Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I am sure Lee knows the difference between vertical jump and arm length.
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Trade up for your QB
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
I am sure Lee knows the difference between vertical jump and arm length.
What suggestion did I make?
Texian
Hall of Fame
so you're just being argumentative, you're here for the purpose of arguing, you just want to argue?
Texian
Hall of Fame
What's it like to never have made a mistake? What's it like to make lots of mistakes and not being man enough to admit it?
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
What I do know is I'm in pretty good company when I can be in the room with 2 former gm's and see what an actual board looks like. Not the one people on this board put together based on what they think, but based on how its really done.
Secondly, you,nor I havent a clue of what any team views as bpa vs need. We can go from the greatest talent evaluators to some of the poorest ones and ask why you didn't draft that guy? Really, most times, bpa is when a team trades up for a guy, from what I've been told.
I was simply curious how you evidenced a team going strictly BPA on "their board". You answered that you just go by their word for it. When I simply said ok to that you began getting defensive and telling me what I've asserted to believe, which I hadn't. Not sure why that had to be taken as some argumentative affront to your ego.
Texian
Hall of Fame
So you're done then?
I was done back when you said you didn't have any evidence and I said 'ok'. I figured you were too.
Texian
Hall of Fame
and yet you're still here wanting to have the last word, it's all yours.....
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
So by y
So, by your logic, if the cowboys pass on wentz, Ozzie should draft him correct?
So, by your logic, if the cowboys pass on wentz, Ozzie should draft him correct?
Texian
Hall of Fame
Absolutely! You got it, surprised you has to ask.....
BAL drafts Wentz or Goff, does a sign and trade with Flacco for TWO FIRST RD draft picks and BAL upgrades the most important position in game for the next 15 years....I think you may be getting the hang of this BPA.
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No, Ozzie should never get the chance because the Titans should draft him at 1.1, if they trade out it's only because they are going for need not BPA
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
There's something called reality. Reality is, the ravens have a great post season, super bowl winning qb who makes 20m a year with accelerated bonus money on the the books. The reality is, they're not gonna take that cap hit anc trade a known for 3 unknowns. As I stated before, best case scenerio is when bpa and need matches, but reality is similar to what billick said. Most times your bpa just so happens to be a need. No coach is looking 15 yrs down the line, they dont care because of job security or lack of. When a team like baltimore or even a team like jacksonville who have their qb,their grades will be different than a team without a qb, its only natural. Thats why if Wentz or Goff falls to Ravens or Jags, they wont draft them. Or are you going to tell me Jags should draft wentz and trade bortles for picks so they can be set for 15 yrs?
Texian
Hall of Fame
Wentz and Goff won't make it to #6 and I don't do silly.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
And in the next news, Aaron Rodgers won't make it to 7.
You may not do silly but you have stupid nailed
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Yep, Rogers was in debate to go 1st and wound up going 21st. Ricky Williams was suppose to go to the Eagles, even after that, he was suppose to be the 1st rb. McNabb went 2nd and the 1st rb was Edge.When guys like Texian speaks opinion like its fact, all i can do is smh.
This is starting to sound like a Matt Millen joke.
Shishkabob
All Pro
It's only bpa if Texian likes the player, if not it's reaching. Haven't you learned anything about drafting yet lol
If Goff Wentz fall to San Diego I could see them trading back to around 10 for a kings ransom. If I was Smith I would try to do everything I could to do a 3 team trade so San Diego could get the top 10 pick they want and the Texans get there QB for the next 15 yrs. (Particularly Goff) The 9 inch hands thing doesn't bother me because the Texans play in a dome stadium, so does indy and the weather is usually pretty good in Jacksonville and Tackville.
Get the QB this yr and then finish building the team around him. It's not like the Texans are going to be winning the SB next yr anyway. It's finally time for McNair/Smith/BOB to either take a dump or get off of the pot.
Texian
Hall of Fame
So boys are still upset they cut Louis Nix after giving up a ransom to TRADE UP to get him??
A fourth and fifth round pick is a ransom?
They traded up for him because he was BPA on their board at a position of need. Right or wrong. He was BPA
Texian
Hall of Fame
After that Alabama game he wasn't even on my draft board, he was Buyer Beware, not as advertised.
Were the Texans using your draft board? Maybe they should have been. He was obviously still on the Texans board & there board said he was a value pick, even in trading up to get him.
