& DeQwell Jackson
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Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League
- Thread starter CloakNNNdagger
- Start date
& DeQwell Jackson
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I would like to see linval joseph or red bryant along with Jason Worilds. I would also like to se some 1 yr prove it deals to some cb like tracy porter and jenkins.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
And while we are at it we can trade for Sherman and Revis.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Well. D'Qwell Jackson was released by the Browns. So it's not out of the realm of possibility of us getting him. Granted, he's probably going to the Broncos but there's still a chance.
PHILLYTEXANFAN
Saddle Up Partner
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
JJo has had a couple of years of multiple injuries and surgeries, and decreased performance. I like JJo, and he, surprising to me, scored a respectable 6.5+ at ProFootballFocus last year.........before his season ending injury. Not much was revealed about the injury. I was able to determine that he had sustained a torn ligament in a toe and underwent surgical repair. Important in this, the only toe that you would typically consider operating on would be a Turf Toe...........a grade III Turf Toe which reflects very severe damage to the toe. Despite the very debilitating nature of the injury ,very few turf toes ever will go on to surgery.
Rehab from this surgery does not allow return to play short of 4 months. But players will almost universally complain of restricting pain for 1 year. And with time, the joint almost inevitably becomes stiff and arthritic.
Keeping all of this in mind, OB will not be able to evaluate JJo and expect any truly useful information as to how his performance will have been affected by his recent surgery for a long time to come.........certainly not before the draft and doubtfully by the June 1 cut date.
Rehab from this surgery does not allow return to play short of 4 months. But players will almost universally complain of restricting pain for 1 year. And with time, the joint almost inevitably becomes stiff and arthritic.
Keeping all of this in mind, OB will not be able to evaluate JJo and expect any truly useful information as to how his performance will have been affected by his recent surgery for a long time to come.........certainly not before the draft and doubtfully by the June 1 cut date.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Just for clarity, the important part about June 1st is cuts made after that date.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Unless you may want more FA money to play with this year rather than next year.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
No, more money this year comes from cutting them after June 1st, not before (other than designating them to be treated as post June 1st cuts).
Cut before June 1st - all on 2014.
Cut after June 1st (or so designated) - split between 2014 & 15.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Gotcha. Had it bass ackwards. But, either way, it seems that OB would rather know by June what he has in JJo?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
It is counterintuitive. I agree OB would rather know as ASAP. JJo is a rather key piece. The need and availability of a replacement could be the difference in whether Schaub is taken as a June 1st cut.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
I still feel you do not nominate Schaub as June 1 cut. Need that money in the free agency period.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Depends which free agency period you are talking about. Making Schaub a June 1st cut means more money for free agency this year and less next year.
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.
How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.
How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I'm not much of a cap guy either, but I fail to see what we gain by cutting Joseph. Despite the injury issues, he's still the best CB on a team that needs CB's.
Except he was below avg when he was able to play and that $$$$ could be tetter spent elsewhere. Say if cutting JoJo meant you could sign Orakpo and Rashean Mathis for close to the vet min (who was as good as JoJo last yr) you would be better off. IMHO
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Joseph graded out as a top-25 CB on PFF. He did struggle with injuries, but I don't see how cutting him and signing a 34-year old as his replacement is the solution. I also don't see why Mathis would settle for a vet minimum deal after a good year at the tail end of his career. He's going where the money's at.
Don't know about PFF rankings but JoJO wasn't in my top 25 CB rankings. I thought Mathis played just as well as JoJo last yr.
I'm really just trying to find the cap $$$$ to bring Orakpo home. He/Watt/Clowney would bring to the defense what it has been missing.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
JoJo needs more pass rush from the LB's, he and Kareem got hung out to dry a lot last year.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
Initial free agency period. If there is a player they Texans really want; would be best to have the money now to sign him as opposed to waiting until June 1 to sign some players.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
Cut JoJo today save $3.75m towards the cap, take on $7.5m in dead money.
Cut JoJo today with June 1 designation save (I think) $7.5m towards the cap, take on $3.75m dead money in 2014 and $3.75m dead money in 2015.
Not much difference just depends how you want to take on the dead money. But honestly I don't see him going anywhere for 2014. Maybe a pay cut but I doubt it. I just hope they don't extend him to lower the cap hit now. Just let him play out his contract, or at least play out 2014 then release next offseason.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Dead money.
