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The value of Matt Schaub

Then dispute what he is saying.

No disrespect to the NCAA, but you are seriously not comparing college ball to the NFL. That article is nice and all, but it doesn't necessarily translate to the pro game.

So, are you saying that Carr would be doing the same as Schaub behind this exact same team?

Are you disagreeing that Carr was making the line look bad?

You say the line is a "major flaw" that the Texans have "covered up". hmmmm, just add a RB and you get protection, poise in the pocket, and good QB decisions? Your math is not adding up. Maybe your perception of "major flaw" is the problem, because nobody - including the talking heads who used to say the same thing - agrees with your take. You do realize that this is the same line we had last year, yeah?

I am comparing NCAA and NFL lines, yes. A good o-line can make even half-way decent quarterbacks look good. A bad o-line can make good quarterbacks look bad. I do think Carr would be doing much better this year if he were still on the team because the run game would be much better, and so would the defense. I've always said I would have predicted the Texans to go 8-8 this year with Carr. That should show that I think the kid had at least something in there. I'm not selling him as the next great thing. I never thought he was more than serviceable goods that had been damaged, but I still think he could have taken the team to 8-8 this year. Along those lines, I'll restate that I think for Matt to pay off, the team needs to be 9-7.

I think the line still has a long ways to go before becoming even an average line. To be a good line, I want to see more than Schaub getting rid of the ball with a lightning release. I know that's why he was brought here, and I can see its very positive results (I won't dispute that), but I don't think that's made any of our front five guys better players. Rather, what the Texans did is instead of fixing the problem, they found a way around the problem. In the end, though, the problem of poor o-line play still exists and will eventually come back to haunt them this year.

What the Texans did to fix David Carr: throw more quarterback coaches at him.
What the Texans did to fix the line problems: pay good money for a pro-bowl running back and pay top-dollar for a new starting quarterback, both of which specialize in making the line look good.

In my opinion, it would have been easier and more expedient to simply buy or draft a top-tier left tackle and/or center.

I have not drunk the kool-aid, and I have not jumped on the bandwagon. Are the Texans improved? No doubt, but it's going to take a lot more than wins against a bottom-feeding Chiefs team and an NFC South team to make me feel confident. Is the play of the o-line still the major problem area? Only defensive secondary looks weaker to me.
 
Well, Texans Horror, it's been nice chatting with ya', but you completely lost me with your Carr blast. Dude was passed by 31 NFL teams to be a starter, and some of them have/had QB issues. The best he could land is a backup gig to Jake Delholme. So you are going against the grain of most analysis that have seen us the past few years and seen how much things have improved with Schaub. And to be honest, I'm going to believe what our offensive linemen, rest of team, and coaches say about it before I believe message board poster. No offense meant, but they tend to have more insight than any of us.

But it's all good. Some still wish to wear Carr homer blinders, and I respect your decision to do so. But, I think you will be proven wrong time and time again throughout this season, and until then, we'll leave it with the agree to disagree point of the discussion.
 
Well, Texans Horror, it's been nice chatting with ya', but you completely lost me with your Carr blast. Dude was passed by 31 NFL teams to be a starter, and some of them have/had QB issues. The best he could land is a backup gig to Jake Delholme. So you are going against the grain of most analysis that have seen us the past few years and seen how much things have improved with Schaub. And to be honest, I'm going to believe what our offensive linemen, rest of team, and coaches say about it before I believe message board poster. No offense meant, but they tend to have more insight than any of us.

But it's all good. Some still wish to wear Carr homer blinders, and I respect your decision to do so. But, I think you will be proven wrong time and time again throughout this season, and until then, we'll leave it with the agree to disagree point of the discussion.

To be fair, Carr most likely had at least a few starting gigs open for him. I don't think he was passed by 31 teams. I think he was actively looking to be a backup. Another great insight into his leadership.

With regards to the Carr issue, I dont get what Texans horror is saying. Its the exact same line. Carr would do just like Carr has always done. How does defense make the line better?

The thing is, its not that the line is a bad line made to look better by Schaub. They were an average line that looked a lot worse because of Carr.
 
