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State of the Black QB

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maverick512000

Hall of Fame
Sad that this is still a thing. I don't care if Watson is black, white, brown or purple. I care that he can ball better than any QB we have ever had. Likewise I don't care that Watt is white, I care that, in his prime at least, he made QBs scared to death of him. Give me the best team with the best players and I don't care what they look like or where they came from I just want them to play football.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator
Staff member
I was recently telling my 17 yo son about Warren Moon and his experiences with the Oilers. We were talking about the best QBs in Houston pro football history, and obviously Moon is at the top of that list (for now. . .Watson is moving up fast!).

He asked "what's the big deal about a black QB?". It made me smile, because many in the younger generations do not harbor the stupidity and bigotry that held so many great athletes back. But, at the same time, it's important to remember the past and learn from it.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
I think its slowly dying off with the way the college game has infiltrated the NFL, but its still clearly a thing with some of the older folks people in power in the NFL.i.e. the owners.
 

Texazan

Our HOF 34
I think its slowly dying off with the way the college game has infiltrated the NFL, but its still clearly a thing with some of the older folks people in power in the NFL.i.e. the owners.
It'll always be a "thing" in the media because it encites continuing conversation of race which of course sells. One of those "if it bleeds it leads" topics.

One side says we need to talk about it, conversation is good I get it, but the other side of that coin is if we would just stop looking at race in everything we may actually get past it. I hope our next generation is moving past it but some of the social media makes me think otherwise.....
 

maverick512000

Hall of Fame
I think its slowly dying off with the way the college game has infiltrated the NFL, but its still clearly a thing with some of the older folks people in power in the NFL.i.e. the owners.
Which owners would that be? The closest in recent memory I can think of where owners are blackballing someone is Kapernick but that has more to do with his political stance and how embarrassed the owners felt than it did his skin color. Don't think it would matter if he was white or black still think he would be treated the same. You are seeing players of all races getting big money these days, the deciding factor seems to be can you play or at least can you convince some idiot with a checkbook that you can play.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Yeah its still a thing. The allure of these guys' athleticism at the qb position has coaches & pundits alike speculating and even declaring that these guys should play something other than qb in the NFL & they still do get labeled as "dual threat" b/c of that. They also are always forced to come out and state that they only want to play qb on the next level & nothing else. Lamar Jackson & Kyler Murray are the latest examples of that.

Manziel, Mitch Trubisky......Daniel Jones....all very athletic guys who made lots of plays with their athleticism during college .....neither one of them had to declare that they only wanted to play qb on the next level..b/c its never a thought that comes across their minds when it comes to white athletic qbs.
 
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Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Which owners would that be? The closest in recent memory I can think of where owners are blackballing someone is Kapernick but that has more to do with his political stance and how embarrassed the owners felt than it did his skin color. Don't think it would matter if he was white or black still think he would be treated the same. You are seeing players of all races getting big money these days, the deciding factor seems to be can you play or at least can you convince some idiot with a checkbook that you can play.
Go to the bears message board pre 2017 draft. See what fans are saying about Trubisky vs. Watson. A few there wanted Watson. But the stigma of him being a "running qb" or a "dual threat" qb is what many cited as a strike against him & why they wanted Trubisky who was thought to be more of a "pocket passer" & less likely to get hurt running...even though Trubisky ran it quite a bit his last year as well.....DW4 was just better at it lol. There were also questions about whether the system DW4 ran was "simplified" for him whereas Trubisky had supposedly played in a more "pro-style offense and b/c of that, he was thought to be further along as a passer than DW4 was........even though DW4's passing numbers were much better than Trubisky's. Why those questions even coming up when 1 guy has 2 great years of production & accolades & the other has 1 year of pretty good production is the question you need to ask.

& if fans are citing this, you bet your ass the Bears front office had this in mind & many other front office personnel did as well. We already know the ESPN & NFL Network analysts had these as strikes against DW4 as well b/c its all over their analysis of him. Fact is, all of that crap was unsubstantiated from day 1 & was based on the fact that he as a black qb who was just as electrifying as runner as he was as a passer & Dude could just play no matter what the scheme was. It's like Dobbs said in the video, Folks dont really put together that its more of the scheme that is put in to help the team win the most games than that players' actual best skill.
 

Lucky

Moderator
Staff member
It'll always be a "thing" in the media because it encites continuing conversation of race which of course sells.
We can switch the topic to State of the black Head Coach or GM if you feel that’s more relevant.
 

