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Something here seems so familiar, ARTICLE

Making the playoffs and improving as a team every yr while you're building a team would be considered being successful. Rick and Gary have failed in this regard. But BoB still wont admit or pay for his mistake in judgement.

That or making the playoffs once in a decade might be considered a measure of success. You know something the Texans have never achieved under Robert C. McNair leadership.

Detroit went 6-10 in 2010, the Rams went 7-9, & the Oakland Raiders went 8-8. If I were part of those franchises, or simply fans, I would consider those successful years.

San Diego went 9-7. I would consider that a failure.

I think it should be based on expectations. 2007, 2008 the Texans go 8-8. I considered both to be successful years. 2009 9-7, not so much. A good milestone for the franchise, but we were all expecting better than a 9-7 record against our schedule. Getting swept by the Jags.... IMO was unacceptable.

2010 expectations were even higher. I don't think our expectations were misplaced either year. The team didn't live up to expectations.
 
My specific point was that they do not accept perpetual mediocrity.

"Perpetual" is a key word in my point.

For instance, Ray Rhodes was the Packers coach in 1999 for one year. He went 8-8. Did GB accept it? No, they fired him and hired Sherman.

Sherman had five winning seasons (9-7, 12-4, 12-4, 10-6, 10-6) and then went 4-12. Did they accept it? No, they fired him and hired McCarthy. (BTW, despite receiving a contract extension earlier in the 2005 season, Sherman was fired by the Packers on January 2, 2006, after compiling a 4–12 record — Green Bay's first losing record since the 1991 season.*)

Do you honest believe that GB would allow Kubiak to flounder for five seasons without taking action? Historical facts prove otherwise.


This is the difference between McNair's privately owned Texans and the publicly owned Packers.

This is the difference between a 9 year old team & a 30+ year old team.

They did not accept one losing season after 12 years of winning.

Totally different situation that what Bob has on his hands.
 
If you want to take it a little further even Detroit tends to give coaches less time than Kubiak has enjoyed to put something real on the board. Wayne Fontes and Monty Clark are the only two coaches (I'm betting/guessing) that have lasted five or more years since the merger.

So that tells you that is definitely not the way to build a winning franchise.
 
I can't find CnD's specific thread/article, but here's one that supports the same premise:

Interesting article, but you'd have to buy into the fact that owners like the rooneys whose main business is the ownership of the steelers are idiots for winning all the time as it doesn't translate to profits & i don't think anyone thinks that. Other than that the article is flawed in so many ways. Never mind where he's getting the numbers from but the main issue with me is its only speaking from a liquid asset point of view & from year to year. Although he acknowledges that winning does correlate with team value at the beginning of the article, he largely ignores this aspect of it when he's making his premise as if you cant quantify team value & as if this team value is really of no value to anyone..again we know this isn't true at least for owners of the team.

It be interesting to see how much more valuable that 49ers dynasty team was in the 80's vs. what tampa was at that same time...i bet it wasn't even close & if Debartolo had chose to sell the 49ers franchise at that time he'd have made out like a bandit.
 
Not all teams (Texans) some are satisfied with a 9-7 season. In fact 9-7 is celebrated as some kind of an acclomplishment.

Get back to me when the Texans win the 1st big game that matters.

This is the dumbest, goofiest thing I've ever heard on this board.

Every year, you get older..... just like everybody else.... & you still celebrate that don't you.

Get back to me when you do something real, like turn 112.
 
See I love football and actually got to a point where I enjoyed watching the best NFL games each Sunday on Direct TV. I no longer do this because I'm at the Reliant during home games.

Weren't we just voted as the most exciting team?

If you like watching good football, there's plenty of that at Reliant, especially over the last 4 years. Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to have won more of them, but losing doesn't make it a bad game.
 
It's ridiculus logic to say we're becoming The Pittsburg Steelers when we have a coach in YEAR SIX with no success at all.

Y-E-A-R S-I-X

Look people, it's ridiculous to compare our team with the Steelers. 5 years ago, we had less than nothing. They were taking a play-off breather after their 2005 play-off run.
 
This is the dumbest, goofiest thing I've ever heard on this board.

