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Week 12 vs. Jets

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Brown started right away (but he played two of every three series).
Tunsil is not having a good year.
Brown's rookie year was better than this, or at least the same.
It was better than Bakhtiari's rookie year.
I still have the game films.
I studied Brown since his college days and actually peg him for the Texans so I follow him very closely.
(I also studied all the Texans linemen in those years during the regular season as well as in the off-season. I even posted numerous games' play by play that included observation on the blocking).

But you're confident about Caserio's ability to draft a good lineman (it's not that hard in the first round this year).
You're also confident that Campen can coach him up so what's the holdup?
Besides, you don't expect the team to really compete until 2024.

The cap space can be roll over or you can use it right away to upgrade the line, giving more protection to the QB, hello?
They split time, doesn't really matter who started. The point is that DB was broken in slowly and learned the ropes from not only Gibbs but also Salaam. Who's going to break in your mythical drafted future all pro lt?

Where are these mythical good OL coming from in fa? I thought most posters have agreed top level fa's don't want to come to Kirby and not only that but there's no assurances you will be able to draft a LT as good as Tunsil.

Truth is, you didn't like the Tunsil trade to begin with and you don't like his contact. What we are really debating is keeping the known all pro Tunsil and adding to the ol through the draft and fa, vs trading him for cap space and hoping they can draft a guy as good as Tunsil with the acquired draft picks, since cap space isn't the issue.

If Caserio drafts Neal I won't have a problem with the pick because I know he will be a great RT with the ability to move to LT after he learns about the NFL speed of the game and that's when you trade Tunsil if you want too. I've actually got questions about Neal's feet and ability to play LT at a high level after seeing him get beat several times last week against Auburn.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
They split time, doesn't really matter who started. The point is that DB was broken in slowly and learned the ropes from not only Gibbs but also Salaam. Who's going to break in your mythical drafted future all pro lt?

Where are these mythical good OL coming from in fa? I thought most posters have agreed top level fa's don't want to come to Kirby and not only that but there's no assurances you will be able to draft a LT as good as Tunsil.

Truth is, you didn't like the Tunsil trade to begin with and you don't like his contact. What we are really debating is keeping the known all pro Tunsil and adding to the ol through the draft and fa, vs trading him for cap space and hoping they can draft a guy as good as Tunsil with the acquired draft picks, since cap space isn't the issue.

If Caserio drafts Neal I won't have a problem with the pick because I know he will be a great RT with the ability to move to LT after he learns about the NFL speed of the game and that's when you trade Tunsil if you want too. I've actually got questions about Neal's feet and ability to play LT at a high level after seeing him get beat several times last week against Auburn.
There's nothing mythical about offensive linemen FA; they're available every year.
All you need is to go back to the threads on Cannon and Britt where I had listed a number of them for discussion.

For next year, the list is here:

Depending on the position and the age of the guy, 8-13M will get you a decent-to-good one.

If you want an older guy to help break in the rookie LT, take one.

Duane Brown played two thirds of the snaps.
All the Texans needed back then was an inexpensive Salaam.

As you seem to like Cannon, retain him to help the youngster.
You've got Campen to teach the proper techniques at LT.

Bakhtiari and Spencer started right off the bat.

Like you had said before, a good LG will help the LT.
Hell, even Tunsil needed some help from the TE and the RB at times.
(Google Myles Garrett).

Money talk.
You might not get the top flight lineman, but nobody is talking about that (certainly not me).
Cap space is not an issue, according to you, even if you pay a guy or two slightly over the market value, he'll come.
You only have to look at Cannon and Britt as examples.

Truth is you loved the Tunsil trade from the start so you say anything to defend him regardless of how he currently plays and you assume that he can play at the same level into the future.
(By your own admission, that's not a guarantee, especially considering injuries and age.)

You're putting all the eggs in one basket and you're adamant that it's the safest play. That's not logical.
 

