Texansballer74
The Marine
There's a thread on this already.
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Watson & Tunsil Contracts
- Thread starter amazing80
- Start date
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
That's the issue.....you mortgaged 2 drafts for this LT and didn't lock him up the moment he signed. If it were me, I walk away knowing I'm giving too much for no guarantees. Now, the Texans must be hoping he doesn't demand too much, if he does and they do not pay his ransom.....he walks. That becomes catastrophic. If he does sign and it winds up costing them, say 22M per season, then he has to elevate his game to #1 LT in the NFL to justify the cap hit.
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maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Texans were going to have to mortgage two drafts picks anyway for any decent LT. Also this idea of just because you make someone the top paid doesn’t fit with the modern NFL. Did Trent Brown have to become number 1 when they paid him, or Russel Wilson when he was made top QB, Zeke reset the market and he wasn’t even top 3 in 2019 after getting paid. Also how about next time when a new LT becomes the highest paid of all time, does Tunsil just have to become the number 2 now?
People here seem to be judging the Texans and how good their players have to preform to justify their contracts by different standards than others players and teams are judged.
Rich Schmidt
Myopicone
And then DW4 gets killed by Davenport on the left side again, a rookie learning? I know the issue was the Texans to start with for not addressing the line, but many GM's make deals and pay the guy later which will happen here. If we have any chance, DW4 needs to feel and be protected so he only uses those traffic avoidance gifts when he has to versus having his radar up every play. I don't think anyone supporting the trade thought we would get a discount from Tunsil, but finally getting the OL in shape, franchise QB, gives solid building blocks. By no means do I defend BOB on getting value from Clowney, Nuk, and this one was expensive as we knew we would have to pay up, but really getting DW4 pounded another year probably makes him want to leave more than Nuk leaving. Remember as you lay in a hospital bed you have time to reflect
Right they really had to get him on the dotted line for a contact extention after investing the two first round picks in him which is much different than investing one or even two first round picks in rookie thru the draft who'd automatially be under contract for 5 years per the CBA.
No doubt that O'Brien & Co are now at Tunsil and his agents mercy. They've really got a very firm grasp on O'Briens ying-yang.
Frankly personally I feel like a fool now for griping about former GM Gain drafting Howard instead of Dillard last year who looks like he
(Howard) might be the better prospect now after all. Anyway I seriously doubt Gain would have made the same stunningly bone-head moves that the inept rookie GM O'Brien made. Oh Jeez if only for the good ole days when Brian Gain was our GM.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Exactly b/c every player that leaves or we trade is the greatest and we should’ve gotten this...& every player we bring in sucks, is past their prime, not good enough, and we overpaid for.
We can only speculate, but the idea that Davenport along with the rookies and Johnson would have been as good is ludicrous.
What makes you think that D-Hop would still be here? Do you think OB would have gotten smarter?
Regardless, the Texans need to brush up on their negotiating skills anyway. See the Clowney & Hopkins trade.
If we keep "winning" there's no way we're going to get a guy who should have been the #1 overall draft pick without trading two firsts & them some. So to me, this "mortgage the future" talk is moot.
As far as not getting a new contract. Clowney didn't get a new contract. Hopkins didn't get a new contract. That's pretty damn standard with trades I dont know why everybody is acting like this is not the way business is done, especially a week before the season starts.
Maybe if Gain would have been more aggressive BO'b wouldn't have fired him, Clowney & Hop wouldn't have been traded for a bag of chips. & we wouldn't have drafted two tackles & signed three diring last offseason. Maybe steelbtexan is right & Rick & Gaine screwed the pooch & BO'b is trying to clean it up.
But like I said, Texans need to learn how to negotiate. far as I know they're ready to make Tunsil the highest paid player in the league. But if for some reason he wants more, he's under contract then we can tag him for 2 years. Ha can play or lose a lot of money.
Max
Veteran
The Comprehensive Guide to 10 years of first round trades - National Football Post
10 years, 73 trades: Tony Villiotti breaks them down
nationalfootballpost.com
From 2005 - 2014, there were 10 trades involving players traded for 1st round draft picks listed on the link above.