Every year, you get older..... just like everybody else.... & you still celebrate that don't you.

Get back to me when you do something real, like turn 112.

BoB appreciates fans like you.

Do you enjoy a team that never has won a big game. Do you enjoy an organization that keeps GM/Coaching staff that fails to meet expectations? But the owner keeps them around anyway?

Under BoB there's no accountability within this organization and the Texans will never win until accountability is the order from the top down. I dont see this happening until a strong personality is hired to run this team. (Parcells,Gruden,Cowher type)

BoB has never hired this type authoritarin leader to run his franchise and I dont see it happening anytime soon.

As far as all of those fancy stats you put up. Theu're great. But they have no substance. The only stat that matters is 9 yrs an 0 playoff appearances. I hate going to games and watching Gary physically tighten up in the 4th qtr of games. I dont belive this is a characteristic of Lombardi,Walsh,Landry,Belichick etc....

Keeping Gary and Rick on has given me very little hope for the Texan next yr. We've seen their act for 5 yrs now. When will their act get old to you?

I dont want exciting games. I want wins and you should too. That's the only criteria that really matters when it comes to being a successful franchise and it's not going to happen until the GREAT FANS of the HOUSTON TEXANS demand that BoB make that priority number 1.
 
BoB appreciates fans like you.

Do you enjoy a team that never has won a big game. Do you enjoy an organization that keeps GM/Coaching staff that fails to meet expectations? But the owner keeps them around anyway?


Under BoB there's no accountability within this organization and the Texans will never win until accountability is the order from the top down. I dont see this happening until a strong personality is hired to run this team. (Parcells,Gruden,Cowher type)


BoB has never hired this type authoritarin leader to run his franchise and I dont see it happening anytime soon.

As far as all of those fancy stats you put up. Theu're great. But they have no substance. The only stat that matters is 9 yrs an 0 playoff appearances. I hate going to games and watching Gary physically tighten up in the 4th qtr of games. I dont belive this is a characteristic of Lombardi,Walsh,Landry,Belichick etc....

Keeping Gary and Rick on has given me very little hope for the Texan next yr. We've seen their act for 5 yrs now. When will their act get old to you?

I dont want exciting games. I want wins and you should too. That's the only criteria that really matters when it comes to being a successful franchise and it's not going to happen until the GREAT FANS of the HOUSTON TEXANS demand that BoB make that priority number 1.



Fans can demand all they want...still doesn't mean that its going to happen; ask cleveland cavalier, new york knick & now houston rocket fans.

Get over it, Gary's coming back I'm sure wherever you'll be, you'll be front & center tuned in...watching him & the team "tighten up". & if you don't think coaches like belichick, walsh & landry haven't, didn't had their share of :vincepalm: moments..you haven't been watching football too closely.
 
Interesting article, but you'd have to buy into the fact that owners like the rooneys whose main business is the ownership of the steelers are idiots for winning all the time as it doesn't translate to profits & i don't think anyone thinks that. Other than that the article is flawed in so many ways. Never mind where he's getting the numbers from but the main issue with me is its only speaking from a liquid asset point of view & from year to year. Although he acknowledges that winning does correlate with team value at the beginning of the article, he largely ignores this aspect of it when he's making his premise as if you cant quantify team value & as if this team value is really of no value to anyone..again we know this isn't true at least for owners of the team.

It be interesting to see how much more valuable that 49ers dynasty team was in the 80's vs. what tampa was at that same time...i bet it wasn't even close & if Debartolo had chose to sell the 49ers franchise at that time he'd have made out like a bandit.

yeah, I agree that it's an interesting article. I'm not really going to argue for or against it, as it is what it is and one angle of a complex issue.

I guess one aspect that has always made me scratch my head about things is the Houston Texans being ranked as the sixth (?) most valuable sports franchise in the world. This is a team that has accomplished zilch, so it's interesting that they could be both so valuable and profitable.

I don't criticize McNair about the money thing. I think he allows the football people that he's hired to make decisions and he funds them accordingly. There has been rumors about not paying coaches, but I read recently that Wade is the highest paid DC in the NFL, so that kinda' deflates those rumors. Maybe there's something there with scouts and FO personnel, but I have read nothing substantial supporting that premise.

