Support and keep Texans Talk going. Make a donation here.

Week 15 - Chief Boyardee vs Texans

OptimisticTexan

2022 Rebuilding Block 2 / Go Texans
Herbert played better to his strengths with Pep Hamilton than he does now with Joe Lombardi. So I really don’t think it’s all on Pep :shades:
That’s b/c he was Herbert’s QB Coach….not OC and Lovie wasn’t his HC. Last season Mills turned it around after sitting for a couple of games…..Pep was his QB Coach, not his OC and Lovie was the DC. Maybe….just maybe Pep is a better QB Coach than OC.
 

Speedy

Former Yeller Dweller
What's funny is last week, I mentioned that Mills was going to improve over the next four weeks and we will be back to where we were at the end of last season. Looks like the Mills train is picking up steam again.
How so? He completed 50% of his passes and led the Texans to 80 total yards in the 2nd half and OT.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I can’t agree with his slow processing is based on his weapons when earlier in the season, he had a healthy Collins, Cooks, and Pierce and he was either going to the check down too soon or too slow with his progressions.
They were all learning a new offense then. No preseason snaps. I think that was the biggest issue. Mills & anyone with less than 4 years of service should have played three Qtrs all the way through
 

Earl34

All Pro
They were all learning a new offense then. No preseason snaps. I think that was the biggest issue. Mills & anyone with less than 4 years of service should have played three Qtrs all the way through
That's fair and limiting his preseason snaps was another mistake by the coaching staff. Then you add Lovie and Pep stressing no turnovers, keep the game close, trying to avoid mistakes and he played tight, tentative and indecisive.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I thought you wanted to keep Caserio?
I do, but if getting Williams or Maye means losing Caserio I'm on board.

Hire Dorsey or Wolf if this happens.

Or look at whatever HC tree you hire from and get a GM that shares the same philosophy as the HC.

Get Kalfka and hire from the Chiefs/Philly/NYG tree for instance.

Get Ryans or LaFluer and hire the GM from the Packers/49ers tree etc...
 
That's fair and limiting his preseason snaps was another mistake by the coaching staff. Then you add Lovie and Pep stressing no turnovers, keep the game close, trying to avoid mistakes and he played tight, tentative and indecisive.
Baffled as to why his preseason snaps were limited, why they have to constantly stress limiting turnovers, etc. Mills was/is not some hot QB commodity that needed to be protected from injury any more than any other player. Regardless of his experience, as a QB he should know that he has to minimize mistakes/bad decisions and translate that into his on-field performance within his control. Given what he has to work with: limited experience + an atrocious roster + Lovie (HC) + Pep (OC) = disaster for development. Moving forward is gonna be tough, if the Texans draft a QB early in 2023, do you think they start Mills and let the shiny new QB sit? If he starts and blossoms, the team could have 2 good assets to manage. But if they start a new rookie QB in 2023, I think Mills development with this team will be shot and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
 

Brisco_County

Texans worthy
Pep and Lovie run antiquated systems. It’s truly amazing. It’s like they don’t watch or keep up with what other teams are doing. Not once in the history of this franchise have they been cutting edge/progressive when it comes to analyzing players, scheme, game management and coaching. It’s such a stark difference to what the Astros have done. At best, they have been a step slow, now we are literally DECADES behind in developing a modern, successful NFL defensive and offensive scheme. That’s an indictment of the incompetence of the owner and GM of this pathetic franchise.
I have a feeling the 2006 Bears defense would still be top 5 today. The problem isn't so much the age of the system as it is the coach not adjusting it to the limitations of rookie or B-list players.
 
Game film trumps combine. The knee injury more concern to me + combine ruled him out for me.
Yeah, I can buy that. However, the combine is right up there in importance because it CORROBORATES the likelihood of the college game stats translating to the next level.

I still remember the draft about 10 years ago when Texas A&M DE Damontre Moore was talked about as a Top 5 pick in the draft. Has a great junior year with 12.5 sacks and 21.5 TFL and was a consensus All-American. Then the combine came around that year and Moore crapped the bed. If memory serves, he did like 12 reps on the bench press which showed that despite the stats, he was weak in upper body strength and likely wouldn't have a great impact in the NFL.

Sure enough, Moore slipped to the 3rd round and was never more than a backup player. A great example of how game tape is king, but combine stats are very useful is corroborating whether the emperor has no clothes.
 
