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Texans doubters

watt99x99

Waterboy
GREAT POST! don't worry about the haters here. this site has bunch of Texans haters who wants Texans to lose and that's all they say. lmao
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Several of our posters let outside sources do their reasoning for them. Then, as a result, what they claim to be truth is really their indoctrination by those same outside sources, not their own critical thinking.

Mindset= If the internet says its a bad deal then it must be true.

:coffee:
pretty much....They'll never admit it, but its the truth. Fact is, the biggest whiners are the draft nerds. Reality is, the picks given up you weren't going to know what you had in those players until minimum 3-4 years down the road. Who the hell knows what this team looks like by then. & even if BoB is relieved of his duties after next year, the incoming HC is going to have a nice core to work with in DW4, Nuk, Tunsil, Watt & Merci.

But the doom & gloom patrol can't help it, our brains as humans are just far more responsive to negative stimuli. Easy to just go with evolution and respond to the negative with more negative. Far more difficult to look at the positive side of what could be.

I remember just last year when fans of the Indy Colts publically panned the last minute hiring of Frank Reich. "was he even on the list of interviewees for HC positions? Irsay panicked" they said. I also remember how the cowboys FO got criticized for drafting 2 offensive lineman in the 1st 2 consecutive years in Travis Frederick & Zack Martin well before they were supposedly thought to go. The draft nerds & fans said that the "value" wasn't there for the trade down. "We need a qb & Manziel's right there..he's a winner!" ....oops.

Fact is, the internet & fans are very often wrong...Bill Parcells after the 83' season is quoted as saying "If I'm going to get fired, I'm gonna get fired my own way". Tom Coughlin kinda took a similar stance but in the opposite direction the year he won his 1st SB. This is the mode I think BoB's in right now....& I can respect him for dropping his nuts on the table & doing what he felt he needed to do to get this team over the hump.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
The Clowney trade makes no sense at all, no matter how much spiked Kool aid you drink. Doing nothing would have been a better option. You can't defend it, it doesn't help this team win at all, but the prospect of JC coming back at any point in the season would help the team more than anything Mingo or Martin will do. And paying 7 million in capspace is just ludicrous, they spent a 2nd a few years back to get rid of 20m owed to Brock, but 7m and a probowler only gets you a 3rd???

I like the Tunsil trade though, a bit steep of a price, but LTs don't grow on trees. It's certainly a better prospect than this regime is likely to draft, so you might as well get a known commodity instead.
FO could be looking at this from a production standpoint. The collective of Martin and Merci can very easily make up Clowney's sack numbers imo..The TFL's they may fall a little short on, but maybe they see McKinney helping out there. In that regard, I think we take a slight step back in run defense, but we take a step forward rushing the passer.
 

Dutchrudder

King of the Potato People
FO could be looking at this from a production standpoint. The collective of Martin and Merci can very easily make up Clowney's sack numbers imo..The TFL's they may fall a little short on, but maybe they see McKinney helping out there. In that regard, I think we take a slight step back in run defense, but we take a step forward rushing the passer.
That only matters if you think JC was going to sit out the whole year. Almost no one does that, because you lose a year accrued on your status if you don't come back by week 10, and the effect on a future Franchise tag hasn't been litigated yet. I seriously doubt JC would have sat out the whole year, but that's something they should be able to gauge during negotiations. I would imagine he comes back week 10 during the Bye, and plays the rest of the season at a prorated rate of 7 million for 7 games.

Another point that hasn't been covered well in the reports of this trade is that Barkevious Mingo will cost the Texans 4.2 million to have on the roster this year, so that plus the 7 million paid to get JC to Seattle = 11.2 million in cap space used to make this transaction happen. That's an enormous amount of cap space to waste on this deal, 11 million spent in free agency should net you a better player than Mingo and Martin combined. At least Martin is on a cheap rookie deal, so his salary is a wash.

It just makes no damn sense at all, unless BOB or the Texans Front Office did something to completely sabotage any chance of salvaging the relationship with JC, there's no reason to make this trade. And even if that's the case, they would have been better off letting him sit out and try to trade him next year than taking this deal with Seattle.
 

HuttoKarl

Veteran
"Franchise LT" would likely involve him deciding to re-sign with Houston...there's no guarantee he would or that a moron like O'Brien would give an offer worth signing in the first place.

