The fact that Fitzpatrick , a late 4th round QB will get a roster spot ahead of Yates & Keenum should tell you all you need to know about the talent (lack of) the Texans had at QB last season.
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So .... Who's your QB in 2014 ?! - [edit] Mallett?
- Thread starter Corrosion
- Start date
The fact that Fitzpatrick , a late 4th round QB will get a roster spot ahead of Yates & Keenum should tell you all you need to know about the talent (lack of) the Texans had at QB last season.
With that in mind... do you think we'd be better off with guys like Stafford, Bradford, Locker, Gabbert, Weadon, Tannehill, & guys like that? I know Stafford's thrown for a lot of yards, but I don't believe he gives his team a particular advantage towards winning games.
When "most" people think, "they don't have a franchise QB" they usually think of your John Skelton, David Anderson, Colt McCoy, Jason Campbell, Dan Orlovsky types.
I don't know if we're that bad off yet.
I wouldn't bet that we have the next Tom Brady on our roster, but I think we may very well have the next Matt Schaub, Andy Dalton, David Garrard, Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck type of QB on our roster.
Still need to look for that franchise QB, but the situation isn't hopeless.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
With the bold? Yes. I'd take Stafford for his cannon and Tannehill because he would absolutely kill it in O'Brien's offense. The only thing standing between Tannehill and success is that incredibly awful O-line in Miami.
It was that bad last season & I don't think it got a whole lot better this season as far as talent at the position is concerned. They are far from having Andy Dalton , David Garrard or (a healthy) Matt Schaub. Those guy's are leaps & bounds better than Fitzpatrick , Keenum or a yet to throw an NFL pass Savage.
Hell , they may have taken a step back at the position as this year they only have one guy with potential rather than two as Keenum & Yates have shown they are not starter quality , Fitzpatrick hasn't won much & has had turnover issues leaving you with just Savage .... a late 4th rounder who the odds are against.
With a weak schedule , they may win a few games , maybe even make the playoffs but I think that will be in spite of rather than because of the QB talent. That defense will have to carry them and hope the offense doesn't make more mistakes than it can cover for.
Keenum appeared to be just as talented as all those guys I mentioned. He just made some bad decisions trying to make something happen, instead of giving up on certain plays.
Maybe he didn't mesh with what Kubiak was trying to do, maybe he'll find a better fit with OB's system. Maybe having control of the protections & the routes will work out for him. Maybe OB's process will make it easier for him to make better decisions.
I don't think it was a "talent" problem, as far as a recognition & decision making problem.
Most of QB's who make it to an NFL roster are pretty close in physical talent , Keenum is no different.
I consider talent at the QB position to include the cognitive aspects of the game - recognition & decision making are a big part of that. Just look at Peyton , Brady , Brees & Montana among others, that's what makes them special.
They are talking about cutting a QB , that could be Keenum , it wont be Fitzpatrick , a guy with a 27-49-1 career record. It could be Yates too ...
If Keenum gets cut or fails to beat out 27-49-1 as the starter .... what does that tell us ??? (We don't have too long a wait to find out).
27-49-1 Vs 0'fer - 8 Vs 2-3 (1-1 in the playoffs) Vs Rookie 4th rounder .... The bar isn't set very high at QB this season.
They are banking on the QB limiting mistakes while the defense does the heavy lifting with the hopes that they find their future starter in Savage or in next years draft / FA / trade.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
I wonder what the odds would be for Keenum and Yates of being picked up by another team. Certainly wouldn't be to challenge for a starting role. Would they make it out of camp with any other team as a back-up?
Preaching to the choir brother. Preaching to the choir.
C,
You have said at least twice now that the Texans will have to rely on the D to win games.
The 2012 Texans allowed a little more than 6 points fewer than the last year version.
The 2011 Texans allowed more than 9 points fewer.
Take either of those versions and Keenum would have won 5, 6, or maybe even 7 out of 8 games.
And that was against quite a strong schedule. (4 games against playoff teams plus a 10-6 win Cards.)
This year, the schedule is weaker (5 games against playoff teams all year) while Case has another year of experience under his belt.
How do you justify the numbers?
Good point.
Obviously the offense was bad last year, but compared to 2011-2012, the defense wasn't great either. It was a total team meltdown. I agree that if Case had had 2011's defense, or even 2012's, along with a healthy Arian Foster, he would have had a much better record. Of course, there are those who think eight games is enough to judge a QB by.
I don't really care who's the QB, as long as he earns the job. It sounds like Fitz is currently in the lead, and that's fine. I just want the best man to win the job, and it sounds like that's what BOB is going to find out.
I don't care who wins the job either , as long as they win it ....
I don't have a horse in this race , I'm just pointing out that the QB play last year was bad , sure Case had decent games / halves and maybe should have won a few , he didn't have much to work with having street FA's line up at RB with him late in the season .... but that doesn't change the fact that the QB play was lacking.