Texans Horror, I'm having very difficult time believing you're being sincere in denying how Carr's lack of pocket presence, lack of understanding the fundamentals of when to release the ball, etc, effected how the offensive line looked.

I'd feel a lot better if you just fessed up and admitted that you are just trying to stir things up.

But if you're not . . .Jeez.
 
I think the line still has a long ways to go before becoming even an average line. To be a good line, I want to see more than Schaub getting rid of the ball with a lightning release. I know that's why he was brought here, and I can see its very positive results (I won't dispute that), but I don't think that's made any of our front five guys better players. Rather, what the Texans did is instead of fixing the problem, they found a way around the problem. In the end, though, the problem of poor o-line play still exists and will eventually come back to haunt them this year.

Before this year, there was an argument whether any QB could perform behind our line. There were arguments made that Manning and Brady would have looked really bad behind our line. I think that argument is almost totally deflated. At one point, weren't you arguing that there was no way around the problem and that Schaub was going to get killed?

The point isn't that Schaub is making these guys better players. They're still going to make mistakes. All lines make mistakes. Do you think that Manning isn't hiding some of his line's mistakes? Any good QB is going to make his line look better and Schaub is a good QB (who is still improving). The problem with Carr was that he made his line look worse. I think it was hard to get a feel for how good or bad our line was as long as Carr was back there.

Carr makes the line look worse; Schaub makes the line look better. The truth is somewhere in between.

We still need to improve the line. And it does need to be a priority. But I think that Kubiak has shown that the line is not the abyss of talent and skill that it looked like with Carr back there and it's not needing the same type of complete overhaul it looked like it needed.
 
Before this year, there was an argument whether any QB could perform behind our line. There were arguments made that Manning and Brady would have looked really bad behind our line. I think that argument is almost totally deflated. At one point, weren't you arguing that there was no way around the problem and that Schaub was going to get killed?

The point isn't that Schaub is making these guys better players. They're still going to make mistakes. All lines make mistakes. Do you think that Manning isn't hiding some of his line's mistakes? Any good QB is going to make his line look better and Schaub is a good QB (who is still improving). The problem with Carr was that he made his line look worse. I think it was hard to get a feel for how good or bad our line was as long as Carr was back there.

Carr makes the line look worse; Schaub makes the line look better. The truth is somewhere in between.

We still need to improve the line. And it does need to be a priority. But I think that Kubiak has shown that the line is not the abyss of talent and skill that it looked like with Carr back there and it's not needing the same type of complete overhaul it looked like it needed.
Kubiak has not been afraid to release poor players...and I think it speaks volumes that the line is largely unchanged from last season and that we have 3 of the 5 original starters from opening day 2002. Some people just won't admit that their pov from years past is flawed.
 
I forget that if you don't think Schaub is Superman that you must be a blind Carr homer. And I'd like to remind you all that many of those talking heads and experts believed that the Texans screwed up again in the draft because they didn't properly address the line. Many have wondered how good Schaub will do, though everybody admitted that Schaub was probably an upgrade over Carr. So just because they've switched positions doesn't mean I'm going to stop thinking the line needs to be addressed and is a huge problem area for the Texans.
 
I forget that if you don't think Schaub is Superman that you must be a blind Carr homer. And I'd like to remind you all that many of those talking heads and experts believed that the Texans screwed up again in the draft because they didn't properly address the line. Many have wondered how good Schaub will do, though everybody admitted that Schaub was probably an upgrade over Carr. So just because they've switched positions doesn't mean I'm going to stop thinking the line needs to be addressed and is a huge problem area for the Texans.

This "huge problem" has been so problematic that the team is 2-0 and have given up 2 sacks in two games. Zero against one of the best front 7's in the NFL. This same line never had a team score 31 points in 5 years, and they reeled off 34 unanswered points in less than a full game...the second game ever for Schaub. Yeah, it's a "huge problem" area.
 
Kubiak has not been afraid to release poor players...and I think it speaks volumes that the line is largely unchanged from last season and that we have 3 of the 5 original starters from opening day 2002. Some people just won't admit that their pov from years past is flawed.