OptimisticTexan

2021 Building Block 1 / Go Texans
…..any chance the Dolphins would pay the same price to get their valued LT back in Miami?
Humorous way of making a point. Tunsil, the Pro Bowl LT isn’t worth what the Texans paid for him and would only return maybe half of his original price….not to mention the contract.

If Tunsil returned a RD1 and a RD3 in 2022 plus a RD4 in 2023….I’d be fairly satisfied. I don’t think his play and injury have improved his return value this season. It’s slanted more towards dwindling value. It might be better for Caserio to get what he can now versus waiting to see if Tunsil has a turnaround season in him for 2022.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Just because the Dolphins haven’t found a replacement doesn’t mean the Texans can’t. You know, Tunsil was a draft pick once. Those guys come from somewhere.
I think Geron & Tytus are good replacements now, for what the team is. Replaceable, but serviceable. TEs & RBs need to get better at picking up their assignments in pass pro. QB needs to get better at identifying the rush & calling protection. OC needs to get better.

However, I'd be looking to replace him (Geron) with a blue chip ASAP. & I think that's the biggest difference. I wouldn't not be looking to spend a 1st or 2nd rounder on LT with Tunsil in the lineup. Not in 2022, not in 2023. Not until I can't resign him to another ridiculous contract.

I'm not against trading Tunsil. But I want at least two 1st round picks to do it. One to replace him & one to add another elite player. If I can't get two 1s for him (& with his contract I don't believe I can get two 1s), I'm not doing it.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
There's nothing mythical about offensive linemen FA; they're available every year.
All you need is to go back to the threads on Cannon and Britt where I had listed a number of them for discussion.

For next year, the list is here:

Depending on the position and the age of the guy, 8-13M will get you a decent-to-good one.

If you want an older guy to help break in the rookie LT, take one.

Duane Brown played two thirds of the snaps.
All the Texans needed back then was an inexpensive Salaam.

As you seem to like Cannon, retain him to help the youngster.
You've got Campen to teach the proper techniques at LT.

Bakhtiari and Spencer started right off the bat.

Like you had said before, a good LG will help the LT.
Hell, even Tunsil needed some help from the TE and the RB at times.
(Google Myles Garrett).

Money talk.
You might not get the top flight lineman, but nobody is talking about that (certainly not me).
Cap space is not an issue, according to you, even if you pay a guy or two slightly over the market value, he'll come.
You only have to look at Cannon and Britt as examples.

Truth is you loved the Tunsil trade from the start so you say anything to defend him regardless of how he currently plays and you assume that he can play at the same level into the future.
(By your own admission, that's not a guarantee, especially considering injuries and age.)

You're putting all the eggs in one basket and you're adamant that it's the safest play. That's not logical.

1st of all Cannon is not a LT. In fact at this point with his injury situation he may not even be a RT.

2nd, I thought we agreed fa's won't come to Kirby and if they did they won't be an upgrade over Tunsil regardless of how much or little money you spend in fa. You're downgrading an already poor ol. Why not keep your best players if cap space isn't needed. Yes I liked the Tunsil trade at the time, things out of his control caused this to be a bad trade and no he's not injury prone. He hurt a thumb. His 1st significant injury and it's not like he tore an Achilles or an ACL. So claiming he's injury prone is not only a lie, but it proves your bias.



3rd the putting the eggs all in one basket comment proves your having reading comprehension issues in addition to bias issues. What I said was I wouldn't have a problem drafting Neal and letting him learn at RT for a couple of yrs then if Tunsil s contract is cap prohibitive then you trade him for picks and cap space and move Neal to LT. That's hardly what I would call putting my eggs all in one basket. In fact drafting a rookie like Neal and expecting him to come in as a rookie and play LT at a high level is what is known as putting all of your eggs in one basket.

Speaking of investing in the ol, if you really want to invest in the ol and offense in general, then draft this

Rd.1 Neal
Rd.2 Kinnard
Rd.3 Stromberg

The ol would look alot better looking like this.

Tunsil/Howard/Stromberg/Kinnard/Neal.

