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Watson’s a top 5 qb. Do you agree?

mws said:
Every QB has growing pains. It is really is too early to predict with any accuracy what he will become.

Comparison of Watson's first 34 games to T. Brady (who many feel is the GOAT) first 32 games

D. Watson First 34 Games

2019: 11 Games, 249/361 69.0%, 20 TD, 7 INT, 103.4 QBR
2018: 16 Games, 345/505 68.3%, 26 TD, 9 INT, 103.1 QBR
2017: 7 Games, 126/204 61.8%, 19 TD, 8 INT, 103.0 QBR
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Total: 34 Games, 720/1,070 67.3%, 65 TD, 24 INT

T. Brady First 32 Games

2002: 16 Games, 373/601 62.1%, 28 TD, 14 INT, 85.7 QBR
2001: 15 Games, 264/413 63.9%, 18 TD, 12 INT, 86.5 QBR
2000: 1 Games, 1/3 33.3%, 0 TD, 0 INT, 42.4 QBR
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Total: 32 Games, 638/1,017 62.7%, 46 TD, 26 INT

In 2 more games Watson has a better completion rate (67.3% to 62.7%) & threw 19 more TDs with 2 less INTs.
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Kinda an apples to oranges comparison as the league was so much different way back when , the evolution of defenses and they aren't remotely the same type of QB's.

Probably a fairer comparison is Russel Wilson. They play a very similar style of QB and the rules have been much the same since Wilson came into the league as they are today ….
 
austins23 said:
Utilize the RBs in the passing game more. Implement a dang screen pass to the RB that works. Get my 3rd WR matched up on a S or LB because of scheme.

TEs should be utilized lots more than they are. Fells has TDs but the past two games they have been invisible.

Just to start...
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I'm all for this and if all 3 Wr's are healthy it's a good plan. Since BoB wants to run the ball I would use more 12 personnel.. The problem with throwing the ball to the RB's is Hyde isn't a good receiver and when Duke is in the game the defense knows what is coming.

This is why if a RB that's well rounded falls to the bottom of the 3rd/top of the 4th this would be my pick. I really like Harris/ Akers/Miss. They're well rounded RB's and could really make this offense cook.

Biggest thing this offseason is ifarrone gets fired, he needs to become the new OL coach.
 
austins23 said:
Utilize the RBs in the passing game more. Implement a dang screen pass to the RB that works. Get my 3rd WR matched up on a S or LB because of scheme.
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Why do split Duke out wide? Have we ever thrown the ball to him split wide?

Has it ever worked to force that bad matchup?

I agree Duke should be used in the passing game, but out of the backfield. You see teams get RBs opportunity after opportunity from the backfield. But not us.
 
thunderkyss said:
Why do split Duke out wide? Have we ever thrown the ball to him split wide?

Has it ever worked to force that bad matchup?

I agree Duke should be used in the passing game, but out of the backfield. You see teams get RBs opportunity after opportunity from the backfield. But not us.
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This is what I was trying to convey... wheel routes, getting matched up on a slow LB..
 
steelbtexan said:
I'm all for this and if all 3 Wr's are healthy it's a good plan. Since BoB wants to run the ball I would use more 12 personnel.. The problem with throwing the ball to the RB's is Hyde isn't a good receiver and when Duke is in the game the defense knows what is coming.

This is why if a RB that's well rounded falls to the bottom of the 3rd/top of the 4th this would be my pick. I really like Harris/ Akers/Miss. They're well rounded RB's and could really make this offense cook.

Biggest thing this offseason is ifarrone gets fired, he needs to become the new OL coach.
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And if he ran more 21 personnel the D wouldn’t know if Duke was in for a pass or run. Simple things like this.
 
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ObsiWan said:
If by "style of play" you mean holding the ball and/or rolling out to extend plays, you're wrong. Russell Wilson, Brett Favre, and Drew Brees all won SB rings by using their mobility to extend plays.

