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State of the O-line

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Rub routes and play action pass.
And more roll outs, too.
O'Brien depends on his players to beat the defenders too much.
Leebig is right.
Not enough cover beaters whether the D was in cover 2, 3, 4.
B/c when you get to big boy football in the playoffs, you can't depend on such tricks b/c all those types of things depend on something else in the offense working or clicking just right.

Rub routes only work when you can confuse &/or pick the defenders off...short of getting that, they're not very effective.

Play action only works when the run game is going..shut down the run game, you shut down the play action pass game.

Rolling the pocket too much not only limits the qb (only has half the field to throw to), it moves your qb from his protection.

Your guys have to be able to win their 1 on 1's in the playoffs & if you learned nothing from watching KC who have at least 3 guys on the outside that present serious mismatches & can do that, then you didn't learn anything.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
B/c when you get to big boy football in the playoffs, you can't depend on such tricks b/c all those types of things depend on something else in the offense working or clicking just right.

Rub routes only work when you can confuse &/or pick the defenders off...short of getting that, they're not very effective.

Play action only works when the run game is going..shut down the run game, you shut down the play action pass game.

Rolling the pocket too much not only limits the qb (only has half the field to throw to), it moves your qb from his protection.

Your guys have to be able to win their 1 on 1's in the playoffs & if you learned nothing from watching KC who have at least 3 guys on the outside that present serious mismatches & can do that, then you didn't learn anything.
Go back and watch what the Colts did last year and the Chiefs game this year.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Go back and watch what the Colts did last year and the Chiefs game this year.
How about last year's SB when another boy genius HC's explosive offense got shut down. Why? B/c he could no longer run it with his hobbled RB. Goff trying to use PA was dead in the water at that point & he & the offense struggled. The defense simply wasn't biting.

A little different scenario this year with KS. He actually went away from the run & started trying to have his qb just drop back & throw it....or use PA without really pressing the defense to defend the run. Either way, as a result KC was all over Jimmy G & forced him into some bad throws & mistakes that ultimately cost them. Mathieu even said it post game "I'm glad they stopped running it.."

You're catering your opinion to the exception, not the rule.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
How about last year's SB when another boy genius HC's explosive offense got shut down. Why? B/c he could no longer run it with his hobbled RB. Goff trying to use PA was dead in the water at that point & he & the offense struggled. The defense simply wasn't biting.

A little different scenario this year with KS. He actually went away from the run & started trying to have his qb just drop back & throw it....or use PA without really pressing the defense to defend the run. Either way, as a result KC was all over Jimmy G & forced him into some bad throws & mistakes that ultimately cost them. Mathieu even said it post game "I'm glad they stopped running it.."

You're catering your opinion to the exception, not the rule.
I only want to look at the Texans against the Colts and the Chiefs.
They are relevant to things at hand.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
I only want to look at the Texans against the Colts and the Chiefs.
They are relevant to things at hand.
Concept is the same all over the league buddy. Noone's biting on PA if you're no threat to run the ball or your run game is contained. The Texans against the Colts in the playoffs was the same.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
I like Scherff. But it is important to note that Nov 2018, he underwent surgery for a ruptured pec. Then the end of this past Dec, underwent shoulder labrum surgery. He also sustained an elbow ligament injury around the same time, an injury which was felt to be able to be rehabbed without surgery.

Keep in mind while making your assessments, that as far as the labrum tear surgery, 85-90% of NFL players will return to play in 5-6 months.........and starters will usually be able to return to starting. But return to preinjury performance level may not return until the 2nd season post surgery.
Thanks! Knew about elbow but not it was ligaments.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Concept is the same all over the league buddy. Noone's biting on PA if you're no threat to run the ball or your run game is contained. The Texans against the Colts in the playoffs was the same.
Everything starts out 0-0.
The Texans were far from last in the running game.
And yes, even OB had run a few PA passes off the ZBS this past year with some success.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Concept is the same all over the league buddy. Noone's biting on PA if you're no threat to run the ball or your run game is contained. The Texans against the Colts in the playoffs was the same.
Yep there are issues when the WCO struggles to run the ball.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
LOLLLLLL did ya'll see the expert level troll job Walter Fooball did with the Texans mock draft??? OMG its epic!

