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The New New JaDeveon Clowney Thread

edwardc5637

Waterboy
He is going to be ok just having him on the field will make a difference other teams will have to think about what to do with him .
 

MasterCush

Practice Squad
Saw Clowney in a video made within the last few days and his right leg does look significantly thinner.



The camera angle might make it seem skinnier, but it reminds me of when I got my cast off. My arm was in a cast for 8 weeks. It was skinnier but it only took a couple months for it to beef up again.

If he can run around well and feels good, then I'd start him day one if he says he is ready. Otherwise, I'd consider waiting a month or two into the season.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
I'm leaning towards camera angle. Hell, he could have a squirrel clutched his calf there and we couldn't tell from just the simple snapshot.
 

frethack

Rookie
Saw Clowney in a video made within the last few days and his right leg does look significantly thinner.



The camera angle might make it seem skinnier, but it reminds me of when I got my cast off. My arm was in a cast for 8 weeks. It was skinnier but it only took a couple months for it to beef up again.

If he can run around well and feels good, then I'd start him day one if he says he is ready. Otherwise, I'd consider waiting a month or two into the season.
Noting the direction that the tabs on his shoes are facing, the left leg is being seen from a profile and the right leg is viewed at a 3/4 angle. Id be sure that the right leg has atrophied, but in this case it appears to be the camera angle that is exaggerating it.
 

Playoffs

Hall of Fame


Texans DE Jadeveon Clowney: Balancing Expectations, Tricky Microfracture Rehab

Great Investment. Great Expectation. And an Injury Requiring Great Patience.

A pretty safe case can be made that last year's hottest incoming NFL player is the one with the biggest question mark in 2015. Jadeveon Clowney, last year's top overall pick, is trying to fight his way back from an injury-plagued first year that ended with microfracture surgery on his right knee. It's very early in his promising career, but with great investment comes great expectation. Clowney is in the precarious position of trying to prove that he was worth his lofty draft status while recovering from a difficult medical procedure.

Microfracture surgery amounts to drilling tiny holes - "fractures" - in the lower leg bone plate, allowing blood and bone marrow to seep and form a blood clot, releasing cartilage-building stem cells from the marrow. Basically, you're attempting to rebuild cartilage from scar tissue. On big-bodied athletes like the 6'5, 270 pound Clowney, this can be a tricky rehab, as you have to patiently rebuild the new cartilage under the weight of a big frame. Caution in the recovery is of the utmost importance, especially in that the explosiveness in Clowney's legs is the football asset the team is likely most interested in preserving - the attribute that made him such a highly-touted pick in the first place.


Arthroscopic view of the microfracture technique

We've all heard his impressive football profile countless times by now. Clowney is one of those rare players whose physical attributes far exceed other players at his position, as much so as any player since another Houston Texan almost a decade ago: Mario Williams. Clowney has an unbelievably quick first step, an extraordinarily explosive athlete who can blow by offensive tackles on one play, then run through a running back like he's tissue paper the next. His size-to-speed ratio is off the charts - a quality that's as important as any for Clowney to retain when he comes out the other end of this difficult rehabilitation process.

With any player acquisition where there is potential for greatness there is also a potential for failure. With Clowney, the most persistent draft question was his consistency...his motor. That question arose because of spotty play during his last season in college. Critics pointed out that there were times throughout his last year in college where he looked disinterested.

That might lead one to believe that this particular kind of rehab might bring out some of those perceived negative qualities. At times during last season, while rehabbing another knee ailment, those perceptions seemed to come to fruition with the organization privately expressing concerns about Clowney's maturity.



Since the decision late last year to undergo the procedure, the tide has seemed to turn. Texans players and coaches are now talking about how well Clowney has handled the offseason, with the team's leader, JJ Watt, speaking openly about the positive changes in Clowney's approach and maturity. Head coach Bill O'Brien, as no-nonsense a coach as there is in the NFL, also praised Clowney's work during his recovery saying, "He's worked extremely hard. I think he's moving well, I think he feels better. We'll be looking forward to seeing where he's at once we get back here at the end of July."

Maybe all of this is just hopeful glow coming from Texans leadership, or maybe its the real deal. Whatever the case, Clowney is the one who has the final say on any narrative surrounding the kind of professional football player he is going to be. The difficult balance for him will be proving how much he's grown and how badly he wants to be out there with his teammates, all the while battling an injury that a player has to be extremely careful with and not rush.
...
Clowney's competition is with his own body, his own development. Realizing his potential with his own organization should be the focus, not competing with the another player on another team. Control what you can control. Although it may sound premature and too early in the process to put pressure on Clowney to perform, the reality is when you're drafted as high as he was, the expectations are even higher. But if the pressure to perform prompts a player to rush a tenuous rehab to "prove something," the problems for his career can become just as serious as unmet expectations. The dream of Clowney and JJ Watt as an extremely disruptive defensive duo is still a very real possibility, but it will take smart and diligent efforts from team and player to make that happen.