Schaub (2014 cap hit - $14.125, 2015 - $17): straight cut $10.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.5 mil 2014 and $7 mil 2015
JJo (2014 cap hit - $11.25, 2015 - $12.25): straight cut $7.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.75 mil 2014 and $3.75 mil 2015
But remember, cutting JJo to get Orakpo doesn't get you another starting CB so you need money for that as well.
And your penchant for hyperbole just ran amuck.
Edit - sorry, thought you were talking McCain.
No. If he is a June 1st cut, it would make $7.375 cap space in 2014.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Mathis played very well last year. It was nice to see because he was a very good player when he was younger. However, this is also the same guy who will be 34 this year and has been on IR in 3 of the past 6 seasons.
I'd love to bring Orakpo home as well, but cutting your best cover guy to do it is not the way IMO. CB is one of our weakest positions on defense.
Texian
Hall of Fame
According to the CBA, IIRC, you can DESIGNATE (2) players as June 1 cuts. Short term GAIN = long term PAIN
Troy Chapman
Rookie
I was editing as you posted.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Cool. I do that all the time - post, look at it again, see a mistake and go back to fix it.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
Rogo. Just glad they finally set the number. Now I have my spreadsheet updated properly.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
D'Quell Jackson is out there but we do not appear to be making any move. There will be upgrades to McCain available as there are for Newton. Also possibly for NT.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.
If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.
If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.
Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).
LINK
So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.
So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.
If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.
If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.
Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).
LINK
So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.
So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I suppose if a team was very close to the cap they could ride the line until June 2nd, and then wait for the space to be freed up. Then spend that money on their draft pick's contracts. That might be one way to finagle a way to utilize the space in free agency, but it might mean your new guys miss a few days of a OTAs. I can't really think of any good examples of guys who were designated June 1st cuts though.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Troy Chapman
Rookie
IF the dead money hit is big, some teams like to spread it out over two years....but carrying it all until June 1 is the penalty for doing so. So teams need to relief spread over two years. Some may look at 2015 and see some contracts expiring, so they spread it over to get more gain this year as opposed to 2015.
Thanks for the research. The June 1 deal can be confusing for some. Just look at the numbers to understand how it works.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
This piece leads you through step by step the implications of the June 1st designation to both the player and the team. It looks like it can get tricky depending on the structure of the player's contract.
Salary Re-Capping: The Post-June 1 Designation And Quintin Mikell
Salary Re-Capping: The Post-June 1 Designation And Quintin Mikell
I think Schaub as a June 1st cut is the way to go. $3.625M is nothing, especially considering the league just gave us $10M. We won't realize the savings until June 2nd, but it's substantial compared to cutting him before. It more than doubles the money available. >$7M in 2014, & ~$10M in 2015 (even though we're carrying $7M in dead money).
I don't think it's fleecing our future, the money for Schaub is already accounted for in the cap for 2014 & 2015. $14M for 2014, $17M for 2015. Making him a June 1st cut adds money to our cap both years.
So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?
Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.
Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.
I think we're in cap hell if we don't expect our paid players to perform up to their cap hit.
Schaub..... no brainer. I don't believe Schaub's mother thinks we should take a $14M cap hit for him.
Andre.... I love the guy, he should retire a Texan, but no one is worth $15M but an elite QB.
Johnathan Joseph... he hasn't been worth $11M in 2 of the last three years. He needs to take a paycut (imo), renegotiate, or try to peddle his wares elsewhere. We gain $3.7M to cut him, I'd rather ask him to take a $5M paycut.
Duane Brown.... didn't perform like an elite LT last season. $8M is very good LT money. I reasonably expect him to earn that money in 2014, but I'm not against drafting an OT in the first round to put him on notice.
Arian Foster.... I expect him to earn his $8M & then some. He's due.
Chris Myers... I expect him to earn every bit of $7M
Owen Daniels.... turns 32 in November, coming off a broken leg.... Tony Gonzales only cost the Chiefs $5.3M last year, Owens going to hit us for $6.2M
Daniel Manning.... I don't like it, but I'd rather bring him back for $6M than try to find someone with his work ethic & leadership skills. But it's a gamble.
Yeah... I can see "cap hell" but I don't think it's about mismanaging the cap, it's more like hitting snake eyes on every roll of the dice.
