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State of the O-line

Carr Bombed said:
The one things all those offenses had in common... bad QB play.
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I'd think you'd have to focus more on individual units,,, did the OL get better. did the WR get better...

Competition usually brings out the best in the driven
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Yeah, and they didn't get any better by facing great defenses.
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QBs can either play at this level or not, I don't think it matters who you face in practice.. bad ones can look great in practice, but when the lights come on and the bullets start flying they simply can't play.
 
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Not surprising....................OT Terry Poole just picked up a couple of days ago was waived............he failed his physical, evidently due to his neck injury and/or his recent back injury. Easy come, easy go.
 
Carr Bombed said:
QBs can either play at this level or not, I don't think it matters who you face in practice.. bad ones can look great in practice, but when the lights come on and the bullets start flying they simply can't play.
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That goes for any position.

Facing talent in practice can help, but if you're not good then you're just not good. Chris Clark facing the Texans defense everyday isn't going to turn him into Duane Brown. Brown is simply a more talented player.

Not saying facing talent and getting advice from great players doesn't help but I think it's overstated how much it helps.

If you're good/great or put in the right kind of work/have the desire then you'll go as far as your talents will take you. For some people that's to the hall of fame. For some people that's middle school. And tons of variations in between. Playing with and against other great players isn't going to greatly affect a player becoming what they aren't.

There's a bunch of good or dominant units in the league but their counterparts on the other side of the ball just aren't talented. Just going against great units doesn't make you significantly better if at all.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Not surprising....................OT Terry Poole just picked up a couple of days ago was waived............he failed his physical, evidently due to his neck injury and/or his recent back injury. Easy come, easy go.
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faster than a speeding bullet. Faster than spicy tacos through my digestive track. Faster than Terry Poole through a physical..
 
thunderkyss said:
& it's only during camp & OTAs. They're playing the scout team for most of the season & you don't see those guys jumping starters because they got their butts whippex by Jj Watt all year.
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True.

There's a lot of factors that determine player success...I just think that sometimes it's overstated how much units improve by facing other good units in practice.
 
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badboy said:
I keep thinking Lamm is going to start and be at least as good as Newton. I want Davenport to not be thrown to wolves and I think he eventually replaces DBrown.
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The more I read about Davenport the more I think he's a natural LT. Hopefully they keep him on the left side to accelerate his development as the heir apparent to Brown. Can't wait to see how he does in preseason!
 
TheRealJoker said:
The more I read about Davenport the more I think he's a natural LT. Hopefully they keep him on the left side to accelerate his development as the heir apparent to Brown. Can't wait to see how he does in preseason!
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yes..that he is and even better seems to correct his mistakes fairly quickly. I was very happy to see Texans valued him as I did. Barring injury, he will be around for long time. As his body catches up to NFL it will not only be his long arms keeping up with defender. Just a note that I am looking at non main stream colleges for some of our picks next draft.
 
TheRealJoker said:
The more I read about Davenport the more I think he's a natural LT. Hopefully they keep him on the left side to accelerate his development as the heir apparent to Brown. Can't wait to see how he does in preseason!
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Oh yea with his length and athleticism he's clearly a potential franchise LT. That's setting a high bar but only time will tell.
 
TheRealJoker said:
The more I read about Davenport the more I think he's a natural LT. Hopefully they keep him on the left side to accelerate his development as the heir apparent to Brown. Can't wait to see how he does in preseason!
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That's why it's all the more imperative to find some sort of solution, or very least a competent band-aid, to the RT problem!
I feel that if Lamm can perform at least up to Newton level, or maybe Mancz can be relied upon to be as solid as he was a fill-in Center, then we can keep bringing Davenport along slowly at his natural LT position, occasionally spelling an aging Brown.
Reports from John Harris (I think?) stated that Davenport moves better as a LT and is a more natural fit there, but I unfortunately foresee us rotating him out at RT as a necessity after the rest of the options on our roster fail. Let's just hope it doesn't have an XSF-like stunting of his learning curve...
 
