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Trade up for your QB

thunderkyss

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
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Just wanted to get a feel for this year's crop of QBs & your sense of urgency to get one.


Is there one guy out there that we have to have? & if that's the case, what's the most you'd be willing to give up for him.

Never mind where you think we'll be picking, or where you think he'll go. What's the most you'll give up to get him, even though we may not have to go all in.
 
IMHO there are only 2 1st RD QBs in the upcoming draft. However neither one show a convincing promise as the answer to being a sure thing. The Texans would have to pay a Kings ransom, a 2017 #1 or 2016 #2 in order to move up to have a chance. The risk reward for the price that would have to be paid favors the risk.
 
Texian said:
IMHO there are only 2 1st RD QBs in the upcoming draft. However neither one show a convincing promise as the answer to being a sure thing. The Texans would have to pay a Kings ransom, a 2017 #1 or 2016 #2 in order to move up to have a chance. The risk reward for the price that would have to be paid favors the risk.
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So neither are worth a 2017 #1 & a 2016 #2.

What are they worth? What's the most you'll give up to move up to get one of them?

A 3rd? A 2018 conditional 7th?
 
For Goff I would give up a 2016 1st and 3rd for the team I was trading with's 4th.

And a Texans 2017 1st and 4th.

I really like Goff and think the Texans would make the playoffs regurly and become a SB contender in 3 yrs after Brady/Manning/Brees etc are gone.

In fact I would do this trade and sign Brees if he became a FA.
 
I believe you can possibly steal 1.2 overall from Cleveland... They'll only screw it up and draft a Caradelle Jones there
 
thunderkyss said:
So neither are worth a 2017 #1 & a 2016 #2.

What are they worth? What's the most you'll give up to move up to get one of them?

A 3rd? A 2018 conditional 7th?
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I would most likely sit tight or offer the 3rd RD but not sure that would be enough. Currently a 2017 RD 1 or 2016 RD 2 would get the Texans to pick #s 12 -14. Now that McNair has announced that the Texans will be drafting a QB early the asking price has gone up considerably. I expect this could turnout to be another McNair desperation panic ploy FUBAR or SNAFU.
 
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INDIANAPOLIS - The Tennessee Titans have the first pick in the draft, and new general manager Jon Robinson will explore trading down.

The Titans have a lot of needs, including a left tackle to protect quarterback Marcus Mariota's blind side. Laremy Tunsil of Mississippi is the best prospect at his position.

In a perfect world, a team needing a quarterback will offer Robinson picks to move one spot ahead of the Cleveland Browns, who are almost assured of taking a quarterback second overall, probably either Jared Goff of California or Carson Wentz of North Dakota State....
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http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/...ook-at-trading-out-of-NFL-draft-s-6852026.php

So would ya trade with a division rival... would they?

CcEDvgCUkAAmZWK.jpg


Brian T. Smith ‏@ChronBrianSmith
An open letter to #Texans owner Bob McNair on today's @HoustonChron Sports cover.
 
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Texans should offer 2016, 2017, 2018 1st RD picks and Jadevon Clowney to Tenn for their #1 pick to draft Carson Wentz. That is All! (Won't happen, McNair has tiny marbles.)
 
I bet Cleveland will be looking to trade down as well. That's who I'd target as a trading partner.
 
thunderkyss said:
I bet Cleveland will be looking to trade down as well. That's who I'd target as a trading partner.
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Uhh, what? They want a QB, they're desperate for one in fact, and they're in prime position to take the one of their choosing (barring someone trading w/Tenn). Where are you getting they would want to trade down?
 
Mollywhopper said:
Uhh, what? They want a QB, they're desperate for one in fact, and they're in prime position to take the one of their choosing (barring someone trading w/Tenn). Where are you getting they would want to trade down?
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If I were them I would want to trade down. They've got a team problem, not a QB problem. Just my opinion, they can keep drafting QBs hoping to eventually get the other pieces around him, or they could trade down Say they get our 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & next year's 1st... I think they'd be much better off than if they just used their current picks.

But that's just me. If I were Rick, I'd approach Cleveland before I try to get anything out of Tennessee.
 
thunderkyss said:
If I were them I would want to trade down. They've got a team problem, not a QB problem. Just my opinion, they can keep drafting QBs hoping to eventually get the other pieces around him, or they could trade down Say they get our 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & next year's 1st... I think they'd be much better off than if they just used their current picks.