They went full petty (alot of you guys will appreciate that aspect!!) and mocked an OFFENSIVE TACKLE to the Texans with the 2nd round pick!! LMAOOOOOOOO
funniest shi .. oops ALMOST GOT ME -- STUFF (yeah funniest stuff) i've read so far about the draft. Yes I know the history of Walter Football Vs. Buttcrack McQuack, but its STILL funny.
Even better, one mock I saw had the Texans taking a TE in RD2. That mock was sheer spite.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
So going in to next year this team has...

Martin - Center
Mancz - Center/Guard
Fulton - Center/Guard
Scharping - Guard
Tunsil - Tackle
Clark - Tackle
Johnson - Tackle
Nkansah - Tackle
Howard - Tackle
Kelemete - Guard

And a couple of others on PS and IR.

Starting 5 next year, left to right..imo
Tunsil, Scharping, Martin, Fulton, Howard.

Weak link for me is Fulton. I like Mancz better. That position should be upgraded though. I thought Scharping played pretty dang good for a rook. And Howard was doing very well. LT, LG, and RT should be set for the future. Upgrade C and RG and this line could be very good. I still think Devlin holds this group back a lot. There has to be better options out there. ST's was garbage and OB got him a new coach and look at the improvement in that group this year. Not sure why it's taking him so long to realize the OL could be better with better coaching.
Is anyone prepared to entertain the idea that OB’s offensive scheme is so bad that defenses fully recognize what’s going to happen before the offense even breaks the huddle? If I comfortably sit in my chair and nail 80%+ of what OB’s doing on a given play....it probably handcuffs the OL even more than any of us think.

I still think the OL could use a talent bump and see Martin and Fulton as the weakest links moving forward.

I’d really be stoked if Houston made a play for RG, Schiff then drafted Cesar Ruiz to play Center. 2 moves like this immediately change the look of this OL....damn near could make it tough for OB and Devlin to screw it up.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Is anyone prepared to entertain the idea that OB’s offensive scheme is so bad that defenses fully recognize what’s going to happen before the offense even breaks the huddle? If I comfortably sit in my chair and nail 80%+ of what OB’s doing on a given play....it probably handcuffs the OL even more than any of us think.

I still think the OL could use a talent bump and see Martin and Fulton as the weakest links moving forward.

I’d really be stoked if Houston made a play for RG, Schiff then drafted Cesar Ruiz to play Center. 2 moves like this immediately change the look of this OL....damn near could make it tough for OB and Devlin to screw it up.
So you're saying that OB's offense is predictable right? Damn positive this was an argument folks used against Kubiak too. Reality is you run & call plays with any offense for greater than 3 years in this league, anyone who watches you regularly can nail what you're gonna call or who you're gonna go to a sizeable amount of the time...much less a professional athlete who is paid to pick out your tendencies.

It's not a question of whether you know what's coming or not..It's can you stop it....Pretty sure we knew what was coming from KC's offense last month....didn't matter much b/c we couldn't stop it....
 

welsh texan

All Pro
So you're saying that OB's offense is predictable right? Damn positive this was an argument folks used against Kubiak too. Reality is you run & call plays with any offense for greater than 3 years in this league, anyone who watches you regularly can nail what you're gonna call or who you're gonna go to a sizeable amount of the time...much less a professional athlete who is paid to pick out your tendencies.

It's not a question of whether you know what's coming or not..It's can you stop it....Pretty sure we knew what was coming from KC's offense last month....didn't matter much b/c we couldn't stop it....
So what you are saying is, it isn’t that it’s obvious what we are going to call, it is that we aren’t good enough at executing it.
That is fine, still a shocking indictment on the coaching.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Is anyone prepared to entertain the idea that OB’s offensive scheme is so bad that defenses fully recognize what’s going to happen before the offense even breaks the huddle? If I comfortably sit in my chair and nail 80%+ of what OB’s doing on a given play....it probably handcuffs the OL even more than any of us think.

I still think the OL could use a talent bump and see Martin and Fulton as the weakest links moving forward.

I’d really be stoked if Houston made a play for RG, Schiff then drafted Cesar Ruiz to play Center. 2 moves like this immediately change the look of this OL....damn near could make it tough for OB and Devlin to screw it up.
Ruiz will still be only 20 years old when drafted.
 
