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Watson or Mahomes? Who is more exciting?

dream_team

Hall of Fame
I would respect YOUR takes on the all-22. But I've watched too many all-22 film this season to agree with "some folks." And my observations spill over to Watson in the shotgun, where there were too many opportunities missed to ignore.
Curious on your take on this. Why are the Chiefs one of the best screen teams in the league, while the Texans are one of the worst?
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Curious on your take on this. Why are the Chiefs one of the best screen teams in the league, while the Texans are one of the worst?
Simple.....Speed. Between Watkins, Hill & Hardman, not sure there's a guy they have on the outside that runs above 4.3. Then you have Kelce..the eternal mismatch running in the range of 4.5. As a defense you have to respect all that, especially when you have a guy under center capable of hitting any of those guys from anywhere on the field.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
Simple.....Speed. Between Watkins, Hill & Hardman, not sure there's a guy they have on the outside that runs above 4.3. Then you have Kelce..the eternal mismatch running in the range of 4.5. As a defense you have to respect all that, especially when you have a guy under center capable of hitting any of those guys from anywhere on the field.
If speed is so important to a successful screen game, why do majority of our screens go to Nuk?
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
If speed is so important to a successful screen game, why do majority of our screens go to Nuk?
B/c he's been the only 1 consistently on the field of all of our outside skill guys lol. The closest WFV has come to playing a full season was his rookie year...13 games. Nuk to date has only missed 2 games his entire 7 year career. Then the TE's..another oft injured group that was taken out of the passing game period to help with blocking just 1 year ago...None are fast either. The only guy with remotely any speed that consistently played was Miller.....but he's not all that great as a pass catcher either.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
B/c he's been the only 1 consistently on the field of all of our outside skill guys lol. The closest WFV has come to playing a full season was his rookie year...13 games. Nuk to date has only missed 2 games his entire 7 year career. Then the TE's..another oft injured group that was taken out of the passing game period to help with blocking just 1 year ago...None are fast either. The only guy with remotely any speed that consistently played was Miller.....but he's not all that great as a pass catcher either.
IMO, when I re-watch these screenplays on the All-22... it's just flat out ugly. I feel like the play design is a head scratcher and the execution is horrible. Then, you add on the fact we're utilizing the wrong personnel. When you think about guys that are good at YAC, as good as Nuk is, he doesn't come to mind. You think of Fuller, Carter, Coutee, Duke, or even Stills.
 

santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
IMO, when I re-watch these screenplays on the All-22... it's just flat out ugly. I feel like the play design is a head scratcher and the execution is horrible. Then, you add on the fact we're utilizing the wrong personnel. When you think about guys that are good at YAC, as good as Nuk is, he doesn't come to mind. You think of Fuller, Carter, Coutee, Duke, or even Stills.
Even Jones has shown in his limited minutes that he's good in YAC.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I would respect YOUR takes on the all-22. But I've watched too many all-22 film this season to agree with "some folks." And my observations spill over to Watson in the shotgun, where there were too many opportunities missed to ignore.
I appreciate your vote of confidence, but honestly I'm just a fan. I do plan on getting all-22 access just to study this stuff. I'd like to do a weekly thing next season where we study games together, or at least key parts of games.

That said, there are a lot of good football minds - both fans and media - that break these plays down and are revealing the same tendencies in O'Brien's offense. This scheme lacks a clear identity. O'Brien calls it a "game plan offense", but what exactly does that mean? I understand the concept, but it also means he's not consistently running the same designs and is constantly trying to out-think opposing DCs (according to his own words). You can get away with that mentality when you've got Tommy GOAT at QB, but I don't think Deshaun is nearly at the same point of processing information in real time.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I appreciate your vote of confidence, but honestly I'm just a fan. I do plan on getting all-22 access just to study this stuff. I'd like to do a weekly thing next season where we study games together, or at least key parts of games.

That said, there are a lot of good football minds - both fans and media - that break these plays down and are revealing the same tendencies in O'Brien's offense. This scheme lacks a clear identity. O'Brien calls it a "game plan offense", but what exactly does that mean? I understand the concept, but it also means he's not consistently running the same designs and is constantly trying to out-think opposing DCs (according to his own words). You can get away with that mentality when you've got Tommy GOAT at QB, but I don't think Deshaun is nearly at the same point of processing information in real time.

