The ol if healthy should be very much improved. You're right about DW4 Being as good as the offense around him. He certainly isn't capable of carrying an offense right now.
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State of the O-line
- Thread starter jradMIT
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The ol if healthy should be very much improved. You're right about DW4 Being as good as the offense around him. He certainly isn't capable of carrying an offense right now.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Last season "was" Watson carrying this team....sure wasn't the defense. ST's did about mediocre. Defense easily failed in keeping 3 victories and a much better record. Watson willed the Texans to some of those victories last season. That was accomplished with a beat up OL, running game that faded down the stretch, an injured Hopkins carrying the receiving load, and TE's that could've produced much more if utilized.
There are a lot of plays where Watson pulls a rabbit out of his hat despite the other players / playcalling. That's what makes him special ….
Now if he can only find some consistency , resolve the boom or bust nature of this offense … he and the rest of the offense will be fine.
It's the defense I'm worried about. They are likely to get run over by ancient technology - The run game. Reader gone , Jernigan out of the picture …. There really isn't a whole lot of talent available on the FA market at the position as of now.
If the defense can't stop the run , it will limit the opportunities for Watson and the offense and put a lot more pressure on them to produce when they do hit the field.
I see this as the biggest problem going into the season - a bigger problem than a very weak secondary.
I expect them to be in 3rd and short an awful lot this season … and the whole bag of tricks is available on 3rd and short which could really expose that weak secondary.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
There are a lot of plays where Watson pulls a rabbit out of his hat despite the other players / playcalling. That's what makes him special ….
Now if he can only find some consistency , resolve the boom or bust nature of this offense … he and the rest of the offense will be fine.
It's the defense I'm worried about. They are likely to get run over by ancient technology - The run game. Reader gone , Jernigan out of the picture …. There really isn't a whole lot of talent available on the FA market at the position as of now.
If the defense can't stop the run , it will limit the opportunities for Watson and the offense and put a lot more pressure on them to produce when they do hit the field.
I see this as the biggest problem going into the season - a bigger problem than a very weak secondary.
I expect them to be in 3rd and short an awful lot this season … and the whole bag of tricks is available on 3rd and short which could really expose that weak secondary.
The biggest key for the Texans Defensive success....will the team full throttle the offense for 60 minutes so the defense can get in the habit of protecting the lead.
On a side note for OB....stop putting the defense on the field first by deferring the coin toss when you win them. Your bread and butter will be the offense so you better get them on the field as early as possible and start looking for ways to score early and fast. Try opening a game in a No Huddle 2-Minute Offense.....lets just say that should catch more than a few DC’s off guard and force them to burn an early TO to make defensive or personnel adjustments.
They are gonna have to score a whole lot of points this season …. or else.
I like the idea of starting with the ball when your defense is as questionable as this one - get a lead and teams might go away from the run.
But this team has been notorious for slow starts - One opening drive TD last season and that was in the final game with McCarron at QB. That has to change or else.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Consistency, tightness when momentum shifts, which leads to doubt and defensiveness. Play calling doesn't help. That's just the offensive side. Special teams have improved greatly in containment but have yet to identify a game breaker in return game. Defensively unforced error letting Reader walk just like Honey Badger and KJ year before. It's a trend in the wrong direction, that does not reward outstanding play from key free agent to be starters. DeAndre Hopkins, tops Clowney and Tunsil trade for stupidity.
This is nothing but a .500 team on a downward spiral to mediocrity. Down to O'Brian's level.
OL has nowhere to go but up, investment made but is it really going to matter.....
This is nothing but a .500 team on a downward spiral to mediocrity. Down to O'Brian's level.
OL has nowhere to go but up, investment made but is it really going to matter.....
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
I watched a short documentary on Vince Young a few days back on Facebook.
Time kind of fades the memory of just how good he was in college, how good he flashed in the early years in the NFL (at times), how bad media and fans hammered him for being ‘stupid’ etc.
