I guess you don’t know how sports deals work then. And precedent.
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Texans / Lamar Jackson SI article
- Thread starter Generic Fan
- Start date
Texansballer74
The Marine
The Ravens got away with the non-exclusive tag because there's an unwritten rule to not give fully guaranteed deals at the top of the market. It's collusion. 2 1sts is a very fair price for a franchise QB. The Browns just gave up 3 for one with all sorts of warts. There's only one reason Jackson doesn't have an offer sheet in his hand.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Expound?
Because of the unwritten edict of not issuing guaranteed contracts.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Nothing stopping any GM from making an offer that isn't fully guaranteed...
Sorry, I misread the question originally.
If Jackson wanted such a contract, he would have been able to negotiate that and have an offer sheet. He's not looking for that.
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sandman
Brexit Advisor
So the owners are colluding to not give him any contract, fully guaranteed or not?
The owners are scared he won't be available to play at his current method long term
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
so u don’t believe that the draft capital they’d have to come off of AND having to pay him isn’t a deterrent to other teams?
Why do u believe the Ravens used the NE tag in the 1st place instead of the franchise tag?
If you’re so sure no team would give him what he’s asking for …if you’re so sure he can’t stay healthy playing the way he does why have the caveat of right to match if another team offers? Let him negotiate freely off the tag..or better yet work with him to come to a sensible deal where all parties can be satisfied if you don’t want to pay him what he thinks hes worth…thats not what they’re doing though. They put him on an invisible leash by stacking the deck against him and colluding to avoid the bigger deal of setting a precedent.
The Ravens are trying to strong arm him into the 3 year deal they have on the table.
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SeriousShizzle
Rookie
Bwahahahaahaha!!!!!!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lamar cant win big on super organized team.........now put him Texans where we cant even run our RB's. Ohhh boy
Lamar would rather disembowel self than play here.
Lamar cant win big on super organized team.........now put him Texans where we cant even run our RB's. Ohhh boy
Lamar would rather disembowel self than play here.
Again we can look at the Watson situation. There were multiple teams that met Caserio's ask & he hasn't had the success Lamar has. LJ may not agree with our idea of a franchise QB, buy I wouldn't be surprised if there were 2 or 3 teams willing to give up two 1s
Or they understand his rights are a commodity they own.
Maybe. If you think the Texans were trying to strong arm Watson. It's pretty much the same thing.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
There’s no question they understand that they have his rights and they want to benefit from a trade of some type for him….but that’s not the narrative everyone in here and in the media are putting forth. The narrative is that “well they’re letting him negotiate any deal he wants with any other team, but obviously noone wants to pay him what he thinks he’s worth therefore he needs to chill..”..as if the market’s not there…but what we know from the DW4 trade is that it is there….& also that a huge part of the reason why the market appears to not be there for him is the draft capital any team would have to give up to get him…plus the contract….in which case the Ravens put that there themselves…and that makes no sense.
consider what the Ravens are saying with their moves. he’s apparently NOT good enough of a franchise qb to pay him the 200 million guaranteed…..but he’s apparently a good enough of a franchise qb to warrant 2 1sts from any team who wants to sign him..and apparently good enough for us to want the right to match any offer he may recieve…They in essence are talking out of both sides of their mouth. He’s either a franchise qb or he’s not. And they’re exploiting this situation of him trying to determine his worth by manipulating the market (collusion) and by stacking the deck against him instead of letting the market do it by itself. Why? B/c THEY as owners can’t control themselves...& because they can.
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OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Spot on Tex!!! The way these owners conduct themselves business wise in the NFL makes me wonder if they just won major lotteries before buying a franchise.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I guess that makes sense. I mean, there's no possibility that 31 NFL teams could all arrive at the same "I ain't doing that stupid s***" conclusion at the same time. The hard part to figure out is where the blinding flash of the obvious stops and collusion begins.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I'm not sure that we know it is there. One team (Cleveland) doing something idiotic doesn't mean there's a line of teams who are also willing to do the same thing or something similar. To this day I'm still amazed at what Cleveland sent to the Texans and Watson. In my mind it's like "Why would you even consider tying yourself to this POS much less guaranteeing it?"
Practically all NBA and MLB contracts are guaranteed. It's not that big of a deal, financially. Especially considering the value of these franchises (Washington is about to sell for over $6 billion).
The NFL has been able to not guarantee contracts forever because...no one offered them. Then one team offered one QB a fully guaranteed 5 year deal. Not the richest franchise. But a franchise that wasn't going to get what they considered a franchise QB any other way.