vupac1 said:
That's why it's all the more imperative to find some sort of solution, or very least a competent band-aid, to the RT problem!
I feel that if Lamm can perform at least up to Newton level, or maybe Mancz can be relied upon to be as solid as he was a fill-in Center, then we can keep bringing Davenport along slowly at his natural LT position, occasionally spelling an aging Brown.
Reports from John Harris (I think?) stated that Davenport moves better as a LT and is a more natural fit there, but I unfortunately foresee us rotating him out at RT as a necessity after the rest of the options on our roster fail. Let's just hope it doesn't have an XSF-like stunting of his learning curve...
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Mancz cannot play RT....his run blocking was poor at C........he'd be destroyed at RT. Remember also that Mancz tore the labrum in his right shoulder during a practice for the East-West Shrine All-Star Game in 2015 and had it surgically repaired. Although his shoulder has held up commendably at C, if moved to RT, injury to that right shoulder while trying to hold back outside pass rushers with an outstretched arm becomes a real possibility.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Mancz cannot play RT....his run blocking was poor at C........he'd be destroyed at RT. Remember also that Mancz tore the labrum in his right shoulder during a practice for the East-West Shrine All-Star Game in 2015 and had it surgically repaired. Although his shoulder has held up commendably at C, if moved to RT, injury to that right shoulder while trying to hold back outside pass rushers with an outstretched arm becomes a real possibility.
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I too thought him moving out any further than OG would be a stretch, but some posters here had me considering for the possibility, I think based on some experience at RT maybe in college? Anyways, wishful thinking just hoping our 5 best talent play together
 
Seeing Mancz as our key interior OL backup.

SuaFilo, Martin, Allen start with Mancz backing them up. Maybe Q can be in the mix.

Brown and Lamm start with Davenport the swing.

Not great but not horrific.
 
kiwitexansfan said:
Seeing Mancz as our key interior OL backup.

SuaFilo, Martin, Allen start with Mancz backing them up. Maybe Q can be in the mix.

Brown and Lamm start with Davenport the swing.

Not great but not horrific.
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What about Clark?

He's starting LT now since brown is holding out. If Brown comes back I think RT goes to Clark or Lamm with the loser being the swing tackle. I imagine Davenport makes the team but is likely inactive most games this year.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
What about Clark?

He's starting LT now since brown is holding out. If Brown comes back I think RT goes to Clark or Lamm with the loser being the swing tackle. I imagine Davenport makes the team but is likely inactive most games this year.
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Too early to call, but I think it goes just like the current depth chart.

Lamm at RT, with Giacomini backing him up.
Clark and Davenport at LT.

When Brown comes back, Clark becomes the swing tackle.
He may share snaps with Lamm like whatshisname (Salaam?) with Brown ( only at LT) when Duane was a rookie.

I think it's too difficult to ask a young player to man that spot???
 
Q is more solid in person as appearing on the tube than he appeared in the photo posted by CnnD early in the game thread.
 
That drive was bad. Q got dominated and then there was a blown handoff with Watson and Hunt on the draw play
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
What about Clark?

He's starting LT now since brown is holding out. If Brown comes back I think RT goes to Clark or Lamm with the loser being the swing tackle. I imagine Davenport makes the team but is likely inactive most games this year.
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Of course Davnpoet makes the 53, because if he's left on the PS he's snapped up by another team.
BTW they were playing him some at RT while Weeden was in the game.
 
IDEXAN said:
Of course Davnpoet makes the 53, because if he's left on the PS he's snapped up by another team.
BTW they were playing him some at RT while Weeden was in the game.
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As he should. The LT v. RT distinction has largely gone the way of the dodo over the last couple decades. Teams flip strong side a lot more, they flip pass rushers. If Davenport is better than the other OTs at RT he should play there regardless of preconceived notions of whether his 'natural' position is LT.

In college Duane Brown played 2 years at RT transitioning from TE before moving to LT as a senior. His 1st reception in college was a TD by the way. Hard to imagine him lumbering one in since he has been a Texan..
 
infantrycak said:
As he should. The LT v. RT distinction has largely gone the way of the dodo over the last couple decades. Teams flip string side a lot more, they flip pass rushers. If Davenport is better than the other OTs at RT he should play there regardless of preconceived notions of whether his 'natural' position is LT.
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I wouldn't exactly say that distinction has gone by the way of the dodo. Most QBs are right-handed, and therefore their "blind side" is on the left. That's why your best pass protector is typically chosen to be your LT.
 
infantrycak said:
As he should. The LT v. RT distinction has largely gone the way of the dodo over the last couple decades. Teams flip string side a lot more, they flip pass rushers. If Davenport is better than the other OTs at RT he should play there regardless of preconceived notions of whether his 'natural' position is LT.