And above all highlighted just how badly mismanaged he was with a coach that didn’t really buy into his skillset.
I’m not saying DW4 is VY10, just feel that over the next year or 2 his career will go one way or the other.
They are all pretty damn elite to get to the NFL. Scheme and coaching play a huge part in where that trajectory goes.
I hope it goes the right way for the Texans as I really love the excitement Watson brings to the game when he’s on form.
So it's the coaches fault VY didn't succeed?
That was a screwed up situation. OC & HC never really took to him, at the same time, Vince wasn't about becoming a better player either.
& that's where I see a big difference. Watson is trying to be what BO'b wants him to be, imo sometimes too much.
I'm also hoping BO'b is getting out of the way, letting Tim Kelly, Carl Smith, & D4 to build an offense on their own.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Excellent assessment!!! I believe some HC's are coming around to the idea that CFB QB's play in a much different offense. In the past, some HC's tried to ram the round peg into that square hole while damning the results. On a side note; smart HC's didn't run their rookie QB's out there, they had a veteran who could take the reins while their new QB got re-wired on how to play the QB position. Today, smart HC's are taking that shiny new QB and assessing their skill-set so they can modify their offense in order to have the best possible results. Maybe OB finally realized his shortcomings and handed the reins over to Kelly and Smith to re-wire his offensive playbook to better fit Watson's skill-set.
I think it's always been a little give & take. CFB QBs have to adjust if they're going to survive in the NFL.
But, it's all about winning. As long as a Kaepernick or VY is winning, most coaches aren't too focused on that progression. Both were extreme liberal examples.
But as soon as the winning stops they flipped. & the QB had to change now.
VY was spending 100,000 grand at the Cheesecake Factory drinking in 1 night.
What happened with VY's coaches in Philly?
You mean like the RPO's BOB put in for DW4?
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
A better example would be the offense he modified to help Watson in his first 6 games. The sky was the limit but then OB went back to his offense....in the process he drug Watson and his offense back to the results he had gotten before and after Watson’s first 6 games.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Exactly, this is something I’ve said to Steel quite a few times already.
Honestly man do you really think there's much of a chance of a control freak like O'Brien delegating more instead of less control to his subordinates ?
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
badboy
Hall of Fame
Times, they be achanging. At least the song said so.
Sad thing is it won't matter without much improvement from the QB position.
Getting back to the ol, with a healthy Tunsil and the 2 rookies showing typical 2nd year improvement the ol should be much improved. With the new weapons added there should be no excuses.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
The thing is if you look historically at those types of QB's the league usually figures them out within a year or two if they don't improve themselves as passers quite a bit. Guys like Russell Wilson though showed a much more tremendous ability to scramble and not take the hits that many players before him did who had the ability to run. His passing skills were better than many other dual threat QB's, but its his ability to not take the hits that those other guys did that makes him successful to me. RG3 came into the league and was straight up ramming into defenders like he was an in between the tackles runner when he didn't even play like that in college. Didn't last past his rookie season with all the potential he had. Its a shame too, because I liked watching RG3.
Absolutely.
Not only is he a control freak, he wants to be successful. Now he's got to try to become a successful GM as well as HC. I think he's going to relax on the OC side a bit.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
At the same time, he probably knows his job is on the line this season. If the offense comes out struggling the first few games, I would expect BOB to start taking back OC duties.
Texansballer74
The Marine
I surely hope so but if the offense and team starts off rocky (0-4). We can best believe he will take back over OC duties.
He gives QBs 2 quarters. OCs might get 2 drives.
If they start out 0-4 , I don't think the offense will be the root cause …. The defense is.
They lack premier talent at every level.
House of Pain
Wild Speculator
Spare me the Pollyanna routine. This is 2020. They play for money. The reward is a stupid-big contract. And regarding Reader, the way OB hands out contracts I'm sure the Texans made him quite an offer and he got overpaid elsewhere.