We had what, a dozen teams entering this offseason needing a franchise QB. And an age 26 former MVP QB with a 73% winning percentage who is arguably as good, if not better than Watson. And no one signs the guy to an offer sheet that only cost 2 1st round picks? Trey Lance, a small college QB with one year of experience, cost the Niners 3 1st round picks. Watson, with all of his misgivings, gets 3 1st rounders + in return. Jackson? A huge bargain for 2 1sts. No bites. None.
But hey, NFL teams are just being smart. Like signing mid level QBs like Carr and Jones for $150 million. They're so smart. No collusion at all here. Nothing to look at.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
And for precisely the fact you cite about QB needy teams makes me think there is more to it than collusion.
LJ needs to be used in a specific system and teams are just not prepared to go down that road.
There may also be character concerns or something else that is hiding under the surface.
Mere money and draft picks would not stop a QB hungry team from signing him.
There are systems that Jackson can make work. He's led top 10 offenses.
Character concerns? I hate rank speculation. The character of NFL owner's collectively manipulating the market is Occum's Razor. Who realistically thinks the NFL is not doing this?
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
It's possible, but until I see evidence, it is still speculation.
Occam is the correct spelling.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
I'm struggling to understand how owners want to give lots of money to franchise QB's, but not fully guaranteed, is collusion. The league isn't in cahoots against Jackson.
It isn't just about giving up two first round picks. It isn't just about a massive fully guaranteed contract. It is about the two together, and the rest of the league looks at what Cleveland did as desperation and not a solid business model. And I don't blame them. The Haslems don't exactly have the best track record as NFL owners or as business owners.
Personally, I don't believe that Watson was worth the combination of the draft picks and massive contract. I don't think Jackson is either.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
The market’s there. Kirk Cousins has proven its there for the last 6-7 years in which he has signed for what is nearly the equivalent of what Lamar is asking for. His 1st was for 3 yr. 84 mill…the 1 after that was for 2 years 66 mil…all guaranteed over 5 years of play. This was for a guy who’d done NOTHING before and really has done nothing since and is also not counting the 2 franchise tags he played under in washington which were also fully guaranteed.
People are only citing the DW4 contract b/c its the 1st time a team gave that much in 1 contract..
The reported reservations the Ravens have about whether he can stay healthy is another bogus argument. Last year he missed games but reportedly could’ve played but packed it in…put yourself in his shoes tho. You’re in the last year of your contract with a team you’ve taken to the playoffs every year, an AFCCG and won an MVP with. So..if you can’t get a favorable contract now after having done all that, what kind of contract do u think the Ravens offer him if he goes out there, tries to play & already not close to 100% and compounds his injury situation with say an ACL.
Do u think the Ravens use that against him in the contract negotiations to low ball him even more? Almost certainly.
So again, the Ravens are talking out of both sides of their mouths here b/c they’re going to count him missing games the same across the board not factoring in how much this kid stood to lose b/c they’re taking a hardline stance in contract talks.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I just question whether they even need to do this. At this point all they have to do is stay the course. It's a no-brainer from their perspective. All sports have the potential for injury but neither the NBA nor MLB put players in the kind of danger that professional football does. I get why they're averse to offering them to players.
I'm sure they're coming to the NFL. There's no doubt the next player to get one is probably playing right now. I just don't think LJ is being realistic. He's not worth that (Watson wasn't worth that) and he's in a system where the team that signs him has to give up so much. The next guy to get one will be asking for a lot less than LJ is.
Bla bla bla .... the owners are evil.
Let's not forget that Jackson has only played a full season once in his career and that was his rookie year.
The Ravens With Jackson have missed the playoffs the past two seasons ....
What are the odds that he actually plays 17 games & leads a team to the playoffs.
Slim just left the building and you are left with none.
I'm not giving that guy a guaranteed $200million either. No collusion involved.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
And teams may just simply be doing due diligence and waiting to see if he is willing to get his head out of the clouds.