But that's just me. If I were Rick, I'd approach Cleveland before I try to get anything out of Tennessee.
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Completely fair to say that they have more holes than just one position, they do. Just how many times is a franchise faced with a top pick when two legit prospects could be staring them in the face at the most important position in the game? If they dodged both Goff & Wentz, even in picking up some good players, and then watched those guys soar ... well, that sounds awfully Cleveland of them.
 
Mollywhopper said:
Completely fair to say that they have more holes than just one position, they do. Just how many times is a franchise faced with a top pick when two legit prospects could be staring them in the face at the most important position in the game? If they dodged both Goff & Wentz, even in picking up some good players, and then watched those guys soar ... well, that sounds awfully Cleveland of them.
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There's that.

But Hue Jackson also comes across as a teacher. If he doesn't get McCarron, I'd bet he could make Kevin Hogan look better than any QB the Browns have had in years.
 
thunderkyss said:
There's that.

But Hue Jackson also comes across as a teacher. If he doesn't get McCarron, I'd bet he could make Kevin Hogan look better than any QB the Browns have had in years.
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I guess I just differ in valuing a top tier QB talent over coaching a guy up. To each their own of course.
 
Jackson is a good QB coach that could work with a 2nd/3rd round guy but he's gone on record saying they are taking one high.
 
Mollywhopper said:
I guess I just differ in valuing a top tier QB talent over coaching a guy up. To each their own of course.
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Right... I don't think it's a question of valuing top tier QB talent. & this has nothing to do with what I heard, or read, or am lead to believe Cleveland will do. I just think Cleveland needs to first address the problem of learning how to play & win as a team. Then they can bring in a QB & teach him how to lead the team. Generally speaking, when teams like Cleveland go for that early round QB they forget to teach the rest of the team how to play & win & never get off the QB carousel.

I look at San Francisco & Seattle as "models" of how perennial losers should "turn it around" It's team first, learning how to play & win as a team, then introducing the QB later.

I like the QBs in this draft class & yeah, they might draft a guy & sit him for a full year (but that rarely happens on a team like Cleveland). San Francisco had Alex Smith, they didn't need to start their rookie right away. Pete Carol was able to work through his QB issues until he was ready to start a rookie.

But if I were Cleveland, I'd get out of the QB training business & focus on team building. I think Hue is smart enough to have figured that out (or more likely I hope he thinks like I do). & he's got enough clout that he can convince Cleveland that's what they need to do. If they can trade down & pick up a couple of extra picks in the first three rounds... that's what I would do.

WolverineFan said:
Jackson is a good QB coach that could work with a 2nd/3rd round guy but he's gone on record saying they are taking one high.
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Well, there is that. & I haven't heard anything saying they were open to trades. I'm just saying. They've been so "QB focused" for so long you'd think they'd figure it out by now. No matter who they put back there he's going to fail. They have no foundation. Maybe they think they can teach a QB to play at this level & teach a team to win at the same time. I just think they're so far away on either that they're shooting themselves in the foot.


But that's just me.
 
thunderkyss said:
Right... I don't think it's a question of valuing top tier QB talent. & this has nothing to do with what I heard, or read, or am lead to believe Cleveland will do. I just think Cleveland needs to first address the problem of learning how to play & win as a team. Then they can bring in a QB & teach him how to lead the team. Generally speaking, when teams like Cleveland go for that early round QB they forget to teach the rest of the team how to play & win & never get off the QB carousel.

I look at San Francisco & Seattle as "models" of how perennial losers should "turn it around" It's team first, learning how to play & win as a team, then introducing the QB later.

I like the QBs in this draft class & yeah, they might draft a guy & sit him for a full year (but that rarely happens on a team like Cleveland). San Francisco had Alex Smith, they didn't need to start their rookie right away. Pete Carol was able to work through his QB issues until he was ready to start a rookie.

But if I were Cleveland, I'd get out of the QB training business & focus on team building. I think Hue is smart enough to have figured that out (or more likely I hope he thinks like I do). & he's got enough clout that he can convince Cleveland that's what they need to do. If they can trade down & pick up a couple of extra picks in the first three rounds... that's what I would do.
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You're saying this as though Cleveland has failed one excellent prospect after the other, when all they've actually had were Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Brandon Weeden and so on. They're aim has been as off as they're strategy.

There's no reason they couldn't 'learn how to play & win' alongside bringing in a top tier QB talent to lead their team. These ideas aren't mutually exclusive. I can just as easily look at Indy with Peyton and Carolina with Cam as 'models' of how perennial losers can turn it around by adding a franchise signal caller while putting pieces in place around him. Elite QB prospects are the rarest bird in the league, I couldn't fathom passing one up that's on your doorstep because you think you're ... not ready for it? So then you can get a solid team built and hope for the next half dozen or so years that you can stumble onto the kind of stud QB you passed up years ago?