Right now we just have to hope that everyone stays healthy and those young O-Line picks learn really fast.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
That only matters if you think JC was going to sit out the whole year. Almost no one does that, because you lose a year accrued on your status if you don't come back by week 10, and the effect on a future Franchise tag hasn't been litigated yet. I seriously doubt JC would have sat out the whole year, but that's something they should be able to gauge during negotiations. I would imagine he comes back week 10 during the Bye, and plays the rest of the season at a prorated rate of 7 million for 7 games.

Another point that hasn't been covered well in the reports of this trade is that Barkevious Mingo will cost the Texans 4.2 million to have on the roster this year, so that plus the 7 million paid to get JC to Seattle = 11.2 million in cap space used to make this transaction happen. That's an enormous amount of cap space to waste on this deal, 11 million spent in free agency should net you a better player than Mingo and Martin combined. At least Martin is on a cheap rookie deal, so his salary is a wash.

It just makes no damn sense at all, unless BOB or the Texans Front Office did something to completely sabotage any chance of salvaging the relationship with JC, there's no reason to make this trade. And even if that's the case, they would have been better off letting him sit out and try to trade him next year than taking this deal with Seattle.
Obrien said it was a very well thought out plan
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
That only matters if you think JC was going to sit out the whole year. Almost no one does that, because you lose a year accrued on your status if you don't come back by week 10, and the effect on a future Franchise tag hasn't been litigated yet. I seriously doubt JC would have sat out the whole year, but that's something they should be able to gauge during negotiations. I would imagine he comes back week 10 during the Bye, and plays the rest of the season at a prorated rate of 7 million for 7 games.
We will never know what Clowney would've done....Only what he says he would've done & that's the beauty in how JD played the situation...He stayed quiet......... b/c he could. BoB didn't neccessarily have that luxury with the media asking him about JD every damn day.

However the fact is if you look at it from just a production standpoint, Merci himself can really replace JD's production b/c he's actually done it. 2015 12 sacks 16 TFLs...& that was in 11 games. All that being said, The caveat for him is he has to stay reasonably healthy....but that same caveat applied to JD as well though. Difference is 1 guy was angling for 150 mil, the other guy isn't. All in all, its not necessarily a bad idea to get another up & coming speed rusher like Martin as insurance for Merci & spread JD's production over 2-3 guys if we are to also include Scarlett. Martin & Scarlett's name just don't have the cache that Clowney's does.

No they didn't really have to do the deal, & they should've gotten more back for him, but i'm not sweating it too much though. We could've never afforded to keep Clowney here, & my philosophy on draft picks is you can't really assess their value until 2-4 years after they've been used anyway. Everyone clings to the idea that that next draft pick could be a pro bowler HOFer....Well there's a reason the avg NFL career is 3 years...& that's b/c most of those draft picks wind up not being anything close to that.
 

Dejaview

Rookie
That only matters if you think JC was going to sit out the whole year. Almost no one does that, because you lose a year accrued on your status if you don't come back by week 10, and the effect on a future Franchise tag hasn't been litigated yet. I seriously doubt JC would have sat out the whole year, but that's something they should be able to gauge during negotiations. I would imagine he comes back week 10 during the Bye, and plays the rest of the season at a prorated rate of 7 million for 7 games.

Another point that hasn't been covered well in the reports of this trade is that Barkevious Mingo will cost the Texans 4.2 million to have on the roster this year, so that plus the 7 million paid to get JC to Seattle = 11.2 million in cap space used to make this transaction happen. That's an enormous amount of cap space to waste on this deal, 11 million spent in free agency should net you a better player than Mingo and Martin combined. At least Martin is on a cheap rookie deal, so his salary is a wash.

It just makes no damn sense at all, unless BOB or the Texans Front Office did something to completely sabotage any chance of salvaging the relationship with JC, there's no reason to make this trade. And even if that's the case, they would have been better off letting him sit out and try to trade him next year than taking this deal with Seattle.
Another point that hasn’t been covered in this post is the 130-140$$ million cap space eating contract JD wanted.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Just like his thought out plan of starting Savage over Watson.
What's funny about this is he truly believes it's some sort of genius master plan. No self awareness. The delusions of grandeur are unreal.

And by his actions it seems he values hard working versatile guys who are humble more than anything else, more than capspace or high picks.
 

Dejaview

Rookie
What's funny about this is he truly believes it's some sort of genius master plan. No self awareness. The delusions of grandeur are unreal.

