only that, but people need to understand how a progression works in the passing game. #1 - NOT EVERY RECEIVER ON EVERY PLAY IS AN INTENDED TARGET!!!! There are dummy routes, space clearing routes, verticals just to take the safety with you. Just because Mr. Weekend Warrior Texan fan see's a guy open, doesnt mean that the guy is even thought about in the play, you only have 2.5 seconds to make a decision, no way you can include 4 different route variations of different lengths and timing. NO WAY! After you understand that, THEN you can jump into leverage, passing lanes, and windows. Some of those passing variables are directly influenced by bad OL play.

This system here relies on deep, long developing plays. Its a systemic flaw. Nothing Watson can really do, but be patient in the face of danger. When he does find guys like Taiwan Jones, or Fells its usually on broken plays, where Watsons athleticism and talent make something out of nothing.

I mean how many more QBs need to come down the pipe before we start questioning they system? Who is the last successful guy to run this? Brady? Brady is running McDaniels system, and did so even with OBrien was there. So apart from Brady if that is the answer, who else has run a Bill OBrien passing game well? Christian Hackenberg?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Thanks and I do understand any penalty leading to a TO or failure to score or ending a drive but we were talking about Tunsil and not entire Oline.
I did some studies on just Tunsil as posted above.
Regardless of the Olineman, we saw that a False Start often led to bad results.
What if all 5 guys were doing the same thing?
No way you can win even a game.
Think about that.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Most plays have a QB go through 2 reads and a check down.

I will admit I'm a weekend warrior.

This just in so are 76/UR.

Don't be fooled.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
For those of you curious, or just want to feel more confident when talking about the concepts visit the USA Football site, its intended for teaching youth/beginner level players about the sport, but if you dont know the basics how can you argue the specifics?


Each receiver is numbered by sequence from 1 to 3 or 1 to 4 with an outlet. The No. 1 is the primary receiver selected first on the quarterback’s rhythm throw. If the No. 1 is covered, the quarterback will look at the No. 2 receiver after the gather step. If the first two receivers are not open, the QB will turret and reset to the No. 3 receiver. Time is a factor for quarterbacks to finish the progression is the problem. Frustration sometimes sets in if they’re not able to finish the progression.

There are limitations to the use of the progression method.
• The QB stares down the receivers
• It’s frustrating for coaches and quarterbacks If receivers are open.
• You don't pre-read who to throw to.
Each receiver runs a specific route unless the type of defense changes it. These adjustments are called alerts or pattern adjustments.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Most plays have a QB go through 2 reads and a check down.

I will admit I'm a weekend warrior.

This just in so are 76/UR.

Don't be fooled.
Fooled by what?
I had proof.


4:23 mark of the video
13:19 in the third quarter.

Watch the replay.
The Panthers were in 52 zone, rushing 5.
One of the safeties stepped down to the middle (that was another reason that Hopkins was open).
The hook defender release the outside slot to the SS (on the defense left and the offense right).
That slot man was never open.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
2nd & 18 and you want him to check-down to the outside slot for a 3 yard gain?

It was a 4 man rush. You would have think he'd have a cleaner pocket so he can make a better throw to an open Nuk.

IMO, BOB's offense heavily relies on that OL to be able to contain 4 man rushes.
Get the ball to the slot and give h a chance to make a play. If he doesn't get the 1st down you still probably get 8-10 yds and it sets up a manageable 3rd down.

This is exactly the type of situation that DW4 needs to improve upon.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Fooled by what?
I had proof.


4:23 mark of the video
13:19 in the third quarter.

Watch the replay.
The Panthers were in 52 zone, rushing 5.
One of the safeties stepped down to the middle (that was another reason that Hopkins was open).
The hook defender release the outside slot to the SS (on the defense left and the offense right).
That slot man was never open.
We must be talking about different plays.

Please inform us what a 52 zone is and if you have ever played in it. I would be very interested in knowing the intracasies of that defense.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
We must be talking about different plays.

Please inform us what a 52 zone is and if you have ever played in it. I would be very interested in knowing the intracasies of that defense.
I guess we were talking about different plays.
But I did bring up the fact that it involved Tunsil, and gave the time of the game along with the video clip in the first post regarding the specific play.

No, I had stated many times before that I had never played organized football, but it's not rocket science.
One can learn the game.