I agree with the philosophy of team building as not to put everything on your young QB, I just diverge at thumbing my nose at the rarest of chances to take a potential game changer at the suggestion that the team can't be built up as well.
 
Following up on Mollywhopper - while you have that premium QB on a rookie contract, you have an extra $14 mil in cap space to spend on building a team around him.
 
thunderkyss said:
Well, there is that. & I haven't heard anything saying they were open to trades. I'm just saying. They've been so "QB focused" for so long you'd think they'd figure it out by now. No matter who they put back there he's going to fail. They have no foundation. Maybe they think they can teach a QB to play at this level & teach a team to win at the same time. I just think they're so far away on either that they're shooting themselves in the foot.


But that's just me.
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Don't get me wrong, I completely get where you are coming from. Organizationally they are just a damn mess and have been for so long. But as a brand new Head Coach, you want your guy and you want him immediately. You're not going to go down with the McCown/Manziel ship when you have a chance to pick your own guy right away.
 
Mollywhopper said:
You're saying this as though Cleveland has failed one excellent prospect after the other, when all they've actually had were Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Brandon Weeden and so on. They're aim has been as off as they're strategy.

There's no reason they couldn't 'learn how to play & win' alongside bringing in a top tier QB talent to lead their team. These ideas aren't mutually exclusive. I can just as easily look at Indy with Peyton and Carolina with Cam as 'models' of how perennial losers can turn it around by adding a franchise signal caller while putting pieces in place around him. Elite QB prospects are the rarest bird in the league, I couldn't fathom passing one up that's on your doorstep because you think you're ... not ready for it? So then you can get a solid team built and hope for the next half dozen or so years that you can stumble onto the kind of stud QB you passed up years ago?

I agree with the philosophy of team building as not to put everything on your young QB, I just diverge at thumbing my nose at the rarest of chances to take a potential game changer at the suggestion that the team can't be built up as well.
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That's where the disconnect is then, I guess. While I do like the QB prospects in this draft, I don't put any of them on the elite "Peyton Manning" type prospect level. Yes, if there were a Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Matthew Stafford, Sam Bradford, Phillip Rivers... yes. Take that guy & build around him. IMO, the closest thing to those guys in this draft are Connor Cook, & Kevin Hogan and those guys are going to be going a lot later than #2 overall.

Yes... the way I look at QBs, something's wrong if I think Connor Cook & Kevin Hogan are closer to Peyton Manning & Phillip Rivers than Jared Goff. I think we've been over this before, but that's where I'm at.

& that's not to bad mouth Jared Goff or Carson Wentz. They're great. Hopefully someone takes them in the top 5... 1 & 2 even. That's the way the NFL seems to be going. I don't have a problem with that. But I said it before, I'd have no problem at all if Houston stays pat & take the Rose Bowl MVP at 22.

Definitely wouldn't have a problem, if I were Cleveland to trade down in the first & grab him as well. But that's another story.
 
infantrycak said:
Following up on Mollywhopper - while you have that premium QB on a rookie contract, you have an extra $14 mil in cap space to spend on building a team around him.
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Wasted money if you're having to teach a guy who isn't prepared to play in the NFL.

I know people are saying Goff & Wentz are ready to start day 1. & I'm sure Hue Jackson can put together an offense to do just that. But the next time I see a team like Cleveland turn it around doing it that way, will be the first time in a long time.
 
Mollywhopper said:
You're saying this as though Cleveland has failed one excellent prospect after the other, when all they've actually had were Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Brandon Weeden and so on. They're aim has been as off as they're strategy.
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Good point.


I got nothing... :shrugs:
 
thunderkyss said:
I bet Cleveland will be looking to trade down as well. That's who I'd target as a trading partner.
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Something tells us that Cleveland isn't anxious to trade down from #2 so they can take a QB (or anyone else for that matter) with the #22 overall pick. Just a hunch.

The only question is would there be enough time between when they announced the trade and when they actually made the pick for the fanbase to set the stadium on fire.

Signed,
Johnny Manziel, Brandon Weeden, and Brady Quinn
 
thunderkyss said:
Wasted money if you're having to teach a guy who isn't prepared to play in the NFL.
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Then it's wasted money if you build the team 1st and then draft the QB too. There's always going to be a QB learning curve and QBs have the best longevity.