Wrong. Sure, just don't see how trading up for a player can be seen as not playing your board & reaching. It's not like they said, "We believe he'll be there in the 5th, but we really need a DT. There are several others we grade better, but let's trade up & take him here in the third."
Texian
Hall of Fame
The kid had more games with 0 tackles than he had games with tackles
I understand. You were right. The Texans were wrong.
Still, they obviously had him graded much higher hence they traded up for the best player on their board.
Now if they passed over a more talented player, say a Jj Watt, for a less talented player... Blaine Gabbert because of need, that would be an example you could use.
MistaRed
Rookie
What about the remaining holes on the team?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
R
What holes?
How many dissappear with a decent QB?
Holy crap a TE. What's that? Slow white guy getting a 1st down. What's that?
What holes?
How many dissappear with a decent QB?
Holy crap a TE. What's that? Slow white guy getting a 1st down. What's that?
revan
Waterboy
You mean like when they passed over Revis to take Okoye?
It would depend on how their board was. If I remember right, a lot of people had Okoye over Revis. At least most of the big boards & mocks had Okoye as a top 10 pick. Not Revis.
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Shishkabob
All Pro
This quote right here proves my point if it's not a player you like, you consider it reaching. It might be a reach on your board, but at the time the team thought he was a great value there and didn't see him lasting to them so they moved up to get him. That's not a reach, most pundits had him as a 2nd rd guy and we got him in the mid 3rd. Sure it didn't work out, but most draft picks dont
I was a big, big fan of Revis coming out of college!
There was a lot on this board very high no Nix iirc. I also think I saw him in the first round from a number of mocks
Texian
Hall of Fame
So according to you I should not express my opinion or any opinion that differs from your way of thinking. Got it! I should check in with you before posting any message to get your approval. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!
you read that totally different than I did
Carson Wentz, QB, North Dakota State: 6-5, 237. Played behind Waupaca's Brock Jensen until 2014. A wrist injury in '15 limited him to just 23 career starts. "He's a big guy with a big arm," said one scout. "The ball gets there. He's not a scrambler per se but he has speed. He might be the most physically talented of the group. Would I be nervous with this guy? Absolutely. But if you have no quarterback at all, what do you got to lose?" Finished with an NFL passer rating of 105.2. Scored 29 on the 50-question Wonderlic intelligence test. "He's got an arm," another scout said. "But it's such a long way from that level of play to the NFL at any position, let alone quarterback."
Jared Goff*, QB, California: 6-4, 215. Third-year junior with 37 starts. "He might be the most ready," one scout said. "Thing I don't like is his slender build. He did not have a lot of talent around him. Does he have a great arm? No, but it's good enough. I'd be nervous taking him above 10." Posted an NFL passer rating of 98.9. "In terms of arm talent, he'll be like (Jay) Cutler," another scout said. "Skinny kid. Gets hit a bunch. He doesn't see everything. Accuracy is off at times, but he is talented. He can really spin it. Really good feet."
Paxton Lynch*, QB, Memphis: 6-7, 244. Fourth-year junior. "There's stuff he doesn't see but, boy, is he a great athlete for a big guy," one scout said. "He's got good feet and can make all the throws." His NFL passer rating of 93.5 included 110.6 in 2015. "Big production in a lot of games, so-so in some others," another scout said. "Pretty good athlete for a big kid. Excellent size. He's got a big ceiling. It's a weird group of quarterbacks. None of them are just ready-made and none of them show consistency. They're good, solid starters. None of them are Pro Bowl-caliber type quarterbacks. I would take (Jameis) Winston and (Marcus) Mariota over these guys. No question."
Connor Cook, QB, Michigan State: 6-4, 217. Three-year starter with a 34-5 record. "He's got a great winning percentage, an average arm and a quick release," one scout said. "I don't know if his teammates really love him." Wasn't elected as a team captain. "He can make all the throws and he's got some strength to him and he can run," another scout said. "It's all the other stuff. How much he really likes ball and how much he's going to work at it. He likes being a celebrity." NFL passer rating was 95.1. "Cook speaks well and looks good when he speaks, but he's not the sharpest guy," a third scout said. "He's not a high football IQ guy."