Todd Haley never played football at any level, yet he'd been the OC for 4 different teams (10 years), and the HC of the Chiefs for 3 years. And he had served in other capacities (like WR coaches) for another 10 years.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I guess we were talking about different plays.
But I did bring up the fact that it involved Tunsil, and gave the time of the game along with the video clip in the first post regarding the specific play.

No, I had stated many times before that I had never played organized football, but it's not rocket science.
One can learn the game.

Todd Haley never played football at any level, yet he'd been the OC for 4 different teams (10 years), and the HC of the Chiefs for 3 years. And he had served in other capacities (like WR coaches) for another 10 years.
Add Belichek, Tomlin, McCarthy, Walsh, Lombardi, Paul Brown, Tom Coughlin, McVay, Gase etc.. etc.. many examples of great coaches not getting past college in playing terms. Some great college coaches never even played high school football.

Football is a sport where the students of the game will benefit most because it takes so many gears to work in unison in order to be effective and successful.

I played football into college, but Ive learned more about the game coaching youth kids and reading extensively about the game versus just specialized anecdotes related to my position(s) from high school or college coaches. Its a dumb and uninformed statement to make that someone "doesnt understand" simply because they havent played.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I guess we were talking about different plays.
But I did bring up the fact that it involved Tunsil, and gave the time of the game along with the video clip in the first post regarding the specific play.

No, I had stated many times before that I had never played organized football, but it's not rocket science.
One can learn the game.

Todd Haley never played football at any level, yet he'd been the OC for 4 different teams (10 years), and the HC of the Chiefs for 3 years. And he had served in other capacities (like WR coaches) for another 10 years.
I was really just asking about the intracasies of the 52 zone and where the name of that defense comes from.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Get the ball to the slot and give h a chance to make a play. If he doesn't get the 1st down you still probably get 8-10 yds and it sets up a manageable 3rd down.

This is exactly the type of situation that DW4 needs to improve upon.
Yup..not hard to grasp. The biggest play of the Buffalo playoff game...3rd and 18, DW4 checked it down to a wide open Duke who was about 8-10 yards short of the 1st upon catching the ball. Duke went and made the play himself.

He's got great skill guys around him, he has to learn to trust them more & let them make plays too.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Sure he does .. mainly just maturing as a professional NFL QB. What has been the main gripe? "he holds the ball too long" .. "he has a good offensive line now he shouldnt be skittish" .. "guys are open all over the field, he's too stupid to see them" .. and on and on AD NAUSEUM. Its so hard for me to understand; as a diehard myself; that Texans Talk is what pops up when a Texan fan wants to find a place to talk about their team it was that way for me and many of us I would presume (excluding the SUPER BLUE BLOOD OGs from the old board). Then they come here to find factions of polar opposites when it comes to the discussions. How did it get there? Convenient "mistruths.

How many times has there been enormous amounts of data and supporting evidence to counter what some are saying are his glaring issues and why we cant win with Watson? When it comes time for the rebuttal, you know like in a normal adult discussion/debate, time to educate ME, help ME see it your way what happens? (nobody changes minds on the internet, but people can still use it as a learning tool) Then its Rick Smiths fault! LOL .. THEN its because the core players arent good enough from a regime 7 years ago and we have to purge ALL of those players AND the executives from that regime in order to THEN be ready to REALLY win with this team. LMAO.

I dont have a problem whatsoever with opinion - I welcome different thoughts and views its how innovation works, but I cant stand when someone; through a petty tantrum or personal hatred for a guy; will go to great lengths to discredit anything and everything he does!! Its crazy. I cant reference your context specifically leading to this post because I just will not click on ignored content anymore to spare me the disinformation and "reporting vendetta" to my horribly insulting posts to some - so If im not completely in line with where you were going with it MY BAD!

For example I ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY dislike Bill OBrien with a passion. Cant stand the man. With that said, I cant make up blatant lies about him in order to support my hate right? So I'll bring up the crazy mismanaged games, horrible human interactions with fans, crappy way he's treated players, bad personnel decisions etc.. all truths - to help others hold this guy accountable, but then whats the response? "Well Bill OBrien is only making the mistakes all the other HC's make"

LOL - and on and on goes the hamster wheel.
When I said tell the entire story, I was referring to those that routinely bashes the youngster. They are not factoring all facets of the game. Example: I keep reading he wasn’t a top QB in the last 5 games. So tell me why , what actually happened, what changed? Not one time did the argument about how the running game dropped off during that stretch too. The play calling was very unimpressive during that stretch as well. Are we really saying the entire offensive production dropped off because of the quarterbacks play. Man I’m not buying that crap. Go back and look at Denver’s game. Bro that offense was vanilla AF and boring as heck. Bill O’Brien’s plan for that game was piss poor. Shoots his entire team was not ready to play and that’s including Watson. They completely underestimated this team after a great win for the franchise.