DanielTx

Veteran
Great post. Glad to see the game changing for the better. Though, im young and 23. I have the up most respect for guys like Randall Cunningham and Warren Moon. The guys who opened the door for the deshauns, cams and mahomes. Its still a issue in todays age and you saw it with the Bears drafting an unproven prospect over accomplished resumes. The game is in good hands though.
 

maverick512000

Hall of Fame
Yeah its still a thing. The allure of these guys' athleticism at the qb position has coaches & pundits alike speculating and even declaring that these guys should play something other than qb in the NFL & they still do get labeled as "dual threat" b/c of that. They also are always forced to come out and state that they only want to play qb on the next level & nothing else. Lamar Jackson & Kyler Murray are the latest examples of that.

Manziel, Mitch Trubisky......Daniel Jones....all very athletic guys who made lots of plays with their athleticism during college .....neither one of them had to declare that they only wanted to play qb on the next level..b/c its never a question with qbs.
Huh? Since when was being called a duel threat QB an insult? Just about every team out there with a pocket passer except NO, GB and NE wishes their QB was a duel threat and even those guys are having to make more plays with their legs now. Also where did you get this about these guys having to say they only want to play QB? I never heard anyone talk about Jackson or Murray as anything other than QBs. There are questions about how good they are as QBs but every QB gets asked that. The only person that I can recall people saying should play something other than QB is Cam Newton and yeah I've said myself he is a RB that happens to have a decent arm.

No one thought Mahomes or Watson were going to be anything except QBs. Wilson had questions because of his size but not because of his skin color. Everyone thought RG3 would be the next great QB, no one thought he should play anything else even after he was shown to be a bust. Manziel broke records in college so yeah no one questioned whether he would be a QB or not and Trubisky had managed to string together a short but impressive resume as a QB that convinced the Bears to by into it.

I think you are reading into things that aren't there or you are finding some fringe reports saying these things. None of the serious scouting reports ever listed these guys as anything but QBs. How good they would be at QB that's a whole different question.
 

Double Barrel

Moderator
Staff member
Watson's perspective at the 6:40 mark should be directed at some folks on this board as it pertains to questioning his intelligence. He will ultimately make that perspective (of questioning his intelligence) look foolish in hindsight.

Yeah its still a thing. The allure of these guys' athleticism at the qb position has coaches & pundits alike speculating and even declaring that these guys should play something other than qb in the NFL & they still do get labeled as "dual threat" b/c of that. They also are always forced to come out and state that they only want to play qb on the next level & nothing else. Lamar Jackson & Kyler Murray are the latest examples of that.

Manziel, Mitch Trubisky......Daniel Jones....all very athletic guys who made lots of plays with their athleticism during college .....neither one of them had to declare that they only wanted to play qb on the next level..b/c its never a thought that comes across their minds when it comes to white athletic qbs.
Really good point. While social perspectives are slowly evolving beyond, there are plenty of 'old school' coaches, front office, and scouts that still harbor the racial bias.

Like you said, white athletic QBs don't have to experience the same level of doubt and double-standard. I remember just this past offseason many questions about Lamar Jackson, a "RB playing QB" (as the critics said). He's shut that down with his play, but it should even be considered viable criticism. But yet Baker Mayfield was getting all the unconditional praise as the 'next big thing', even though he hadn't proven any more than Jackson. Baker has been a bust, while Jackson is in the running for MVP (no pun intended).
 

maverick512000

Hall of Fame
Great post. Glad to see the game changing for the better. Though, im young and 23. I have the up most respect for guys like Randall Cunningham and Warren Moon. The guys who opened the door for the deshauns, cams and mahomes. Its still a issue in todays age and you saw it with the Bears drafting an unproven prospect over accomplished resumes. The game is in good hands though.
Bears had nothing to do with skin color and everything to do with them buying into the hype because the Bears wouldn't know a good QB if one walked up and kicked them is the ass. Trubisky on paper looked as good as Watson and Mahomes and there were serious questions about both of them. Watson if he had the arm to be an NFL QB and Mahomes didn't get added to the mix really till after he blew people away at the combine. Before that the conversation was Watson and Trubisky and Trubisky, again on paper, had more of the measurables than Watson did.
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
Fact is, all of that crap was unsubstantiated from day 1 & was based on the fact that he as a black qb who was just as electrifying as runner as he was as a passer & Dude could just play no matter what the scheme was.
I rate this a meh with a capital M. There's always tons of unsubstantiated stuff about QBs. I've heard crap about "system QBs" and guys who ran "spread offense" as being questionable fits in the NFL. (Case Keenum comes to mind) I wanted Watson for one reason alone...he was the QB who shone brightest under the biggest lights. I didn't think the NFL was going to scare him at all.