If you mean something else, please explain.
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I mean making bad decisions like Favre did. I mean his 1st instinct when he feels pressure is to move to the right instead of stepping up into the pocket and delivering the ball. Brees/Wilson throw mainly from the pocket and only scramble when they are forced too. Like I said, Watson's 1st instinct is to scramble usually to his right at 1st signs of pressure. DC's that make him throw from the pocket and take this away from him usually have good games against him. Watch the Pats and see what they do as a template.
 
steelbtexan said:
I mean his 1st instinct when he feels pressure is to move to the right instead of stepping up into the pocket and delivering the ball.
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I agree he does this often & it really puts Howard in a bad spot. This is similar to what David Carr used to do.

Makes it look like the OL messer up, it will go down as a pressure given up & possibly a sack against him & there is literally nothing he can do about it.
 
ObsiWan said:
I'll have to re-watch some of the games 'cause I'm missing what you two are seeing. When I've seen him scramble it's because there's no "pocket" to step up into.
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Agree because he will sit back there holding on to the ball and look for the deep play if the line holds.
He usually tucks it and runs if the defense has crashed through which is as we know too often.
 
Texansphan said:
Agree because he will sit back there holding on to the ball and look for the deep play if the line holds.
He usually tucks it and runs if the defense has crashed through which is as we know too often.
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But every quarterback tends to do that when the protection is there. They're able to go through their progression/reads if the first option isn't there.
 
steelbtexan said:
Look at the beginning of the Baltimore game.
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I agree with you on this particular play, not Watson's best moment.

On his drop back, he's drifting left for some reason? I'm not sure why? He has a decent pocket, so really didn't have to move laterally. Maybe was trying to find a better passing lane? But by drifting left, the DE being blocked by Tunsil was able to apply some pressure, so Watson moved back to the right towards the center of the pocket. It looks like his eyes are still downfield, but he decides to hold on the the ball still. That's when the protection finally breaks down from both sides of the pocket and he's in trouble. He does step up into the pocket, but then pressure comes straight up the middle and now he's totally screwed. This is where he should realize this play is dead and he should either chuck it out of bounds or just eat the sack.

He had Stills coming open, and it looks like that's where he wanted to go initially. Not sure why he didn't pull the trigger? It wouldn't surprise me if Stills ran a different route than what DW4 was expecting? Before the snap, Stills was raising his hands as if he didn't know the play.

Another thought was DW4 was trying to look off the safety, waiting for Nuk to come open in the middle. This would explain why he was drifting left in the pocket, so he'd have a better angle for a pass to Nuk.

When DW4 moved back to the center of the pocket, he had Nuk open in the middle of the field... but maybe he had his eyes on the protection so didn't see him.

I'm sure Watson knows he screwed up on this play. You can tell by the disgust immediately right after he fumbled.
 
steelbtexan said:
These types of plays cant happen if the Texans are going to be contenders.

They seem to happen a couple of times every game. If they result in turnovers they usually lose. If they dont like last game they usually win. It's really pretty simple. You would think Jesusincleats would learn from this.
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We see this alot from special players. What makes them special, sometimes hurts them. You don't want to turn DW into Schaub, where once he feels a little bit of pressure, to chuck the ball out of bounds or "turtle" and take the sack. You don't want to turn him into Alex Smith, where he's always trying to get rid of the ball fast and ignoring plays downfield. You are then restricting alot of his capabilities. We've seen numerous times DW extending plays with his feet and finding open guys downfield.

I agree that this play was horrendous for DW. The big difference between you & I is you've given up on him as being able to learn to cutdown on these mistakes... I believe he can.
 
dream_team said:
We see this alot from special players. What makes them special, sometimes hurts them. You don't want to turn DW into Schaub, where once he feels a little bit of pressure, to chuck the ball out of bounds or "turtle" and take the sack. You don't want to turn him into Alex Smith, where he's always trying to get rid of the ball fast and ignoring plays downfield. You are then restricting alot of his capabilities. We've seen numerous times DW extending plays with his feet and finding open guys downfield.