My focus has solely been on the operational aspects of the franchise as it pertains to the product on the field. And for whatever reason(s), his loyalty to Gary seems to be the thing that most do not understand and/or agree with in the end.

thunderkyss said:
9-7 is 9-7
This

On the surface, it's easy to make that assumption.

However, I think you need to dig a little deeper. A nine win season where only one of those wins is a division opponent is much different than a nine win season when four or five of those wins are division opponents.

A 9-7 team who has kept the division in check by consistently beating divisional opponents stands a better chance of winning the division that getting all the wins outside of the division.

So sometimes a deeper analysis is required to see the differences in the same record.
 
BoB appreciates fans like you.
I'm sure he appreciates fans like you as well.
Do you enjoy a team that never has won a big game. Do you enjoy an organization that keeps GM/Coaching staff that fails to meet expectations? But the owner keeps them around anyway?
This has nothing to do with what I said. We were talking about the 9-7 season. The season we finally won more games than we lost. I said it was a milestone, something worth celebrating. Not cause for us to relax our expectations for this team.

Your wife (if you're married) gets a raise, you go out & celebrate. You don't bash her for not getting a promotion.

That's all I said.
Under BoB there's no accountability within this organization and the Texans will never win until accountability is the order from the top down. I dont see this happening until a strong personality is hired to run this team. (Parcells,Gruden,Cowher type)
This is another goofy line that gets repeated around here as if it's fact. You don't know this. Accountability, look it up. It doesn't mean fired. Have you ever missed a goal at your job? Missed a deadline? Come short, just a little? Have you ever been fired for doing such things? Were you given an opportunity to correct your mistakes?

That's accountability.

I've said plenty of times after the 2010 season, I believe Gary should have been fired. That's after failing to meet expectations several times (2008, 2009, 2010), after being given an opportunity to fix whatever his problem may be. McNair didn't do that. But I still don't believe that means there is no accountability. He did fire both Casserly & Capers, this situation must be different. He did fire Frank Bush, Jonny Holland, & David Gibbs...... so there is some accountability somewhere.
BoB has never hired this type authoritarin leader to run his franchise and I dont see it happening anytime soon.
So, it's not like those guys are running away with Super Bowl Championships or anything. Hell, it took Cowher damn near a generation to get there & everyone wants to act like he'll get us there in a season or two.
As far as all of those fancy stats you put up. Theu're great. But they have no substance. The only stat that matters is 9 yrs an 0 playoff appearances. I hate going to games and watching Gary physically tighten up in the 4th qtr of games. I dont belive this is a characteristic of Lombardi,Walsh,Landry,Belichick etc....
Have you been to games to see how Lombardi, Walsh, Landry, Belichick react to the 4th Qtr? Do they roll out a hammock & cold one?
Keeping Gary and Rick on has given me very little hope for the Texan next yr. We've seen their act for 5 yrs now. When will their act get old to you?

I dont want exciting games. I want wins and you should too. That's the only criteria that really matters when it comes to being a successful franchise and it's not going to happen until the GREAT FANS of the HOUSTON TEXANS demand that BoB make that priority number 1.

Who says I don't want wins? The statement I made was in reference to whether the game was good or not. Winning isn't the determining factor for whether a game was good or not. There's usually 15 other games played every week, where I don't care who wins or loses... many of those are good games. Some of them aren't, even though someone did win.

Bob McNair says he wants to win. He says he kept Gary, brought in Wade because he wants us to win next year.

You're saying he is doing it for other reasons.

& you believe I should believe you.

I'm not going to defend McNair's decision to keep Kubiak. I don't agree with keeping both Kubiak & Smith. But it makes sense & I can understand his thinking. Keeping Kubiak & Wade has more probability of winning 10+ games in 2011 as bringing in Cowher/Gruden/whoever. Not what I would have done. Obviously not what you would have done. But just as viable an option as any.
 
in 2009, 9-7 was successful for the Ravens, the Jets, & the Steelers.

The best coaches in the league got their teams to 9-7, "success."

Gary Kubiak does the same thing, "mediocre."