Christian Hackenberg*, QB, Penn State: 6-4, 223. Third-year junior. "He's got an incredible amount of talent," one scout said. "There are times he makes incredible throws and times he makes stupid throws. Does the pressure rattle him? That's the key. The changeover in coaches has probably brought him down." Flourished as a freshman (NFL passer rating of 89.0) before coach Bill O'Brien departed for the Texans. His rating in 2014-'15 dipped to 75.6. "After his freshman year people looked at him as the first pick in the draft," another scout said. "He could be as talented as any of these quarterbacks. He's got the arm, the body and is actually a competitor. But the coaches there at Penn State didn't play to his strengths. A premier type talent like that is so hard to find these days. I could see him going latter part of the first round."
revan
Waterboy
Bob McGinn
Carson Wentz, QB, North Dakota State: 6-5, 237. Played behind Waupaca's Brock Jensen until 2014. A wrist injury in '15 limited him to just 23 career starts. "He's a big guy with a big arm," said one scout. "The ball gets there. He's not a scrambler per se but he has speed. He might be the most physically talented of the group. Would I be nervous with this guy? Absolutely. But if you have no quarterback at all, what do you got to lose?" Finished with an NFL passer rating of 105.2. Scored 29 on the 50-question Wonderlic intelligence test. "He's got an arm," another scout said. "But it's such a long way from that level of play to the NFL at any position, let alone quarterback."
Jared Goff*, QB, California: 6-4, 215. Third-year junior with 37 starts. "He might be the most ready," one scout said. "Thing I don't like is his slender build. He did not have a lot of talent around him. Does he have a great arm? No, but it's good enough. I'd be nervous taking him above 10." Posted an NFL passer rating of 98.9. "In terms of arm talent, he'll be like (Jay) Cutler," another scout said. "Skinny kid. Gets hit a bunch. He doesn't see everything. Accuracy is off at times, but he is talented. He can really spin it. Really good feet."
Paxton Lynch*, QB, Memphis: 6-7, 244. Fourth-year junior. "There's stuff he doesn't see but, boy, is he a great athlete for a big guy," one scout said. "He's got good feet and can make all the throws." His NFL passer rating of 93.5 included 110.6 in 2015. "Big production in a lot of games, so-so in some others," another scout said. "Pretty good athlete for a big kid. Excellent size. He's got a big ceiling. It's a weird group of quarterbacks. None of them are just ready-made and none of them show consistency. They're good, solid starters. None of them are Pro Bowl-caliber type quarterbacks. I would take (Jameis) Winston and (Marcus) Mariota over these guys. No question."
Connor Cook, QB, Michigan State: 6-4, 217. Three-year starter with a 34-5 record. "He's got a great winning percentage, an average arm and a quick release," one scout said. "I don't know if his teammates really love him." Wasn't elected as a team captain. "He can make all the throws and he's got some strength to him and he can run," another scout said. "It's all the other stuff. How much he really likes ball and how much he's going to work at it. He likes being a celebrity." NFL passer rating was 95.1. "Cook speaks well and looks good when he speaks, but he's not the sharpest guy," a third scout said. "He's not a high football IQ guy."
Christian Hackenberg*, QB, Penn State: 6-4, 223. Third-year junior. "He's got an incredible amount of talent," one scout said. "There are times he makes incredible throws and times he makes stupid throws. Does the pressure rattle him? That's the key. The changeover in coaches has probably brought him down." Flourished as a freshman (NFL passer rating of 89.0) before coach Bill O'Brien departed for the Texans. His rating in 2014-'15 dipped to 75.6. "After his freshman year people looked at him as the first pick in the draft," another scout said. "He could be as talented as any of these quarterbacks. He's got the arm, the body and is actually a competitor. But the coaches there at Penn State didn't play to his strengths. A premier type talent like that is so hard to find these days. I could see him going latter part of the first round."
I swear if we don't get any of these QBs I will.......... probably do nothing and just take it like I have been all these years since I love this team to death
Shishkabob
All Pro
Not what i was saying at all, you get argumentative and take everything personally as soon as someone doesnt agree with your way of thinking. In one instance you say a team trading up is taking BPA then in another instance you say it is reaching. Its either one or the other, however when its the player you like its BPA, when its a guy you didnt like it was reaching that my point. you are more than free to posting whatever you want to post just dont get so offended when someone questions your logic behind something, or when they flat out say your wrong. Kind of like i was telling you earlier then off season when you were proclaiming Coker was a first round pick lol
Texian
Hall of Fame
You're confusing argumentative and being wrong with disagreeing. You think trading up for Nix was justifiable because several people said so. I didn't because I thought being manhandled on the biggest stage in the brightest lights was a disqualifier. That and he had more bad games than he had good games, another major disqualifier. Clearly we disagree. Clearly you don't like being disagreed with. We also have a clear difference of opinion. In this case our disagreement was settled, I was right and you were wrong. You won't admit it because you don't like being wrong or disagreed with.