And by his actions it seems he values hard working versatile guys who are humble more than anything else, more than capspace or high picks.
You just complimented him By his actions. But your cap space comment is bs. Clowney was 100% cap space. And high picks? Price to pay to get a young roster set and the cap space to get others signed. Btw, 2020 isn’t draft pick limited. We spent next years #1 on Tunsil and have numerous other picks including the three we just picked up...and Martin Mingo and Stills. 2021 is like our payment year for getting rid of Oz and drafting DW. What about about those picks and the result of trading those picks. Instead of having a depleted roster after drafting DW we got a great core after these pick trades.
 

santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
You just complimented him By his actions. But your cap space comment is bs. Clowney was 100% cap space. And high picks? Price to pay to get a young roster set and the cap space to get others signed. Btw, 2020 isn’t draft pick limited. We spent next years #1 on Tunsil and have numerous other picks including the three we just picked up...and Martin Mingo. 2021 is like our payment year for getting rid of Oz and drafting DW. What about about those picks and the result of trading those picks. Instead of having a depleted roster after drafting DW we got a great core after these pick trades.
What capspace? He was going to play under the franchise tag. OB was foolish enough to release him, err I mean "trade" him to Seattle.
 

Dejaview

Rookie
What capspace? He was going to play under the franchise tag. OB was foolish enough to release him, err I mean "trade" him to Seattle.
Tag only followed failed contract demands. He was history then for an extension. No way Texans were going to mortgage future on a six year Clowney deal....neither it seems will the Seahawks.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
What capspace? He was going to play under the franchise tag. OB was foolish enough to release him, err I mean "trade" him to Seattle.
So Clowney says...He also says or thinks he's worth Donald/Mack money...You believe that too?

Bottom line is Clowney can say what he would've done &...ok noone can disprove that but i don't necessarily believe him. He himself said that Brown advised him through all this & if we are to run with that, it's at least probable he was gonna take the same course that Brown did...i.e. sit out & be a distraction for 10 weeks of the season...then show up, be a distraction for the remaining 7 weeks. Then if we didn't trade him before the season was up, he'd be a distraction in the 2020 offseason & we do this **** all over again.

Something you negative nancies aren't factoring in though is what could've happened to his value in that 7 week or franchise tag year. He already has a history of mailing it (see his last year at USC)...So say he sits out 10 weeks, comes back & has **** production. What do you think happens to his value then?

What if he tears an ACL or something worse in that 7 game span? What do you think happens to his value then?
 

dream_team

All Pro
So Clowney says...He also says or thinks he's worth Donald/Mack money...You believe that too?

Bottom line is Clowney can say what he would've done &...ok noone can disprove that but i don't necessarily believe him. He himself said that Brown advised him through all this & if we are to run with that, it's at least probable he was gonna take the same course that Brown did...i.e. sit out & be a distraction for 10 weeks of the season...then show up, be a distraction for the remaining 7 weeks. Then if we didn't trade him before the season was up, he'd be a distraction in the 2020 offseason & we do this **** all over again.

Something you negative nancies aren't factoring in though is what could've happened to his value in that 7 week or franchise tag year. He already has a history of mailing it (see his last year at USC)...So say he sits out 10 weeks, comes back & has **** production. What do you think happens to his value then?

What if he tears an ACL or something worse in that 7 game span? What do you think happens to his value then?
We actually got a decent deal from the Duane Brown trade.

I don't consider that 3rd rounder from Seattle as part of the deal. We could have just kept JD, let him walk in FA next offseason, and we would have gotten a 3rd round compensatory pick. So I basically look at the deal as Clowney for Martin & Mingo. No matter how you look at it, that's a bad deal. We're not even saving much money because we also gave 7mil to the Seahawks.

A lot of people aren't factoring in "...what could've happened to his value in that 7 week or franchise tag year.", because honestly, we didn't get much value out of him now.
 

mws

Waterboy
We actually got a decent deal from the Duane Brown trade.

I don't consider that 3rd rounder from Seattle as part of the deal. We could have just kept JD, let him walk in FA next offseason, and we would have gotten a 3rd round compensatory pick. So I basically look at the deal as Clowney for Martin & Mingo. No matter how you look at it, that's a bad deal. We're not even saving much money because we also gave 7mil to the Seahawks.

A lot of people aren't factoring in "...what could've happened to his value in that 7 week or franchise tag year.", because honestly, we didn't get much value out of him now.
Or kept him until the October 29th trade deadline. Surely his value would have risen by then. Especially with teams with a chance if they only had that edge rusher.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
We actually got a decent deal from the Duane Brown trade.