Is anyone prepared to entertain the idea that OB’s offensive scheme is so bad that defenses fully recognize what’s going to happen before the offense even breaks the huddle? If I comfortably sit in my chair and nail 80%+ of what OB’s doing on a given play....it probably handcuffs the OL even more than any of us think.

I still think the OL could use a talent bump and see Martin and Fulton as the weakest links moving forward.

I’d really be stoked if Houston made a play for RG, Schiff then drafted Cesar Ruiz to play Center. 2 moves like this immediately change the look of this OL....damn near could make it tough for OB and Devlin to screw it up.
I don't understand why they did not go after his replacement this past draft. Martin's performance has only improved from bad to mediocre and he has been injured over his time here. His extension is not as bad as I initially thought since its basically a 2 year deal that would leave a $2.5M in dead money after 2020 with a $6M savings.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Is anyone prepared to entertain the idea that OB’s offensive scheme is so bad that defenses fully recognize what’s going to happen before the offense even breaks the huddle? If I comfortably sit in my chair and nail 80%+ of what OB’s doing on a given play....it probably handcuffs the OL even more than any of us think.

I still think the OL could use a talent bump and see Martin and Fulton as the weakest links moving forward.

I’d really be stoked if Houston made a play for RG, Schiff then drafted Cesar Ruiz to play Center. 2 moves like this immediately change the look of this OL....damn near could make it tough for OB and Devlin to screw it up.
you mean like this?

 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
So what you are saying is, it isn’t that it’s obvious what we are going to call, it is that we aren’t good enough at executing it.
That is fine, still a shocking indictment on the coaching.
Not really.

When XSF was out there whiffing on blocks and getting overpowered at the point of attack, everyone thought it was an "indictment" on Devlin as the o-line coach. 2 teams & coaching staffs later, Suafilo is still out there getting wrecked. Is it still an indictment on the coaching that they can't get him to execute his blocking assignments?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Not really.

When XSF was out there whiffing on blocks and getting overpowered at the point of attack, everyone thought it was an "indictment" on Devlin as the o-line coach. 2 teams & coaching staffs later, Suafilo is still out there getting wrecked. Is it still an indictment on the coaching that they can't get him to execute his blocking assignments?
It's an indictment on the GM who selected XSF.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
It’s predictable and very easy to stop. That’s the difference Mr. Tex.
The titans rode there predictability right up to the AFCCG game..everyone they faced in the playoffs knew they were going to run it with Henry & he still managed to put up 150 on Baltimore & damn near 200 on NE.

Being predictable is only a disadvantage if you're not good enough to consistently execute it over & over. It was easy to stop b/c the folks we have executing it weren't good enough to do it consistently. Hyde isn't a special back..neither is Duke. Have a feeling folks wouldn't be complaining about the predictability if we had Zeke, Barkley or McCafferey in the backfield. Run game would look a whole helluva lot better with those guys back there.
 

theCATALYST

"Fake" Fan
The titans rode there predictability right up to the AFCCG game..everyone they faced in the playoffs knew they were going to run it with Henry & he still managed to put up 150 on Baltimore & damn near 200 on NE.

Being predictable is only a disadvantage if you're not good enough to consistently execute it over & over. It was easy to stop b/c the folks we have executing it weren't good enough to do it consistently. Hyde isn't a special back..neither is Duke. Have a feeling folks wouldn't be complaining about the predictability if we had Zeke, Barkley or McCafferey in the backfield. Run game would look a whole helluva lot better with those guys back there.
Hyde posted good stats this season. I wonder how good our run game would have looked with a back like Zeke or McCafferey? Could it truly be a talent issue and not a scheme issue? Would a Le'Veon Bell improve our run game?
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Hyde posted good stats this season. I wonder how good our run game would have looked with a back like Zeke or McCafferey? Could it truly be a talent issue and not a scheme issue? Would a Le'Veon Bell improve our run game?
No question. all those guys are decisive runners, they pack a punch and are threats to do it all thus striking fear in the defense. Texans haven't had 1 of those since Arian.

But yeah, Over a 1000 yds, avg 4.4 a carry...For when & where we got him, all told Hyde had a good season for us...Main issue with him his vision isn't that great & we didn't get hardly any big break away plays. I can only remember him having like 2-3 runs of 25 yards or more all season. Contrast that with a RB like Barkley who breaks off 1 of those damn near every game. For that reason, no defenses really feared him.