Based on the investment, the Houston Texans would likely love to see that idea realized sooner rather than later. Not in a year. Not in two years. Based on O'Brien's optimistic outlook, the team seems anxious for a return on their sizable investment this fall. In the end, it's incumbent upon Clowney to reward the team's patience and support, heal smartly, and harness his talent to make sure that dream comes true for everyone.​


by Brady Poppinga

Former BYU linebacker, 8 Years in NFL
Super Bowl champion with Green Bay Packers
Author, "True Spirit of Competition"
http://tinyurl.com/pafz5mn
 

Playoffs

Hall of Fame
This is more in line whith what Dr CND has been posting...

Monday Morning MD: Articular cartilage is the Holy Grail

Injury to articular cartilage has ended more NFL careers than any other physical ailment. Solving this medical problem would mean the Nobel Prize in medicine.

Broncos LB Danny Trevathan said he “got somebody else’s kneecap” to solve this problem. That is hardly the case, although damage to articular cartilage of the patella is especially difficult to treat as it responds poorly to microfracture. Likely, he has a cadaver bone/cartilage plug (osteochondral allograft-OATS) that has been placed into his own kneecap. Whole-patella transplants don’t work and are just not done in the NFL or in regular patients. It is too difficult to anchor a floating bone to the tendon and get blood supply to regenerate in the kneecap.

In medicine, anytime a first-time procedure is done, that means either it is a new condition that has never been seen before (highly unlikely) or there is no good solution to the problem and a new technique is attempted.

My formal entry into the league involved performing a new cartilage regrowth procedure. In the mid 1990’s, I performed the first Genzyme Carticel surgery on a NFL player. After harvesting some of his cartilage and growing these cells in a laboratory, it was re-implanted. He did return to some football, but the procedure certainly cannot be termed a long-term success or we would all be doing the procedure routinely today.

Articular cartilage is also Jadeveon Clowney’s problem. He had an initial knee scope to treat the meniscus tear and then had to have a subsequent microfracture procedure. By definition, the need to regrow cartilage indicates a down to bone lesion. I certainly hope he goes on to a productive career, but a full-thickness cartilage defect in a 22 year-old is ominous. The good news is Clowney is expected for the start of training camp.

Despite being treated by his team physician who is one of the best in the country, the question is how long his new surface will last. The knee heals with fibrocartilage that fills in the defect and is never as strong as the original hyaline cartilage. I hope I am wrong, but even if Clowney lives up to his number one overall pick promise this year, he would have to beat the odds to make it to a second contract.

Limited results with microfracture lead us to try new techniques. I hope Trevathan is the first, but in my two decades involved with the NFL, I am not aware of long term success of osteochondral allograft of any kind, much less in the patella. Despite medical advances, the orthopedic profession just doesn’t have the final answer yet​
 

Number19

Hall of Fame
... the question is how long his new surface will last. The knee heals with fibrocartilage that fills in the defect and is never as strong as the original hyaline cartilage...
I can't recall - it's been several months - but this is not something new to me. The article I'm remembering also said that the longer you wait, the stronger the repair gets. This is why sitting out the year and not coming back until the 2016 season would be for the long term best. But we all know this will in all probability not happen.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
UNDATED (CNN) -- The world's first full head transplant could take place as soon as 2017 if the controversial plans by Italian neuroscientist Dr Sergio Canavero come to pass. Wheelchair-bound Valery Spiridonov, who has the muscle-wasting Werdnig Hoffman disease, has volunteered to have his head transplanted onto a healthy body in a day-long operation.