Like you said, white athletic QBs don't have to experience the same level of doubt and double-standard. I remember just this past offseason many questions about Lamar Jackson, a "RB playing QB" (as the critics said). He's shut that down with his play, but it should even be considered viable criticism. But yet Baker Mayfield was getting all the unconditional praise as the 'next big thing', even though he hadn't proven any more than Jackson. Baker has been a bust, while Jackson is in the running for MVP (no pun intended).
To a point. Tim Tebow certainly comes to mind. He was athletic as all hell, but whether his game would traslate worth a damn to the NFL was in question from Day 1. The same worry (as well as massive character concerns) applied to Manziel.

I'm not saying a there aren't teams that might give an added benefit of the doubt to a White QB candidate over a Black one, I'm saying that those instances are much fewer and far between than they've ever been.
 

maverick512000

Hall of Fame
Go to the bears message board pre 2017 draft. See what fans are saying about Trubisky vs. Watson. A few there wanted Watson. But the stigma of him being a "running qb" or a "dual threat" qb is what many cited as a strike against him & why they wanted Trubisky who was thought to be more of a "pocket passer" & less likely to get hurt running...even though Trubisky ran it quite a bit his last year as well.....DW4 was just better at it lol. There were also questions about whether the system DW4 ran was "simplified" for him whereas Trubisky had supposedly played in a more "pro-style offense and b/c of that, he was thought to be further along as a passer than DW4 was........even though DW4's passing numbers were much better than Trubisky's. Why those questions even coming up when 1 guy has 2 great years of production & accolades & the other has 1 year of pretty good production is the question you need to ask.

& if fans are citing this, you bet your ass the Bears front office had this in mind & many other front office personnel did as well. We already know the ESPN & NFL Network analysts had these as strikes against DW4 as well b/c its all over their analysis of him. Fact is, all of that crap was unsubstantiated from day 1 & was based on the fact that he as a black qb who was just as electrifying as runner as he was as a passer & Dude could just play no matter what the scheme was. It's like Dobbs said in the video, Folks dont really put together that its more of the scheme that is put in to help the team win the most games than that players' actual best skill.
Well first you said owners but then use fan posts to support your argument. If we are going to use that then every team, including this one, has got stupid people saying stupid things. Second no you can't say "if fans are citing this, you bet your ass the Bears front office had this in mind & many other front office personnel did as well" we have a 362 page Fire thread that shows how much fan opinion gets taken into account.

Also duel threat QBs do get hurt more often, hell Watson got hurt his first season. They are also harder for an Oline to protect because they are all over the field. The flip side is that they are harder for defenses to contain, you take the good with the bad. Most fans just look at highlight reels and scouting reports when it comes draft time and all of those showed Trubisky as a Drew Brees or Payton Manning style pocket passer. They don't go watch old games to see how much someone actually ran the ball. If we are going to be asking questions and comparing college records why did Mahomes get taken before Watson when he hadn't done much, if anything, more than Trubisky?

As far as a simplified system I seem to recall a discussion on here not to long ago about the EP system having to be changed to a more Watson friendly system.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Bears had nothing to do with skin color and everything to do with them buying into the hype because the Bears wouldn't know a good QB if one walked up and kicked them is the ass. Trubisky on paper looked as good as Watson and Mahomes and there were serious questions about both of them. Watson if he had the arm to be an NFL QB and Mahomes didn't get added to the mix really till after he blew people away at the combine. Before that the conversation was Watson and Trubisky and Trubisky, again on paper, had more of the measurables than Watson did.
Lol no. Trubisky & DW4 from a measurables standpoint were vitually IDENTICAL. Both 6'2..both with 32-33 arm length, both with 9.5 -9.75 hand size...both 222 lbs. The only real difference between them is production on the field (1 yr. vs. 2 yrs), accolades........which going off that DW4 wins hands down. The only other major difference was skin color & how each guy went about their business on the field. DW4 ran a little more 156 attempts his last year, Trubisky 93....& had more production as a result....so he gets labeled the "dual threat" qb... Its even in their scouting reports in the NFL. If you pay attention, Trubisky's weaknesses center more around mechanical issues that can be fixed. With DW4, they legit question his decision making and intelligence.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/deshaun-watson?id=2558063


Its bad to be considered a "dual threat" qb, b/c the insinuation is that you can't pass it effectively enough to be considered a qb who can play from the pocket; In their minds you have to be able to run to be as effective playing the position....There's big time money differences there for the players. And you already know a position such as the qb, they want you to be around as long as possible...and a qb that runs alot they feel just doesn't provide that long term security they would like for an asset they may have to drop 100's of millions of dollars on in the future.
 