I agree that this play was horrendous for DW. The big difference between you & I is you've given up on him as being able to learn to cutdown on these mistakes... I believe he can.
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Quoted for truth
 
tenor.gif


:cricket::cricket::cricket:

first they came for his passing velocity. then they came for his size. then they came for his running style. then they came for his intellect. then they came for his "anticipation passing". then they came for his "blitz reading". then they came for his "throw it in the middle of the field" ability.

then they had to be quiet.
 
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Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady outside the top ten.

are we seeing a changing of the guard?
 
DanielTx said:
Top 3 now
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It’s hard to believe that he could be/is a top 3QB in the league. Especially for the Texans. We aren’t allowed to have that type of luxury.

I enjoy seeing passionate fans rooting for the home team.

You can tell Watson worked hard this week. You saw some dink and dunk plays to open the field and then he took advantage. You can tell OB opened up the play book as I suspected he would ad he does towards the end of the season and in playoffs.

Team sport. Go Texans!
 
BattleBull said:
Pretty crazy. Looks like the pocket passer is all but dead. The top five are all mobile QBs who are accurate throwing on the run and escaping with their legs. Three years ago these guys were still seen as gimmick QBs, not anymore.
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I remember pretty vividly saying 2 or 3 years ago that the NFL was modernizing and that teams would be smart to adapt or die. I got laughed off the board by the "Old School Pocket QB" purists. Seeing that type of production among the young QBs is validating to say the least.

"The game is changing. Don't be a dinosaur."
 
Uncle Rico said:
I remember pretty vividly saying 2 or 3 years ago that the NFL was modernizing and that teams would be smart to adapt or die. I got laughed off the board by the "Old School Pocket QB" purists. Seeing that type of production among the young QBs is validating to say the least.

"The game is changing. Don't be a dinosaur."
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And that's the key, Belichick talked about it during the NFL 100 show. The game evolves and you need to adapt, if not you'll get left behind.
 
Uncle Rico said:
tenor.gif


:cricket::cricket::cricket:

first they came for his passing velocity. then they came for his size. then they came for his running style. then they came for his intellect. then they came for his "anticipation passing". then they came for his "blitz reading". then they came for his "throw it in the middle of the field" ability.

then they had to be quiet.
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excellent analogy..no more Kristallnacht although it is no comparison to that event. It would be sweet to see healthy #4 on field with all his offense healthy even if for only one game. This one almost got there except for Howard.
 
BattleBull said:
Pretty crazy. Looks like the pocket passer is all but dead. The top five are all mobile QBs who are accurate throwing on the run and escaping with their legs. Three years ago these guys were still seen as gimmick QBs, not anymore.
Click to expand...
Uncle Rico said:
I remember pretty vividly saying 2 or 3 years ago that the NFL was modernizing and that teams would be smart to adapt or die. I got laughed off the board by the "Old School Pocket QB" purists. Seeing that type of production among the young QBs is validating to say the least.

"The game is changing. Don't be a dinosaur."
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What is a "pocket passer" vs "mobile qb"?

If the pocket passer is all but dead, are you suggesting if a young Tom Brady or Peyton Manning was in the league, they wouldn't be a top QB in the league?

BTW, in my "football book", I consider Dak and Mahomes as pocket passers more than a mobile QB.
 
:brickwall: the day after we beat the patriots the media discusses Tom Brady performance and gives the Texans 10% respect. Same thing happened with kc. Maybe that’s why B.mack and the boys showed up in swat uniforms. The media doesn’t give them enough attention lol
 
dream_team said:
What is a "pocket passer" vs "mobile qb"?

If the pocket passer is all but dead, are you suggesting if a young Tom Brady or Peyton Manning was in the league, they wouldn't be a top QB in the league?