Texian
Hall of Fame
I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season. The Colts knowing they were in cap hell dumped all their bad contracts and dead money in to the 2012 season. As a result the Colts were $40 million under the cap in 2013 and are $40 million under the cap this year. Currently the Colts sit $75 million under the cap in 2015. Sure makes it hard for another team to compete against those $$$. What the Homers and sore losers are going to say is the Colts have spent and are spending their money unwisely. The actual truth of the matter and facts show the Colts are Division Champs and have $40 million to spend to get even better.
What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell. It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new players. Let's see if the Texans have learned their lesson. Do they take all their dead money in 2014 or do they push as much as they can to 2015 and continue with the ill-fated processes of restructuring contracts and back loading contracts.
Texian
Hall of Fame
I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season. The Colts knowing they were in cap hell dumped all their bad contracts and dead money in to the 2012 season. As a result the Colts were $40 million under the cap in 2013 and are $40 million under the cap this year. Currently the Colts sit $75 million under the cap in 2015. Sure makes it hard for another team to compete against those $$$. What the Homers and sore losers are going to say is the Colts have spent and are spending their money unwisely. The actual truth of the matter and the facts show the Colts are Division Champs and have $40 million to spend to get even better.
What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell. It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 million to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new mediocre players. Let's see if the Texans have learned their lesson. Do they take all their dead money in 2014 or do they push as much as they can to 2015 and continue with the ill-fated processes of restructuring contracts and back loading contracts.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
There is no long term benefit, but there is short term benefit because it opens up cap space for the immediate season and get's you under this season's cap. Future dead money and less to work with in FA are the costs of using the June 1 designation.
It's similar to the benefits of a payday loan. You get the cash right away, but the interest is outrageous. But it's worth it to avoid late payment penalties, foreclosures and repossessions.
That's one way to look at it. If we make Schaub a June 1st cut, we'll be $40M under the cap in 2015... We are currently $80M under the cap for 2016. I think what you are seeing is a changing of the guard, where the Colts are parting ways with players from the old regime, as they build for the new.
Same thing happened to us 3 years ago, only difference is that Marvin Harris decided to retire & we didn't have anyone to step into Andre's place.
Gosder Cherilus was given a $14M signing bonus & his first two years salary are $1M & $1M..... his 2015 salary will be $4M & he'll get paid $7M for 2016 & 2017. How's that front loaded?
I wonder what they plan on doing with Robert Mathis.
The lesson they need to learn is how to get the most out of their players. The "bad contracts" you are talking about are Andre Johnson, Matt Schaub, Johnathan Joseph, Arian Foster, Duane Brown, Chris Myers, Owen Daniels, Daniel Manning, Brian Cushing, Kareem Jackson, Jj Watt, Shane Lecler, & Whitney Mercilus. In that order.
We could cut Andre, Matt, Jjo, & Arian & gain money towards the cap. The only thing bad about those contracts is that only one of those guys played like they should have a big contract in 2013 & 2014.
We can cut Myers & OD & gain money towards the cap. Again, Myers earned his money. Owen is the best TE we have on the roster, when healthy, he's worth his money.
We can cut Karrem & Lecler & gain money towards the cap, but both of those guys earned their money (Kareem made some bone headed mistakes, but he's cheap for a starting corner).
We can cut Jj & it would be net neutral, neither gain or lose. I shouldn't have to tell you how much sense that does not make.
Cutting Brian Cushing & Duane Brown are the only contracts that would hurt us "cap wise" They're the only ones I can think of that could be considred "bad contracts" Because all the other ones are a net positive.
Duane Brown may not have played up to expectations, but we gave us a hometown discount when we signed him & he definitely played up to that level, so it doesn't make sense to cut him.
Brian Cushing did not contribute as much as his contract would suggest, but not because he couldn't play at that level.... he was playing pretty well, before he got hurt. This injury being an LCL (& not an ACL or Achilles) we can expect Cushing to come back & be the man we're paying him to be... so it would make no sense cutting him.
The Colts will be signing "their" guys soon enough, & they will be in "cap hell." What they are doing now, is being cautious & frugal with their FA signings, just like we were until we signed Jjo & DMan.
They'll continue to give out $15M+ signing bonuses, backloading contracts as long as it makes sense.
What we can't do is pay Andre the same way we're paying Andre & pay Jj the way everyone wants to pay him.
The June 1st cut maximizes the available cap money over the next two years.