I don't consider that 3rd rounder from Seattle as part of the deal. We could have just kept JD, let him walk in FA next offseason, and we would have gotten a 3rd round compensatory pick. So I basically look at the deal as Clowney for Martin & Mingo. No matter how you look at it, that's a bad deal. We're not even saving much money because we also gave 7mil to the Seahawks.

A lot of people aren't factoring in "...what could've happened to his value in that 7 week or franchise tag year.", because honestly, we didn't get much value out of him now.
Some say we got jobbed on the Duane Brown trade too though...and that was with a GM...as for the other part of your post, you’re absolutely right...but let’s not act like the narrative with some still wouldn't be “we should’ve traded him before the July 15th deadline” if he had of gotten hurt at any point next year...or he shows up and dogs it just to get out of Houston.
 

dream_team

All Pro
Some say we got jobbed on the Duane Brown trade too though...and that was with a GM...as for the other part of your post, you’re absolutely right...but let’s not act like the narrative with some still wouldn't be “we should’ve traded him before the July 15th deadline” if he had of gotten hurt at any point next year...or he shows up and dogs it just to get out of Houston.
Who said we got jobbed on the DB trade? I thought it was a great trade considering the circumstances. There isn't a doubt in my mind we would have gotten a much better trade if Rick or Gaine was still here, but of course, that's pure speculation.

But yes, there's always the hindsight people that will complain no matter what.

Without using hindsight, and just using what I know today, I can easily say this was a horrible trade. Not even close. I would have preferred JD is still a Texan today, even knowing I have a risk of him getting injured, not playing hard, or even not reporting to the team at all. Losing out on Martin & Mingo is easily worth taking that risk.
 

Texan Asylum

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
pretty much....They'll never admit it, but its the truth. Fact is, the biggest whiners are the draft nerds. Reality is, the picks given up you weren't going to know what you had in those players until minimum 3-4 years down the road. Who the hell knows what this team looks like by then. & even if BoB is relieved of his duties after next year, the incoming HC is going to have a nice core to work with in DW4, Nuk, Tunsil, Watt & Merci.

But the doom & gloom patrol can't help it, our brains as humans are just far more responsive to negative stimuli. Easy to just go with evolution and respond to the negative with more negative. Far more difficult to look at the positive side of what could be.

I remember just last year when fans of the Indy Colts publically panned the last minute hiring of Frank Reich. "was he even on the list of interviewees for HC positions? Irsay panicked" they said. I also remember how the cowboys FO got criticized for drafting 2 offensive lineman in the 1st 2 consecutive years in Travis Frederick & Zack Martin well before they were supposedly thought to go. The draft nerds & fans said that the "value" wasn't there for the trade down. "We need a qb & Manziel's right there..he's a winner!" ....oops.

Fact is, the internet & fans are very often wrong...Bill Parcells after the 83' season is quoted as saying "If I'm going to get fired, I'm gonna get fired my own way". Tom Coughlin kinda took a similar stance but in the opposite direction the year he won his 1st SB. This is the mode I think BoB's in right now....& I can respect him for dropping his nuts on the table & doing what he felt he needed to do to get this team over the hump.
If I remember correctly, there were a lot of those 'draft nerds' who booed JJ being drafted. I know it's different leadership now, but time told how smart a move that one was for the Texans. Time will tell on these moves as well.
 

banned1976

American
One of the reasons I love the draft and the high round picks is because at least there’s hope for the future in the event of a dreadful season.

But if I still had faith in O’Brien I wouldn’t give two shits about the draft picks lost. I don’t though, and Tunsil is not a line all by himself.

This past weekend isn’t my only issue with the team. The Texans did a lot of things wrong over the last 4 months. They’ve made a comedy of errors.

I’m hoping for the best and that’s the best I can muster right now.
 

cuppacoffee

Resident Grouch
Obrien said it was a very well thought out plan.
'

But the internet says different so Obrien must be lying?

I wanted the Texans to force Cloneys hand and let him miss checks, come in late and then cut him loose next year.

They didn't but I am not so arrogant as to say that was the right / only way to handle it. Just my way.

Saying the two players we got from Seattle were on the bubble is only speculation and not fact.

It was reported on the same internet that one was a probable s.t replacement for Badamosi and that Carroll was high on the other as a third down rush specialist.