Watson’s play was a direct reflection from the poor schemes and terrible game planning by the OC. He wasn’t the only one effected. The entire offensive production went down.
 
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76Texan

Hall of Fame
I was really just asking about the intracasies of the 52 zone and where the name of that defense comes from.
OK, good.
To be honest, I don't remember where and when and how the name come about.
(I'm 61, not that young anymore, and too much reading on various subjects, from travel, cooking, business, history, geography, law, science, literature, fictions - from Stephen King to Dean Koontz, whats that guy's name who's famous for all the military and spy stuffs?)

But basically, it stemmed from either the 4 or 3 man front to counter the offense.
..........

You have 5 offensive linemen, and in the old days, a RB and a FB, plus the QB, a TE, and two receivers as a base scheme on offense.

Let's say the TE and the FB stay to block. That's 7 men (along with the 5 linemen).

So the defense usually counters with a 4-3 or 5-2 front.
(7 defenders in the box).

With 2 receivers, it makes sense to have 2 CBs.

That left 2 safeties.
If you want to defend the pass, especially like in a 3rd and long situation, you keep both safeties back.

With a 4-man front, it's only natural that you drop the 3 LBs back along with the 2 CBs in a 5-man zone (if you want to play zone).

With a 3-man front, you can bring the WILB up to rush, and the SILB back (he's facing the LB, for simplicity).
You now have a 4-man front and a 5-2 zone.

The 5 zones are also designed to counter the routes that the offense can run from various formations.

For simplicity sake, the TE can run a quick hook, up 5 yards and stop/turn.
The LB can drop back in the hook zone to defend this route.
The MLB takes care of the middle hole, with an eye on the FB (but also on the TE in case he runs a quick shallow crossing route.)

So on and so forth.

The priority of the 52 zone is to prevent the deep pass.
Theoretically, you have two safeties to help out the 2 CBs on the two receivers - one or both can be a deep threat.

With variations of the routes run by the offense, the 52 can morph into cover 4 (and a host of cover 3), depending on the scheme and the defensive play call.

It's really interesting to read and learn (with video aids) over the years.
I started to learn at the end of the 2006 season.
It's fascinating.
So fascinating that I declare football is the best sport game on earth.

I downloaded playbooks (both NFL and NCAA) and started to learn.

Let's say the offense line up in the standard offset I formation, with a RB and a FB.
And they have a TE (the Y) next to the RT, with a receiver on either side (X on the weakside left, Z on the strong side right.)

And I try to learn what the offense can do out of that base formation, via the playbooks.
And I started to question and look for how the various defenses counter them.

I was semi-retired somewhere between 08 and 09.
I started spending about 360 days a year to watch, read, and learn.
I was more studious than when I was in college.
I went to sleep learning football.
I woke up with thoughts about plays and formations.

I had numerous playbooks in my car.
While I drove, I had my thought about a certain play.
What if this, what if that.

I spent more time learning football than I did on my double-major in college (Electrical Engineering and Computer Engineering, while also taking business and economy courses).

I had worked for UH System for about 5 years, so I took the advantage to be a "professional student" that never use the degrees.
(I came out and open my own small business - not for money, just for the independence).

The bottom line is it allowed me the free time to learn about football.
At one time, I had said that it's a joy to share the knowledge about the football we come to love.

It's never about being right.
Like when I "defended" KJax and Chris Myers.
It was about appreciation for the players they are.
Or with the misconception that Foster had fumbilitis in college (which mr tex still harps on - I bet you he didn't even see many of those fumbles.)

It's rather sad.
What happens to not guilty until proven?

You just read that the guy "fumble" the ball; you never see how it happened.

Similarly, with a QB's interception; not all of them are the same.
When a guy throw a hail-mary just before the half or at the end of the game is not the same.

When it's 3rd and 29 at midfield, an INT downfield is just like a punt.