They did make him a solid offer - Cincy just offered him more.
I've said on several occasions that I think Reader will be the biggest loss of the offseason - having the biggest impact on the upcoming season as a whole …. but I can also see why they didn't overpay to keep him - he's not a 3 down player , he's a specialist - kinda like a 3rd down back. Not necessarily the type of player you want to tie a significant portion of cap space to.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
The Bengals evidently recognized that this is a significant down side to Reader and had him lose weight so that he could become quicker, more of a pass rush factor and a 3 down player. By limiting his carbs during the offseason, he has managed to weigh in now at 320 lbs............down from ~350 lbs....................a weight loss of ~30 lbs. Such a weight loss may affect his run stuffing ability and do little for his pass rush ability. When you look back at his Clemson days, he always had problems with weight control, vacillating between 320-340...............and during his entire college career, he was a 2 down rotational player, not unlike his stint with the Texans.
I don't believe that the Bengals will be getting their money's worth. Drastic player weight losses don't tend to consistently translate well to increased strength and balanced overall performance improvement (with significant weight loss, the tendency is........... the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away). In fact, with his weight drop in the NFL (as compared to what could be the case in college competition), he may very well be less not more the player he was with the Texans.
Reader can stuff the run at 320 or 350. The Bengals are in a division with teams that can and will run the football. They'll get their money's worth.
Let's watch the Texans try to stop the Titans, Colts, and Jags run games, now. Best way to beat Watson is keep the football on offense. And if we're talking about getting your money's worth, signing Reader would have been a hellava lot smarter than extending Mercilus or Martin, and trading for David Johnson. Trades aren't the only way O'Brien has screwed the pooch as GM.
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
That's to be seen. At Clemson, he never played less than 325 lbs. Again, this is no longer college. With his weight loss, it's obvious that the Bengals will be expecting him to play 3 downs and significantly contribute to the pass rush. I believe his technique and his background experience, not his weight will be more his limiting factors in the latter. Furthermore, it is to be seen if he can maintain endurance as a full-time starter. In his years with the Texans, he has averaged just over 50% of defensive snaps. That's a far cry from the 75% or more that he will be expected to handle throughout the season. Again, the results of all of these changes are still to be seen.
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KoolAid Sipper
AFCEVET
I still don't seem to understand all the love for Reader. The defense stunk against the run last year with him, so why not let him go to the highest bidder? The rest of those transactions stink too, but I think there is cap relief after this season on all 3 of those players.
Don't understand the love for a guy who anchored the middle of the run defense ?
Just watch this season unfold as teams pound it up the middle …. You'll figure it out.
Guys like Reader do a lot of stuff that doesn't show up in the stat sheet …. occupying double teams , keeping the LBers clean and closing off both A gaps. Teams didn't get a whole lot running the ball between the guards and that is in large part due to Reader.
From what I understand , the Texans did make him an offer in the $11m range. Cincy offered an average of $13.25.
At almost 7% of the cap , that's more than I really want to pay a guy who's essentially a run down only player. Still , I think his leaving will have the biggest impact on this season of any move the Texans made this year and that includes trading Hopkins or anything they did in the draft. Reader was a top tier NT and they have no substitute , particularly now that they walked away from Jernigan.
All three teams in this division are run heavy offenses. I expect teams to run early and often against this defense and be successful at it - we'll likely see them in 3rd and short situations time and again and those DB's are gonna get exploited as a result. Lots of play action on 3rd and short cause the whole playbook is available in those situations.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
With Jernigan, I thought they'd be ok against the run. Weaver would show alot of 4-man fronts w/ Watt, Jernigan, Blackson, and Whit. That's a tough line to run against, especially with Zach & McKinney backing them up. Now that Jernigan is out of the picture, do you throw the rookie in there? Omenihu is more of a pass rusher (even though he's been working out more to be better against the run). I hope the FO knows what they're doing by not signing Jernigan.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
Is it naive to hope that as Weaver knows his DL inside out and has had years working with Blackson, Dunn, and Watkins now, he is comfortable with what he can do at that position, along with the rookies he has to work with.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
A 300 lb defensive lineman, expected to push against one or more 300 lb offensive linemen, without 2 good feet (recently coming off of a metatarsal fracture treated nonsurgically........i.e., the bone not reinforced) is not exactly a great bet short-term or long-term.