BTW, in my "football book", I consider Dak and Mahomes as pocket passers more than a mobile QB.
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How young? Peyton kinda sucked his first year; I think he led the league in INTs. The Pats' offense was built around Antowain Smith and Kevin Faulk his first few years starting. Not saying he sucked, he avg'd 3400/3500 yds passing his first three yrs. And I'd never bet that a Belichick team wouldn't be in the playoff race.
I guess I need to know what you mean by "top QB"; you talking fantasy stats or wins?
 
Uncle Rico said:
oh yeah and you know another hot topic that got trampled underfoot? The whole "Deshaun Watson sucks vs good defenses" narrative. Yup keep it up guys. I can go forever.
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Some were acting like year 3 DW was supposed to be perfect like year 15 Brees. We finally have a great QB, let the man grow and hopefully lead us to the promise land. Watson is not like Mitch Trubisky who legit can't read a defense and needs one read plays to get a simple 1st down.
 
UnlimitedTexan said:
Some were acting like year 3 DW was supposed to be perfect like year 15 Brees. We finally have a great QB, let the man grow and hopefully lead us to the promise land. Watson is not like Mitch Trubisky who legit can't read a defense and needs one read plays to get a simple 1st down.
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and somehow its "poor" Bill OBrien, he's had nothing to work with. SIX. YEARS. LATER.
 
dream_team said:
What is a "pocket passer" vs "mobile qb"?

If the pocket passer is all but dead, are you suggesting if a young Tom Brady or Peyton Manning was in the league, they wouldn't be a top QB in the league?

BTW, in my "football book", I consider Dak and Mahomes as pocket passers more than a mobile QB.
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https://insider.afca.com/the-top-4-types-of-quarterbacks-in-todays-offense/