A lot of times, i bring up stats, but trust me, I vested those stats more carefully than most.
I do generalize at times, but overall, I do not screw up the integrity of the data - it's just not me.

Thank you for reading, and for the love of the game - whatever is left of it.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
@76Texan - have you ever thought about coaching elementary level kids about the sport? Its monumentally fulfilling and believe it or not you learn MORE at that level than in any other level i've been a part of.

I too opened my own business after spending close to 2 decades in the oil/gas sector in various positions because I felt unfulfilled. With extra time I devoted it to coaching my sons teams when he was young, and kept doing it for the last few years. I cant think of a more enjoyable time for me. I ALWAYS take on the new/no experience players and have found so much joy that i have been seriously considering getting my educators degree just so i can coach at different levels.

Good to know more about you my guy!

Hey does it hurt your feelings when I use the word "boomer"??? Just curious.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
OK, good.
To be honest, I don't remember where and when and how the name come about.
(I'm 61, not that young anymore, and too much reading on various subjects, from travel, cooking, business, history, geography, law, science, literature, fictions - from Stephen King to Dean Koontz, whats that guy's name who's famous for all the military and spy stuffs?)

But basically, it stemmed from either the 4 or 3 man front to counter the offense.
..........

You have 5 offensive linemen, and in the old days, a RB and a FB, plus the QB, a TE, and two receivers as a base scheme on offense.

Let's say the TE and the FB stay to block. That's 7 men (along with the 5 linemen).

So the defense usually counters with a 4-3 or 5-2 front.
(7 defenders in the box).

With 2 receivers, it makes sense to have 2 CBs.

That left 2 safeties.
If you want to defend the pass, especially like in a 3rd and long situation, you keep both safeties back.

With a 4-man front, it's only natural that you drop the 3 LBs back along with the 2 CBs in a 5-man zone (if you want to play zone).

With a 3-man front, you can bring the WILB up to rush, and the SILB back (he's facing the LB, for simplicity).
You now have a 4-man front and a 5-2 zone.

The 5 zones are also designed to counter the routes that the offense can run from various formations.

For simplicity sake, the TE can run a quick hook, up 5 yards and stop/turn.
The LB can drop back in the hook zone to defend this route.
The MLB takes care of the middle hole, with an eye on the FB (but also on the TE in case he runs a quick shallow crossing route.)

So on and so forth.

The priority of the 52 zone is to prevent the deep pass.
Theoretically, you have two safeties to help out the 2 CBs on the two receivers - one or both can be a deep threat.

With variations of the routes run by the offense, the 52 can morph into cover 4 (and a host of cover 3), depending on the scheme and the defensive play call.

It's really interesting to read and learn (with video aids) over the years.
I started to learn at the end of the 2006 season.
It's fascinating.
So fascinating that I declare football is the best sport game on earth.

I downloaded playbooks (both NFL and NCAA) and started to learn.

Let's say the offense line up in the standard offset I formation, with a RB and a FB.
And they have a TE (the Y) next to the RT, with a receiver on either side (X on the weakside left, Z on the strong side right.)

And I try to learn what the offense can do out of that base formation, via the playbooks.
And I started to question and look for how the various defenses counter them.

I was semi-retired somewhere between 08 and 09.
I started spending about 360 days a year to watch, read, and learn.
I was more studious than when I was in college.
I went to sleep learning football.
I woke up with thoughts about plays and formations.

I had numerous playbooks in my car.
While I drove, I had my thought about a certain play.
What if this, what if that.

I spent more time learning football than I did on my double-major in college (Electrical Engineering and Computer Engineering, while also taking business and economy courses).

I had worked for UH System for about 5 years, so I took the advantage to be a "professional student" that never use the degrees.
(I came out and open my own small business - not for money, just for the independence).

The bottom line is it allowed me the free time to learn about football.
At one time, I had said that it's a joy to share the knowledge about the football we come to love.

It's never about being right.
Like when I "defended" KJax and Chris Myers.
It was about appreciation for the players they are.
Or with the misconception that Foster had fumbilitis in college (which mr tex still harps on - I bet you he didn't even see many of those fumbles.)

It's rather sad.
What happens to not guilty until proven?

You just read that the guy "fumble" the ball; you never see how it happened.

Similarly, with a QB's interception; not all of them are the same.
When a guy throw a hail-mary just before the half or at the end of the game is not the same.