His numbers are really a function of BoB staying committed to the run game.......& us being ahead or being within 1 score late in games.
 

theCATALYST

"Fake" Fan
No question. all those guys are decisive runners, they pack a punch and are threats to do it all thus striking fear in the defense. Texans haven't had 1 of those since Arian.

But yeah, Over a 1000 yds, avg 4.4 a carry...For when & where we got him, all told Hyde had a good season for us...Main issue with him his vision isn't that great & we didn't get hardly any big break away plays. I can only remember him having like 2-3 runs of 25 yards or more all season. Contrast that with a RB like Barkley who breaks off 1 of those damn near every game. For that reason, no defenses really feared him.

His numbers are really a function of BoB staying committed to the run game.......& us being ahead or being within 1 score late in games.
And with RB talent of that caliber, coupled with our QB's magic, the things it would open up in our passing game. I like the thought of that.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
I like Hyde, & if we had a better o-line I think he could do damage..he runs hard. He's just a guy that needs everything right around him to get the most out of him.
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
No question. all those guys are decisive runners, they pack a punch and are threats to do it all thus striking fear in the defense. Texans haven't had 1 of those since Arian.

But yeah, Over a 1000 yds, avg 4.4 a carry...For when & where we got him, all told Hyde had a good season for us...Main issue with him his vision isn't that great & we didn't get hardly any big break away plays. I can only remember him having like 2-3 runs of 25 yards or more all season. Contrast that with a RB like Barkley who breaks off 1 of those damn near every game. For that reason, no defenses really feared him.

His numbers are really a function of BoB staying committed to the run game.......& us being ahead or being within 1 score late in games.
Might want to re-think that comparison...at least as it relates to big running plays.
Hyde was 5th in the NFL with 8 rushes of 20+ - Tied with Barkley. He was 4th with 4 for 40+ - also tied with Barkley.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
The titans rode there predictability right up to the AFCCG game..everyone they faced in the playoffs knew they were going to run it with Henry & he still managed to put up 150 on Baltimore & damn near 200 on NE.

Being predictable is only a disadvantage if you're not good enough to consistently execute it over & over. It was easy to stop b/c the folks we have executing it weren't good enough to do it consistently. Hyde isn't a special back..neither is Duke. Have a feeling folks wouldn't be complaining about the predictability if we had Zeke, Barkley or McCafferey in the backfield. Run game would look a whole helluva lot better with those guys back there.
I think the RB's did a really respectable job in spite of the fact they were poorly schemed for in OB's offense and didn't have a solid OL to perform behind. With the skill position talent.....a better OC and OL yields much better results with both Hyde and Johnson.

The best first move.....sign Scherff this season and wait until 2021 to re-sign Tunsil which would be after the new budgets are announced. The next move would be to draft C, Cesar Ruiz who definitely upgrades the position over incumbent Martin.

As for OC, that falls smack dab in Cal's lap. The Texans need a new OC in the worst way. OB is not an OC and that's a fact. He lacks feel for the game and the ability to adjust on the fly. This will continue to handicap all facets of the Texans offense.

On a side note.....I'd also sign Emanual Sanders who should be commanding about 9M for a season and maybe a team gets him slightly cheaper on a 2 year deal that is mostly guaranteed. If Fuller could stay healthy......I'd really like to see more than a few formations that featured Fuller as WR1, Sanders as WR2 and Hopkins as SWR. Hopkins would face little to no double teams and should have unlimited mis-matches.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Might want to re-think that comparison...at least as it relates to big running plays.
Hyde was 5th in the NFL with 8 rushes of 20+ - Tied with Barkley. He was 4th with 4 for 40+ - also tied with Barkley.
I stand corrected...guess I’m mixing in Barkley’s big plays in the passing game as well. Regardless though. 1 of those guys the defense was keying in, the other was not.
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
I stand corrected...guess I’m mixing in Barkley’s big plays in the passing game as well. Regardless though. 1 of those guys the defense was keying in, the other was not.
Don't get me wrong, I'd swap for Saquon in a heartbeat...the man is a beast, but O'Brien (the GM) did pretty damn well with our RB tandem. We ended up better than we'd been with Miller per carry which was a pleasant surprise.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Don't get me wrong, I'd swap for Saquon in a heartbeat...the man is a beast, but O'Brien (the GM) did pretty damn well with our RB tandem. We ended up better than we'd been with Miller per carry which was a pleasant surprise.
Would you bring Miller back on a vet min contract?