Deshaun Watson threw the ball away ... backwards

Watson is a great quarterback. But even great quarterbacks do some very dumb things. Even though he got the win this week, Watson’s blunder was pretty up there, when he fumbled the ball against the Chargers. It wasn’t just that he fumbled, though. It was how he fumbled.With Joey Bosa bearing down on him on a second-and-7 from Houston’s 39-yard line, Watson looked to Duke Johnson for a screen pass behind the line of scrimmage. But Johnson had Desmond King coming at him with a full head of steam and, not wanting to put his running back or himself in unnecessary danger, he threw it away.Problem is, he threw it away behind the line of scrimmage — and backwards.


Yup, that’s always a fumble. This one was recovered and advanced by the Chargers, who took a 7-0 lead on the ensuing possession.On one hand, Watson choosing to not take a sack AND to not put Johnson in line for a massive hit from King were good decisions. Too many quarterbacks dump the ball without looking at the position their potential receiver will be in once they’ve caught it. On the other hand, MAYBE throw it somewhere else next time.

***************************************

I remember reviewing this "screen" play on all-22. You can't tell here, but virtually the entire D shifted left........and yes, Coute was open with no one in front of him. Basic processing, not scheme run amuck. Although Watson was moving to the right, his tunnel vision processing led him to ignore Coute and force the ball to a receiver that was not open.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
IMO, when I re-watch these screenplays on the All-22... it's just flat out ugly. I feel like the play design is a head scratcher and the execution is horrible. Then, you add on the fact we're utilizing the wrong personnel. When you think about guys that are good at YAC, as good as Nuk is, he doesn't come to mind. You think of Fuller, Carter, Coutee, Duke, or even Stills.
Our 1st TD against the Chiefs in the playoff game to Stills was a DIRECT result of them reacting up to our "ugly" screen game. We showed them some screen action to Fuller, & Stills ran right past Mathieu and the safeties. So I guess my question to you is what kind of success do you expect for us to have on screen plays b/c obviously it has had some modicum of for the Chiefs to have bit up on that action like they did.

As with all things, its not as simple as calling a screen play & it working. Gotta have execution...Gotta be called at the right time....Gotta be shown in a way where the defense thinks you're doing something else that they fear. Aside from that, look at who you listed.

Fuller - has been barely active for 10 games every season
Carter - your 4th WR & you're not typically running screens for that guy on your roster
Coutee - Hasn't shown he knows what he's doing out there... oft injured...but also hasn't shown he's "good at YAC" in the pros either.
Duke - just got here, but got a few this year & fared pretty good.
Stills - just got here , but got a few this year too...Don't recall him faring all that well at those actually.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
Our 1st TD against the Chiefs in the playoff game to Stills was a DIRECT result of them reacting up to our "ugly" screen game. We showed them some screen action to Fuller, & Stills ran right past Mathieu and the safeties. So I guess my question to you is what kind of success do you expect for us to have on screen plays b/c obviously it has had some modicum of for the Chiefs to have bit up on that action like they did.
Ah yes, that was a great counter play call by BOB. If you're saying we ran crappy screens all season long so that we could hit them with this in the playoffs... i'm just kidding. BTW, are you suggesting we DON'T have an "ugly" screen game?

As with all things, its not as simple as calling a screen play & it working. Gotta have execution...Gotta be called at the right time....Gotta be shown in a way where the defense thinks you're doing something else that they fear.
Agree 100%. This is what I'd like to understand. From my untrained eye, it's all of the above.

Aside from that, look at who you listed.

Fuller - has been barely active for 10 games every season
Carter - your 4th WR & you're not typically running screens for that guy on your roster
Coutee - Hasn't shown he knows what he's doing out there... oft injured...but also hasn't shown he's "good at YAC" in the pros either.
Duke - just got here, but got a few this year & fared pretty good.
Stills - just got here , but got a few this year too...Don't recall him faring all that well at those actually.
To me, it's all about utilizing players at their strengths. Giving the ball to Nuk in space, hoping that he'll make people miss, is not a strength of his.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
IMO, when I re-watch these screenplays on the All-22... it's just flat out ugly. I feel like the play design is a head scratcher and the execution is horrible. Then, you add on the fact we're utilizing the wrong personnel. When you think about guys that are good at YAC, as good as Nuk is, he doesn't come to mind. You think of Fuller, Carter, Coutee, Duke, or even Stills.