As for Coker, that is not the first time I've admitted i was wrong. Have you ever admitted you were wrong or do you still believe you're Mr Know-It-All. At the time when Coker was performing admirably on the biggest stages I did say he looked liked he could be 1st RD material. I reserved the right to make a final judgement after the All-Star games, Combine and Pro Days. At the conclusion of the Senior Bowl I had formed the opinion that Coker's processor may not be quick enough for the game on Sunday and publicly stated so. You schmucks always seem to want to forget that when you try to make a point. I was quite clear that I had erred in my early judgement and that Coker was in fact NOT a day 1 draft pick. However I am still not convinved that Coker could be a serviceable backup in the league and one day possibly a starter. He will have to make some dramtic improvements for this to happen.
The biggest difference and disagreement between you and me is you think trading multiple picks to trade up for Nix was a good idea and I don't think Nix should've been on a draft board. You think trading up a franchise QB like Wentz is a reach and I don't because I see 6-7 Pro Bowls and as many playoff appearances in a 10 -12 yr career.
This started because you said the Texans did not stay true to their board, traded up, & reached on Nix.
Now you're arguing if the move was justifiable.
In the first case, no one trades up for a player that is not on their board. Trading up to "reach" doesn't even make sense.
In the second case, in hindsight, you were right. You were able to see Louis Nis was not a football player, Rick Smith didn't have a clue.
Texian
Hall of Fame
You do realize that you're using the Texans draft board to justify your opinion? I also think I was clear that I was referencing teams that are consistently making the playoffs. If you are saying that the Texans stayed true to their board and Romeo wasn't desperate to fill a BIG hole on his D Line, I disagree.
Wow...for once I can agree with the member you were quoting and your response to that poster. Nix was just a bad pick, but that's based upon hindsight and intangibles. The big knock on Nix were injuries. Supposing that they healed, his desire to play in the NFL has to be questioned. Nix has answered both questions, as he has passed NFL physicals and shown very little desire to be an NFL player. That's proving to be a trend among very gifted potential player's. Things come to easy for them against lesser competition. Once they reach the NFL, it's all about desire. Do you want it more than the other guy?
Ok. Maybe our definition of "reach" is the problem. I think a reach is when you draft a player that you rank lower than several better prospects on your board. For example, you want a big defensive lineman to fill a position of need, but the next 12 spots on your board are offensive linemen. Taking that defensive lineman eventually leads to you paying a borderline swing tackle starting money.
Similarly, it wouldn't make sense to trade up to grab a defensive lineman you have graded 12 spots after your pick.
Texian
Hall of Fame
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, I am of the opinion that OB had an agreement with Romeo to fix the middle of the DL, Romeo wanted Nix and OB told Rick to go get him.
Texian
Hall of Fame
I think you might've nailed it.
You have a lot of opinions that I'm on the fence with. You tend more towards
than most, but I agree with some of them.
Shishkabob
All Pro
Lol this is border line hysterical you get way to wrapped up in the Internet man, go live life a little. I'm not saying I agree with the Nix pick, I'm just saying it's quite possible it was not a reach according to their boards. I had my worries about him, big guys with a history of knee injuries generally not a good thing. However many scouts had him with a 2nd rd grade, a few even had him as a late first. Generally in a draft you don't trade up for a reach. You see a player you have valued higher than where he currently is and they probably also fill a need. I understand he was a bust, and sure you might have not liked the pick but because he wasn't on your board doesn't mean the texans reached on theirs.
Again I don't think trading up for a qb is reaching if that's how your board is laid out. However if you have a qb ranked 7th and you trade multiple first rounders to move up to the first pick then yes that's a reach. The reach might work out but is still a reach. Especially if you are drafting up high you probably have a lot of holes to fill so you shouldn't give up a ton to get a qb. The Cowboys are in an intriguing place however they should've been a playoff team had qb issues and other problems and wound up at 4. I could see them taking a qb at 4, but I don't see them trading up to 1 for 1.
By the way I can admit when I'm wrong. For instance I didn't like Derek Carr, I watched his poor performance against usc and had bad flash backs of David. I was wrong I can admit that. I can still make fun of you for insisting Coker was a top flight qb, this is the Internet if I want to bust your balls I'm going to. It's all in good fun we are all here for the same reason. To support our team/vent/share ideas.