Getting back on topic, I expect the OL to show much improvement next yr as the rookies have a full offseason to work with NFL trainers and Tunsil has a full TC.
 

JamTex

Hall Of Fame Texans Fan!
Bottom line. As long as Mike Devlin is the offensive line coach, the o-line will suck. No matter the quality of players that are plugged in, Devlin can't coach them. He's completely clueless. Just get used to bad o-line play as long as Devlin is on the job. He has no idea how to teach discipline in play, foot work, hand play, push or protection.
Until he's gone, Watson will have to run for his life and suffer sacks. Also, no matter the running back, he'll have no real lanes to run through and will continue to have to manufacture yards out of nothing.
I have no faith in Devlin being able to improve any aspect of o-line play.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Hyde posted good stats this season. I wonder how good our run game would have looked with a back like Zeke or McCafferey? Could it truly be a talent issue and not a scheme issue? Would a Le'Veon Bell improve our run game?
Yes, but there are not many Le'Veon Bell's available. Fortunately there are Hyde type running backs available In later rounds. Now whether they will translate to the NFL is another question.
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
Would you bring Miller back on a vet min contract?

Getting back on topic, I expect the OL to show much improvement next yr as the rookies have a full offseason to work with NFL trainers and Tunsil has a full TC.
I would, if only for depth. I doubt he'd take it though.

I too expect the OL to improve, if for no other reason than getting Howard and Scharping back in the mix. Not worried about Tunsil at all.
 

KTex

Noob
I like the XSF pick, but wanted to trade back up into the 2nd for Jimmy G. We almost didn't have to.....almost.
XSF was a good pick who didn't work out. Sometimes, everything points toward a player being successful in the NFL, and he just isn't. I don't remember anything in his scouting report that pointed toward failure.

Same thing happened w/ Travis Johnson, a beast of a DT we took in 05. Every sign pointed toward him being a beast in the NFL. I don't know what went wrong, but he simply didn't work out.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
XSF was a good pick who didn't work out. Sometimes, everything points toward a player being successful in the NFL, and he just isn't. I don't remember anything in his scouting report that pointed toward failure.

Same thing happened w/ Travis Johnson, a beast of a DT we took in 05. Every sign pointed toward him being a beast in the NFL. I don't know what went wrong, but he simply didn't work out.
Too many of these not working outs should get a GM fired.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
All that investment and the OL is still mediocre at best.

Huge indictment of O'Brien who has his handpicked guys there and has his own scheme implemented.
There were 2 rookies on the OL and one of them was hurt for about half the yr. The OL hasn't come close to reaching its full potential but the potential is there.

Go back and look at the Chiefs game, the pass pro wasn't bad.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
There were 2 rookies on the OL and one of them was hurt for about half the yr. The OL hasn't come close to reaching its full potential but the potential is there.

Go back and look at the Chiefs game, the pass pro wasn't bad.
Here come the excuses. Do you have 6 years worth?
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I don't think so. Looking at what he's done since he left(backup type in DALLAS), it appears there's something missing in his makeup. He's grossly inconsistent, just as he was here.
Fair enough. Then it was just a bad pick
 

KTex

Noob
Fair enough. Then it was just a bad pick
More like a decent pick that didn't work out. I didn't see any signs on his scouting report that pointed toward him not being a quality NFL starter. He earned all PAC 12 honors his last two years. He was called a natural, with excellent quickness and power. There really were no warning signs that I can find.
 

justmy2cents

Rookie
Contributor's Club
I was in favor of the pick. Every draft site that I had access to, rated him as a 2nd round pick. He was just an anomaly .... in the same vein as the big running back from Texas. Kinda' like the DB that blossomed into a great player, and then we didn't keep him !
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I don't think so. Looking at what he's done since he left(backup type in DALLAS), it appears there's something missing in his makeup. He's grossly inconsistent, just as he was here.
Yes some picks pan out and some that don’t. X just didn’t work out. But right now after 6 years of data, Delvin and O’Brien is struggling to deliver and develop their plan/scheme.
 


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