I am all for the Tunsil acquisition no matter what the cost. We don't protect Watson nothing else matters.

The only job / reputation on the line is Obriens. Fans need to chill out, move on.

The 'smartest man in the room' is not on this message board.

:coffee:
 
You can call me a negative nancy but I am just upset that the Texans didn't get better value for a good player in Clowney.

I honestly did not care whether they re-signed him or not. If they had re-signed him, I had hope it'd to be front loaded to take advantage of while we knew he was healthy.

But once the decision as an organization was made on whether to try to keep him long term or not, I would've liked to see them execute the plan better. It was foolish to not make this decision before the franchise tag extension deadline to get maximum value if a trade was deemed to be the best option.

Likewise, it was foolish to not extract maximum value post deadline because they could have just re-tagged him next offseason and then moved on. Worst case you get a pro bowler caliber player for 7 weeks. Best case he plays on the tag, balls out and the Texans get more trade value.

All I wanted was the Texans to get maximum value. I didn't care how, just get the most value possible.
 

cuppacoffee

Resident Grouch
You can call me a negative nancy but I am just upset that the Texans didn't get better value for a good player in Clowney.

I honestly did not care whether they re-signed him or not. If they had re-signed him, I had hope it'd to be front loaded to take advantage of while we knew he was healthy.

But once the decision as an organization was made on whether to try to keep him long term or not, I would've liked to see them execute the plan better. It was foolish to not make this decision before the franchise tag extension deadline to get maximum value if a trade was deemed to be the best option.

Likewise, it was foolish to not extract maximum value post deadline because they could have just re-tagged him next offseason and then moved on. Worst case you get a pro bowler caliber player for 7 weeks. Best case he plays on the tag, balls out and the Texans get more trade value.

All I wanted was the Texans to get maximum value. I didn't care how, just get the most value possible.

They did. No better offers were made to my knowledge. Texan fans wanted better value but the team traded him at a discount.

Pretty obvious the Texans wanted him gone. Clowney said as much in his presser in Seattle.

:coffee: >moving on from this topic.
 

txtx

Waterboy
Draft errors, trade errors, GM errors and a rebuilt secondary aside, O'Brien's biggest opponent is his opponents...

Avg. career passer rating of Texans' 2018 opponent QBs - 83.3
Avg. career passer rating of Texans' 2019 projected opponent QBs - 90.5

I'm afraid that means O'Brien will be exposed in the middle of the season this year, go 6-10 record, and be fired.

[The difference is worse (86.0 to 97.6) if you compare the 2018 avg. passer rating of last year's opponents vs the 2018 avg. passer rating of this season's projected opponents.]
 
Last edited:

Seegara

Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
pretty much....They'll never admit it, but its the truth. Fact is, the biggest whiners are the draft nerds. Reality is, the picks given up you weren't going to know what you had in those players until minimum 3-4 years down the road. Who the hell knows what this team looks like by then. & even if BoB is relieved of his duties after next year, the incoming HC is going to have a nice core to work with in DW4, Nuk, Tunsil, Watt & Merci.

But the doom & gloom patrol can't help it, our brains as humans are just far more responsive to negative stimuli. Easy to just go with evolution and respond to the negative with more negative. Far more difficult to look at the positive side of what could be.

I remember just last year when fans of the Indy Colts publically panned the last minute hiring of Frank Reich. "was he even on the list of interviewees for HC positions? Irsay panicked" they said. I also remember how the cowboys FO got criticized for drafting 2 offensive lineman in the 1st 2 consecutive years in Travis Frederick & Zack Martin well before they were supposedly thought to go. The draft nerds & fans said that the "value" wasn't there for the trade down. "We need a qb & Manziel's right there..he's a winner!" ....oops.

Fact is, the internet & fans are very often wrong...Bill Parcells after the 83' season is quoted as saying "If I'm going to get fired, I'm gonna get fired my own way". Tom Coughlin kinda took a similar stance but in the opposite direction the year he won his 1st SB. This is the mode I think BoB's in right now....& I can respect him for dropping his nuts on the table & doing what he felt he needed to do to get this team over the hump.
Yet I think the fans on this forum are very knowledgeable about football. At least they were before the refugees from the Bullpen came over.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Several of our posters let outside sources do their reasoning for them. Then, as a result, what they claim to be truth is really their indoctrination by those same outside sources, not their own critical thinking.