Its a legit excuse (the lack of talent around him) but an excuse none the less and definitely doesn't excuse the biggest flaws Keenum showed last season in recognition of pressure & pre-snap reads. That's on Keenum.
What we fail to realize with the stats 76 gives is how many times the offense put the defense in bad situations ..... how many times they failed to sustain drives sending them back out on the field.
And sometimes the defense couldn't hold the opposing offense when Lechler pinned them inside the 10. The whole team sucked last year.
bayoudreamn
Rookie
I kind of agree with both sides of this argument. The play selection, and lack of options will be clarified a bit this year. I also think we got subpar QB coaching since lil Shenanigans went to Washington.
I also think Case gives us a better chance to win in 2014, because we're pretty much the same offense with a few things to fix. With Fitz, or even Yates, we're starting over with a "new" QB where a lot of new issues can pop up.
Same players but a totally different scheme .... Starting from page one in the playbook , they are all pretty much equal.
Someone has to earn this QB job.
The difference in the scheme is that they will attempt to exploit the middle of the field more. Problem is , I don't think any of these QB's has the arm for it other than Savage and .... he aint ready.
Tell me about Brady's % completion numbers outside the hashes/numbers.
Otherwise I agree with you.
I think after a 1-2 start Savage will take over and a 6-10-7-9 season will follow, But atleast this team will be a tough team and if Savage becomes what BOB thinks he can become good times are ahead in 3 yrs. Kubiak was afforded these chances and I expect McNair to afford BOB the same opportunities,
Would you not agree? Afterall the Texans org did finish 2-14 last yr.
True enough.
Agreed. Still think it's better if Case wins the job. If we were talking about someone much more talented, much more accomplished, or with much more potential, I'm all for it. But we're talking about Fitzpatrick, Tj Yates, & Savage.
All that said, I think the continuity of Keenum would be better than just throwing out one of those guys. If they demonstrate they are straight up better than him in TC, that's fine... I want the best guy to start.
I just haven't seen anything to say that any one is any better than any other. & we've seen plenty of Fitzpatrick.
I'm not saying it's Case's job to lose, or Fitzpatrick's, or Yates'... just that I think it would be better for us if Case can do what he needs to do to win the job, since he led that offensive personnel in 8 of our final games.
I don't know about that. Seems like OB is going to figure out what we do well & use that to game plan week to week, even mid-game. Whatever we're doing that works, that's what we're going to do. If it's throwing screens to the TEs & RBs, or Stretching the field vertically, or pounding the edges, or exploiting the middle.
Whatever it takes to win.
Can't imagine any of our QBs playing bad enough to justify a change after a 1-2 start. Case wasn't playing so bad after an 0-3 start that I wanted him out.
I don't remember Tj playing so bad as we finished 1-2 in 2011 that I wanted him benched.
I'd have to see a butt fumble or something before I want the QB benched after a 1-2 start.
But he kills it down the middle of the field .... TE's , backs under the LBers , and the slot guy is usually their leading receiver. I expect pretty much the same thing here.
I wont predict who starts , or how they finish .... I just want to see the best guy win the job and give them a chance to win.
With that defense & the weak schedule , anything could happen .... even winning the division. (That's not a prediction , just saying anything is possible if the offense doesn't screw the pooch).
As for how McNair handles O'Brien .... I think he'll have a long leash , McNair is a pretty patient guy and realizes continuity is required for long term success in the NFL.
I also think he realizes that they probably don't have their long term QB on this roster so if they have a poor record this season .... its not really a big deal.
Savage may have potential .... but I wouldn't bet the farm on him & neither will McNair / O'Brien.
Fitzpatrick has 27 NFL W's .... Keenum has 0. Both have been in bad situations but 27 is a whole lot more accomplished than 0.
I just want the best guy to start , that's the bottom line .... Earn the job.
We'll see how it plays out .... I don't put much stock into Keenum's 8 starts in a different system ..... Someone go take that job from the other guy's.
May the best man win.
That's what we've heard from O'Brien .... and I would expect to hear nothing else & I would expect him to do nothing else.
Just making the point that in the offense he ran at NE ... TE's on seam routes & the slot guy got a hell of a lot of balls thrown their way. Then again , they had the personnel to do that .... That's one thing Kubiak couldn't do with Schaub because he didn't have the arm for those routes that required a perfectly placed ball with velocity.
I don't see that arm from any QB on this roster other than Savage ... just an observation of arm strength.
Who was left to start other than a broken Schaub , Keenum or .... some street FA at that point ?! Yates sh!t the bed in his opportunity too.