Yeah, I can buy that. However, the combine is right up there in importance because it CORROBORATES the likelihood of the college game stats translating to the next level.

I still remember the draft about 10 years ago when Texas A&M DE Damontre Moore was talked about as a Top 5 pick in the draft. Has a great junior year with 12.5 sacks and 21.5 TFL and was a consensus All-American. Then the combine came around that year and Moore crapped the bed. If memory serves, he did like 12 reps on the bench press which showed that despite the stats, he was weak in upper body strength and likely wouldn't have a great impact in the NFL.

Sure enough, Moore slipped to the 3rd round and was never more than a backup player. A great example of how game tape is king, but combine stats are very useful is corroborating whether the emperor has no clothes.
Here's a nice writeup by BR about what happened to Moore at the combine and why he dropped so hard. The combine matter a lot IMO... Moore's 12 reps of 225 pounds on the bench press ranked dead last among all defensive linemen!

No way Green, a guard, should have been taken this high in the draft if his combine stats were subpar. That would be a terrible decision by Caserio. College tape has to match or be in an expected ballpark as combine performance, period.

 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Yeah, I can buy that. However, the combine is right up there in importance because it CORROBORATES the likelihood of the college game stats translating to the next level.

I still remember the draft about 10 years ago when Texas A&M DE Damontre Moore was talked about as a Top 5 pick in the draft. Has a great junior year with 12.5 sacks and 21.5 TFL and was a consensus All-American. Then the combine came around that year and Moore crapped the bed. If memory serves, he did like 12 reps on the bench press which showed that despite the stats, he was weak in upper body strength and likely wouldn't have a great impact in the NFL.

Sure enough, Moore slipped to the 3rd round and was never more than a backup player. A great example of how game tape is king, but combine stats are very useful is corroborating whether the emperor has no clothes.
Yeah one of my worse evals from combine was Von Miller. I watched him at A&M become Butkiss winner and he was my guy.. until combine. He had some issues in some agility drill as if he were drugged or something. He seemed confused as to what to do. IIRC even the announcers kept commenting and I moved him down my board. Of course he went to Denver at #2 and had an "all right career--lol". I should have remained solid with my eyeball game film.

What if we could get in comparison a Will Anderson and Tuli Tuipulotu round 2?
 
Yeah one of my worse evals from combine was Von Miller. I watched him at A&M become Butkiss winner and he was my guy.. until combine. He had some issues in some agility drill as if he were drugged or something. He seemed confused as to what to do. IIRC even the announcers kept commenting and I moved him down my board. Of course he went to Denver at #2 and had an "all right career--lol". I should have remained solid with my eyeball game film.

What if we could get in comparison a Will Anderson and Tuli Tuipulotu round 2?
Wow, Von Miller had trouble on agility drills? Surprising because that man is fantastic on his feet and getting low to turn the corner on a speed rush. I guess it can work both ways as well. Loved Miller out of the draft but didn't follow the combine that year so wasn't aware of this.

Combine going to be big for all the top guys. Players are going to rise and fall based upon it. If Will Anderson balls out in measurables, man going to be hard not to take him. Especially because he's purportedly got 4.6 speed which is fast enough to play OLB. Guy can line up all over the defensive line. He's one of my big watches this year in the combine. Your guess as good as mine who places where but the big outlier hits & misses are of particular interest.
 
Yeah one of my worse evals from combine was Von Miller. I watched him at A&M become Butkiss winner and he was my guy.. until combine. He had some issues in some agility drill as if he were drugged or something. He seemed confused as to what to do. IIRC even the announcers kept commenting and I moved him down my board. Of course he went to Denver at #2 and had an "all right career--lol". I should have remained solid with my eyeball game film.

What if we could get in comparison a Will Anderson and Tuli Tuipulotu round 2?
Combine is also a reason why all these mock draft are silly right now. I mean, they are generally in the ballpark about who will be selected where. But if Bryce Young measure 5'10 and has just ok cone drill scores and average ball accuracy, I doubt he'll be going #1. If Will Anderson bench 13 reps like Moore did 10 years ago, his stock will plummet. I suspect Will Levis will do well there, but he doesn;t have the game tape for #1 pick worthiness. Lots of suspense to come!

Be wary of the game tape warrior or combine warrior where one facet is out of sync with the other. We saw this first hand this year with Kenyon Green. Terrible move by Caserio. Hope Green can fix his strength issues this offseason.
 