Read More at: http://www.local12.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/Will-a-head-transplant-create-a-new-person--155008.shtml
Need a new head ? NP ! Looks like this dude is gonna get fixed up pretty quick with his brand new head. What the hell, how come thy can't get my boy Jadevon a brand spankin new, better than ever knee cap ! Seems to me in this day and age that should be a snap ?
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I can't recall - it's been several months - but this is not something new to me. The article I'm remembering also said that the longer you wait, the stronger the repair gets. This is why sitting out the year and not coming back until the 2016 season would be for the long term best. But we all know this will in all probability not happen.
The fibrocartilage produced by microfracture surgery is basically matured and remolded (to relatively smooth out the lumps and bumps originally produced by the surgery) by ~6 months. The time taken beyond that is typically mostly for rehabbing strength and coordination and confidence. It has been shown that functional improvement (degree is variable from patient to patient) occurs up to 18 months following surgery, but tends to decrease significantly after that, as the fibrocartilage begins to significantly wear/shave down and changes of arthritis from the original injury begin to appear. In the case of the professional athlete, the extra stresses placed on this psuedo cartilage hastens the process. What's interesting is that most orthopedic surgeons that perform microfracture surgeries will counsel their patients that success of this surgery depends life-long activity modifications..........and, in the case of those wanting to return to sports, to specifically avoid cutting maneuvers These cutting actions are the hardest on true hyaline knee cartilage in general, but much harder on the weaker and less durable fibrocratilage of microfracture surgery. And don't forget that removal of some of Clowney's lateral meniscus cartilage has already destabilized the knee to some extent and makes cutting even more traumatic to the knee cartilage. Limiting cutting movements would be difficult enough if it were advise given to a weekend warrior, but would be entirely out of the question for a player like Clowney.
 
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Number19

Hall of Fame
...It has been shown that functional improvement (degree is variable from patient to patient) occurs up to 18 months following surgery...
December 2015 will be 12 months. Allowing for differences in the patient, maximum improvement could reasonably not be expected until OTA's in the 2016 off-season. My unprofessional reasoning is that, for a surgery which has not achieved maximum functional improvement, there is a corresponding increased risk for re-injury. Cushing made it through last season without further damage. This year we should see his best post-operative performance. Clowney's comeback should follow the same timeline.
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
The fibrocartilage produced by microfracture surgery is basically matured and remolded (to relatively smooth out the lumps and bumps originally produced by the surgery) by ~6 months. The time taken beyond that is typically mostly for rehabbing strength and coordination and confidence. It has been shown that functional improvement (degree is variable from patient to patient) occurs up to 18 months following surgery, but tends to decrease significantly after that, as the fibrocartilage begins to significantly wear/shave down and changes of arthritis from the original injury begin to appear. In the case of the professional athlete, the extra stresses placed on this psuedo cartilage hastens the process. What's interesting is that most orthopedic surgeons that perform microfracture surgeries will counsel their patients that success of this surgery depends life-long activity modifications..........and, in the case of those wanting to return to sports, to specifically avoid cutting maneuvers These cutting actions are the hardest on true hyaline knee cartilage in general, but much harder on the weaker and less durable fibrocratilage of microfracture surgery. And don't forget that removal of some of Clowney's lateral meniscus cartilage has already destabilized the knee to some extent and makes cutting even more traumatic to the knee cartilage. Limiting cutting movements would be difficult enough if it were advise given to a weekend warrior, but would be entirely out of the question for a player like Clowney.
To translate into layman's terms - if he ever makes a probowl, swear off ever purchasing a lottery ticket and all dangerous activities because your luck wad has been shot.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
December 2015 will be 12 months. Allowing for differences in the patient, maximum improvement could reasonably not be expected until OTA's in the 2016 off-season.

The 18 month cutoff was determined by anatomic changes in the areas of lesions seen on MRI. OTAs 2016 would be approximately the 18 month period where the fibrocartilage and performance (from what had maximally been attained any time since surgery) typically begins to deteriorate.


My unprofessional reasoning is that, for a surgery which has not achieved maximum functional improvement, there is a corresponding increased risk for re-injury.

Maximal functional anatomical improvement is not synonymous with achieved performance level. It should be noted that this study included non athlete patients. So these changes were noted in patients whose typical stresses were from simple activities like walking and climbing stairs. Furthermore, patients with a history of meniscal damage were excluded from the study, since such damage would account for some degree of joint instability and be expected to skew the results downward. There won't be any argument from me that not being rehabbed to optimal muscle strength and coordination would likely lead to further injury, but this does not require 18 months.

Cushing made it through last season without further damage. This year we should see his best post-operative performance. Clowney's comeback should follow the same timeline.


With the type injury(ies) he has been coming back from, I wouldn't be so quick to this conclusion. Especially with his tibia plateau injury, whether reported or not, there has probably been progressive cartilage damage. This is another type of injury that can often follow a "wear down" history, where some prolonged rest can allow a limited, usually short period of satisfactory performance followed by a notable reversal with increased mileage. It would not surprise me at all if we hear that microfracture surgery comes up into discussion with Cushing in the next year.

And based on all their differences and circumstances, I would definitely hesitate to compare any given timelines between Cushing and Clowney.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Seems to me (from reading Doc and following up on his info), I'll pick odds rather than reality, are Cushing gets into the probowl before Clowney.