Porky
Hall of Fame
Lamar is garbage. Stupid garbage at that. His play style is going to lead to Cam Newton 2.0 and a very shortened career, he can't hit the broad side of a barn, can't lead his team from behind, has to be put into a very specific offense and wants a stupid big guaranteed contract, and it will cost multiple #1 draft picks, and y'all are talking about collusion? You guys have the wrong C word - it's common sense, not collusion. Nobody wants him at that price, even the Ravens. Let his dumb ass sit out all year. He can go sell ice cream and dole out 64 flavors of goodness at Baskin Robbins.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
C’mon man. The NFL has always been the least progressive league of all 4 sports. They don’t want to start to give out fully guaranteed contracts to players like all the other major sports for the same reasons they didn’t want to admit about how their game was linked to high incidences of concussions….for the same reason they fought the Colin Kaepernick case….and for the same reasons they don’t want to admit that they have a problem with how many minorities get legit, timely opportunities to be HC’s.
Money & the good ol’ boy system.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Is the market there though? We look back at Cousins getting franchised and multiple shorter guaranteed contracts, but that is not the same as guaranteeing the entire 7 years at the beginning of the 7 years. Just because he ended up with 7 straight years of guaranteed contracts doesn't mean that 7-year contracts are a solid business plan.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Was Cousins worth that? I don't think so and you are right, people are citing the DW4 contract because it's the first time anyone offered that. LJ wants to be the second and he wants to the be the second one right after Watson got his. Those are dumb contracts (Watson and Cousins) and realistically the only guys at that position who should be able to earn that kind of "epic" money should be QB's who have gotten it done either with rings or statistically and wins. So Lamar has been a winner and an MVP and should be looking at a big payday. I don't question that even a little bit. I do think that things like his style of play hurt him here a lot.
He can get a favorable contract after doing all of that. He just isn't going to get his pie-in-the-sky dream contract with guarantees and sprinkles. Nobody wants to do that and I don't blame them. Maybe if he wants insane money guaranteed he should walk out there on that plank with Kirk and bet on himself with a series of short deals. Oh wait, Lamar don't want to do that? I wonder why not?
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Of course, having a hard salary cap unlike the NBA and MLB have absolutely nothing to do with how contracts are structured.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Well if you look across the league, you’ll notice most teams have gone to that style of play.It's possible, but until I see evidence, it is still speculation.
Occam is the correct spelling.
Imo this is how these jokers operate. Allows a player like Watson with his off the field antics to get paid like that. But won’t yo blackball Jackson who isn’t out there acting a darn fool and tarnishing their brand a hard freaking time. And the nerve of these jokers to bring up his playing style. They have been doing this since the draft.
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Texansballer74
The Marine
It’s called greed. Imo none of these players should be getting contracts like that.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He kinda already did that by playing out the 5th year option on his rookie deal….a deal he VASTLY outperformed after his 2019 MVP year. And as you know most times emerging star players usually get their extensions in the4th year on their rookie deals; virtually unheard of for them to play on their 5th year options…yet here we are.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Only a little. But do u really believe for the sake of winning NFL owners would allow payrolls in the NFL to exceed the salary cap and thereby pay a luxury tax like some NBA owners do? Its unlikely most would b/c again, the NFL is the least progressive of all the 4 major leagues & They enjoy their profit margins. Its only when those profit margins are threatened do they react and do something.
In this situation, there’s no threat to that so its likely they will get away with it.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
While I agree that most owners like the setup, you don't think a Jerry Jones or Jim Ersay or Jimmy Halsam or Mark Davis wouldn't gladly pay for a stacked team to win a Super Bowl? There are plenty of cheap owners in the NBA and MLB, and yet they have teams that pay the luxury tax year after year.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
That MVP season was four years ago. In the following three seasons he has been good but not amazing. 11 missed games. Missed playoffs last two seasons. Averaging 202 passing yards a game. 29 INTs in 39 games. QBR below 60.
Is he worth two first round draft picks in a trade? Probably. Is he worth a $240 million fully guaranteed project? Maybe if I squint. Is he worth both? Absolutely and completely hell no.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
Meh, they integrate it to throw the occasional wrinkle into their attack whereas Ravens attack was built around it. Think of it - how many LJ's are there out there?
Generic Fan
He's just this guy, you know?
I don't believe its league/owner collusion to not give Jackson a fully guaranteed contract. Its just basic economics. If a team valued him at the level needed to give a fully guaranteed contract, he would have one, but that is a risky position and no team values Jackson that high to do so.
Cleveland acted on how they valued Watson and also on the situation they were in. They had pressure form fans to "do something!" and try to get a franchise QB. They felt that had to give Watson a ton so they would get him and not face fan backlash if Watson went somewhere else and became an All Pro. They took the risk and it didn't pan out.
It does not appear any other team is in the same boat Cleveland was in, and also values Lamar as a potential long term franchise QB solution.