1. Randy Moss had 4 years left on his contract when the Vikes traded him to Oakland
2. Deion Branch signed a new contract w/ the Seahawks
3. Jared Allen signed a new contract w/ the Vikings
4. Roy Williams signed a new contract w/ Dallas
5. Jason Peters signed a new contract w/ the Eagles
6. Jay Cutler had 3 years left on his contract when the Broncos traded him to Chicago
7. Richard Seymour had 1 year left on his contract when the Pats traded him to Oakland
8. Carson Palmer signed a new contract w/ the Raiders
9. Darelle Revis signed a new contract w/ the Bucs
10. Percy Harvin signed a new contract w/ Seattle
List Of Traded Future NFL Draft Picks
Track every traded pick from the next three NFL Drafts! NFLTR's list is consistently updated throughout the year as picks are swapped. Bookmark this page for the latest NFL trades!
nfltraderumors.co
2019 trades involving players traded for 1st round draft picks
1. Khalil Mack signed a new contract w/ the Raiders
2. Minkah Fitzpatrick had 3 years left (4 w/ 5th year option) on his contract when Miami traded him to the Steelers
3. Jalen Ramsey had 1 year left (2 w/ 5th year option) on his contract when the Jags traded him to the Rams
4. DeForest Buckner signed a new contract w/ the Colts
5. Stefon Diggs had 4 years left on his contract when the Vikes trades him to the Bills
Tunsil had 2 years left on his contract and it was for two firsts where most of these trades were only for one first. There's a couple of trades in here that weren't extensions that you could compare the Tunsil trade to but I would make the argument that Tunsil's is one of the worst and I certainly wouldn't say that it's standard to not extend a player when involving 1st round picks.
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Most listed above were not caught in the uncertainty of a new CBA, and the realistic anticipation that a wait for signing a contract later would offer them distinct leverage and marked potential benefit to their bottom line. significantly.The Comprehensive Guide to 10 years of first round trades - National Football Post
10 years, 73 trades: Tony Villiotti breaks them down
From 2005 - 2014, there were 10 trades involving players traded for 1st round draft picks listed on the link above.
1. Randy Moss had 4 years left on his contract when the Vikes traded him to Oakland
2. Deion Branch signed a new contract w/ the Seahawks
3. Jared Allen signed a new contract w/ the Vikings
4. Roy Williams signed a new contract w/ Dallas
5. Jason Peters signed a new contract w/ the Eagles
6. Jay Cutler had 3 years left on his contract when the Broncos traded him to Chicago
7. Richard Seymour had 1 year left on his contract when the Pats traded him to Oakland
8. Carson Palmer signed a new contract w/ the Raiders
9. Darelle Revis signed a new contract w/ the Bucs
10. Percy Harvin signed a new contract w/ Seattle
List Of Traded Future NFL Draft Picks
Track every traded pick from the next three NFL Drafts! NFLTR's list is consistently updated throughout the year as picks are swapped. Bookmark this page for the latest NFL trades!
2019 trades involving players traded for 1st round draft picks
1. Khalil Mack signed a new contract w/ the Raiders
2. Minkah Fitzpatrick had 3 years left (4 w/ 5th year option) on his contract when Miami traded him to the Steelers
3. Jalen Ramsey had 1 year left (2 w/ 5th year option) on his contract when the Jags traded him to the Rams
4. DeForest Buckner signed a new contract w/ the Colts
5. Stefon Diggs had 4 years left on his contract when the Vikes trades him to the Bills
Tunsil had 2 years left on his contract and it was for two firsts where most of these trades were only for one first. There's a couple of trades in here that weren't extensions that you could compare the Tunsil trade to but I would make the argument that Tunsil's is one of the worst and I certainly wouldn't say that it's standard to not extend a player when involving 1st round picks.
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maverick512000
Hall of Fame
That would be the same Gaine that didn't make any deal with Clowney and then tagged him giving him all the power and putting the Texans at his mercy right?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
In fact if you go back, the last two CBAs in 06 and 11 were even different from this one. The 06 one was just an extension of the 93 CBA and everyone knew it was just a temporary band-aid and in 11 the owners had an unspoken agreement NOT to give big contracts because they and Goodell wanted to LOWER the salary cap and how much players would be paid. If you look at the history of that year 2011 actually had no salary cap but it was one of the lowest spending years in the NFL because of that agreement. It was so obvious that the players union filed a grievance because of it and resulted in the 2011 lockout. But hey that doesn't fit the narrative so lets just ignore that part.