In college Duane Brown played 2 years at RT transitioning from TE before moving to LT as a senior. His 1st reception in college was a TD by the way. Hard to imagine him lumbering one in since he has been a Texan..
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True, but the offense can always counter with a chip by the TE or the RB when the D put the best pass rusher on the RT, or they can call a quick pass to negate him.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I wouldn't exactly say that distinction has gone by the way of the dodo. Most QBs are right-handed, and therefore their "blind side" is on the left. That's why your best pass protector is typically chosen to be your LT.
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Which is why offenses flip the strong side to the left much more often than they used to. Which then results in the best pass rushers flipping to be on the RT. Things are much less static than they used to be.

76Texan said:
True, but the offense can always counter with a chip by the TE or the RB when the D put the best pass rusher on the RT, or they can call a quick pass to negate him.
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Of course. My whole point is teams on both sides are scheming and changing up things more. Hell even before the side flipping you saw pass rush specialists like Matthis over the RT. Strahan played LDE until they let him freelance. Even then he played mostly over RT.
 
Although Davenport got owned a couple of times at LT, I thought that overall, he was better at LT than RT. Weeden got lots of pressure from the right side. Chad Slade was not good over there, either. There were a number of positive plays to the right side when Davenport and Quess were there.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
What about Clark?

He's starting LT now since brown is holding out. If Brown comes back I think RT goes to Clark or Lamm with the loser being the swing tackle. I imagine Davenport makes the team but is likely inactive most games this year.
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I thought Lamm struggled on the right side. Then in the third series he's in at LT & Giocamini comes in at RT, they march down the field.

Was that because Clark was even worse on the left side? (I didn't even pay attention to Clark).

Then I thought Davenport played better than I expected, especially on the left side. Not that I think he's ready to start on the left side, but considering where he comes from, I was impressed.
 
infantrycak said:
Which is why offenses flip the strong side to the left much more often than they used to. Which then results in the best pass rushers flipping to be on the RT. Things are much less static than they used to be.



Of course. My whole point is teams on both sides are scheming and changing up things more. Hell even before the side flipping you saw pass rush specialists like Matthis over the RT. Strahan played LDE until they let him freelance. Even then he played mostly over RT.
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But some guys just move better to their left or vice versa

You want your best pass blocker to be on the left.... unless he don't move to his left as well
 
infantrycak said:
That I see as totally legitimate. I just don't buy the road grading rush blocker RT, fast feet pass blocking LT dichotomy any more.
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Agreed...

The goal is to have the best that does their thing regardless (you've broken me from using irregardless) at each position. That and coaching wins SB's
 
thunderkyss said:
I thought Lamm struggled on the right side. Then in the third series he's in at LT & Giocamini comes in at RT, they march down the field.

Was that because Clark was even worse on the left side? (I didn't even pay attention to Clark).

Then I thought Davenport played better than I expected, especially on the left side. Not that I think he's ready to start on the left side, but considering where he comes from, I was impressed.
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TBH I wasn't paying attention but I did hear on the Radiohead panthers pulled their starters after the first series so that could've had something to do with the offense looking better in general since it appears most of our starters were still in.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
TBH I wasn't paying attention but I did hear on the Radiohead panthers pulled their starters after the first series so that could've had something to do with the offense looking better in general since it appears most of our starters were still in.
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The Texans got on the board against the Panthers’ second defense, but Savage didn’t necessarily justify much of the early hype that he was performing much better than rookie Deshaun Watson. Of course, it’s the preseason, so perspective is important. With the Texans playing without their starting offensive tackles (Duane Brown‘s holding out for a new contract, Derek Newton‘s out after last year’s massive knee injury), it was going to be hard for anyone to look polished in the first game out against what should be a very good defense. They were better when he went no-huddle, but the first impression of him leading a team that has been good-except-for-quarterbacks-for-years wasn’t great.
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Link
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
What about Clark?

He's starting LT now since brown is holding out. If Brown comes back I think RT goes to Clark or Lamm with the loser being the swing tackle. I imagine Davenport makes the team but is likely inactive most games this year.
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Good catch. Spaced on Clark.