Weary wasn't a starter in 2002, was he?

EDIT - I looked it up myself. Weary started 12 of 16 games in 2002. He did not start most of the following three years.
 
I believe there was some really loud cry about how bad our centers were.

On the other hand, at the moment, the line is not the same as last year.

How can you say that a banged-up McKinney and Salaam are the same as when they are healthy?

How can you say that a rookie like Winston is the same as a 2nd yr vet who's now more familiar with the system?

Even guys like Pitts and Weary can improve, can't they?
'Cause I don't think they have reached the top of their games yet.
 
And yes, I believe O.D. can improve as a blocker also.
And yes, I believe Ahman Green is a better blocker than Dayne can ever be.
 
I forget that if you don't think Schaub is Superman that you must be a blind Carr homer.

You're talking out of your assumption here. Nobody has advocated Schaub is Superman. Hyperbole not required.

We just recognize that he's a big upgrade over the QB we had before. Even the talking heads that could only talk about how Schaub was going to get killed behind the "worst.line.evar!" understand that they were wrong, as well. They changed their minds because their perceptions were faulty and it is clearly evident when looking at last year's team and looking at this year's work in progress.

The only reason I mentioned you're homering for Carr is your complete inability to recognize the dude is a bust in every sense of the word. A first overall pick in the draft should not be a backup by his 6th year if he's worthy of his draft status. You're trying to advocate that he'd be doing just as well as Schaub would right now, and that is a complete lack of reality comprehension when one QB is just better than the other. And to be honest, it doesn't take much to be better than David Carr.

As far as the line is concerned, I've never read anyone say that they are 'great'. But, they are better than many people thought, and, like most positions on the team, could always welcome upgrades.
 
Every aspect of the game for the Texans has changed since Kubiak took over. Now enter Matt Schaub.
Texans Football will never be the same.
THANK GOD!
 
The thing I've been seeing and really notice today is that Matt Schaub doesn't panic. He's gotten pressured quite a bit in the first half but it never looks like he's scared or bug-eyed. He makes his decision and goes. That play he ran for a 4 yard gain, David Carr would have looked really flustered and panicked big time, then gotten sacked.

Schaub looks like he can handle anything they bring at him. Go Schauby Go!
 
Value of Matt Schaub sucks right now.

The first INT wasn't his fault. But the 2nd one right after that huge jacoby return was aweful.

That now makes a VERY poor decision in each game:
1) KC- Underthrew AJ resulted in an INT in the endzone.
2) CAR- Underthrew AJ into coverage, resulted in an INT near the endzone- ruled incomplet luckily.
3) IND- poor throw over the middle that resulted in an INT near the endzone.

Come on Schaub!!
 
Boy, I tell ya . . . the knee jerks on this board.:dontknowa

Take away the primary and backup running backs, the primary receiver, and you want to go crybaby when he tries to make something happen.:crazy:

He's not perfect. He's going to make mistakes, but if you think HE's the problem, you clearly don't know much about the game.
 
Boy, I tell ya . . . the knee jerks on this board.:dontknowa

Take away the primary and backup running backs, the primary receiver, and you want to go crybaby when he tries to make something happen.:crazy:

He's not perfect. He's going to make maistakes, but if you think HE's the problem, you clearly don't know much about the game.

That's true. Just caught up in the moment.
 
Boy, I tell ya . . . the knee jerks on this board.:dontknowa

Take away the primary and backup running backs, the primary receiver, and you want to go crybaby when he tries to make something happen.:crazy:

He's not perfect. He's going to make maistakes, but if you think HE's the problem, you clearly don't know much about the game.

I'm just pointing out he has made some very poor decisions. Of course he's not going to be perfect, I don't expect him to be.

There's no way HE's the problem...He's the reason we were "always" in the game. It's just a little constructive critisism. Schaub is the MVP on our team. :)
 
Value of Matt Schaub sucks right now.