Last edited:

badboy

Hall of Fame
Here's a nice writeup by BR about what happened to Moore at the combine and why he dropped so hard. The combine matter a lot IMO... Moore's 12 reps of 225 pounds on the bench press ranked dead last among all defensive linemen!

No way Green, a guard, should have been taken this high in the draft if his combine stats were subpar. That would be a terrible decision by Caserio. College tape has to match or be in an expected ballpark as combine performance, period.

Green's stats @ combine were okay with the knee issue he had. I expected him to pump more than 20 x 225 but many big guys just don't.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Wow, Von Miller had trouble on agility drills? Surprising because that man is fantastic on his feet and getting low to turn the corner on a speed rush. I guess it can work both ways as well. Loved Miller out of the draft but didn't follow the combine that year so wasn't aware of this.

Combine going to be big for all the top guys. Players are going to rise and fall based upon it. If Will Anderson balls out in measurables, man going to be hard not to take him. Especially because he's purportedly got 4.6 speed which is fast enough to play OLB. Guy can line up all over the defensive line. He's one of my big watches this year in the combine. Your guess as good as mine who places where but the big outlier hits & misses are of particular interest.
I want to continue but should move this to draft forum. I suggest BADBOY's players to watch in 2023.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Here's a nice writeup by BR about what happened to Moore at the combine and why he dropped so hard. The combine matter a lot IMO... Moore's 12 reps of 225 pounds on the bench press ranked dead last among all defensive linemen!

No way Green, a guard, should have been taken this high in the draft if his combine stats were subpar. That would be a terrible decision by Caserio. College tape has to match or be in an expected ballpark as combine performance, period.

Green will be fine, he got injured.
 
Green's stats @ combine were okay with the knee issue he had. I expected him to pump more than 20 x 225 but many big guys just don't.
"But many big guys don't" is not an excuse. A 300 lb guard should be in the high 20s, at minimum. The top DL can do up to 51 reps, which is the record. It demonstrates a clear lack of strength, which is exactly what we have seen this year with Green getting manhandled inside on a regular basis. This was a GUARD taken in the mid-1st round. Guards taken here shouldn't have these types of question marks, in my view. You take a guard mid-1st, he has to check out on the field and at the combine. Now, we have a question mark pick or potential just an average player if he gets better. Because Green has been terrible this year, according to PFF.
 
Green will be fine, he got injured.
Maybe, maybe not. Could be an excuse for getting manhandled on a regular basis... we shall see. But Caserio shouldn't have picked Green there as a guard if he wasn't strong at the combine. Need more than just technique, arm length etc to succeed in the NFL trenches. you need to be strong. And Green had question marks there. He better bulk up this offseason... Not a good pick by Caserio.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
Combine going to be big for all the top guys. Players are going to rise and fall based upon it. If Will Anderson balls out in measurables, man going to be hard not to take him. Especially because he's purportedly got 4.6 speed which is fast enough to play OLB. Guy can line up all over the defensive line. He's one of my big watches this year in the combine. Your guess as good as mine who places where but the big outlier hits & misses are of particular interest.
You put way too much importance on the combine 'shorts olympics'. The combine is just another tool in evaluating a player and may tell a personnel guy if he needs to watch more film. Many workout warriors don't pan out but game film can usually be counted on if the player is going to be used as he was in college.
 
You put way too much importance on the combine 'shorts olympics'. The combine is just another tool in evaluating a player and may tell a personnel guy if he needs to watch more film. Many workout warriors don't pan out but game film can usually be counted on if the player is going to be used as he was in college.
As previously stated, I do believe game film is key and the best evaluation tool. I don't think anybody would dispute this. But I also am not one to scoff at the combine as being the 'shorts olympics'. Again, they are an immensely important evaluation tool for scouts to corroborate on filed performance. I already gave one example how an consensus All-American, who was slated as a Top 5 or 7 pick, bombed out because of strength issues. There are plenty more example of this. If you went off the college film alone, teams would miss on players even more than they do now.