Max
Veteran
From the players perspective, that's why you don't sign an extension at the time of the trade. From the team's perspective, it's why you either require the extension or you don't do the trade, or you make sure you're trading for someone with 4 years on their contract like Diggs. In recent trades, our trade for Tunsil is only comparable to the Ramsey trade who the Rams gave up similar compensation for and Ramsey only had 2 years left on his contract. The Rams are also taking criticism for giving Ramsey so much leverage and putting the team in such a poor position to either pay a ransom or see the trade compensation they paid wasted on a 2 year contract.
Yes sir that was an ill advised move but not the disasters that the Tunsil & Hopkins deals were which were moves that firmly established Bill O'Brien at the very top of the list among the most incompetent of NFL GMs in league history.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Texans must come to the table this season and hand Tunsil an offer that gives him an average annual salary of 21M. Watt got a 6 YR / 100M+ contract and I think Tunsil will need a 5 YR / 105M contract if they want to put a rest to this back and forth. Either lose him now via trade or get him signed and move on. Tunsil is not sweating this process nor does he have to since OB seemed fit to put him in the position of power.
Plan the draft to fill the trench needs which would help this season going forward.
Watson must be signed next season when the cap gets much healthier.
Plan the draft to fill the trench needs which would help this season going forward.
Watson must be signed next season when the cap gets much healthier.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Hopkins deal I will agree was a bad move, Tunsil deal I think was a great move given the circumstances. You may disagree but really there is no evidence that it was bad beyond that OB did it. In fact Rams did the exact same deal for Ramsey but yeah that little fact gets ignored.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Keep in mind with the nation wide lock down everything is moving at a much slower pace. NFL orgs are all working from home and honestly I expect this off season to get extended because teams are having so much trouble with communication and schedules.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Just curious as to how you will rate this trade if OB fails to get Tunsil signed.
Texansballer74
The Marine
I would rate it as a big fat F. A move that should get him terminated immediately.
Depends. Does he tag him & does Tunsil play on the tag?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Exactly, people are acting like if we don't sign Tunsil he walks but we have him locked up for next season for sure and then we can tag him after that. He can always choose not to play on the tag but that's a risk with every player and soon teams are going to stop rewarding that behavior. People keep going on and on and on and on about how he should have signed him to a new deal but nobody seems to have answer about what to do if you didn't get Tunsil because he wouldn't sign a new deal. Roll with what you have and let Watson take another 60+ sacks? Maybe move Howard to LT and then not only get Watson killed but ruin Howard's career as well? So easy to sit here, with hindsight, and say what they should have done but nobody had an answer at LT when OB made this deal.
My grandfather use to have a saying "Do something now and we'll decide if it was the right thing later."
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You already rated it as an F anyway.
Texansballer74
The Marine
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
If Tunsil sits/holds-out.....I can assure you that Cal and OB are not going to be the first NFL team to let a high profile player sit out for season as they try to pressure him to come in and play.
All I'm saying, if Cal and OB want to put an end to this potential shite-show, they'll sit down with Tunsil and make him the highest paid LT in the game instead of playing the back and forth. Tunsil wants 20M per season and the Texans offered 18.5M.....1.5M per season shouldn't be a deal breaker at this juncture. Paying this man now may just pay dividends next off-season when prospective FA's can start talking with teams.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Ok I'll take your word for it because I don't want to dig through old posts. So let me ask you what do you grade it:
When it was made:
Currently after a season:
If we have to tag him:
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
So people talk about how bad at making deals the Texans are then they say the Texans should come in with their highest offer first? And then they should just give him whatever he wants? Not sure I would call that good negotiating. In fact that sounds more like a panic move than anything the Texans have ever done.
We did that with Brown. Worked out ok for us I thought. But since then if a player threatens to hold out, he goes to a dream situation & we get peanuts.
Texansballer74
The Marine
I didn’t grade it back then because it wasn’t asked.
And again I didn’t like the trade mainly because you didn’t lock him up at that specific time. You made a hasty decision because you said ( out of the horse’s mouth) it was very difficult training up young left tackles. Paraphrasing of course.
Now we’re about to over pay for a joker that wasn’t the best in the business. That freaking money we gave Cobb could’ve went to Nuk. Who some believe is the best receiver in the game.
Y’all continue to say we can tag him. Well he has the right to refuse that tag and holdout.
Which tells me something else is going on. If that's all Tunsil wanted it'd probably be done. But it's not. & he's probably wanting it all guaranteed or some crazy structure that puts the Texans in a bind.