Well , considering Schaub was injured , LienFart was broke up too .... Yates was all we had to go with. I don't think anyone was truly satisfied with a 1-2 finish nor 1-1 in the playoffs ..... But again , Yates or some dude who had spent the season sitting on his couch ?! Who could we b!tch & complain that should have been playing over Yates despite the results ?!
Eh , a butt fumble is a freak play , embarrassing but a freak play. The defender had something to do with that happening too .... shoving the OL right into PrettyBoyButtFumble's way.
I want to see the QB have command of the offense & limit mistakes. If the guy they start the season with looks like he's in over his head .... I could see making a change after three games pending I (OB) thought one of the other QB's on the roster could do a better job. I'm not making a change just to make a change that early.
Someone .... go and take it.
Right at this moment, I don't even think of Fitz vs Keenum, but this ranking by NFL.com is interesting nonetheless.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000304038/article/quarterback-index-yearend-rankings
It had Fitz at 26, Keenum at 28, Schaub at 31, and the two rookies rounding out the list; Smith and Manuel at 33 and 34.
I don't know what criteria Gregg Rosenthal used;
Whether he considered the state of the O-line, the running game, the D, the ST, etc. (All of which can either help or hurt the QBs).
For Keenum to be at 28 is a good thing.
The least Keenum qualified for was a bottom starter.
Or he was a very good back up to be on that list.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000304038/article/quarterback-index-yearend-rankings
It had Fitz at 26, Keenum at 28, Schaub at 31, and the two rookies rounding out the list; Smith and Manuel at 33 and 34.
I don't know what criteria Gregg Rosenthal used;
Whether he considered the state of the O-line, the running game, the D, the ST, etc. (All of which can either help or hurt the QBs).
For Keenum to be at 28 is a good thing.
The least Keenum qualified for was a bottom starter.
Or he was a very good back up to be on that list.
Fitz also has something like 49 NFL L's.... Keenum has 8... There was a lot of QB screwing ups in all of them.
The point was that the QB play wasn't so bad in those stretches to warrant a change. They both showed the ability & played well enough to win if others stepped up & played to their expectations. Keenum's 0-3 start could have been a 3-0 start if our defense didn't allow 80+ yard drives, or our RB/OL could pick up 3rd & short (one particular 4th & 1 had me shaking my head).
Yeah, that's the kind of embarrassing freaky play I need to see before swapping QBs after a 1-2 start.
Also, note here the "danger" of counting on PFF too much.
http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2014/06/can-pro-football-focus-stats-be-blindly-trusted
One of the key points is that they put out the grades before the All-22 films come out.
Without the coaches films (the All-22), there are a lot of guess works involved.
Even with the coaches films, there are still a lot of guess works involved.
There are so many factors to consider.
For example, the INT that Schaub threw to Hopkins on the right side line.
Some of us thought that it was on Hopkins, and not on Schaub.
Or the one Schaub threw to AJ in the endzone.
Was it because AJ stopped short of the route?
Why was it that Schaub threw a tandrum afterward, and AJ walked away.
Maybe AJ was expecting that Schaub would go to the open man on the left?
Maybe he didn't think that Schaub would throw into a crowd?
We just don't know who was at fault.
Or the first INT Keenum threw in the second loss to the Colts.
If you slow down the tape, you would see that when the ball left Keenum's hand, AJ still had outside position on the CB; but the CB intercepted the ball to the outside.
I honestly don't know if it was poor ball placement by Keenum.
It was a great play by the CB; that's for sure.
How AJ was supposed to run that route; I can't be as sure.
Or perhaps Keenum should have thrown that ball a hair earlier?
But the edge rusher was in the way?
I guess that's why they call it a game of inches?
Just some thoughts to ponder, not to lay blame or to make excuses.
http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2014/06/can-pro-football-focus-stats-be-blindly-trusted
One of the key points is that they put out the grades before the All-22 films come out.
Without the coaches films (the All-22), there are a lot of guess works involved.
Even with the coaches films, there are still a lot of guess works involved.
There are so many factors to consider.
For example, the INT that Schaub threw to Hopkins on the right side line.
Some of us thought that it was on Hopkins, and not on Schaub.
Or the one Schaub threw to AJ in the endzone.
Was it because AJ stopped short of the route?
Why was it that Schaub threw a tandrum afterward, and AJ walked away.
Maybe AJ was expecting that Schaub would go to the open man on the left?
Maybe he didn't think that Schaub would throw into a crowd?
We just don't know who was at fault.
Or the first INT Keenum threw in the second loss to the Colts.
If you slow down the tape, you would see that when the ball left Keenum's hand, AJ still had outside position on the CB; but the CB intercepted the ball to the outside.
I honestly don't know if it was poor ball placement by Keenum.
It was a great play by the CB; that's for sure.
How AJ was supposed to run that route; I can't be as sure.