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Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Well first you said owners but then use fan posts to support your argument. If we are going to use that then every team, including this one, has got stupid people saying stupid things. Second no you can't say "if fans are citing this, you bet your ass the Bears front office had this in mind & many other front office personnel did as well" we have a 362 page Fire thread that shows how much fan opinion gets taken into account.

Also duel threat QBs do get hurt more often, hell Watson got hurt his first season. They are also harder for an Oline to protect because they are all over the field. The flip side is that they are harder for defenses to contain, you take the good with the bad. Most fans just look at highlight reels and scouting reports when it comes draft time and all of those showed Trubisky as a Drew Brees or Payton Manning style pocket passer. They don't go watch old games to see how much someone actually ran the ball. If we are going to be asking questions and comparing college records why did Mahomes get taken before Watson when he hadn't done much, if anything, more than Trubisky?

As far as a simplified system I seem to recall a discussion on here not to long ago about the EP system having to be changed to a more Watson friendly system.
So you don't think that these owners lean on GM's and HC's on who they want to see be brought in to play the 1 position that's going to make or break their franchise for the next 4-5 years? Ok. your opinion. We're not talking about the practicality of it all. We're talking about what's actually been shown to be the case.

As for your other assertion about not hearing "nothing" about Lamar Jackson having to declare only wanting to play qb...

"I'm strictly a quarterback," the former Louisville star and Heisman Trophy winner said Friday at the NFL Scouting Combine. "Whoever likes me at quarterback, that's where I'm going."
Earlier in the day, NFL Network reported that multiple teams had asked Jackson to work out as a wide receiver this week at Lucas Oil Stadium. But hours later, Jackson said he was "shocked" by the news because "no teams have asked me to play wide receiver. I don't even know where [the report] came from."
The polarizing prospect confirmed he will throw at the combine (unlike Southern Cal quarterback Sam Darnold) but won't run the 40-yard dash. "I've just got to show off my arm 'cause that's where they're doubting me," Jackson said, joking that he feels "like [New Orleans's] Drew Brees" after widening his throwing stance.

Jackson was good-natured about the criticism of his game, but he made it clear during his 15-minute podium session that he has no intention of fulfilling any request to work out at a different position or being anything but a signal caller in the NFL.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ct-lamar-jackson-nfl-quarterback-20180303-story.html

Don't see how you couldn't hear that though. It's literally a talking point in the lead up to the draft every time 1 of these uber athletic black qbs comes out.
 

maverick512000

Hall of Fame
Lol no. Trubisky & DW4 from a measurables standpoint were vitually IDENTICAL. Both 6'2..both with 32-33 arm length, both with 9.5 -9.75 hand size...both 222 lbs. The only real difference between them is production on the field (1 yr. vs. 2 yrs), accolades........which going off that DW4 wins hands down. The only other major difference was skin color & how each guy went about their business on the field. DW4 ran a little more 156 attempts his last year, Trubisky 93....& had more production as a result....so he gets labeled the "dual threat" qb... Its even in their scouting reports in the NFL. If you pay attention, Trubisky's weaknesses center more around mechanical issues that can be fixed. With DW4, they legit question his decision making and intelligence.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/deshaun-watson?id=2558063


Its bad to be considered a "dual threat" qb, b/c the insinuation is that you can't pass it effectively enough to be considered a qb who can play from the pocket. You have to be able to run to be as effective playing the position. And you already know a position such as the qb, they want you to be around as long as possible...and a qb that runs alot they feel just doesn't provide that long term security that an asset they may have to drop 100's of millions of dollars on in the future.
I stand corrected on their measurables, you're correct they are as close as you can come. That being said reading over their "weaknesses" the biggest knock against Watson was that he was hot and cold in accuracy and that the offense was designed so that he doesn't have to make full field reads. That's pretty close to what even today we say his issues are. You read Trubisky's weaknesses and they are more that you would think an NFL level coach could fix. Things like pocket awareness and floating the ball out of bounds.

Look we can debate all day as to why the Bears took Trubisky over Watson and Mahomes and never know who's right. You think skin color had more to do it it, I think the Bears are just crap at judging QBs and went with the QB with the most hype. At the end of the day though it doesn't matter. Bears are the laughing stock of the NFL for that draft and us and the Chiefs won that draft and no one has ever questioned if Watson and Mahomes should be anything but QBs. Lets just point and laugh at the hapless Chicago Bears.