When it's 3rd and 29 at midfield, an INT downfield is just like a punt.

A lot of times, i bring up stats, but trust me, I vested those stats more carefully than most.
I do generalize at times, but overall, I do not screw up the integrity of the data - it's just not me.

Thank you for reading, and for the love of the game - whatever is left of it.
Lol, you think it matters b/c " you saw them" lol. Fact is, that's not even my "misconception" it was a tag dropped on him by his fellow Volunteer fans and apparently all 32 teams including the Texans which is part of the reason he went undrafted.
https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/advosports/sports/state/why-teams-passed-on-arian-foster-in-nfl-draft/article_3a1c404b-c7a6-571c-af29-8c116cf1f83a.html
Guess they didn't see them either even though its their job.

i mean, i could go into my background about what i do for a living in terms of organ transplant outcomes data analysis, but it's really irrelevant. Why something happens only matters when trying to understand it...Still doesn't change the fact that it happened....& it becomes a subjective thing when you start trying to weigh and assign value as to how much it matters or not.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
When I said tell the entire story, I was referring to those that routinely bashes the youngster. They are not factoring all facets of the game. Example: I keep reading he wasn’t a top QB in the last 5 games. So tell me why , what actually happened, what changed? Not one time did the argument about how the running game dropped off during that stretch too. The play calling was very unimpressive during that stretch as well. Are we really saying the entire offensive production dropped off because of the quarterbacks play. Man I’m not buying that crap. Go back and look at Denver’s game. Bro that offense was vanilla AF and boring as heck. Bill O’Brien’s plan for that game was piss poor. Shoots his entire team was not ready to play and that’s including Watson. They completely underestimated this team after a great win for the franchise.

Watson’s play was a direct reflection from the poor schemes and terrible game planning by the OC. He wasn’t the only one effected. The entire offensive production went down.
The Denver was a total team let down, which was to be expected after the Pats game.

DW4 was terrible in the Tampa game and the playcalling cant be blamed. I'm of the thought BOB ran the ball up the middle to try to shorten the game because BOB knew he couldn't win with DW4 throwing the ball alot.

Speaking of running the ball up the middle, how many plays running plays in that game were RPO's where DW4 gave the ball to Hyde up the middle when he should have kept the ball. That's an honest question because if DW4 never pulls the ball then of course the inside dive is going to look very conservative and maddening after seing it run 15 times in a half.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Lol, you think it matters b/c " you saw them" lol. Fact is, that's not even my "misconception" it was a tag dropped on him by his fellow Volunteer fans and apparently all 32 teams including the Texans which is part of the reason he went undrafted.
https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/advosports/sports/state/why-teams-passed-on-arian-foster-in-nfl-draft/article_3a1c404b-c7a6-571c-af29-8c116cf1f83a.html
Guess they didn't see them either even though its their job.

i mean, i could go into my background about what i do for a living in terms of organ transplant outcomes data analysis, but it's really irrelevant. Why something happens only matters when trying to understand it...Still doesn't change the fact that it happened....& it becomes a subjective thing when you start trying to weigh and assign value as to how much it matters or not.
You might want to read it again.

(Yes, I had read about all of these stuffs regarding Foster.)

Read the article again.

It says he was charged with 5 fumbles in 650 carries.
(And as I had said, 1 fumble for every 100 touches is very good already, especially when you"re making plays.)

The article went on to say half the fumbles wasn't even his fault.

I want you to know that I had watched/studied those fumbles countless of times.

And yes, they came at the most unfortunate of times.

College fans (mostly kids); the majority of them were just having blast-off days in college. I was there at one time just the same. Much passion without knowledge of the game to match.

I remember getting on the "official" Houston Texans board, "defending" Chris Myers when I received ackowledgment from his dad (whose many posts I had read).
They were not like Hulk75 (aka Derek Carr) defending his brother.
He thanked me for seeing what the task may entail in certain blocking scheme.
I told him not to worry; Myers was going to be a mainstay on that offensive line in the ZBS scheme.
I watched his tape when he was with the Broncos, and I can clearly see why Kubiak would want him.
He understood the how, when, and why you need to perform a certain task.

I had studied tapes of Flanagan and McKinney (who were in the ZBS before) to gain some knowledges.


...


With Foster, I had also encountered his mom on this very TT board.
I told her not to worry about trying to defend his fumbles in college.
And best not to get on the forum.