I know people are saying Goff & Wentz are ready to start day 1. & I'm sure Hue Jackson can put together an offense to do just that. But the next time I see a team like Cleveland turn it around doing it that way, will be the first time in a long time.
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Dallas Cowboys under JJ.
 
I am in the camp of wait and see who falls to you. I would be perfectly fine with taking our QB at or around our draft slot, or getting a stud offensive piece, and grabbing my QB in the 2nd. These guys arent perfect, but they are potential. And the amount of work they put in at their craft after being drafted isnt determined by their pre draft rankings.
 
infantrycak said:
Dallas Cowboys under JJ.
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That was a long time ago & colleges were doing a much better job of preparing QBs to play the game at a high level.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you guys are saying. I agree. If there was a Troy Aikman in this draft, Cleveland would have no choice but to take him with the #2 pick, if he's there. I don't think Carson Wentz or Jared Goff is that type of prospect. Not even close.

Some do, & that's fine. All it takes is for one team to fall in love, right? And Cleveland's been a team that seems to fall in love with anyone who can throw the football 20 yards is all I'm saying. They need to try something different imo.
 
thunderkyss said:
That was a long time ago & colleges were doing a much better job of preparing QBs to play the game at a high level.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you guys are saying. I agree. If there was a Troy Aikman in this draft, Cleveland would have no choice but to take him with the #2 pick, if he's there. I don't think Carson Wentz or Jared Goff is that type of prospect. Not even close.

Some do, & that's fine. All it takes is for one team to fall in love, right? And Cleveland's been a team that seems to fall in love with anyone who can throw the football 20 yards is all I'm saying. They need to try something different imo.
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They should have listened to their million dollar QB evaluation thing, and not to some homeless guy on the street.
 
Shishkabob said:
They should have listened to their million dollar QB evaluation thing, and not to some homeless guy on the street.
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True... but then they fired the HC who wasn't on board with the homeless guy. Chances are, we're dealing with the same Browns & that's not good for whatever QB they take.
 
thunderkyss said:
True... but then they fired the HC who wasn't on board with the homeless guy. Chances are, we're dealing with the same Browns & that's not good for whatever QB they take.
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Eh I always saw Pettine as a place holder. Always seemed to me that they missed out on some guys they really wanted, and then had to just settle. I dont think they did him any favors though by shoving Johnny down his throat, and I think his rolling with other QBs over Johnny drove a wedge between he, the FO, and Johnny himself.

Hue Jackson knows how to make a good offense, and work with QBs so their QB might stand a chance
 
yesterday on radio 790 Sean Jones former Oiler and SB player said he didn't think any of the top QBs were franchise types nor would he trade up for them. FYI
 
I'd trade up for Goff...Especially if Wentz goes before him and some team liked the size of Paxton Lynch and Goff made it to like 10 or so...Very unlikely, but if it happened I'd do it.


But I think it's moot. Listening to OB talk the other day I just got the sense that Hackenberg would be the QB.

Not totally opposed to that.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I'd trade up for Goff...Especially if Wentz goes before him and some team liked the size of Paxton Lynch and Goff made it to like 10 or so...Very unlikely, but if it happened I'd do it.
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Thanks. Let's get this thread back on track. What's the most you would give up to get Goff?
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I'm not sure tbh.

Our one this year and next year. I guess would be the starting point for me.
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That might get to #12 - New Orleans. They might prefer our 1st and 2nd this year which is about the same value.

2 1sts and this year's 2nd is approximately #6.
 
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infantrycak said:
That might get to #12 - New Orleans. They might prefer our 1st and 2nd this year which is about the same value.

2 1sts and this year's 2nd is approximately #6.
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I think a trade with Baltimore may be very doable, and I'd be ok with that if we could land Goff... and probably ok with Wentz there
 
JB said:
I think a trade with Baltimore may be very doable, and I'd be ok with that if we could land Goff... and probably ok with Wentz there
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Hey I'm hoping the Browns love Wentz and then folks convince themselves Goff has t-rex hands (lIke they convinced themselves Rodgers was a Tedford QB) or he needs to be 10 lbs heavier or some other stupid crap and he slides to where we can't resist.
 
infantrycak said:
Hey I'm hoping the Browns love Wentz and then folks convince themselves Goff has t-rex hands (lIke they convinced themselves Rodgers was a Telford QB) or he needs to be 10 lbs heavier or some other stupid crap and he slides to where we can't resist.
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So you don't buy into the "top three" thing, that Paxton Lynch belongs in the conversation? Or Connor Cook even. You dont see the knock on him, that he's "not a leader" isn't in the same "Telford/small hands" realm of excuses?

Only two "elite" prospects in this class?
 