So, if you don't attach an importance to the 'shorts olympics', you are doing it wrong IMO. The combine is a great place to get all the top player measurables data at one event, instead of sending your bird dogs scouts all over the country relying on 2nd hand data and bias coach vouches.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
So, if you don't attach an importance to the 'shorts olympics', you are doing it wrong IMO. The combine is a great place to get all the top player measurables data at one event, instead of sending your bird dogs scouts all over the country relying on 2nd hand data and bias coach vouches.
Measurables yes. And also medical info and face to face meetings. But if that player (I'm not familiar with) had that big of a strength issue it would have shown in game film or medical eval once you knew to look for it. That player you are talking about did not 'bomb out' because of strength issues. He was expected to be a top 10 pick until the combine and then rightfully fell down the teams boards. Just like I was saying
 
Measurables yes. And also medical info and face to face meetings. But if that player (I'm not familiar with) had that big of a strength issue it would have shown in game film or medical eval once you knew to look for it. That player you are talking about did not 'bomb out' because of strength issues. He was expected to be a top 10 pick until the combine and then rightfully fell down the teams boards. Just like I was saying
No dude. The strength issues were a HUGE part of why Moore dropped - the main reason. College can hide some of the on-tape issues because the competition is much inferior to the NFL. Moore is amassing some of his numbers/tape against the likes of Utah State and scrub teams. Even Top tier division teams have inferior talent. The combine measurables showed that Moore did not have the strength to bull rush 310 lbs elite LTs, and he dropped. Moore also had some iffy off-field question marks but he dropped bc he bombed the combine mainly.

If you are in the camp that on field performance means everything and combine is only a footnote, like some people are, we will agree to disagree. I place more importance on it than many, although again, 100% in agreement on field play is the biggest determining factor.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
No dude. The strength issues were a HUGE part of why Moore dropped - the main reason. College can hide some of the on-tape issues because the competition is much inferior to the NFL. Moore is amassing some of his numbers/tape against the likes of Utah State and scrub teams. Even Top tier division teams have inferior talent. The combine measurables showed that Moore did not have the strength to bull rush 310 lbs elite LTs, and he dropped. Moore also had some iffy off-field question marks but he dropped bc he bombed the combine mainly.

If you are in the camp that on field performance means everything and combine is only a footnote, like some people are, we will agree to disagree. I place more importance on it than many, although again, 100% in agreement on field play is the biggest determining factor.
No, I didn't say you can ignore the combine. It's an important tool, but it's only a tool. Not a end-all be-all. It can show up major weaknesses but just because someone has a great combine showing doesn't over-ride game film. It tells you to watch more film if you had a lower (or higher) grade on that player. It has to be used in conjunction with your other scouting tools. The combine will not define a player
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
No dude. The strength issues were a HUGE part of why Moore dropped - the main reason. College can hide some of the on-tape issues because the competition is much inferior to the NFL. Moore is amassing some of his numbers/tape against the likes of Utah State and scrub teams. Even Top tier division teams have inferior talent. The combine measurables showed that Moore did not have the strength to bull rush 310 lbs elite LTs, and he dropped. Moore also had some iffy off-field question marks but he dropped bc he bombed the combine mainly.

If you are in the camp that on field performance means everything and combine is only a footnote, like some people are, we will agree to disagree. I place more importance on it than many, although again, 100% in agreement on field play is the biggest determining factor.
I understand what you are trying to say but comparing Moore to Kenyon green I think is a mistake.
 
I understand what you are trying to say but comparing Moore to Kenyon green I think is a mistake.
I wasn't comparing Damontre Moore to Kenyon Green. The former was an example of what makes the combine important—particularly finding OUTLIER contradictions of when on field performance does not match with measurables. Damontre Moore is a perfect example of this.

Regarding Green, what I did say is that Caserio is no way should have taken a guard that high with below average upper body strength at the position. I'm fine with a mid 1st round guard as long as he check ALL the boxes, on the field and with the measurables. Green did not do that. He lacked the kind of strength needed to play in the NFL right away and it's showed. Green has been terrible. So there's a big element of risk now as to what Green will ultimately be.
 
Last edited:
No, I didn't say you can ignore the combine. It's an important tool, but it's only a tool. Not a end-all be-all. It can show up major weaknesses but just because someone has a great combine showing doesn't over-ride game film. It tells you to watch more film if you had a lower (or higher) grade on that player. It has to be used in conjunction with your other scouting tools. The combine will not define a player
Never said the combine over rides the game film - said the opposite in fact. Just pointed out that the combine is a very important evaluation tool to marry performance with measurables. Obviously, the two must be used in conjunction with one another for best effect. Again, best prospect IMO is when on field performance and measurables (combine) corroborate one another. It's that simple really.
 