KoolAid Sipper
AFCEVET
I get it, you're right guys do things that don't show up in the stat sheet and I do appreciate that but the bottom line is Reader's work did not contribute to anything significant to the outcome of the the run defense. Is it all his fault? Indeed not and it may be deficiencies in the guys around him. But why pay a guy who's work is not significant enough to affect the outcome of those around him. There are some positions where this does not apply (maybe Edge, QB, CB), but IMO Reader does not qualify for a top 10 salary for what he brings to the table. You can find a space eater to occupy blocks to keep LBs clean for less that what Reader is now getting. The Texans slotted the money they were comfortable with and he took another offer. I just think that unless the DT is an exceptional talent, that position should be rotational to keep the guys fresh and no need for a significant salary slotted there. Plus with the Texans airing out for 6,000 yards, who is gonna run on us?
KoolAid Sipper
AFCEVET
Offensive Line Rankings and Notes: 2020 Offseason
subscribers.footballguys.com
Houston Texans
Starters: Laremy Tunsil, Max Scharping, Nick Martin, Zach Fulton, Tytus Howard
Backups: Roderick Johnson, Senio Kelemete, Greg Mancz, Charlie Heck [R]
Notes: Left tackle Laremy Tunsil leads this unit, making Pro Bowl starter last season. He and right tackle Tytus Howard (returning from an injury-shortened rookie season) should form a well-above-average set of tackle bookends. The interior, with left guard Max Sharping and center Nick Martin, is mobile and can push the pile during the inside zone plays favored by the coaching staff.
OL Coach: Mike Devlin. Ranking: Top-Tier.
Offensive Line Rankings and Notes: 2020 Offseason
Offensive line related news, injuries, and updates, as training camp opens.
subscribers.footballguys.com
Houston Texans
Starters: Laremy Tunsil, Max Scharping, Nick Martin, Zach Fulton, Tytus Howard
Backups: Roderick Johnson, Senio Kelemete, Greg Mancz, Charlie Heck [R]
Notes: Left tackle Laremy Tunsil leads this unit, making Pro Bowl starter last season. He and right tackle Tytus Howard (returning from an injury-shortened rookie season) should form a well-above-average set of tackle bookends. The interior, with left guard Max Sharping and center Nick Martin, is mobile and can push the pile during the inside zone plays favored by the coaching staff.
OL Coach: Mike Devlin. Ranking: Top-Tier.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Offensive Line Rankings and Notes: 2020 Offseason
Offensive Line Rankings and Notes: 2020 Offseason
Offensive line related news, injuries, and updates, as training camp opens.
Houston Texans
View attachment 6185
Starters: Laremy Tunsil, Max Scharping, Nick Martin, Zach Fulton, Tytus Howard
Backups: Roderick Johnson, Senio Kelemete, Greg Mancz, Charlie Heck [R]
Notes: Left tackle Laremy Tunsil leads this unit, making Pro Bowl starter last season. He and right tackle Tytus Howard (returning from an injury-shortened rookie season) should form a well-above-average set of tackle bookends. The interior, with left guard Max Sharping and center Nick Martin, is mobile and can push the pile during the inside zone plays favored by the coaching staff.
OL Coach: Mike Devlin. Ranking: Top-Tier.
I like the info....only hope the OL can take the next step as a unit this season.