That's what an investment in the OL looks like.Not saying this is what I would do in the draft.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Humorous way of making a point. Tunsil, the Pro Bowl LT isn’t worth what the Texans paid for him and would only return maybe half of his original price….not to mention the contract.

If Tunsil returned a RD1 and a RD3 in 2022 plus a RD4 in 2023….I’d be fairly satisfied. I don’t think his play and injury have improved his return value this season. It’s slanted more towards dwindling value. It might be better for Caserio to get what he can now versus waiting to see if Tunsil has a turnaround season in him for 2022.
Get him healthy and see how he does next season and then consider trading him. But if talent is added to the ol and they play much better next year, then why would you want to trade anybody off of an ol that's performing well build around your all pro lt, don't trade him. If the ol is still bad next yr then trade him. I don't consider Christian to be serviceable. If he was he would have been starting last week. I also don't consider Howard to be a viable NFL LT candidate.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
1st of all Cannon is not a LT. In fact at this point with his injury situation he may not even be a RT.

2nd, I thought we agreed fa's won't come to Kirby and if they did they won't be an upgrade over Tunsil regardless of how much or little money you spend in fa. You're downgrading an already poor ol. Why not keep your best players if cap space isn't needed. Yes I liked the Tunsil trade at the time, things out of his control caused this to be a bad trade and no he's not injury prone. He hurt a thumb. His 1st significant injury and it's not like he tore an Achilles or an ACL. So claiming he's injury prone is not only a lie, but it proves your bias.



3rd the putting the eggs all in one basket comment proves your having reading comprehension issues in addition to bias issues. What I said was I wouldn't have a problem drafting Neal and letting him learn at RT for a couple of yrs then if Tunsil s contract is cap prohibitive then you trade him for picks and cap space and move Neal to LT. That's hardly what I would call putting my eggs all in one basket. In fact drafting a rookie like Neal and expecting him to come in as a rookie and play LT at a high level is what is known as putting all of your eggs in one basket.

Speaking of investing in the ol, if you really want to invest in the ol and offense in general, then draft this

Rd.1 Neal
Rd.2 Kinnard
Rd.3 Stromberg

The ol would look alot better looking like this.

Tunsil/Howard/Stromberg/Kinnard/Neal.

That's what an investment in the OL looks like.Not saying this is what I would do in the draft.
Who's saying anything about Tunsil's injury?
Definitely not me.

Cannon (or any old guy in the mould of Salaam at OT) is to provide leadership and help guide a youngster on how to work and act a pro; that's what you've been advocating all along.

Salaam had no problem coming to a rebuilding team like the Texans.
Those guys just need a paycheck.

Nobody is requiring the youngster to perform well right off the bat.
But Caserio ought to be able to find talent in the first round for Campen to develop further; otherwise neither guy is worth their salary.

The Texans aren't legitimate contender until 2024; you said so.

In the meantime, the youngster and the old pro at LT, along with a couple of FA upgrade at other positions along the Oline is better than one Tunsil.

What good is Tunsil when the pass rush get through the Center or LG, RG, or RT?

If you find a guy that is better than Howard, Scharping, Cannon, or Britt, bring him in.
The guys on the FA list that I had provided.
You act like all of these players can afford to choose the team they want to play for.

Hello, Lawson, KHG, etc.
In the past, guys like McKinney, Flanagan, Salaam, had no problem coming to a rebuild team; why should that change?

You can always add more Olinemen via the draft if you so choose; I'm not against it.

Or you mean Caserio can't find his own Brisiel, Winston, Spencer, Myers?
Why are you paying Caserio that much money then?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Yes, they do and when they find those guys they hold onto them unless they get a BOB type deal and even then most of the time they struggle to find another as good as the all pro they traded, or let go in fa.