People act to acquire a good/service based on the value they perceive in a point in time. Not everyone is at the same point in time and not everyone perceives the same value of a good/service.
mises.org
Cleveland acted on how they valued Watson and also on the situation they were in. They had pressure form fans to "do something!" and try to get a franchise QB. They felt that had to give Watson a ton so they would get him and not face fan backlash if Watson went somewhere else and became an All Pro. They took the risk and it didn't pan out.
It does not appear any other team is in the same boat Cleveland was in, and also values Lamar as a potential long term franchise QB solution.
People act to acquire a good/service based on the value they perceive in a point in time. Not everyone is at the same point in time and not everyone perceives the same value of a good/service.
Human Action | Mises Institute
The masterpiece first appeared in German in 1940 and then disappeared, only to reappear in English in 1949. It was a sensation, the largest and most scientific
Boris
All Pro
yeah...leaning more to this explanation
DW40 proved teams are willing to cross the rubicon of guaranteed contracts (according to this report, the browns were not the only ones willing to guarantee)
Report: 1 NFL Team Would’ve Matched Deshaun Watson’s Browns Contract If Given Chance
Deshaun Watson made sure he ended up on the Cleveland Browns. According to <a...
bleacherreport.com
You're making my point. Every team that needed a QB this offseason decided to not pursue Lamar Jackson. Sure, some teams would be in different situations. The Texans have a high pick in the draft. They have a good shot at a potential franchise QB at a rookie contract price. But no teams decided to pursue Jackson at that price point? Just last year, the Broncos traded 2 1sts, and 2 2nds for 34 year old Russell Wilson. And gave him a 5 year $242 million contract. Now, "only" $161 million was guaranteed. But Wilson was 8 years older than Jackson. Jackson would be 31 in 5 years. Still in his prime.
Jackson would get more money, more years than Wilson received last year. He would even get more guaranteed money. It's not the money. It's not the draft picks. It's the "fully" guaranteed contract. It's a phobia that's driving this. And when Joe Burrow doesn't get a fully guaranteed offer, the NFLPA will be able to take the league to court.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
3 seasons ago..when he offered them a home town discount according to whats out there…& they refused to pay him then b/c they wanted to see more. Since then tho the Ravens have been 1 of the most injured teams in the league…IOW, it aint just been him missing time. JK Dobbins, Ronnie Stanley and lots of key guys have missed significant time. They also lost a bunch of key guys to FA as well..guys like Matt Judon. Now Most times you can attribute that to a large qb contract squeezing out guys…not the case here. What’s been happening is They’ve lost guys and haven’t been able to replace them via the draft…something they were extremely effective at when Ozzie was in charge. Since Decosta became the guy tho, they’ve been terrible.
Still, Lamar has been able to at least get them to the playoffs..on his back alone. & most of those missed games happened this past year…when he had the most to lose so he elected to sit instead of jeopardize his money.
Also…who put the draft capital provision in place? The Ravens FO.
Furthermore, whose to say he’s wanting 240 mil It is reported that they are close to 80 million apart..someone in the media rounded it up to 100 that’s essentially 2 extra years on the contract…
The Ravens are talking out of both sides of their mouth.
Texansballer74
The Marine
The Bills, Eagles, Browns/Texans and several team’s employees his style of play.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Your undertones are confusing. I can't tell if you are arguing collusion or racism. The only fully guaranteed long term contract on record is for a black QB. And yet you're saying that the NFLPA won't sue the league over this until a white QB doesn't get a fully guaranteed long term contract. When no white QB's have one now. What is stopping them from suing now? There have never been guaranteed contracts. They could have sued at any time. They could have demanded during any CBA negotiation. Why wait until after Burrow doesn't get one?
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Just to clarify, he has missed 5 games each of the last two seasons. That's a Nico Collins level of availability.
This was Raven's owner Steve Bisciotti's reaction to the Watson contract last year.
Bisciotti was worried about how the Watson contract was affect his QB contract negotiations. And he knew that he wasn't going to fully guarantee a Jackson deal. So far, everything is working out fine for Bisciotti.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
What did he say that was wrong? Is it immoral or unethical to not want fully guaranteed contracts in a business where the average career is 3.3 years?
That's your reasoning, not mine. I never considered race or brought it up.
Moral? I don't know where that comes into it. Ethics would be ultimately judged in court, if it goes that far. But a group colluding to keep wages down would not go well for them. It cost MLB $280 million in the 90's. That doesn't seem like much today, but we don't really know what number the NFL might see in a court ruling.