If we cut Matt Schaub now without the June 1st designation, our:
2014 cap goes up $4M
2015 cap goes up $17M
2016 cap goes up $19M
2015 cap goes up $17M
2016 cap goes up $19M
If we cut Matt with the June 1st designation, our:
2014 cap goes up $10M
2015 cap goes up $10M
2016 cap goes up $19M
2015 cap goes up $10M
2016 cap goes up $19M
My opinion, we're not getting ahead if we cut Matt only to sign a vet for $4M. We need more than a QB to replace Schaub if we're going to get back to winning in the short term. We should use the June 1st designation on him then we can sign players with cap hits of:
$4M veteran QB
$5M starting ILB (like D'Qwell Jackson)
$1M slot reciever
$5M starting ILB (like D'Qwell Jackson)
$1M slot reciever
It may be wishful thinking, but I think we can get Edelman, or Meachum for a $1M cap hit, maybe even Josh Cribbs who would make an excellent slot reciever imo. But that's if we're restricted only to using money created by cutting Schaub, which we're not.
If we were instead able to talk Matt into taking a pay-cut to $4M, then cut him as a June 1st 2015 cut we'll gain:
$10M in 2014
$14M in 2015
$16M in 2016
$14M in 2015
$16M in 2016
But I doubt Rick Smith has the skillz to pull that off.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You raise solid points but IMO oversell Indy's situation a bit. They are going to take chunks out of that $80 mil to retain folks to maintain their level of play, e.g. Vonte Davis who they have had for a total of $2.7 mil for the last two years who in all likelihood will be lost if not signed to a contract larger than the $8 mil/year Grimes contract. They are going to take a hit on either performance or cap for Brown as well. Our need to retain list for significant players is nil this offseason.
How are you defining bad contract? Duane Brown is playing for well less than his market value. JJ, KJ and Mercilus are on dirt cheap rookie contracts. Even Mercilus isn't overpaid on his performance level and JJ is monumentally under market value.
I'm pointing to those guys as the reason we don't have $80M of cap space. I don't think they are "bad contracts" in the real sense of the word, just trying to meet Texian halfway.
Texian
Hall of Fame
The reason the Texans don't have $80 million or even enough million to sign FA for more than Vet minimums (or a tad more is) is because they've spent more money than they've had in their salary cap bank the past 3 years. It's that Plain & Simple! The Texans have borrowed from future seasons to meet their current obligations. The jury is still out on the 2014 season. With the mindset that manages the salary cap still in place, the pattern of behavior says, expect more of the same.
If the Texans continue to mortgage the future, as expected, that basically destroys all of your future projections.
As for Gosder Cherilus you mistakenly miss the point. You're right about the salary cap being higher in the last 2 years of the contract. Where you missed is if Cherilus is cut in those last 2 years there is a substantial salary cap savings. Over 65% of Cherilus dead money is in the first 2 years of the contract. If Gosder is cut in yr4 it's a $5 mil cap savings and yr 5 is a $7.9 mil cap savings.
D'Quell Jackson is another example of the Colts using the pay as you go method instead of borrowing from tomorrow. If Jackson is cut after his first 2 years the dead money is only $500K and the cap savings is $5 mil.
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You must be talking about Andre's money. That's the only place such a description can come close to true. Except he's still one of the better receivers in the league & we're paying him as such.
How do you figure? Gosder signed a $35M contract. Only $7.8M is accounted for in the first two years... 22% of the contract. If he is cut in year 3 (2015) there's still $8.7M that must be accounted for. They lose $1.8M towards their salary cap.
Schaub's contract allows us to cut him in the third year (2014) & we're up $4M.... Cut him in year 4 & we're up $10M, year 5... $15M
Schaub's on a much bigger contract, $60M vs $22m. We cut Schaub after 2 years & we save $4M towards the cap, they only save $1M more & you think that's a better structure??
I'm sorry... I'm sure your way of thinking is based in logic, but for the life of me I can't see it. Sounds like "anything but the Texans' way" hate to me.
Kinda like "more Catholic than the Pope" thinking.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Gosder Cherilus - net cap savings after 2nd season.
D'Quell Jackson - after 2nd season.
Matt Schaub - after 2nd season.
Brian Cushing - after 3rd season.
Danieal Manning - after 2nd season.
Owen Daniels - after 2nd season.
JJo - dead even in 3rd, net savings after.
Arian Foster - after 2nd season.
Duane Brown - after 3rd season.
Chris Myers - after 2nd season.
Looks like you are exaggerating the difference.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Not when you consider the amounts. On average Colts contracts offer a substantial cap savings after their 2nd and 3rd years. The Texans contracts usually don't offer a substantial cap savings until after their 3rd and 4th years.