What 'top 3 thing?'

I see Goff and Wentz as special enough to make significant moves to get. Lynch maybe a Flacco type move to get. Everyone else I'd sit at 22 and wait.

No I do not see 'not a leader' as the same thing. That's one that falls to research. Can't hold a ball, can't take a hit show up on the field readily, inevitably. Leadership shows up much less obviously and primarily in times of distress and not necessarily on film.* But if the Texans do that research I'm fine with them taking him.

Not that you asked but I am not fond of Hack. If the best things you can mention about a QB are his height and weight (things beyond his control) then he's a dime a dozen who just happened to have carpooled with OB.

* Everyone watching the Cowboys v. Giants in 1993 knew Emmitt Smith was playing in severe pain. The commentators were questioning him being 'forced' to do so. Turned out Emmitt was demanding the ball. Leadership is harder to capture on film.
 
thunderkyss said:
True... but then they fired the HC who wasn't on board with the homeless guy. Chances are, we're dealing with the same Browns & that's not good for whatever QB they take.
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I don't know about that last part. Hue Jackson is a QB whisperer.
 
infantrycak said:
What 'top 3 thing?'

I see Goff and Wentz as special enough to make significant moves to get. Lynch maybe a Flacco type move to get. Everyone else I'd sit at 22 and wait.
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Interesting.

The top 3 thing is just the media talk about the top 3 QB prospects are Wentz, Goff, & Lynch.

I hope the Texans fall in love with one of these guys & do whatever it takes to get him. Lots of really good prospects.

Right now, the perception is everyone but Wentz, Goff & possibly Lynch will be there at 22. Which is the reason I've been saying I'd sit & wait for Cook. He's the guy I want. If that conversation were to change & Cook's stock starts to rise, I'd be behind a trade to get him, even if that means I'd have to trade to the #1 spot to get him. I'd give up my whole draft to get him. First four picks this year & next. Whatever it takes.

In 2014, just an aside, I'd have used the #1 overa on Aj McCarron if I thought I needed to.
 
thunderkyss said:
Interesting.

The top 3 thing is just the media talk about the top 3 QB prospects are Wentz, Goff, & Lynch.

I hope the Texans fall in love with one of these guys & do whatever it takes to get him. Lots of really good prospects.

Right now, the perception is everyone but Wentz, Goff & possibly Lynch will be there at 22. Which is the reason I've been saying I'd sit & wait for Cook. He's the guy I want. If that conversation were to change & Cook's stock starts to rise, I'd be behind a trade to get him, even if that means I'd have to trade to the #1 spot to get him. I'd give up my whole draft to get him. First four picks this year & next. Whatever it takes.

In 2014, just an aside, I'd have used the #1 overa on Aj McCarron if I thought I needed to.
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I'm very leery of late risers.
 
DocBar said:
I'm very leery of late risers.
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Understood. In this case, I've wanted Cook since last year. I'd have taken him over Winston & Mariota... I understand the talent level of those two are way above Cook's, I just think Cook is the better QB. He's what I look for in a QB. Pretty much the same thing we saw in McCarron, but more of a gunslinger, with a stronger arm (not that he's got a cannon).

Like Texian & Carson Wentz. He's been high on Wentz before anyone was even talking about him. 8 weeks ago, he wasn't a 1st round prospect. Now, he's at the top of the list. Wentz didn't get any better, people just all of a sudden started looking at him. Same thing with Russell Wilson in Texian was high on him as well. Didn't think any less of him that he went in the third round.

I don't think Cook is going to shoot up to the top of the draft. I do think with the new media pieces coming out, he's no longer a lock to be there at 22.
 
thunderkyss said:
Understood. In this case, I've wanted Cook since last year. I'd have taken him over Winston & Mariota... I understand the talent level of those two are way above Cook's, I just think Cook is the better QB. He's what I look for in a QB. Pretty much the same thing we saw in McCarron, but more of a gunslinger, with a stronger arm (not that he's got a cannon).

Like Texian & Carson Wentz. He's been high on Wentz before anyone was even talking about him. 8 weeks ago, he wasn't a 1st round prospect. Now, he's at the top of the list. Wentz didn't get any better, people just all of a sudden started looking at him. Same thing with Russell Wilson in Texian was high on him as well. Didn't think any less of him that he went in the third round.

I don't think Cook is going to shoot up to the top of the draft. I do think with the new media pieces coming out, he's no longer a lock to be there at 22.
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Texian is pretty good at picking QB's that nobody has really heard of that can really play. I wonder what traits he looks at.
 
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