Those other coaches get "the benefit of the doubt" because they had been to the play-offs before, or in the case of the Ravens & Jets were going to the play-offs that year.

Those "better" coaches took "better" teams to 9-7 (the 2008 Jets went 9-7, the 2008 Ravens went 11-5, the 2008 Steelers won the Super Bowl) and they were "successful"

Our coach took a team that had never had a winning season, never been in to the play-offs, to 9-7.... didn't even have a running game... but he's a failure.. had a gimpy Center, lost both starting guards & his pro-bowl TE...

Fail.

This doesn't change the fact that I do believe Kubiak should have got us to the play-offs in 2010. 5 years is long enough. It's a shame he wasn't more successful in the 4 prior years, that would have bought him more time in my eyes. It's the bed he made, the bed he has to lie in..... I think he should have been fired after 2010.

Where I differ from the fans who claim that Tomlin, Harbaugh, & Ryan are better coaches than Kubiak, is that I don't consider their 9-7 to be any better than Kubiak's 9-7. 9-7 is 9-7

Well for one all those coaches are better than Kubiak. Secondly, you are right, 9-7 is 9-7 but it is your teams perception of 9-7 that matters. For all of those teams or coaches they were good before and have been good after 9-7. So sneaking into the playoffs at 9-7 might have been a chump season but in the grand scheme of things it was a blip and they still got to their goal. For Houston 9-7 was the first winning season but considering the other seasons it meant nothing and to many was done while running out 4 meaningless games(just perception). When someone starts 5-7 every year then there isn't much to celebrate about 9-7. Records are the same but yearly expectations are not. I doubt those fans were celebrating 9-7, despite playoffs. They expect more. So do those organizations.
 
Well for one all those coaches are better than Kubiak. Secondly, you are right, 9-7 is 9-7 but it is your teams perception of 9-7 that matters.

It's really unfair for you to jump into this debate with this argument. 9-7 is 9-7........ the rest of that is a different argument all together.
 
Maybe there's something there with scouts and FO personnel, but I have read nothing substantial supporting that premise.

To the contrary, it was reported when Casserly was here that they had the largest (I didn't say most effective, but to the money point) scouting staff in the NFL. Kubiak and Smith decreased the size. McNair seems to follow the advice of this chosen football guys.

On the surface, it's easy to make that assumption.

However, I think you need to dig a little deeper. A nine win season where only one of those wins is a division opponent is much different than a nine win season when four or five of those wins are division opponents.

A 9-7 team who has kept the division in check by consistently beating divisional opponents stands a better chance of winning the division that getting all the wins outside of the division.

So sometimes a deeper analysis is required to see the differences in the same record.

Yes and no. We could have beaten the Jets and lost to the Titans for the same 9-7 record with 0-6 in the division and gone to the playoffs. These scenarios are endless - but I agree you would like to beat your division rivals even if it is just for the hell of it and makes no difference.

I doubt those fans were celebrating 9-7, despite playoffs.

Yeah right the Ravens, Jets and other similarly situated fans weren't celebrating making the playoffs at 9-7 or even the Seahawks at 7-9.
 
Fans can demand all they want...still doesn't mean that its going to happen; ask cleveland cavalier, new york knick & now houston rocket fans.

Get over it, Gary's coming back I'm sure wherever you'll be, you'll be front & center tuned in...watching him & the team "tighten up". & if you don't think coaches like belichick, walsh & landry haven't, didn't had their share of :vincepalm: moments..you haven't been watching football too closely.

Hope you enjoy the mediocrity
 
I'm sure he appreciates fans like you as well.

This has nothing to do with what I said. We were talking about the 9-7 season. The season we finally won more games than we lost. I said it was a milestone, something worth celebrating. Not cause for us to relax our expectations for this team.

Your wife (if you're married) gets a raise, you go out & celebrate. You don't bash her for not getting a promotion.

That's all I said.

This is another goofy line that gets repeated around here as if it's fact. You don't know this. Accountability, look it up. It doesn't mean fired. Have you ever missed a goal at your job? Missed a deadline? Come short, just a little? Have you ever been fired for doing such things? Were you given an opportunity to correct your mistakes?