You're right, he'll be ahead of Davenport at least to start with.
 
thunderkyss said:
I thought Lamm struggled on the right side. Then in the third series he's in at LT & Giocamini comes in at RT, they march down the field.

Was that because Clark was even worse on the left side? (I didn't even pay attention to Clark).

Then I thought Davenport played better than I expected, especially on the left side. Not that I think he's ready to start on the left side, but considering where he comes from, I was impressed.
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Clark was terrible. Several times, his man got around him on the outside without being touched.
He was also fortunate to not be called for motion on several plays. He would take a step back before the ball was hiked.
 
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infantrycak said:
I just don't buy the road grading rush blocker RT, fast feet pass blocking LT dichotomy any more.
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Oh I think that dichotomy is still valid. Take a look at the discussion this year with some draft guys discussing the position the Jags rookie OT is best suited for in the NFL after a successful career in college at 'Bama.
Is Cam Robinson an NFL left tackle? At least some analysts don't think so:
"Ideally, I think he's probably better suited to play on the right side," Brooks said. "In a pinch, I think you could get away with playing him at left tackle. He's big. He's massive. He's a people mover. He does a great job in the run game. He's had success at times against elite pass rushers. I think the biggest challenge for him would be facing the speedy pass rushers that you normally see when you're a left tackle.Why does this matter?
Because left tackles typically go much earlier in the draft than any other position along the offensive line and make a lot more money."
****
http://www.al.com/alabamafootball/index.ssf/2017/03/is_cam_robinson_an_nfl_left_ta.html
****
 
IDEXAN said:
Oh I think that dichotomy is still valid. Take a look at the discussion this year with some draft guys discussing the position the Jags rookie OT is best suited for in the NFL after a successful career in college at 'Bama.
...
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That misses the point which was someone capable of playing LT could also play RT in the modern NFL. It wasn't that the traditionally less talented folks who played road grader, doesn't face the best pass rushers, gets TE help RTs could now play both sides.
 
infantrycak said:
That misses the point which was someone capable of playing LT could also play RT in the modern NFL. It wasn't that the traditionally less talented folks who played road grader, doesn't face the best pass rushers, gets TE help RTs could now play both sides.
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The essence of the discussion is that fewer RTs are capable of being competent LTs than the population of LTs who also can competently play RT. So by the basic econ law of supply & demand the LTs are more valuable.
Make whatever point of that you choose to.
 
I haven't had a chance to watch the entire game but got to see some of the highlights. Have to sign up again this year for NFL package since it didn't automatically renew from last season. AFN didn't air the game out here in Italy so I will have to wait until tomorrow to see the game.

As for the highlights...I liked the one where Martin got to the second level and moved his guy out of the play which allowed Blue pretty good access to the end zone. I've heard the rest of the OL looked fairly bad...did this include Mancz?
 
I thought Davenport looked really good at LT and held his own on right side. Giacomini (spelling?) Didn't look so good & IIRC had 2 flags.
 
bah007 said:
I know Q is a fan favorite but I thought he looked pretty bad during the time I focused on him.

It's understandable considering the situation, but good stories don't win football games.
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He was being overpowered routinely. I doubt if he will ever be able to reach the level of strength that he might have, had he not had to have his body go through the long-term "trauma."
 
amazing80 said:
Lamm sucked last night. I would like to see someone else at RT and Q or someone start at LG. X was not good either.
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Add Filo and Allen and Clark to that list......and that's like asking a soon-to-be-dead man to pick his poison. Somebody besides Martin for the 1st team OL better begin looking consistently serviceable before the preseason is over........or the season may quickly be over for the Texans.
 
amazing80 said:
Lamm sucked last night. I would like to see someone else at RT and Q or someone start at LG. X was not good either.
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The OL was Offensive.

Davenport and Martin were the only bright spots. IMHO.

Last yrs guys that played were just as bad as they were last yr and I really dont expect much to change this yr. If you're bad at your job, you're bad at your job. That is a constant.
 
steelbtexan said:
The OL was Offensive.

Davenport and Martin were the only bright spots. IMHO.

Last yrs guys that played were just as bad as they were last yr and I really dont expect much to change this yr. If you're bad at your job, you're bad at your job. That is a constant.
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Perhaps it's the coaching if guys are regressing. Or injuries...

In either case we're screwed
 
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