Mindset= If the internet says its a bad deal then it must be true.

:coffee:
so what say YOU?
Good deal? bad deal?
However these moves turn out, it's totally and completely O'Brien's golden egg or steaming turd.

I wish he'd pulled the trigger sooner....

Edit:
As an aside, IF, this plan has been in the works for a while, I'm impressed at the 'radio silence' from Kirby. None of the NFLN nor ESPN nor Chron.com reporters saw it coming. Nothing leaked out. Impressive.
 
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banned1976

American
Draft errors, trade errors, GM errors and a rebuilt secondary aside, O'Brien's biggest opponent is his opponents...

Avg. career passer rating of Texans' 2018 opponent QBs - 83.3
Avg. career passer rating of Texans' 2019 projected opponent QBs - 90.5

I'm afraid that means O'Brien will be exposed in the middle of the season this year, go 6-10 record, and be fired.

[The difference is worse (86.0 to 97.6) if you compare the 2018 avg. passer rating of last year's opponents vs the 2018 avg. passer rating of this season's projected opponents.]
I think it’ll take a couple of really bad consecutive seasons for O’Brien to be fired. When/if that happens, it’s going to be difficult to get a competent GM in here. If the Texans bomb out this year and the next, O’Brien will be fired, the Texans won’t have a 1st or 2nd round pick and who knows what Watson’s mindset will be at that time.

To the other point in your thread; I wonder at what point in the season a thread will be created surrounding the lack of a pass rush? I’m afraid it’s going to happen pretty fast.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
What's funny about this is he truly believes it's some sort of genius master plan. No self awareness. The delusions of grandeur are unreal.

And by his actions it seems he values hard working versatile guys who are humble more than anything else, more than capspace or high picks.
That's not a totally bad thing for a head coach who fancies himself a motivator.
That'd be cool if it was the 70s or the 80s.

My mistake was thinking O'Brien was an offensive innovator. He's not.


 

Dutchrudder

King of the Potato People
Another point that hasn’t been covered in this post is the 130-140$$ million cap space eating contract JD wanted.
Never said he would cost that much, just the 16m franchise tag for one year, which would be 1m less per game he sits out. The Texans were sitting on about 40m in cap space prior to the JD trade, they absolutely could afford it, no matter when he comes back.
 

TheMatrix31

Hall of Fame
I think it’ll take a couple of really bad consecutive seasons for O’Brien to be fired. When/if that happens, it’s going to be difficult to get a competent GM in here. If the Texans bomb out this year and the next, O’Brien will be fired, the Texans won’t have a 1st or 2nd round pick and who knows what Watson’s mindset will be at that time.

To the other point in your thread; I wonder at what point in the season a thread will be created surrounding the lack of a pass rush? I’m afraid it’s going to happen pretty fast.
So six years of worthlessness won't be enough?

Might give up soon if this season is the same **** and the guy gets more time.
 

Dutchrudder

King of the Potato People
Tag only followed failed contract demands. He was history then for an extension. No way Texans were going to mortgage future on a six year Clowney deal....neither it seems will the Seahawks.
The Seahawks aren't allowed to extend him this year. Players that get franchise tagged cannot sign an extension with any team other than the one that tagged them for that year. It's supposed to help prevent holdouts and such, but that ain't happening...

The Seahawks are paying 9m to test him for one year to see how he works out. Oh, and they offloaded 4.2m in Mingo's contract onto the Texas, so that saves them some more money, as it was reported he was likely to be cut. They are paying next to nothing to give a 1 year prove-it deal to a probowl player. It's an excellent deal for Seattle.
 

mws

Waterboy
The Seahawks aren't allowed to extend him this year. Players that get franchise tagged cannot sign an extension with any team other than the one that tagged them for that year. It's supposed to help prevent holdouts and such, but that ain't happening...

The Seahawks are paying 9m to test him for one year to see how he works out. Oh, and they offloaded 4.2m in Mingo's contract onto the Texas, so that saves them some more money, as it was reported he was likely to be cut. They are paying next to nothing to give a 1 year prove-it deal to a probowl player. It's an excellent deal for Seattle.
The Seahawks agreed not to franchise tag him next year. That means Clowny is going to hit the free agent market. So it will cost them a lot to extend him.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
The Seahawks agreed not to franchise tag him next year. That means Clowny is going to hit the free agent market. So it will cost them a lot to extend him.
Yep. Clowney has set it up so that its more likely he hits FA next year more than anything. He has effectively banked on himself & for his sake i hope it works out. If he fails to live up to what his measureables say he should do, he's not seeing Donald/Mack money. If he gets injured, he's likely not seeing Frank Clark money.
 

cuppacoffee

Resident Grouch
so what say YOU?
Good deal? bad deal?
However these moves turn out, it's totally and completely O'Brien's golden egg or steaming turd.