:lol:
 

maverick512000

Hall of Fame
So you don't think that these owners lean on GM's and HC's on who they want to see be brought in to play the 1 position that's going to make or break their franchise for the next 4-5 years? Ok. your opinion. We're not talking about the practicality of it all. We're talking about what's actually been shown to be the case.

As for your other assertion about not hearing "nothing" about Lamar Jackson having to declare only wanting to play qb...



https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ct-lamar-jackson-nfl-quarterback-20180303-story.html

Don't see how you couldn't hear that though. It's literally a talking point in the lead up to the draft every time 1 of these uber athletic black qbs comes out.
Dude you just made my point for me. Jackson himself said that the reports were false and no one had asked him to try out as anything but a QB. Him saying he's strictly a QB wasn't targeted at the teams it was targeted at the reports. Now if you want to make a case that many of these reports are stupid then I agree with you, I've thought the media was stupid for over 20 years now but that doesn't mean anyone with the ability to make a decision actually thinks or asks that.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
To a point. Tim Tebow certainly comes to mind. He was athletic as all hell, but whether his game would traslate worth a damn to the NFL was in question from Day 1. The same worry (as well as massive character concerns) applied to Manziel.

I'm not saying a there aren't teams that might give an added benefit of the doubt to a White QB candidate over a Black one, I'm saying that those instances are much fewer and far between than they've ever been.
Tim Tebow isn't in the same category of what we're talking about b/c at no point in his college career did he show to be a proficient passer like a DW4, Lamar Jackson or even a guy like Taj Boyd who went in the damn 6th round. Tebow won the Heisman throwing for just over 3000 yds.......at a time when college offenses were routinely putting up Tecmo Bowl passing numbers....and that 3200 yards was his high watermark as a passer! Also, his deficiencies as a passer could CLEARLY be seen on tape...So yes he was questioned, but it was legitimate & he was never labeled as a dual threat qb...just a qb who couldn't pass...which was accurate.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Dude you just made my point for me. Jackson himself said that the reports were false and no one had asked him to try out as anything but a QB. Him saying he's strictly a QB wasn't targeted at the teams it was targeted at the reports. Now if you want to make a case that many of these reports are stupid then I agree with you, I've thought the media was stupid for over 20 years now but that doesn't mean anyone with the ability to make a decision actually thinks or asks that.
Agreed, & yet that stigma still followed him & even heated up again this year when the Ravens announced they were revamping the offense. Bottom line is, These guys' abilities to play the position get questioned every time they don't play the game how it has traditionally been played...how everyone likes to see it get played & there's far less tolerance for them than there is for their counterparts.......Save for the travesty that is Jameis Winston that is.
 

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
Tim Tebow isn't in the same category of what we're talking about b/c at no point in his college career did he show to be a proficient passer like a DW4, Lamar Jackson or even a guy like Taj Boyd who went in the damn 6th round. Tebow won the Heisman throwing for just over 3000 yds.......at a time when college offenses were routinely putting up Tecmo Bowl passing numbers....and that 3200 yards was his high watermark as a passer! Also, his deficiencies as a passer could CLEARLY be seen on tape...So yes he was questioned, but it was legitimate & he was never labeled as a dual threat qb...just a qb who couldn't pass...which was accurate.
Really? I'd strongly suggest Googling "Tim Tebow dual threat qb" and let me know how that works out. It's not like it was some sort of secret. It was his bread-and-butter.

As for not in the same category? -

He's still #5 all time in SEC passing TDs...one behind Peyton Manning. He's #3 in single-season rushing TDs...two spots ahead of Manziel. There's others, but you get the point.

Career completion percentage in college:

Tim Tebow - 66.4
Deshaun Watson - 67.4
Lamar Jackson - 57.0

Career Y/A in college:

Tim Tebow - 9.3
Deshaun Watson - 8.4
Lamar Jackson - 8.3

Career Passing TDs in college:

Tim Tebow - 88
Deshaun Watson - 90
Lamar Jackson - 69

Passing Efficiency Rating:

Tim Tebow - 170.8
Deshaun Watson - 157.5
Lamar Jackson - 142.9


What proficiency were you looking for again? Pretty amazing for "a QB who couldn't pass".
 

Double Barrel

Moderator
Staff member
To a point. Tim Tebow certainly comes to mind. He was athletic as all hell, but whether his game would traslate worth a damn to the NFL was in question from Day 1. The same worry (as well as massive character concerns) applied to Manziel.