Example, CIncy let Whitworth walk to the Rams. Cincy spent yrs trying to find their LT and their team/ol sucked for yrs. Meanwhile the Rams have been regular playoff participants. The DB trade is another example. This should be a cautionary for some, but apparently it's not for some. Luckily Caserio doesn't fall into this group.
None of the Olinemen from the 2018 Chiefs team remain, except for the rookie Wylie (who is now a backup).
That includes first-team All-Pro Schwartz and first round pick Eric Fischer .
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Get him healthy and see how he does next season and then consider trading him. But if talent is added to the ol and they play much better next year, then why would you want to trade anybody off of an ol that's performing well build around your all pro lt, don't trade him. If the ol is still bad next yr then trade him. I don't consider Christian to be serviceable. If he was he would have been starting last week. I also don't consider Howard to be a viable NFL LT candidate.
Because you can get more bang for the buck with two good Olinemen (at other positions) and a rookie LT (plus a veteran that may also serves as the swing tackle.)

The other guys (whoever left on the line) can be back ups.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
Because you can get more bang for the buck with two good Olinemen (at other positions) and a rookie LT (plus a veteran that may also serves as the swing tackle.)

The other guys (whoever left on the line) can be back ups.
Do you have an Alex Gibbs coaching them?
 

vtech9

Veteran
I watched a replay of the game, and from what I could tell, Howard looked to do a pretty good job at LT. IIRC, all of the pressure either came up the middle or from the right side. I don't remember much of the run game, but I do recall a couple of plays where Howard drove his guy 4 or 5 yards downfield. However, I don't think the C or LG moved their guys off of the LOS.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Who's saying anything about Tunsil's injury?
Definitely not me.

Cannon (or any old guy in the mould of Salaam at OT) is to provide leadership and help guide a youngster on how to work and act a pro; that's what you've been advocating all along.

Salaam had no problem coming to a rebuilding team like the Texans.
Those guys just need a paycheck.

Nobody is requiring the youngster to perform well right off the bat.
But Caserio ought to be able to find talent in the first round for Campen to develop further; otherwise neither guy is worth their salary.

The Texans aren't legitimate contender until 2024; you said so.

In the meantime, the youngster and the old pro at LT, along with a couple of FA upgrade at other positions along the Oline is better than one Tunsil.

What good is Tunsil when the pass rush get through the Center or LG, RG, or RT?

If you find a guy that is better than Howard, Scharping, Cannon, or Britt, bring him in.
The guys on the FA list that I had provided.
You act like all of these players can afford to choose the team they want to play for.

Hello, Lawson, KHG, etc.
In the past, guys like McKinney, Flanagan, Salaam, had no problem coming to a rebuild team; why should that change?

You can always add more Olinemen via the draft if you so choose; I'm not against it.

Or you mean Caserio can't find his own Brisiel, Winston, Spencer, Myers?
Why are you paying Caserio that much money then?
This is a bs argument.

You're solution is to get rid of Tunsil and hope you can get a guy as good. I showed you why to keep Tunsil and draft his successor, all the while building an ol of young guys around a young QB then move Tunsil later if you need the cap. But hey let's trade the best ol on a crappy ol right now so we can get more picks and get more of the ol play like we've seen the last month or so. Brilliance at work.

I'm just glad Caserio is making this call and not you. If they did what you want then welcome to the Carr yrs. You would think that having DB would have taught you that value of the LT position. But I know you can't teach the man who knows everything anything.

With this I'm done.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
This is a bs argument.

You're solution is to get rid of Tunsil and hope you can get a guy as good. I showed you why to keep Tunsil and draft his successor, all the while building an ol of young guys around a young QB then move Tunsil later if you need the cap. But hey let's trade the best ol on a crappy ol right now so we can get more picks and get more of the ol play like we've seen the last month or so. Brilliance at work.

I'm just glad Caserio is making this call and not you. If they did what you want then welcome to the Carr yrs. You would think that having DB would have taught you that value of the LT position. But I know you can't teach the man who knows everything anything.

With this I'm done.
My argument is that you only pay to keep a Franchise LT.
Tunsil is weak in the run game.
He's pretty good in pass pro, but not elite.
Nobody is untouchable unless he's that good.

If you follow the Pats, you know they don't bring back all the guys.

They traded Brandon Cooks.
They made no attempt to resign Nate Solder (because that would require a huge contract).