GAME MANAGER
The first category and a very common one is the Game Manager. A modern example of a Game Manager would be Alex Smith of the Washington Redskins (formerly 49ers and Chiefs). He is somebody who has a high completion percentage, a high percentage of his passes are under twenty yards, and he could be dubbed a ‘Check down King.’ The Game Manager knows the ins and outs of the playbook, as all quarterbacks should, and does an excellent job of putting his offense in the right situation.
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A Game Manager is a guy who will check protections, opposite run calls, and typically run the play clock as low as he can because he needs all that time to make sure the play is the perfect choice. Coaches love this guy because they know what they are going to get, but this is also the guy who can be timid or afraid to take chances because it might not fit in with a scheme or what the offense typically tries to do. Not to say that an offense does not want big plays and touchdowns, but if a quarterback receives high praise for his ability to check it down to a running back for 5 yards, then it will block the thought and the response in his head to take shots when he has to react in a split second. These guys are smart, and they are rarely risk-takers. Much like Alex Smith, they will provide you with an excellent regular season, but if the team around him is not enough, then he will not be the guy to lead a team to a championship. The example of a Game Manager leading a sound team to the promised land, AJ McCarron in his time at Alabama. McCarron knew exactly what he needed to do, and that was be smart with the football. A three-year starter, with 77 career touchdowns and only 15 interceptions. He was a guy that knew if he could value the ball and let guys like TJ Yeldon, Eddie Lacy, Derrick Henry, and Trent Richardson do all the work while the defense holds up their end of the bargain, Bama would go on to be extremely successful. Game Managers have a place on teams that are extremely well rounded because they just have to be smart enough and calm enough to lead the ship.
IMPROVISOR
If the team lacks on defense or lacks on other positions at offense, there must be a guy behind center that can make things happen when everything goes awry. In steps Johnny Manziel, Baker Mayfield, Mike Vick, and Russell Wilson. The guys who can turn the worst of plays into a first down, an explosive play, or even a touchdown. These are the Improvisers. Guys like this are the ones that might not necessarily have the most extensive playbook knowledge, but oftentimes that does not matter. An Improviser is a quarterback that coaches curse, and then praise all in a matter of five seconds. Athleticism is the strongest trait in this type of quarterback, simply because when things go wrong he has to be able to get himself out of it using his feet before he can use his arm. Over the years of their football careers, they have developed a skill that is extremely difficult for quarterbacks to possess; throwing on the run. Scrambling is a strength of the Improviser, and in turn, it must become a strength of the receivers and offensive line, to stay active during scrambles.
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Receivers should be adept at getting open when the quarterback is moving, and they naturally will when the quarterback is an Improviser. Like all things, scrambling is a learned skill. It is imperative that the ten other players on the field are just as good at scramble drill as the quarterback is. It can be seen just how difficult of a skill this is when it is the backup quarterback that is the Improviser, and the starter is a more conventional quarterback. Once the starter is out and the Improviser is in, offensive linemen and receivers alike, often forget that they may have to continue a protection or continue a route sometimes twice as long as they normally would. These guys can get used to seeing the quarterback scramble, and the next thing they know the ball is thrown out of bounds and on to the next play. It seems that sometimes an Improviser would rather get sacked for a loss of 15, than to just simply throw the ball out of bounds. It can vary from person to person, but this could be a sign of the quarterback never wanting to give up on a play and being aggressive, or just lacking football knowledge in general, but that is something that could be known before he ever takes a real game snap.
POCKET PASSER
After talking about the guy who can run around in the backfield and avoid sack after sack to finally get a first down, it’s hard to imagine that somebody who runs a 5.0 40-yard dash could also be successful at the same position. Now under center, we have the Pocket Passer. Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, Tom Brady, are the kind of guys that are Pocket Passers. Not a lot of mobility, but often possess a great physical stature and a cannon for an arm. These are guys who are not afraid to throw the ball downfield, and often have an amazing understanding of defensive schemes as well as their own offensive schemes. They don’t exactly move very well outside of the pocket, because they don’t need to. Often times you will see Tom Brady go into the fetal position and take a sack instead of trying to improvise and make something happen with his feet. The reason behind this may be that because of his abilities with his arm, pre and post sack he has made, and will make, enough plays to make up for the couple of times that he may get sacked in a game. It is important for an Improviser to fight each play to make something happen, but a Pocket Passer knows that he will have more opportunities to be successful from the pocket later in the game.
RELATED ARTICLE: X’s & O’s: Dart Run Pass Option (RPO)
A Pocket Passer is a guy that you want to help build a great offensive line around, and only need to make sure you have decent receivers. Tom Brady is an excellent example of this. He is able to turn average receivers into very good ones, simply because he knows what is going on in the game, and is an accurate enough passer to put the ball where it needs to be to give the receiver a chance to make a play. Not always, but oftentimes this is a kind of guy who has a very high level of knowledge about perimeter play such as route concepts and coverage schemes, and may not know as much about the protections. That is why, as mentioned above, this is the kind of guy you would want to build an exceptional offensive line around, while simply having decent athletes on the outside. A Pocket Passer, as long as he is protected, will be able to drive an offense up and down the field and put up a lot of yards, and most importantly, a lot of points.
FOCAL POINT QB
Last but not least, we have the Focal Point quarterback. Most of the time this is a dual-threat guy. Since he is the Focal Point of the offense, he will also need to run the ball as well as throw, so to create a balance on offense. Quarterbacks that come to mind in a Focal Point role are guys like Lamar Jackson and Cam Newton. In 2017 Lamar Jackson averaged almost 17 carries per game while averaging almost 35 pass attempts per game. A Focal Point quarterback is the type of quarterback who is a good enough player that the coach will want the ball in his hands as many times as possible throughout the course of a game. A Focal Point has the potential to bust a big run or complete a big pass on any play of the game, which is why coaches like to make sure this guy has as many opportunities as possible to do so. He needs to either be big enough to make sure the amount of hits he will take does not affect him, like Cam Newton, or he needs to be fast enough and elusive enough to make sure he can avoid these hits, like Lamar Jackson.
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A Focal Point quarterback is great to build a system around and can win you a lot of games, but if he goes down or is out, a team might find themselves in a hole. Very rarely will a team have Cam Newton as their starter, and then have another Cam Newton to come off of the bench if the starter gets hurt. All around schemes and play calls can be severely damaged if a Focal Point is unable to play, which is why it is very important that they are either big, or fast, or even both.
These four categories of quarterbacks obviously are not enough to cover every single one, but it is a great way to group a guy into a category and know if he will fit a certain system. Coaches always have somewhat of an idea of the ideal quarterback that will help lead their team to pay dirt. At different levels of football, however, it can be difficult to recruit or even find the right type of guy for a certain system. Knowing how to plug a guy into a system and build around him is what makes an offense, and a team successful.
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A "mobile" QB could be just a guy that can take a step back, up or sideways in the pocket to buy him an extra second or get the 2 or 3 yards on a scramble for a first down. Pocket passing typically refers to guys who will stand in the face of pressure, diagnose the best play vs the coverage/defensive alignment and make the proper throw. This type of QB is slower than most offensive lineman, and so if the protection is not stellar, he will typically be a practice dummy VS todays hyper aggressive defensive play. The nomenclature of what "type" of QB you have may be as simple as the playstyle of the individual. Here we have a true FOCAL POINT QB with Deshaun Watson. He's lethal not only in the pocket, but also in the run game, and throwing on the move. Rumor is that the Bill OBrien Super Awesome EP System For Winners requires a pocket passing, 6'7 QB who can throw the ball 100 yards, has a 200 IQ, and can see into the future, so its cool to see Deshaun reinvent the game first hand.
 