I'm not saying a there aren't teams that might give an added benefit of the doubt to a White QB candidate over a Black one, I'm saying that those instances are much fewer and far between than they've ever been.
Tebow was such a horrible passer that any analyst would completely lose credibility to try to paint a narrative that he was anything other than an "athletic QB".

The stigma pertaining to this thread's subject is fading away, albeit slowly. But it still persists in an almost subversive sort of way. Which is why this documentary is being made.

As far as a simplified system I seem to recall a discussion on here not to long ago about the EP system having to be changed to a more Watson friendly system.
That's all it was, a discussion of assumptions, opinions, and speculations.

Where is any credible source to back up that claim? This is the inherent difference between forum conversations and sports talk radio. We can call for credible sources in the forum where sports talk radio is just callers spouting opinions and agenda-driven nonsense.

Clint Stoerner has been a solid addition to 610 AM, and he's saying the exact opposite of this "simplified offense" with Watson. He's got tape study to back it up, along with actual experience as an NFL QB.

O'Brien and Watson has certainly never said anything remotely close to confirming this simplified offense.

I hate that this is even a topic for discussion. Why does it have to be the white qb, or the balck qb? Or the red qb or the yellow qb? How about the great young qb's in the league? Or the not so great :D
It does suck, but it is part of the fabric of NFL history. I am hopeful that in another couple of decades it will be an footnote of history but no longer part of the current reality.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Really? I'd strongly suggest Googling "Tim Tebow dual threat qb" and let me know how that works out. It's not like it was some sort of secret. It was his bread-and-butter.

As for not in the same category? -

He's still #5 all time in SEC passing TDs...one behind Peyton Manning. He's #3 in single-season rushing TDs...two spots ahead of Manziel. There's others, but you get the point.

Career completion percentage in college:

Tim Tebow - 66.4
Deshaun Watson - 67.4
Lamar Jackson - 57.0

Career Y/A in college:

Tim Tebow - 9.3
Deshaun Watson - 8.4
Lamar Jackson - 8.3

Career Passing TDs in college:

Tim Tebow - 88
Deshaun Watson - 90
Lamar Jackson - 69

Passing Efficiency Rating:

Tim Tebow - 170.8
Deshaun Watson - 157.5
Lamar Jackson - 142.9


What proficiency were you looking for again? Pretty amazing for "a QB who couldn't pass".
You’re kinda proving my point. Tebows numbers are bolstered by the fact that he played 4 full years and it really took him 3 Full years as the starter to even come close to the numbers that DW4 was able to amass playing in only 2.5 years.

Both Dw4 and Jackson also put the ball in the air WAY more than Tebow ever did. DW4 for instance had damn near as many or more completions in both his last 2 years than Tebow ever even attempted to pass in any 1 year he was a full time starter...which is closer to what you would see from a pro qb.

Also, 3200 yds total passing even in Urban Meyer’s gimmicky ball control offense isn’t impressive. To put that in perspective, Alex Smith put up similar number 4 years prior under Meyer..(#1 overall)...JT Barrett another Meyer qb put up close to the same numbers AS A FRESHMAN...and put up similar numbers in 2 other years. even he had shown to be a more proficient passer than Tebow ever was...where’d he go in the draft though? Nowhere.

Both DW4 and Jackson were much more proven as passers than Tebow ever was....but of the 3, who was drafted higher in their respective drafts?
 
I remember when famous political pundit Rush Limbaugh nearly got fired but instead quit his brief stint on ESPN for his comments on Donovan McNabb and black quarterbacks in general.

"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well,'' Limbaugh said. "There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

http://www.espn.com/gen/news/2003/1001/1628537.html

It seems we have come a long way since that time. I think for the most part we are past all the black quarterback nonsense and we simply see quarterbacks who are good or bad with no regard to skin color.
 
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ATXtexanfan

Site Contributor
State of the black qb?
Is really good......
Down right positive.
Black or white or brown or purple there still isn't enough to field a 32 team league.
Amazing.......
 
I hate that this is even a topic for discussion. Why does it have to be the white qb, or the balck qb? Or the red qb or the yellow qb? How about the great young qb's in the league? Or the not so great :D
This is America. Everything has to do with race at some point. Then again, that is nature of Human Beings to focus on the differences.
 
For those who do not know, Mahomes is blessed with the "best" of two worlds.............his father is black............his mother is white..................none of this should make any difference to anyone when you are supposed to honestly evaluate his role as an NFL QB.
Well, that didn't necessarily help Barack Obama when he was in office......lol.
 