I can't believe the people on this board. Do people actually watch football games and remember what it used to look like. He threw some picks. One was tipped and not his fault. He had one bad throw. Besides that he has been the most unshakable and consistent person on our team. I'm really starting lose faith in the Texan fan if they think Schaub wasn't a top performer today despite a few hiccups. In the past we would not have even made it a game. He hit his last 13-14 throws and avoided their rush multiple times. To me I'm enjoying watching a team that seesm to be heading places. I don't like picks in the red zone but I don't think doom and gloom like in the past.

The difference between other years and this year....we expect to win and the QB does too. We haven't been able to say that before. We are 2-1 and have never had a QB perform the way Schaub has.
 
That's what happens when you can't run the ball. I think Gado isn't a very good running back. I haven't really seen anything positive out of him. We need to make some moves for another RB if Dayne and Green are going to be injured or playing with injuries.
 
Schaub is playing well right now, but he has to stop throwing interceptions in the red zone. He has done it every game so far and got lucky the one last week was overturned. He must stop that now.

But, I feel much more comfortable with the game on the line having the ball in Schaub's hands.
 
I can't believe the people on this board. Do people actually watch football games and remember what it used to look like. He threw some picks. One was tipped and not his fault. He had one bad throw. Besides that he has been the most unshakable and consistent person on our team. I'm really starting lose faith in the Texan fan if they think Schaub wasn't a top performer today despite a few hiccups. In the past we would not have even made it a game. He hit his last 13-14 throws and avoided their rush multiple times. To me I'm enjoying watching a team that seesm to be heading places. I don't like picks in the red zone but I don't think doom and gloom like in the past.

The difference between other years and this year....we expect to win and the QB does too. We haven't been able to say that before. We are 2-1 and have never had a QB perform the way Schaub has.

Didn't I already say I was caught up in the moment and took the statement back?
 
Didn't I already say I was caught up in the moment and took the statement back? Thanks for the (unneeded) speech though.

Yeah, sorry, but it wasn't just aimed at you. In fact I still wanted to write post apology because of other things I had read. No harm. No need to get smart. I can only type and see posts when I'm omnipotent in other areas of life. :)
 
That's fine. Now that I think about it, we didn't play too bad considering we had so many injuries in one game. AJ, Green, Jacoby, Killings, Dayne, McKinney, and I kno there are others.
 
Schaub has made one bad (by bad I mean an easy pick for the opposing team) throw each game thus far, but he also has shown the ability to make throws all over the field and hold onto the ball for the most part. He was 27/33 today against a good Colts D with absolutely no running game and no AJ. His first pick was just one of those fluke picks, it went through Jacoby's hands and off of his helmet for an easy pick, but it was a catchable throw and not Schaub's fault. The second pick I think Schaub was trying to give us a quick strike and forced a throw without seeing the linebacker underneath. Inexcusable considering the circumstances but hopefully he will learn from it.

Remember, Schaub is still going to make some "rookie" mistakes even though he's not a rookie. That was only his 5th professional start. Hopefully we'll see those easy picks less and less frequently as Schaub continues developing as a starting QB.
 
Schaub's amazing composure continues to impress me. The guy just looks absolutely unshakeable out there. He comes back on after that horrible interception and launches a 50 yard monster to Andre Davis.

That's a quarterback, I tell ya.
 
Schaub's amazing composure continues to impress me. The guy just looks absolutely unshakeable out there. He comes back on after that horrible interception and launches a 50 yard monster to Andre Davis.

That's a quarterback, I tell ya.
exactly. all quarterbacks make mistakes, they all throw interceptions, they all have fumbles here and there. but the ones that come back and throw a TD after the INT and learn from their mistakes....those are the ones that separate the good from the bad.
 
Schaub has made one bad (by bad I mean an easy pick for the opposing team) throw each game thus far...
Had the Texans shown any semblance of a running game, that play fake would have held Brackett and Schaub would have a TD pass rather than the INT. Thinking that play action would work there seems like an odd decision by Kubiak.