I wish he'd pulled the trigger sooner....

Edit:
As an aside, IF, this plan has been in the works for a while, I'm impressed at the 'radio silence' from Kirby. None of the NFLN nor ESPN nor Chron.com reporters saw it coming. Nothing leaked out. Impressive.

Clowney? Bad deal, but, apparently the best that was offered.

I suppose paying part of his salary was more attractive to the team than paying his full salary?

I gave my opinion and preference in the Clowney thread.

Have you wondered, if Clowney was all that coveted, why more teams didn't make offers?

If there were other offers obviously they were not as good as the one we made.

I'm all in on the Tunsil deal.

Lets go play the games and let the chips fall where the may.

:coffee:
 

Dutchrudder

King of the Potato People
Clowney? Bad deal, but, apparently the best that was offered.

I suppose paying part of his salary was more attractive to the team than paying his full salary?

I gave my opinion and preference in the Clowney thread.

Have you wondered, if Clowney was all that coveted, why more teams didn't make offers?

If there were other offers obviously they were not as good as the one we made.

I'm all in on the Tunsil deal.

Lets go play the games and let the chips fall where the may.

:coffee:
Supposedly Miami was willing to take one less 1st round pick from us in the Tunsil deal if it included Clowney, but since Clowney never signed his tender, he was able to decline to go there or anywhere else. He held all the cards in this situation, because the Texans were dead set on trading him instead of waiting it out for a better deal. The player was dictating the market, and he sought out the Seattle deal for the team. When a player does that, like what Melvin Gordon is doing now to the Chargers, it severely limits the team's options. The other GM knows what's going on, probably talked to the player or a proxy, and can bend you over a barrel. In this case, the Texans chose the barrel instead of holding out.

I personally, would not have let a player walk all over me like this, as the public optics of it are terrible, and the return is nearly zero. Even if he didn't come back this year, the 11.2m in cap savings could have been rolled over into 2020 and used to cover Tunsil's salary next year. It just makes no sense why they gave in, it looks weak, stupid and desperate.
 

santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
Supposedly Miami was willing to take one less 1st round pick from us in the Tunsil deal if it included Clowney, but since Clowney never signed his tender, he was able to decline to go there or anywhere else. He held all the cards in this situation, because the Texans were dead set on trading him instead of waiting it out for a better deal. The player was dictating the market, and he sought out the Seattle deal for the team. When a player does that, like what Melvin Gordon is doing now to the Chargers, it severely limits the team's options. The other GM knows what's going on, probably talked to the player or a proxy, and can bend you over a barrel. In this case, the Texans chose the barrel instead of holding out.

I personally, would not have let a player walk all over me like this, as the public optics of it are terrible, and the return is nearly zero. Even if he didn't come back this year, the 11.2m in cap savings could have been rolled over into 2020 and used to cover Tunsil's salary next year. It just makes no sense why they gave in, it looks weak, stupid and desperate.
I blame our GM.
 

cuppacoffee

Resident Grouch
Supposedly Miami was willing to take one less 1st round pick from us in the Tunsil deal if it included Clowney, but since Clowney never signed his tender, he was able to decline to go there or anywhere else. He held all the cards in this situation, because the Texans were dead set on trading him instead of waiting it out for a better deal. The player was dictating the market, and he sought out the Seattle deal for the team. When a player does that, like what Melvin Gordon is doing now to the Chargers, it severely limits the team's options. The other GM knows what's going on, probably talked to the player or a proxy, and can bend you over a barrel. In this case, the Texans chose the barrel instead of holding out.

I personally, would not have let a player walk all over me like this, as the public optics of it are terrible, and the return is nearly zero. Even if he didn't come back this year, the 11.2m in cap savings could have been rolled over into 2020 and used to cover Tunsil's salary next year. It just makes no sense why they gave in, it looks weak, stupid and desperate.

I saw this discussed on the Fins message board but didn't know that an offer was actually in place.

In either case Clowney could have shot it down.