It's not a matter of blind faith.
You guys know how much I like to watch every detail of a play.
Sometimes, I could watch it from the perspective of all 22 players on the field.. to try to learn their intention.

Why this guy do this presnap, and after the snap.
Once you study each one of them, you get a better understanding about the overall scheme.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
@76Texan - have you ever thought about coaching elementary level kids about the sport? Its monumentally fulfilling and believe it or not you learn MORE at that level than in any other level i've been a part of.

I too opened my own business after spending close to 2 decades in the oil/gas sector in various positions because I felt unfulfilled. With extra time I devoted it to coaching my sons teams when he was young, and kept doing it for the last few years. I cant think of a more enjoyable time for me. I ALWAYS take on the new/no experience players and have found so much joy that i have been seriously considering getting my educators degree just so i can coach at different levels.

Good to know more about you my guy!

Hey does it hurt your feelings when I use the word "boomer"??? Just curious.
Yes, I have thought about it and want to do it, but there's nothing in my area.

Then I have a bit of a different "calling" regarding travel, where I can help out the locals in a lesser-developed country to earn their keeps, so it's all good.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
OK, good.
To be honest, I don't remember where and when and how the name come about.
(I'm 61, not that young anymore, and too much reading on various subjects, from travel, cooking, business, history, geography, law, science, literature, fictions - from Stephen King to Dean Koontz, whats that guy's name who's famous for all the military and spy stuffs?)

But basically, it stemmed from either the 4 or 3 man front to counter the offense.
..........

You have 5 offensive linemen, and in the old days, a RB and a FB, plus the QB, a TE, and two receivers as a base scheme on offense.

Let's say the TE and the FB stay to block. That's 7 men (along with the 5 linemen).

So the defense usually counters with a 4-3 or 5-2 front.
(7 defenders in the box).

With 2 receivers, it makes sense to have 2 CBs.

That left 2 safeties.
If you want to defend the pass, especially like in a 3rd and long situation, you keep both safeties back.

With a 4-man front, it's only natural that you drop the 3 LBs back along with the 2 CBs in a 5-man zone (if you want to play zone).

With a 3-man front, you can bring the WILB up to rush, and the SILB back (he's facing the LB, for simplicity).
You now have a 4-man front and a 5-2 zone.

The 5 zones are also designed to counter the routes that the offense can run from various formations.

For simplicity sake, the TE can run a quick hook, up 5 yards and stop/turn.
The LB can drop back in the hook zone to defend this route.
The MLB takes care of the middle hole, with an eye on the FB (but also on the TE in case he runs a quick shallow crossing route.)

So on and so forth.

The priority of the 52 zone is to prevent the deep pass.
Theoretically, you have two safeties to help out the 2 CBs on the two receivers - one or both can be a deep threat.

With variations of the routes run by the offense, the 52 can morph into cover 4 (and a host of cover 3), depending on the scheme and the defensive play call.

It's really interesting to read and learn (with video aids) over the years.
I started to learn at the end of the 2006 season.
It's fascinating.
So fascinating that I declare football is the best sport game on earth.

I downloaded playbooks (both NFL and NCAA) and started to learn.

Let's say the offense line up in the standard offset I formation, with a RB and a FB.
And they have a TE (the Y) next to the RT, with a receiver on either side (X on the weakside left, Z on the strong side right.)

And I try to learn what the offense can do out of that base formation, via the playbooks.
And I started to question and look for how the various defenses counter them.

I was semi-retired somewhere between 08 and 09.
I started spending about 360 days a year to watch, read, and learn.
I was more studious than when I was in college.
I went to sleep learning football.
I woke up with thoughts about plays and formations.

I had numerous playbooks in my car.
While I drove, I had my thought about a certain play.
What if this, what if that.

I spent more time learning football than I did on my double-major in college (Electrical Engineering and Computer Engineering, while also taking business and economy courses).

I had worked for UH System for about 5 years, so I took the advantage to be a "professional student" that never use the degrees.
(I came out and open my own small business - not for money, just for the independence).

The bottom line is it allowed me the free time to learn about football.
At one time, I had said that it's a joy to share the knowledge about the football we come to love.

It's never about being right.
Like when I "defended" KJax and Chris Myers.
It was about appreciation for the players they are.
Or with the misconception that Foster had fumbilitis in college (which mr tex still harps on - I bet you he didn't even see many of those fumbles.)