But I don't know
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
And again you ignore a direct question. Three direct questions in this case. It's because if you are honest you will grade it with an F thus proving what I said before about how you already graded it an F when the trade was made.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Right again, everyone hears "He wants this much a year" and think that's all there is to it. It's not, there is a HUGE difference between 20 million a year and 20 million a year guaranteed.
badboy
Hall of Fame
The NFL's top-25 offensive linemen through Week 15 | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF
PFF's Ben Linsey sorts out the top-25 performers along the offensive line with two weeks left in the 2019 NFL season.
2019
At least there's two former Texans (drafted by that boy Rick) on the list.The NFL's top-25 offensive linemen through Week 15 | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF
PFF's Ben Linsey sorts out the top-25 performers along the offensive line with two weeks left in the 2019 NFL season.www.pff.com
2019
HMMMM ..... someone with an overinflated ego and an underwhelming ability to focus .... (count)? .... is conspicuous by his absence !!! That's the bad news .... the good news is, at least we were able to get rid of one of the best receivers, and the best pair of hands I've ever seen .... to accommodate his upcoming salary demands ! Boy, are we ever fortunate .... WHEW !!
Max
Veteran
Actually, you said that it's standard to not extend players which isn't accurate. But that's cool.
2 that he let walk.
but but according to some the Reason we couldnt get much for Hopkins is that he wanted a new contract. Ive heard over and over how no team is going to spend big time draft capital on a player they have to pay a top tier salary to.
Tunsil trade gets a F- because they didn’t even try and redo his contract. had they done it at the time of the trade they Probably could of gotten him a lot cheaper. they Could of payed him more in line with his performance up to that date.
Tunsil, the No. 13 overall selection in the 2016 NFL Draft, ranks 21st among the 87 tackles with 400-plus pass-blocking snaps over the past two seasons in pass-blocking grade (79.8). In his three years in the NFL, Tunsil has yet to earn a single-season pass-blocking grade below 74.5.
Where Tunsil struggles is the run game. The 6-foot-5, 315-pounder ranks 50th in run-blocking grade (53.8) among the 64 NFL offensive tackles with 400-plus run-blocking snaps over the past two seasons. He’s also yet to earn a single-season run-blocking grade above 62.3 in his career.
Now they have no choice but to make him the highest paid OL in history or franchise him for the next two years.
Tunsil, the No. 13 overall selection in the 2016 NFL Draft, ranks 21st among the 87 tackles with 400-plus pass-blocking snaps over the past two seasons in pass-blocking grade (79.8). In his three years in the NFL, Tunsil has yet to earn a single-season pass-blocking grade below 74.5.
Where Tunsil struggles is the run game. The 6-foot-5, 315-pounder ranks 50th in run-blocking grade (53.8) among the 64 NFL offensive tackles with 400-plus run-blocking snaps over the past two seasons. He’s also yet to earn a single-season run-blocking grade above 62.3 in his career.
Now they have no choice but to make him the highest paid OL in history or franchise him for the next two years.
badboy
Hall of Fame
That is an oversimplification of Hopkins demand. He not only wanted more money but he wanted it with three years left on his contract. Whether you or I think that is significant is immaterial. If I understand you, Hopkins value has little to do with Tunsil's. I am more worried about a contract for Watson than I am for Tunsil. I would be okay with a trade that included Mekhi Becton or T. Williams plus other components. Tunsil is going to be very good very long time. I would rather have him on my team But if not we should get a huge offer for him.
badboy
Hall of Fame
there is absolutely nothing to support the first paragraph in your post. It is strictly your opinion. It may be a Correct or it could be 100% incorrect. We have no way of knowing whether the Texans tried to renegotiate or not. It just does not exist as known evidence. Even if they did he could have Nancy Reagan'ed them. Most evidence supports Watson and Tunsil waiting until after TV rights settled and cap space under new CBA known. That makes more sense than you assuming no attempt to extend his contract. The "no extension, no trade" you bring up, is your POV. Mine is better to protect #4 2019 and 2020 plus control Tunsil 4 total years was worth it. We did pay too much but at some point I moved on.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
Tunsil I think we should do a 7-year deal. He is really young and LT's last a long time. Howard Is the perfect RT. Don't mess with a good situation. Do a 7 year 142 Million dollar contract. 20, 18, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23. Do 56 Million (first 3 seasons) fully guaranteed. That’s just over 20 mil per year average. After Three years our risk goes way down.