Or perhaps Keenum should have thrown that ball a hair earlier?
But the edge rusher was in the way?
I guess that's why they call it a game of inches?
Just some thoughts to ponder, not to lay blame or to make excuses.
thetexanator
Veteran
id give case 3 games to prove he can read a blitz, and unless this team is 3-3 or better, i bring savage in for the last 10 games.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I do see it as Fitz versus Keenum with Savage sitting and learning. I think Keenum will have a learning spurt.
It's going to be pretty hard for Keenum to have this team better than 3-3 after three games.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Going to be fun to watch this all unfold.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Not really, because even after it unfolds and someone "wins"....the position will still be the biggest liability on the team.
NCTexan
Veteran
There you Keenum fan bois go again. Doing everything you can do defend him from the harsh reality that is the NFL. You guys would probably cut him slack for getting your order wrong at McDonald's if he worked there.
Just kidding TK
Amen.
We suffered from a perfect storm of key injuries and untimely suckage. And even so, we were close in quite a few games.
drs23
Veteran
Or it's going to be BRUTAL. Preseason should allow us to see which way it's more than likely to go I think.
I don't think we'll see stellar QB play , but if the defense can live up to its level of talent , O'Brien doesn't need Tom Brady or Peyton Manning type QB play to win more than a few games.
It'll be on O'Brien to limit the damage that liability at QB can do ...
This season will be interesting to watch for a lot of reasons. It could be a train wreck ..... or they could win the division or something between the two.
what other option are there than the 3 you mentioned?
Sigma
Veteran
Troy Chapman
Rookie
I'm not seeing going after Mallet after the guaranteed money given to Fitz. Unless it is a release Keenum and replace with Mallett. Let Mallett and Fitz compete for the starting spot while Savage sits and learns.
What was this line about???
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with him; just trying to understand the message.
Is this a comparison, by Braddock, of Mallett and Fitzpatrick?? And is Braddock saying that Mallett, a guy with miniscule actual NFL playing experience, is an upgrade over Fitzpatrick??
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with him; just trying to understand the message.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
What was this line about???
Is this a comparison, by Braddock, of Mallett and Fitzpatrick?? And is Braddock saying that Mallett, a guy with miniscule actual NFL playing experience, is an upgrade over Fitzpatrick??
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with him; just trying to understand the message.
Yes, he is saying the excuses he gets for Mallett is no game experience and was a head case in college. Braddock's rebuttal is simply "Ryan Fitzpatrick". He clearly thinks Mallet would be an upgrade over Fitz.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Mallett is intriguing. That being said, so is Savage... and, Braddock is pretty foolish to assert that the Texans are vastly better in 2014 with Mallett starting instead of Fitzpatrick.
Not many coaches would muddy the QB situation by acquiring Mallett after drafting Savage and naming Fitzpatrick the starter... regardless whether it worked out or not, I would be impressed with O'Brien for trying it. On the other hand, I would be decidedly unimpressed if he cut or traded Fitz simply to make room for Mallett, before allowing them to compete.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
Fitz likely isn't going anywhere based on the guaranteed money paid to him. If (which I doubt happen) Mallet is brought in, Keenum would be out.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
If a team carries three QB's on their roster, they're probably not contenders anyway.
2011 Patriots carried 3 QB's....just saying.
texanskan
Waterboy
If a team carries three QB's on their roster, they're probably not contenders anyway.
I don't agree with that at all.
I would much rather carry a 3rd qb if I thought I had another good one than say a 9th OL man
That's that pre "Matt Flynn" way of thinking.
Take money out of the decision. If he's not one of the two best QBs on the team by the time the season starts, don't let one bad decision turn into two.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
I'm not saying he is immune from being released. It will take something dramatic to happen to have him released.
barrett
All Pro
I watched some of Fitzpatrick vs. the Colts in week 11 or 12 I believe. I thought he looked pretty good. He doesn't seem to lead his receivers or throw them open but I liked his decision making, overall. He led his team to score on the final drive and looked very capable.
I'm very curious to see how he performs. They guy is fearless, and that will be refreshing.
I'm very curious to see how he performs. They guy is fearless, and that will be refreshing.
The patriots tried out Brady Quin this week. Interesting since they currently have Mallet and Gerapolo backing up Brady. The Pats seldom keep more than two QBs so could this mean they are about to trade Mallet and will need another arm for camp to replace him?
I have to say I'm not a Mallet fan but at this point I don't think beggars can be choosers.
I have to say I'm not a Mallet fan but at this point I don't think beggars can be choosers.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
No. IMO I think Fitz has Billy'O's backing and Savage will end up the number 2. Keenum will get cut and end up on the practice squad. At least that is what my magic 8 ball tells me.
I don't think Keenum is practice squad eligible anymore and he wouldn't clear waivers this time I don't believe.