Matt Schaub has played extremely well thus far in the season. Considering his limited experience, he's better than anyone could have expected. Considering the talent he's playing with, Matt might be a MVP candidate if the Texans do make the playoffs (yes Jim Mora, I said playoffs). I'm very happy that Matt Schaub is the QB for the Houston Texans.
 
It looked like Schaub didn't even take a look to see if the receiver was open before he threw it. So I was "okay" thinking the play calling may have been part of it, but I was more concerned with the fumble we got away with.

Considering we were down to 3rd string RB and 2nd string receivers, he did a pretty good job. But a lot of credit to those receivers for stepping up.
 
You can't blame him for the first interception, but the second throw didn't seem to have a chance. In his fifth start and his third start with the Texans, against the defending Superbowl Champs and arguably best team in the league, I think he played quite well.

I look at the last drive. With your top two RBs and two of your top WRs out, that last drive was all him. He showed incredible toughness after that sack and hit a big time 4th and long.

Players make mistakes, teams have injuries and offenses stall against good defenses - it is about how you respond. Schaub didn't have his best game of the season, but we were in it until the end. This team would have gotten blown out in years past.
 
The only thing I'm concerned about with Schaub is the red zone decision making.
I think that will get better with experience. Overall, he has looked like the real deal.
 
Everyone else has held me together. I was at the game and extremely disappointed with that INT in the red zone, BUT Schaub did bounce back extremely well. You guys are helping me keep my head up. Schaub did play well against a really good team with Bob Sanders, and I just can't hold it against Schaub. He was missing an amazing receiver, a good running back, and a decent receiver. :texflag:
 
To me, the 4th down conversion near the end was the most impressive thing.

He had just got a face full of dirt and grass, and was pulling it out of his eyes and mouth, called a play, and got it done.

I would have liked them to work a little quicker at the end of the game, but I am guessing it wasn't easy to figure out what plays to call given which personnel is available. If you are pressed into using Jameel Cook as your running back, well then, you are doing a bit of creative thinking figuring out what you are going to run.
 
It looked like Schaub didn't even take a look to see if the receiver was open before he threw it. So I was "okay" thinking the play calling may have been part of it, but I was more concerned with the fumble we got away with.

Considering we were down to 3rd string RB and 2nd string receivers, he did a pretty good job. But a lot of credit to those receivers for stepping up.

This is what Kubiak said about it:

(on the play call that resulted in an interception in the redzone) “We were trying to run a pump scene. We were trying to set everybody down with a little pump to the left and more verticals. That’s a play that we’ve run on them a couple times with some success. The right linebacker did a heck of a job. He got back. If (QB) Matt (Schaub) sees that guy covered he should dump it down to (WR) Jerome (Mathis). So in hindsight you’d like to see him go to number three. On the spur of the moment there, we made a big play, we’re fixing to get right back in the ball game. We probably got a little greedy. That’s what we were doing right there. But he knows he can’t turn the ball over for us to have a chance to win this game.

That sort of play is a lot harder to run when your running game can't get going at all. The linebacker doesn't have to play honest.
 
Without the run game, the pass game becomes very difficult, especially in the Texans' schemes. They didn't have it this week, and that made everything that much harder. Salaam also didn't have a good day. Schaub looked rushed all day (though he did very well under pressure). I thought Flanagan did fine coming in for McKinney, but that the big loss, Ahman Green and Ron Dayne, pretty much put the game in the bag. (I thought the o-line did a poor job run-blocking.)

Sure Schaub threw a few picks, but he did very well. I knew the difference between KC and now is that KC wasn't able to do anything with an interception, and eventually the Texans would face a team that could really burn them on interceptions. Schaub is a vet in the league, but this is still his first season. He's only going to continue to improve.
 
I also felt like the losses of Dayne and Green really hurt the Texans chances to win. It may come as a surprise but I feel like Dayne was a bigger loss than Green. I want to see a team play keep away with a punishing up-the-middle RB against the Colts this season. I think it could be devastatingly effective against the smallish Colts.
 
Above all other things, the Texans need to be able to run the ball, and they need to be able to stop the run. Against KC and Carolina, they did just that. Today, they weren't able to do either. But the good news is that none of the injuries sound really bad. I'm hoping most of the guys (especially Green/Dayne) will be back by next week.
 