TRANSACTIONS:
Selected by Houston Texans in the first round (15th pick overall) of the 2009 NFL Draft...Signed by Texans on Aug. 2, 2009...Placed on injured reserve on Oct. 10, 2012.... Placed on injured reserve on Oct. 28, 2013

HONORS:
Associated Press All-Pro Second Team (2009, 2011)
Associated Press Defensive Rookie of the Year (2009)
Pro Bowl Selection (2010)
Pro Football Weekly/PFWA All-AFC Team (2011)
Houston Texans Team Most Valuable Player (2011)
Ed Block Courage Award Winner (2013)
Houston Texans Team Rookie of the Year (2009)
AFC Defensive Player of the Week (Week 6, 2009; Week 8, 2009)
NFL Defensive Rookie of the Month (November, 2009; December, 2009)
Pro Football Weekly/PFWA Defensive Rookie of the Year (2009)
Pro Football Weekly/PFWA All-Rookie Team (2009)
GMC Never Say Never Moment of the Week for Week 1 fourth-quarter interception return for a touchdown at San Diego
http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster/Brian-Cushing/6807ee1b-2f18-4c4c-bbaa-17c0ed9f0635
****
My advise to you would be to make that bet all day long if you can.
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
My guess is he was talking future not past
It really wasn't that hard, was it?

I believe he'd take option #3: neither.
I'm sure he would.

And while I respect his medical opinion he is well aware I think he sees diminished results on the field sometimes where they don't exist (while full well acknowledging he spots some great mechanical tells like Schaub's plant foot motion).

Clowney's toast. We'll be lucky if he becomes Whitney Mercilus while playing out his guaranteed contract. Even if he gets on the field his greatest asset, his get off, is what is most diminished.

Cushing shared something with DeMeco that can't be taken away by injury - football smarts and instincts. If he is and can stay healthy, even at a diminished physical ability he could be an asset.
 
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Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Need a new head ? NP ! Looks like this dude is gonna get fixed up pretty quick with his brand new head. What the hell, how come thy can't get my boy Jadevon a brand spankin new, better than ever knee cap ! Seems to me in this day and age that should be a snap ?
Being the bell cow in a medical procedure is usually an act of desperation. But there are always desperate people ready, willing and able to take the chance. I never thought I would ever be that desperate until I experienced infection generated 12 on the 1-10 pain scale (intentional hyperbole which I know is mathematically impossible). Fortunately, it was only for a few hours (that I can remember since I don't remember the next two weeks).

But perhaps these new procedures for athletes are sufficiently small incremental steps that desperation is not required. The cost benefit changes when you depend on your health for your income.

In any event, I hope all involved have favorable outcomes.
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Rather than begin a new thread in the NFL section, I thought that this might be appropriate to post in this thread in that Sabin had some non-supportive statements when asked about Clowney around Draft time............and Clowney in turn recently returning the favor.

Plaxico Burress blasts Nick Saban as a liar

After Alabama coach Nick Saban complained that some of his players look ahead to the NFL draft instead of focusing on finishing their college careers, one of Saban’s former players lashed out.

Plaxico Burress, who played for Saban at Michigan State, says that Saban is a liar who puts his own interests ahead of the interests of his players — and Burress thinks it’s only fair that Alabama players should put their needs first, too.

“I was a 19 year old kid, the man that recruited me to play for him, look me in my face and told me a lie,” Burress wrote on Twitter.

Saban quit Michigan State at the end of Burress’s final season there, jumping ship to coach LSU and not staying to coach Michigan State’s bowl game. Burress says that just before Saban left, he promised his players he wasn’t leaving.

“Saban looked his players in the face at the [Michigan State football facility], said he wasn’t leaving, ‘I’m committed to the program,’ and was gone the next day. True story,” Burress wrote.

Burress also suggested that Saban misled him about his pro prospects, apparently to get him to stay focused on playing in college instead of focusing on the NFL draft.

“Nick Saban actually told me I was a second round pick,” said Burress, who was the eighth overall pick in the 2000 NFL draft. “I recall Nick Saban telling me to stay in school finish what I started, I wasn’t 1st round pick and he left for LSU before the season was over.”

Burress told Saban of college players who look ahead to the NFL, “the kids are just chasing a dream that you were.” Burress is right about that.
 
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Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Rather than begin a new thread in the NFL section, I thought that this might be appropriate to post in this thread in that Sabin had some non-supportive statements when asked about Clowney around Draft time............and Clowney in turn recently returning the favor.
Honorable people are getting rarer all the time.