You’re kinda proving my point. Tebows numbers are bolstered by the fact that he played 4 full years and it really took him 3 Full years as the starter to even come close to the numbers that DW4 was able to amass playing in only 2.5 years.

Both Dw4 and Jackson also put the ball in the air WAY more than Tebow ever did. DW4 for instance had damn near as many or more completions in both his last 2 years than Tebow ever even attempted to pass in any 1 year he was a full time starter...which is closer to what you would see from a pro qb.

Also, 3200 yds total passing even in Urban Meyer’s gimmicky ball control offense isn’t impressive. To put that in perspective, Alex Smith put up similar number 4 years prior under Meyer..(#1 overall)...JT Barrett another Meyer qb put up close to the same numbers AS A FRESHMAN...and put up similar numbers in 2 other years. even he had shown to be a more proficient passer than Tebow ever was...where’d he go in the draft though? Nowhere.

Both DW4 and Jackson were much more proven as passers than Tebow ever was....but of the 3, who was drafted higher in their respective drafts?
Tebow went in 25th in round 1, Jackson #32, and Watson #12
 

austins23

Hall of Fame
Did anyone see the Earl Campbell interview where he was saying the "only way the Longhorns start winning again is with a black QB"? I'm paraphrasing of course.

Not sure this fits in with the OP's initial post, but thought it was interesting. Not trying to stir the pot, honestly. I'm in the "I don't care what color you are" camp. If you can play, you can play. And Watson can play better than most.
 
Tebow was such a horrible passer that any analyst would completely lose credibility to try to paint a narrative that he was anything other than an "athletic QB".

The stigma pertaining to this thread's subject is fading away, albeit slowly. But it still persists in an almost subversive sort of way. Which is why this documentary is being made.



That's all it was, a discussion of assumptions, opinions, and speculations.

Where is any credible source to back up that claim? This is the inherent difference between forum conversations and sports talk radio. We can call for credible sources in the forum where sports talk radio is just callers spouting opinions and agenda-driven nonsense.

Clint Stoerner has been a solid addition to 610 AM, and he's saying the exact opposite of this "simplified offense" with Watson. He's got tape study to back it up, along with actual experience as an NFL QB.

O'Brien and Watson has certainly never said anything remotely close to confirming this simplified offense.



It does suck, but it is part of the fabric of NFL history. I am hopeful that in another couple of decades it will be an footnote of history but no longer part of the current reality.
O'Brien did say he simplified certain things recently. I think B'OB decided to go back to what he was doing the first 7 Watson starts and expand on that from what Watson has learned since then. What you see now is O'Brien maximizing Watson talents using the Read Option elements, putting the game in Watson's hands. Just because you simplify things, doesn't mean the QB can't handle the offense. I think he simplified things OTHERS on the offense were doing. The WR/TE routes have changed. The blocking schemes have changed. What the RBs are doing has changed.
Watson is still making multiple reads, however, you do notice how fast he moving to the check down option and getting the ball out of his hands.
 

Seegara

Hall of Fame
Doesn't matter whether you're black, white, or green as long as you don't play football with your mouth.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Straight up , I don't care what color a person is - That's the last thing that should define an individual.

Are you a good person - That matters.

Are you good at what you do - That matters.

There's plenty of legit reasons to like people / individuals or not. Race …. aint one of them.

This thread will probably devolve into something that belongs in the NSZ ...
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I was recently telling my 17 yo son about Warren Moon and his experiences with the Oilers. We were talking about the best QBs in Houston pro football history, and obviously Moon is at the top of that list (for now. . .Watson is moving up fast!).

He asked "what's the big deal about a black QB?". It made me smile, because many in the younger generations do not harbor the stupidity and bigotry that held so many great athletes back. But, at the same time, it's important to remember the past and learn from it.

I've had similar things happen like that with my kids …. hell , mine grew up in a cul de sac that was like a melting pot …. white , black , Hispanic , indian , native American , Cuban , Argentinean , Vietnamese and Korean kids all playing together pretty much every day , they don't know the hate that we saw as kids.

I feel pretty fortunate to have picked this spot to call home …
 

maverick512000

Hall of Fame
Straight up , I don't care what color a person is - That's the last thing that should define an individual.

Are you a good person - That matters.

Are you good at what you do - That matters.

There's plenty of legit reasons to like people / individuals or not. Race …. aint one of them.

This thread will probably devolve into something that belongs in the NSZ ...
Actually I’ve been impressed with not only how civil a conversation it’s been but how on topic as well. Hell of a far sight better than any “debate” you see on TV.
 