It's rather sad.
What happens to not guilty until proven?

You just read that the guy "fumble" the ball; you never see how it happened.

Similarly, with a QB's interception; not all of them are the same.
When a guy throw a hail-mary just before the half or at the end of the game is not the same.

When it's 3rd and 29 at midfield, an INT downfield is just like a punt.

A lot of times, i bring up stats, but trust me, I vested those stats more carefully than most.
I do generalize at times, but overall, I do not screw up the integrity of the data - it's just not me.

Thank you for reading, and for the love of the game - whatever is left of it.
Thanks for the description.

We all love the game and I wish I had the time to study that you do.

Foster wasn't really a fumbler in college. But the resaon he was an UDFA was 1. He was coming off injury and ran a slow 40 time. 2. Attitude issues that carried over into the pro's. 3. Although not a fumbler his fumbles seemed to come in big games at the worst times.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
@76Texan - have you ever thought about coaching elementary level kids about the sport? Its monumentally fulfilling and believe it or not you learn MORE at that level than in any other level i've been a part of.

I too opened my own business after spending close to 2 decades in the oil/gas sector in various positions because I felt unfulfilled. With extra time I devoted it to coaching my sons teams when he was young, and kept doing it for the last few years. I cant think of a more enjoyable time for me. I ALWAYS take on the new/no experience players and have found so much joy that i have been seriously considering getting my educators degree just so i can coach at different levels.

Good to know more about you my guy!

Hey does it hurt your feelings when I use the word "boomer"??? Just curious.
I’m currently in the oil and gas field sector. Hopefully in the next 5 years I will finally be able to start up my bbq restaurant somewhere near Spring TX. I love reading everyone’s take on the game. On this site along I have learned a lot.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
The Denver was a total team let down, which was to be expected after the Pats game.

DW4 was terrible in the Tampa game and the playcalling cant be blamed. I'm of the thought BOB ran the ball up the middle to try to shorten the game because BOB knew he couldn't win with DW4 throwing the ball alot.

Speaking of running the ball up the middle, how many plays running plays in that game were RPO's where DW4 gave the ball to Hyde up the middle when he should have kept the ball. That's an honest question because if DW4 never pulls the ball then of course the inside dive is going to look very conservative and maddening after seing it run 15 times in a half.
I wouldn’t say that was to be expected. Especially not an embarrassing loss to a very bad team.

I think it was only a few RPO plays ran. But we would never know exactly.
 
Last edited:

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I wouldn’t say that was to be expected. Especially not an embarrassing loss to a very bad team.

I don’t think it was only a few RPO plays ran. But we would never know exactly.
I expected the let down. The Pats game was BOB's waterloo moment.

They need to run more RPO's with DW4 keeing the ball so the defense will have to defend the width of the field.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
I expected the let down. The Pats game was BOB's waterloo moment.

They need to run more RPO's with DW4 keeing the ball so the defense will have to defend the width of the field.
Question, you keep mentioning the RPO, and stating that perhaps DW should’ve kept the ball more often. To me it sounds like you’re describing the zone-read option


I believe the RPO is where the QB reads the LB and either gives to the RB if the LB stays back or pulls it and throws it to the vacated area if the LB crashes down, ala how the Eagles beat the Patriots with Nick Foles at QB. Foles was never a threat to run the FB.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Thanks for the description.

We all love the game and I wish I had the time to study that you do.

Foster wasn't really a fumbler in college. But the resaon he was an UDFA was 1. He was coming off injury and ran a slow 40 time. 2. Attitude issues that carried over into the pro's. 3. Although not a fumbler his fumbles seemed to come in big games at the worst times.
Attitude may not be the right word.
This is Foster:

And I'm with him.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I’m currently in the oil and gas field sector. Hopefully in the next 5 years I will finally be able to start up my bbq restaurant somewhere near Spring TX. I love reading everyone’s take on the game. On this site along I have learned a lot.
its a grind bro. Watch the "7 year itch" as the market fluctuates every 7 or so years there tends to be some turmoil. The last one we had here in 2014-15 made me jump ship, but it had been very rewarding for me despite that. Good luck, and BBQ is a great idea - I was told by a very wealthy angel investor that the best industries to dabble in are medical supply/consulting,food service and childcare. Go figure!
 


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