But this post was a non-supportive of Sabin article by Burress, not Clowney. Is this a mistake or broken link?
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
Some people see, but do not perceive.
Your dollar store rolodex-o-wisdom doesn't change that I perceive what I see just fine Marshall.

I'm just glad that you've found your own miserable little planet to condescend from. If you ever want to escape that 4 foot radial bubble I can assure you there are decent and caring people of honor with which to interact from where I sit. My only advice is to try your hardest not to cast any stone when they reach out for a handshake.
 

Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Spend a few moments, or hours as necessary, and you'll understand how stupid that response is.
It isn't required to understand which category a certain someone is in.

Mark
4:9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’a]">[a]”
 

Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Your dollar store rolodex-o-wisdom doesn't change that I perceive what I see just fine Marshall.

I'm just glad that you've found your own miserable little planet to condescend from. If you ever want to escape that 4 foot radial bubble I can assure you there are decent and caring people of honor with which to interact from where I sit. My only advice is to try your hardest not to cast any stone when they reach out for a handshake.
I assure you there is no condescension. Just observation of truth. Rare does not mean non existent, only precious and a treasure when found.
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
It isn't required to understand which category a certain someone is in.

Mark
4:9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’a]">[a]”
Just stop
 

PapaL

Loose Screw
Not sure if this has been shared before:

The Medical Edge For A Former No. 1 NFL Pick
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybarca/2015/07/19/the-medical-edge-for-a-former-no-1-nfl-pick/

Typically, given the knee injury and subsequent surgery, a guy Clowney’s size would have lost about three centimeters of girth around his quadricep. That didn’t happen. Not even close. He lost between a 1/2 centimeter and 1 centimeter, said Dr. Walt Lowe, the head team physician for the Texans.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Not sure if this has been shared before:

The Medical Edge For A Former No. 1 NFL Pick
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybarca/2015/07/19/the-medical-edge-for-a-former-no-1-nfl-pick/
***
Typically, given the knee injury and subsequent surgery, a guy Clowney’s size would have lost about three centimeters of girth around his quadricep. That didn’t happen. Not even close. He lost between a 1/2 centimeter and 1 centimeter, said Dr. Walt Lowe, the head team physician for the Texans.
Clowney “looks spectacular,” Lowe said
*******
Or perhaps the reason has to do with JD being an extraordinary physical specimen ?
 

Playoffs

Hall of Fame
Not sure if this has been shared before:

The Medical Edge For A Former No. 1 NFL Pick
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybarca/2015/07/19/the-medical-edge-for-a-former-no-1-nfl-pick/
Was posted in the old JdC thread:http://www.texanstalk.com/posts/2456207/

From Tania's 2/2015 article:http://espn.go.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/10132/clowney-fitzpatrick-cushing-undergoing-blood-flow-restriction-training

With Dr CND's follow-up posts after that link, but cannot quote & paste here because topic is locked.

Doesn't affect the underlying problems, only potentially quicker muscular recovery.
 

PapaL

Loose Screw
Was posted in the old JdC thread:http://www.texanstalk.com/posts/2456207/

From Tania's 2/2015 article:http://espn.go.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/10132/clowney-fitzpatrick-cushing-undergoing-blood-flow-restriction-training

With Dr CND's follow-up posts after that link, but cannot quote & paste here because topic is locked.

Doesn't affect the underlying problems, only potentially quicker muscular recovery.
This sounded like the follow up 5 months later...since they had those measurements in the article.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I wonder if the docs used stem cell therapy on JDC. My brother just had his second shoulder surgery and they used stem cell therapy. He said the difference was night and day.
 

edo783

Hall of Fame
The thing that grabbed my attention was that they used some sort of a blood pressure cuff to create high stress on the muscle without straining the joint. Seems have worked for J.D. fairly well since he has very little muscle mass loss. Real cutting edge treatment is what they say.
 
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thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I wonder if the docs used stem cell therapy on JDC. My brother just had his second shoulder surgery and they used stem cell therapy. He said the difference was night and day.
I thought CnD said microfracture surgery technically releases stem cells from the bone...
 

Marshall

Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I thought CnD said microfracture surgery technically releases stem cells from the bone...
While most of the controversy about stem cells is over fetal stem cells, most of the success has come from adult stem cells, at least the last time I checked. I'm not sure how they categorize the various therapies which could broadly be called stem cell therapy. I suspect a basic difference would be between introduction of new stem cells and utilization of existing stem cells. Then a further distinction between types of stem cells and finally differences in techniques. This is where information from someone familiar with the procedures is invaluable.

It would be interesting to see some specifics.
 


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