Duke was really good in the screen game with the Browns. Here in Houston we just don't know how to properly run one. It's so predictable. That's why we suck at it
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
True, but a some folks analyzing the all-22 film are advising that often nobody is open when Watson hits his third step in the drop. That is scheme and WRs not getting separation.

Lots of blame to go around, tho'.

That said, nobody does it like Mahomes. That dude is a once-in-a-generation talent.

And lets not delude ourselves that O'Brien has nearly the offensive mind that Andy Reid has got. Reid is already HoF. O'Brien is a 6th year coach that can't get past the 2nd round of the playoffs and already has a historic playoff choke on his record.
I would respect YOUR takes on the all-22. But I've watched too many all-22 film this season to agree with "some folks." And my observations spill over to Watson in the shotgun, where there were too many opportunities missed to ignore.

I'm with Doc on this one …. watching the all22 , I have seen many instances where Watson has either passed on or missed those short / medium routes.

That's not to say the scheme is helping him or that there aren't times when he hits the top of his drop and nothing is open.

Both of these things are happening with regularity and that's why this offense is so boom or bust.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
IMO, when I re-watch these screenplays on the All-22... it's just flat out ugly. I feel like the play design is a head scratcher and the execution is horrible. Then, you add on the fact we're utilizing the wrong personnel. When you think about guys that are good at YAC, as good as Nuk is, he doesn't come to mind. You think of Fuller, Carter, Coutee, Duke, or even Stills.
We have only one screen. There are situations in the game where a high percentage of offenses will run a screen so defenses are looking for it.

Most offenses have several options for deploying those screens. The RB screen being the most common in its varying forms. Then the TE screen & its varying forms. Lastly the WR screen which had the least variation.

We only run the WR screen
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I appreciate your vote of confidence, but honestly I'm just a fan. I do plan on getting all-22 access just to study this stuff. I'd like to do a weekly thing next season where we study games together, or at least key parts of games.

That said, there are a lot of good football minds - both fans and media - that break these plays down and are revealing the same tendencies in O'Brien's offense. This scheme lacks a clear identity. O'Brien calls it a "game plan offense", but what exactly does that mean? I understand the concept, but it also means he's not consistently running the same designs and is constantly trying to out-think opposing DCs (according to his own words). You can get away with that mentality when you've got Tommy GOAT at QB, but I don't think Deshaun is nearly at the same point of processing information in real time.
^^^^
This

But if DW4 wants a Lombardi he has to learn to do these things.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Patrick Mahomes has a behind-the-back pass in his arsenal
February 2, 2020, 7:46 AM EST

According to James Palmer of NFL Network, Mahomes has a behind-the-back throw that he’d like to use in a game.
“[Mahomes] tries it all the time because he keeps lobbying for Coach Reid to put it in the system,” Chiefs quarterback Chad Henne told Palmer. “He tells Coach Reid, ‘I can option this way and then throw it back this way’, and I’m like, ‘Ahhh, let’s just take care of the ball.'”

The thing about Mahomes is that, even when he’s working his special brand of magic, he still takes care of the ball. He knows the limits of his uncanny physical abilities, and he rarely if ever tries to go beyond them.
So would he dare to attempt a behind-the-back throw?
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
PFT:

If you think Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes is good now, just wait until he has a little experience under his belt.

Mahomes said on the episode of HBO’s The Shop that will air on Saturday that he still feels like a relative novice when it comes to the finer points of the quarterback position, saying that figuring out the mental aspects of the game has only come recently.

“I didn’t understand how to read defenses until halfway through last year. I understood coverages, but how to be able to pick up little tendencies defenses do, stuff that Brady and them have done? I was just playing,” Mahomes said. “This year I could recognize more and more stuff. I think the more experience and the more I learn, I’ll be able to go out there and call plays and do that different stuff because I’ve seen it. I still think there’s a long way for me to go there. That’s where mentally I can get better. Physically, I think I’ve done a lot of stuff, worked on the fundamentals, but I think mentally I can still take my game to a whole different level.”

If Mahomes is right that he can take his game to a different level, that’s a scary thought for the rest of the league.
 


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