Hookem Horns

Administrator
Staff member
One of the reasons why the Bucs became that other favorite team of mine when I was a kid was because of Doug Williams. At the time he was the only black QB in the league and I just thought it was cool that a team had a black QB. Maybe it was because our HS team (La Porte) had a black QB and wore the same colors as the Bucs.

To be honest, my interest in the Oilers was renewed when they signed Warren Moon. We had been out of Texas for a few years so I wasn’t really following the Oilers much after the Luv Ya Blue era. If Moon were white I might not have paid much attention but because it was still rare back then for NFL teams to have a black QB he caught my attention.

Today that probably sounds silly but it’s how it was with me back then. Now having a black QB is the norm so I don’t give that any thought. It just so happens that both of my teams today have a black QB (one good, one bipolar) but I don’t think of them as any race. Watson is a solid person and easy to root for. I wish I could say the same about Winston but unfortunately that’s not the case with him.
 

Dejaview

All Pro
IDIOT thread. Wanna know what is racist? Every commercial on TV depicting white men as idiots. What is the difference? This crap has to end. Wanna know what’s not racist? When this crap stops. I love Watson. Profiling is BS.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Site Contributor
To me , it really has nothing to do with his "intelligence".

Its about vision and processing that almost instantaneously into a decision.

I really think the term "intelligence" is misused in this discussion.
QBs in general are intelligent............you're right, it's about vision and processing...........mostly processing..............when you don't have that element, you tend to essentially have a QB that can't process his intelligence on the field.
 
It's a damn shame what Warren Moon went through in Houston, the guy couldn't get out of here fast enough and he never looked back. I had uncles that used to argue with me that Cody Carlson was twice as good as Moon making half the money and that Moon should take his black ass somehere else. Next to Andre Johnson Moon is my favorite player to ever play the game. I never realized until the other day when looking at his stats on my lunch break, he actually threw for more yards and more touchdowns(and fewer interceptions) than Montana did that year Montana won MVP(1990).

But I got to say I've seen it go both ways. I used to cover a high school team here for the newspaper and can't tell you how many folks I've heard tell me with a straight face that the whole problem with the team when they were losing was that there weren't enough black kids on it. Also it's a bigger thing now that "White Boys"(which to me is the same context as calling somebody a ******) can't play running back. From little league up through college and maybe even into the NFL I'm sure there have been a lot of great white running backs that just never even got a chance because of the color of their skin. So we can't pretend like this exclusively a black issue, it goes both ways. Things are tough all over pony boy.
 
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Mr teX

Hall of Fame
IDIOT thread. Wanna know what is racist? Every commercial on TV depicting white men as idiots. What is the difference? This crap has to end. Wanna know what’s not racist? When this crap stops. I love Watson. Profiling is BS.
Cmon bro. I think all of us here mostly feel the same way in regards to how much we care about whether a guy is black or not as long as he can play the qb position, we don’t care. But let’s not act like race still isn’t a factor for a lot of people. Hell wasnt it just last year some idiot in East Texas questioned DW4’s intelligence and said “you can’t count on a black qb” because of that 1 bad decision? You’d have to be a fool to believe some of those racist beliefs and thoughts haven’t penetrated NFL front offices and owners suites.

Not even sure what you’re talking about with that other stuff.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Owners will tell their GM to pick a white QB over a black QB if their talent levels are close for marketing purposes.

Jackson wasn't thought of as an NFL QB because of accuracy issues, but Harbaugh designed a system that fit his skillset. How long will he last before he gets hurt running that system? Who knows, what I'm waiting to see is a team drafting 2 or 3 guys with Jackson's skillset so when he gets hurt you just plug in another guy and keep on going. That's when you will know the NFL will have really embraced that style of play and I think this will eventaully happen. It's also why I hope the Texans spend a late rd pick on Kalil Tate or Manny Wilkins.

As far as the balck QB thingy goes, I hope the next black QB that wins a SB is Watson. Doug Wiliams was one of my favorite QB's growing up, he lifted a sad sack Tampa Bay franchise to an AFCCG and won a SB with the Redskins. His numbers may not support this but I would put him above Moon on the list of HOF black QB's because he was a clucth guy and Moon shrunk in the clutch. It's been a long time since Williams won a SB and it's about time for another one to win a SB, hopefully that's Watson and I think he can do this if he can stay healthy and keep learning.

It bothers me that some folks look at things purely on the basis of race when other factors such as money are in play and god forbid you criticize a black QB's play without being called a racist. Furthermore I could care less if Watson was green as long as he brings a Lombardi to Kirby.
 
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