:coffee:
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Supposedly Miami was willing to take one less 1st round pick from us in the Tunsil deal if it included Clowney, but since Clowney never signed his tender, he was able to decline to go there or anywhere else. He held all the cards in this situation, because the Texans were dead set on trading him instead of waiting it out for a better deal. The player was dictating the market, and he sought out the Seattle deal for the team. When a player does that, like what Melvin Gordon is doing now to the Chargers, it severely limits the team's options. The other GM knows what's going on, probably talked to the player or a proxy, and can bend you over a barrel. In this case, the Texans chose the barrel instead of holding out.

I personally, would not have let a player walk all over me like this, as the public optics of it are terrible, and the return is nearly zero. Even if he didn't come back this year, the 11.2m in cap savings could have been rolled over into 2020 and used to cover Tunsil's salary next year. It just makes no sense why they gave in, it looks weak, stupid and desperate.
Jesus christ you guys are literally like mouthpieces for sports radio around here.

Lol, lets just play this leverage thing out to the end shall we..............

the Texans...... if they were real a-holes and intent on sticking it to Clowney, could've franchised the hell out of him for 2 years, let him leave after that for a 3rd compensatory pick, kept all their future picks in the process.... and would've saved at minimum 10+ million in the process.......That is, if they were real a-holes...but under no circumstances do they lose with JD holding his "leverage". Even if he comes back & "lays like a rug" for 2 years on the tag, Clowney's doing more damage to himself with other teams around the league than he is to the Texans FO.

Clowney's "leverage" was not signing the tender until he was traded to a place he wanted to go.......which if he played that out all the way to the end under the Texans FO a-hole scenario would've either cost him upwards of 20+ million for 2 years ............that he wasn't going to recoup. even if he comes back week 10, he's likely not putting up substantial numbers for anyone to pay a significant amount of anything for him....he's also 2 years older & closer to that knee eventually blowing out on him. Where is the "leverage" in that stance lol?

Fact is, neither of these scenarios plays well for either party. The Texans capitulated & lost, but lets not act like JD's "leverage" was a significant factor in that...His greatest leverage if you call it that was that the FO didn't care too much about losing him.....but that's more apathy than anything lol.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Jesus christ you guys are literally like mouthpieces for sports radio around here.

Lol, lets just play this leverage thing out to the end shall we..............

the Texans...... if they were real a-holes and intent on sticking it to Clowney, could've franchised the hell out of him for 2 years, let him leave after that for a 3rd compensatory pick, kept all their future picks in the process.... and would've saved at minimum 10+ million in the process.......That is, if they were real a-holes...but under no circumstances do they lose with JD holding his "leverage". Even if he comes back & "lays like a rug" for 2 years on the tag, Clowney's doing more damage to himself with other teams around the league than he is to the Texans FO.

Clowney's "leverage" was not signing the tender until he was traded to a place he wanted to go.......which if he played that out all the way to the end under the Texans FO a-hole scenario would've either cost him upwards of 20+ million for 2 years ............that he wasn't going to recoup. even if he comes back week 10, he's likely not putting up substantial numbers for anyone to pay a significant amount of anything for him....he's also 2 years older & closer to that knee eventually blowing out on him. Where is the "leverage" in that stance lol?

Fact is, neither of these scenarios plays well for either party. The Texans capitulated & lost, but lets not act like JD's "leverage" was a significant factor in that...His greatest leverage if you call it that was that the FO didn't care too much about losing him.....but that's more apathy than anything lol.
I agree. Clowneys only leverage was OBrien is an idiot
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Supposedly Miami was willing to take one less 1st round pick from us in the Tunsil deal if it included Clowney, but since Clowney never signed his tender, he was able to decline to go there or anywhere else. He held all the cards in this situation, because the Texans were dead set on trading him instead of waiting it out for a better deal. The player was dictating the market, and he sought out the Seattle deal for the team. When a player does that, like what Melvin Gordon is doing now to the Chargers, it severely limits the team's options. The other GM knows what's going on, probably talked to the player or a proxy, and can bend you over a barrel. In this case, the Texans chose the barrel instead of holding out.

I personally, would not have let a player walk all over me like this, as the public optics of it are terrible, and the return is nearly zero. Even if he didn't come back this year, the 11.2m in cap savings could have been rolled over into 2020 and used to cover Tunsil's salary next year. It just makes no sense why they gave in, it looks weak, stupid and desperate.
Spot on
 


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