I also felt like the losses of Dayne and Green really hurt the Texans chances to win. It may come as a surprise but I feel like Dayne was a bigger loss than Green. I want to see a team play keep away with a punishing up-the-middle RB against the Colts this season. I think it could be devastatingly effective against the smallish Colts.

I'm not sure that the way that the Colts played today that Dayne would have made any difference. They intended to shut down the run, and schemed for it.

I do think that despite Schaub being able to move the ball around, the Texans really did miss AJ to be a bigger big play threat in making the Colts pay for stacking the box and to play honest.
 
I'm not sure that the way that the Colts played today that Dayne would have made any difference. They intended to shut down the run, and schemed for it.

I do think that despite Schaub being able to move the ball around, the Texans really did miss AJ to be a bigger big play threat in making the Colts pay for stacking the box and to play honest.

Eventually, some team with the right personnel and attitude is going to test my hypothesis that a smash-mouth power run approach might prove to be dominating against the Colts. I don't care that the Colts were focused on shutting down the run. I want to see them do it against a team with the nasty running mentality similar to the Larry Czonka era Dolphins, Earl Campbell era Oilers, John Riggins era Redskins, or most recently the Jerome Bettis era Steelers. I'm not conviced that they can stop that kind of running offense.
 
I'm not sure that the way that the Colts played today that Dayne would have made any difference. They intended to shut down the run, and schemed for it.

I do think that despite Schaub being able to move the ball around, the Texans really did miss AJ to be a bigger big play threat in making the Colts pay for stacking the box and to play honest.

Yeah AJ was surely missed.

I think had AJ been there they would have had to play back more or pay for it opening up the running game more and given us a better chance.

But Schaub did great with what he had...my ONLY ONLY knock against him is that every INT he has thrown has been in the redzone because he tries to force the TD. Hopefully he'll learn to stop doing that down there.
 
But Schaub did great with what he had...my ONLY ONLY knock against him is that every INT he has thrown has been in the redzone because he tries to force the TD. Hopefully he'll learn to stop doing that down there.

That bugs me as well, probably bugs Kubiak the most. He's only allowed to do that if we win!
 
That bugs me as well, probably bugs Kubiak the most. He's only allowed to do that if we win!

I think I will accept it until about week 8. I think he is just trying so hard to make the play, to be the guy he forces it. I don't know whats up but it has been a recurring theme. We leave points on the board when we turn it over in the redzone.
 
I also felt like the losses of Dayne and Green really hurt the Texans chances to win. It may come as a surprise but I feel like Dayne was a bigger loss than Green. I want to see a team play keep away with a punishing up-the-middle RB against the Colts this season. I think it could be devastatingly effective against the smallish Colts.

I don't know. This Colt defense is alot better at stopping the run than the one we saw last year.
 
I don't know. This Colt defense is alot better at stopping the run than the one we saw last year.

I think the Colts like TC said stacked the box and never paid for it. Which is why Andre just being there as a threat helped. Also Dayne worked against the Colts so well because their defense focuses on speed, so if you have a power back in there you'd expect them to fall forward 5 yards consistently.
 
I was one of the most vocal supporters of Carr last year. At the same time, around mid December I could see the writing on the wall. Carr was no good for Houston and we were no good for him. I started calling for Schaub about that time. I was very excited to see we had made the trade. I felt by the end, that Carr was unfixable. I think he had potential, but that Capers and CC had screwed him up by the end of the 3rd season. There was a QB that was smart enough to hold the ball out over the goal line as he was being sacked.. avoiding the safety.. don't know what happened to him... but he dissapeared by the 2nd half of year 3. He became gunshy and sickly looking. He was durable physically but I fear, he wasn't mentally. Either wasy the split was good for everyone. Maybe Carr can go get reprogrammed and start again. As for Schaub. He's everything I wanted..

1. He's smart..
2. He's decisive
3. He's got an arm
4. He's not good looking so I don't have to worry about my wife staring at him while we're watching the game.

Mike
 
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