Uncle Rico said:
and somehow its "poor" Bill OBrien, he's had nothing to work with. SIX. YEARS. LATER.
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In year 3 of his time with Watson, B'OB is slowly getting it finding that healthy mix of letting Watson be Watson and not putting him in harms way as DW is objectively more healthy this season that his 1st 2. If we win out its a 12-4 season that will be more impressive than the 2012 season when Schaub turned into a punk at the end of that season after being embarrassed by the Patriots
 
UnlimitedTexan said:
In year 3 of his time with Watson, B'OB is slowly getting it finding that healthy mix of letting Watson be Watson and not putting him in harms way as DW is objectively more healthy this season that his 1st 2. If we win out its a 12-4 season that will be more impressive than the 2012 season when Schaub turned into a punk at the end of that season after being embarrassed by the Patriots
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Its true. Bill OBrien just had his best game as a coach SIX YEARS into his coaching career so thats pretty cool I guess. Better late than never. All we have to worry about is if Deshaun Watson will ever "get it" ... some guys here think he's getting close. I hope they are right. :kitten:
 
Uncle Rico said:
All we have to worry about is if Deshaun Watson will ever "get it" ... some guys here think he's getting close. I hope they are right
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So... which side of the fence are you on? Should we compare Watson to 2018 Brees & Brady? Or should we hope he'll get to that level soon?
 
DanielTx said:
:brickwall: the day after we beat the patriots the media discusses Tom Brady performance and gives the Texans 10% respect. Same thing happened with kc. Maybe that’s why B.mack and the boys showed up in swat uniforms. The media doesn’t give them enough attention lol
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Had they beaten Baltimore, or at least had been competitive in that game the narrative would be vastly different. Sure, there would still have been the Brady is finished talk. But it would have been side by side with Houston is now the team to beat in the AFC.

As it is, the Texans still have work to do just to assure the AFC South crown, whatever that’s worth.
 
thunderkyss said:
So... which side of the fence are you on? Should we compare Watson to 2018 Brees & Brady? Or should we hope he'll get to that level soon?
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If you want to isolate THIS specific season without using past accolades and mystique to an advantage then Watson is better than both of those QBs this year by far IMO. Running a more complicated offense with porous OL play and flimsy defense. It’s borderline miraculous the team is 8-4. But yeah I forgot the kitty in the initial post I guess :kitten:
 
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