That's accountability.

I've said plenty of times after the 2010 season, I believe Gary should have been fired. That's after failing to meet expectations several times (2008, 2009, 2010), after being given an opportunity to fix whatever his problem may be. McNair didn't do that. But I still don't believe that means there is no accountability. He did fire both Casserly & Capers, this situation must be different. He did fire Frank Bush, Jonny Holland, & David Gibbs...... so there is some accountability somewhere.

So, it's not like those guys are running away with Super Bowl Championships or anything. Hell, it took Cowher damn near a generation to get there & everyone wants to act like he'll get us there in a season or two.

Have you been to games to see how Lombardi, Walsh, Landry, Belichick react to the 4th Qtr? Do they roll out a hammock & cold one?


Who says I don't want wins? The statement I made was in reference to whether the game was good or not. Winning isn't the determining factor for whether a game was good or not. There's usually 15 other games played every week, where I don't care who wins or loses... many of those are good games. Some of them aren't, even though someone did win.

Bob McNair says he wants to win. He says he kept Gary, brought in Wade because he wants us to win next year.

You're saying he is doing it for other reasons.

& you believe I should believe you.

I'm not going to defend McNair's decision to keep Kubiak. I don't agree with keeping both Kubiak & Smith. But it makes sense & I can understand his thinking. Keeping Kubiak & Wade has more probability of winning 10+ games in 2011 as bringing in Cowher/Gruden/whoever. Not what I would have done. Obviously not what you would have done. But just as viable an option as any.

Obviously your mind isn't going to be changed. Houston Texans where mediocrity lives should be the Texans slogan for next yr.

If you want to know more about how the Texans are run. You have to follow the $$$$. Not all of the these are good coaches/bad coaches/stat mongering type stuff.

This is why there is going to be a lockout. IMHO

I actually hope their is one in a way. So BoB will have to open his books and show them to the world. That will never happen. Because if it did teams fans around the NFL would be pissed.
 
If you're as passionate a fan as you claim, you will too if it comes to pass....

I'm an indifferent fan who hopes tp outlive BoB.

Even though I'm younger BoB's dad is 100. So time may not be on my side.

They say evil people live longer. LOL
 
Obviously your mind isn't going to be changed. Houston Texans where mediocrity lives should be the Texans slogan for next yr.

If you want to know more about how the Texans are run. You have to follow the $$$$. Not all of the these are good coaches/bad coaches/stat mongering type stuff.

This is why there is going to be a lockout. IMHO

I actually hope their is one in a way. So BoB will have to open his books and show them to the world. That will never happen. Because if it did teams fans around the NFL would be pissed.

Where do you come up with this stuff SBT? It's almost comical at this point...

why are you still here as a fan if you don't have any faith that mcnair will eventually get it right?
 
Because as Fud has proven as an owner. You can be an ***** and still put a good product on the field. If his heart is in it.

The word Houston on the jersey means more to me. Than McNair owning the team.

The word Houston, period probably means more to me than it does to McNair. My Houston roots run alot deeper than his and probably yours.
 
Where do you come up with this stuff SBT? It's almost comical at this point...

why are you still here as a fan if you don't have any faith that mcnair will eventually get it right?

What do you find humorous? Any NFL owner opening his books would be humorous. Maybe that's just my sense of humor though.

Your blind faith is very humorous. Your belief that a billionaire that has built the 10th most profitable sports franchise in the world is incapable of having a franchise that cant make the playoffs after a decade of trying. Without him and his policies that he sets for the organization not being the major source of the problem with the product on the field. I find this hilariuosly humorous.

But I'm not going to change your mind. So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
What do you find humorous? Any NFL owner opening his books would be humorous. Maybe that's just my sense of humor though.

Your blind faith is very humorous. Your belief that a billionaire that has built the 10th most profitable sports franchise in the world is incapable of having a franchise that cant make the playoffs after a decade of trying. Without him and his policies that he sets for the organization not being the major source of the problem with the product on the field. I find this hilariuosly humorous.

But I'm not going to change your mind. So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

BLIND FAITH seems to be a common tradition among man kind. Take that into consideration.
 
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