I get it, you're right guys do things that don't show up in the stat sheet and I do appreciate that but the bottom line is Reader's work did not contribute to anything significant to the outcome of the the run defense. Is it all his fault? Indeed not and it may be deficiencies in the guys around him. But why pay a guy who's work is not significant enough to affect the outcome of those around him. There are some positions where this does not apply (maybe Edge, QB, CB), but IMO Reader does not qualify for a top 10 salary for what he brings to the table. You can find a space eater to occupy blocks to keep LBs clean for less that what Reader is now getting. The Texans slotted the money they were comfortable with and he took another offer. I just think that unless the DT is an exceptional talent, that position should be rotational to keep the guys fresh and no need for a significant salary slotted there. Plus with the Texans airing out for 6,000 yards, who is gonna run on us?
The bold is completely and utterly false.
The reason he was paid so well was his significant impact on the outcome of the run game and he did affect the outcome of those around him , he was exceptional in that regard.
That's those things that don't show up in the stat sheet.
Without that guy in the middle , you really can't run that 3-4 defense effectively. The NT is the foundation of a 3-4 , maybe the most critical piece of the scheme. Without that guy in the middle , teams can run it up the middle picking up big chunks.
We saw that right here in Houston while Jamie Sharper and Jay Foreman were racking up large tackle numbers …. 4-5 yards downfield when Seth Payne was out for stretches and particularly the season after he left. First and second down picking up 4-5 yards each , leaving them in 3rd and 1or 2 on a routine basis. But Foreman and Sharper were filling up the stat sheet …. while opponents averaged 148 yards a game on the ground against them in 2003 and 122 per game in 06 when Payne only played 5 games.
KoolAid Sipper
AFCEVET
I understand the role, IMO Reader wasn't that valuable of a piece to have gotten into a bidding contest. Agree to disagree.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Corrosion if I remember correctly said as much in a previous post.
Offensive Line Rankings and Notes: 2020 Offseason
Offensive Line Rankings and Notes: 2020 Offseason
Offensive line related news, injuries, and updates, as training camp opens.
Houston Texans
View attachment 6185
Starters: Laremy Tunsil, Max Scharping, Nick Martin, Zach Fulton, Tytus Howard
Backups: Roderick Johnson, Senio Kelemete, Greg Mancz, Charlie Heck [R]
Notes: Left tackle Laremy Tunsil leads this unit, making Pro Bowl starter last season. He and right tackle Tytus Howard (returning from an injury-shortened rookie season) should form a well-above-average set of tackle bookends. The interior, with left guard Max Sharping and center Nick Martin, is mobile and can push the pile during the inside zone plays favored by the coaching staff.
OL Coach: Mike Devlin. Ranking: Top-Tier.
Texans had a good OL last year. People just want to push the false narrative that the line sucks because they don’t want to admit Watson is a flawed qb. So they blame OBrien. Or the OL. Or the WR. Or the play calling. Or the running game. Or anything besides Watson.
Texansballer74
The Marine
This is a false claim. Our oline was only good in run pro. Pass pro they were freaking horrendous. And dude stop the nonsense, only one fan thinks Watson is perfect. Watson shoulders his share of the blame too. You’re just trolling
It's what he does
They were rated #8 in the NFL in pass block win rate, but nice try with continuing on with the completely bogus narrative.
NFL pass-blocking, pass-rushing rankings: 2019 PBWR, PRWR leaderboard
ESPN Analytics created a new way to measure pass blocking and pass-rushing. Here are the leaders for the 2019 season.
www.espn.com
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Actually @KarlK is correct - the OL was well above league average in pass protection.
They dropped from 62 sacks in 2018 to 49 in 2019 and a large percentage of those were not attributed to poor OL play but …. Heroball by their QB in both seasons. They actually scored more points per game in 2018.
We've had this conversation before.
Watson has a propensity to hang onto the ball looking for a big play when its not there.
That's a huge part of why this offense is boom or bust - they either make a big play or they give the ball away - very few sustained drives.
Thing is , his escape-ability is what makes Watson special , he's got to learn when and when not to ….