I'm sure there are other examples.

The Chiefs are another example that I had mentioned.

.....

But I know you're just vehement about this issue because you have a man crush on Tunsil.

Some of us don't and we think there are more than one way to skin the cat.

Let's just leave it at that.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I watched a replay of the game, and from what I could tell, Howard looked to do a pretty good job at LT. IIRC, all of the pressure either came up the middle or from the right side. I don't remember much of the run game, but I do recall a couple of plays where Howard drove his guy 4 or 5 yards downfield. However, I don't think the C or LG moved their guys off of the LOS.
I'm only watching the highlights on YouTube for a few times recently.

I'll spend more time on the game later.

What do you see here:
Start of the second quarter.
Both tackles were pushed into Tyrod.
The RDE (on Howard) was the one that got the sack.

On the next play, he got beat but Taylor was able to get the ball out right quick for the TD.
...

4th Qtr
2:48
3rd and 1
Run play for Burkhead.
The Center was destroyed, but the double-team LT/LG couldn't move the defender off the line either.
Burkhead lost a yard and a half.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
My argument is that you only pay to keep a Franchise LT.
Tunsil is weak in the run game.
He's pretty good in pass pro, but not elite.
Nobody is untouchable unless he's that good.

If you follow the Pats, you know they don't bring back all the guys.

They traded Brandon Cooks.
They made no attempt to resign Nate Solder (because that would require a huge contract).

I'm sure there are other examples.

The Chiefs are another example that I had mentioned.

.....

But I know you're just vehement about this issue because you have a man crush on Tunsil.

Some of us don't and we think there are more than one way to skin the cat.

Let's just leave it at that.
BS

How many years did Matt Light play LT for the Pats? Solder?

How many years was Fisher the Chiefs lt? The only reason Fisher got cut is because he tore his Achilles.

Agreed, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Your way is more riskier tham my way.

Tunsil is an elite pass protector. You saying he's not is laughable. You don't get to the pro bowl without being an elite pass protector and a generally top 5-8 LT.
That's a fact, but carry on.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
BS

How many years did Matt Light play LT for the Pats? Solder?

How many years was Fisher the Chiefs lt? The only reason Fisher got cut is because he tore his Achilles.

Agreed, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Your way is more riskier tham my way.

Tunsil is an elite pass protector. You saying he's not is laughable. You don't get to the pro bowl without being an elite pass protector and a generally top 5-8 LT.
That's a fact, but carry on.
Matt Light was willing to take less money to play for Belichik and Brady.

His salary was chump change as compared to other guys like McNeil, for example.


 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Matt Light was willing to take less money to play for Belichik and Brady.

His salary was chump change as compared to other guys like McNeil, for example.


What's your point

Did Light get a 2nd contract.

Why yes I believe he did. Solder did too. Scharneccia, just like Gibbs valued the LT position. Gibbs even talked the Broncos into a Tunsil type trade for Zimmerman. There's a bunch of examples.

I'm done here if you cant admit this or are going to move the goalposts. I'm finding it rather boring now. Even though I enjoyed the back and forth earlier today.

Tell you what , lets agree to disagree and you not startup anymore gameday threads.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
What's your point

Did Light get a 2nd contract.

Why yes I believe he did. Solder did too. Scharneccia, just like Gibbs valued the LT position. Gibbs even talked the Broncos into a Tunsil type trade for Zimmerman. There's a bunch of examples.

I'm done here if you cant admit this or are going to move the goalposts. I'm finding it rather boring now. Even though I enjoyed the back and forth earlier today.

Tell you what , lets agree to disagree and you not startup anymore gameday threads.
Is there a rule that prohibits me from starting a game day thread?

At any rate, I didn't start any game day thread; one of the mods just made it the game day thread.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Is there a rule that prohibits me from starting a game day thread?

At any rate, I didn't start any game day thread; one of the mods just made it the game day thread.
There's no rule

It's just that I have to take you off of ignore. I guess that's my problem.

Problem solved
 
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