BullRushTX

Frequently bemused
Last word on Green here, but this video nails it (starts 8:18).

Yeah, pre-draft I said if we're going CB at #3, pick Sauce and if we're going interior OL at #15 pick Linderbaum.

I thought Sauce looked like he'd be a reliable shutdown corner and I was worried about Stingley's health. Linderbaum looked like he was going to be a solid, 10-year starter. Honestly, I thought Green would still be decent. Oh, well.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Yeah, pre-draft I said if we're going CB at #3, pick Sauce and if we're going interior OL at #15 pick Linderbaum.

I thought Sauce looked like he'd be a reliable shutdown corner and I was worried about Stingley's health. Linderbaum looked like he was going to be a solid, 10-year starter. Honestly, I thought Green would still be decent. Oh, well.
Yes we have the Oh well team
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Yeah, pre-draft I said if we're going CB at #3, pick Sauce and if we're going interior OL at #15 pick Linderbaum.

I thought Sauce looked like he'd be a reliable shutdown corner and I was worried about Stingley's health. Linderbaum looked like he was going to be a solid, 10-year starter. Honestly, I thought Green would still be decent. Oh, well.
I still do think the Green we saw the 1st month of the season will be the guy they drafted. He's a rookie and he got hurt.
 

vtech9

All Pro
I still do think the Green we saw the 1st month of the season will be the guy they drafted. He's a rookie and he got hurt.
Exactly. People seem to discount the pec/shoulder injury he received in the Raider game. He was playing pretty good up to that point, and should have been given time to recover. Instead, our glorious coaching staff kept sending him out there, and his game suffered. Given time to recover, and a full offseason to strengthen up, I'm sure he will turn out to be a very good player for years to come here in Houston.
 
There's a video like that comes out every year but until at least year 3 they don't mean squat
When the performance is that bad in Year 1, the odds of a bust or average performance is high. Certainly, this is not an ideal situation. The ideal situation for any Round 1 draft pick is providing effect play in Year 1. Now, we can only 'hope' Green gets stronger and gets to a replacement level of play (or better).

So yeah, the verdict is far from over here for Green. He could definitely improve and become a good NFL player. But RIGHT NOW, the video is 100% correct and it does mean something. It means Green has been horrible to start his NFL career and often bad starts are a precursor to players that bust or are ultimately ineffectual. We shall see...
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
When the performance is that bad in Year 1, the odds of a bust or average performance is high. Certainly, this is not an ideal situation. The ideal situation for any Round 1 draft pick is providing effect play in Year 1. Now, we can only 'hope' Green gets stronger and gets to a replacement level of play (or better).

So yeah, the verdict is far from over here for Green. He could definitely improve and become a good NFL player. But RIGHT NOW, the video is 100% correct and it does mean something. It means Green has been horrible to start his NFL career and often bad starts are a precursor to players that bust or are ultimately ineffectual. We shall see...
But he didn't have a bad start, he played really well for the 1st 4 games and then got hurt.
 
But he didn't have a bad start, he played really well for the 1st 4 games and then got hurt.
Decent start. He was well enough to play on Sunday so we can't just discount his terrible play from injury alone, in my view. I think the injury is a major contributing factor, but lack of strength is a big factor also. Needs to get way stronger.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Decent start. He was well enough to play on Sunday so we can't just discount his terrible play from injury alone, in my view. I think the injury is a major contributing factor, but lack of strength is a big factor also. Needs to get way stronger.
You lose strength when you injure a pec. But I agree, he needs to get stronger.

It's almost like playing with one arm.

He shouldn't have been out there.

Coaching staff? SMH
 
Last edited:
But he didn't have a bad start, he played really well for the 1st 4 games and then got hurt.
Here's Green getting assaulted on the bull rush against the Commanders. Sure, it's Jonathan Allen and he's a great inside Dlineman. But nobody should get pushed back that easily on a straight bull rush. A prime example of the lack of strength Green possesses. This has been happening all year.

 
You lose strength when you injure a pec.

It's almost like playing with one arm.

He shouldn't have been out there.

Coaching staff? SMH
He "shouldn't" have been out there, yet he was. So I cannot assume that we know more than the coaching staff here. Green's issues are not 100% based on the injury IMO. He lacks upper body strength, as shown in the combine. Probably both factors are at play. Caserio made a bad selection, but hopefully Green can work his issues out and become a decent or goos LT starter. Very bad beginning to his career.
 


Top