Save us Savage!!!!!!!

[Scooter]

Edit.

 

[thunderkyss]

He's got the tools, but is so lacking in training that he was at least 2 years from being in the starter discussion when selected last April. That hasn't changed. To suggest that he's ahead of such a schedule is just wrong.

I never bought into that two year thing. To me, you say a guy needs a year or two when his mechanics are bad. That's not the case with Tom Savage. He's got really good mechanics & what little time he played in college, roughly the same amount of time as Manziel & Bortles, he played under center. Same can't be said of Manziel & Bortles... or even Roethlisberger & Flacco (who also started year one).

IMO, Savage needs time to get up to NFL speed. That's usually done by throwing him into the game in blow outs, at the end of halfs, & when the starter gets hurt.

He needs to be #2 so he can be learning the offense, learning the game plan, & preparing to play. He gets none of that running the scout team.

I know you're looking for a place on this team for Keenum. IMO, the only place he has is the starter. But he's behind Mallett & Fitzpatrick. But hey, maybe we don't sign Mallett. He's a confident dude & probably thinking he's worth more money than the Texans want to give him. Or maybe he won't sign a long term deal & the Texans won't sign him to a one or two year deal.

So then there's Fitz. I'd think it's 50/50 that they take Case's influence with the team over Fitz's experience.... maybe 40/60.

 

[infantrycak]

Not that I want Fitz back, but the Seahawks did go into the 2012 season with just Matt Flynn and Russell Wilson.

Flynn had what? 2 starts and just over 130 attempts.
And Russell Wilson was just a third rounder rookie.

There's no telling what Fitz, Savage, and Keenum can show after another training camp with OB.
(I'm leaving Mallett out as this is only one "possible" scenario that we are "contemplating", just for the heck of it.)

Kind of. They also had Tavares Jackson and his 34 starts right up to the open of the season and then they made a very exceptional choice. Squarely falls into the exception proves the rule.

 

[Marshall]

Because Savage was hurt and we did not have another QB on the roster.

Mallet was already out, Fitz was already out - we only had Savage. Then he was hurt as well, but stayed in the game and finished the last 2-3 plays.

We actually had another QB on the roster, but Thad Lewis wasn't up to speed on this offense yet. I know...the forgotten man. But Keenum performed for OB and I don't think he will forget that.

 

[Marshall]

I don't know how, but I missed where Savage got hurt. What happened?

http://www.battleredblog.com/2014/1...texans-injuries-tom-savage-hurt-will-have-mri

 

[cland]

I don't think I can disagree with this more strongly. Savage will be 25 this season. He has 2 years experience as a FBS starter. He has a year of NFL training camp, meetings, and practices under his belt. He has been around football all his life. If Savage can't at least win the backup job this season, it will never happen for him. Colleges are churning out QBs every year. If Savage can't prove he's ready to make the next step now, the Texans have to move on. Another redshirt year does nothing for Savage or the Texans.

Yes, by development time I mean the next year as the backup with Texans (assuming Mallet stays healthly). Actually receiving more practice time with the 2s. I don't think you take a guy who was on the scout team in his first year, and expect him to outperform Mallet who's been in the system for 5 years now.

 

[sandman]

But Keenum performed for OB and I don't think he will forget that.

Let's not be historical revisionists. Keenum gets credited with the win against the Ravens, but he put up less-than-Fitz type numbers while the defense put on a historic performance.

You can argue that coming in from the Rams PS, that was all he needed to do, and I wouldn't disagree with you. But in the end, Case didn't lose the game for the Texans. Considering that is basically how Fitz has been described all season, I am not sure how Case being Fitz 2.0 merits his inclusion in the Texans QB discussion. Especially since OB cut him before the season started and only brought him back when all three QB's in the roster got hurt.

 

[Marshall]

Let's not be historical revisionists. Keenum gets credited with the win against the Ravens, but he put up less-than-Fitz type numbers while the defense put on a historic performance.

You can argue that coming in from the Rams PS, that was all he needed to do, and I wouldn't disagree with you. But in the end, Case didn't lose the game for the Texans. Considering that is basically how Fitz has been described all season, I am not sure how Case being Fitz 2.0 merits his inclusion in the Texans QB discussion. Especially since OB cut him before the season started and only brought him back when all three QB's in the roster got hurt.

I'm not arguing that he would start. Only that he might be a better choice than what we could get in the draft as a third QB should Mallett go elsewhere or we decide to let Fitz go. But once a part of the team, he would once again compete for his slot. I assume that Savage is safe, but his slot is not set. Fitz has equal chances of starting, backing up Savage or Mallett or being cut. But I suspect if both Mallett and Savage are healthy and signed, we might prefer a Keenum to Fitz as a third QB. I see no way Lewis is here for the season and maybe not for camp.

But I may be wrong. It's all probability while many think they are fortune tellers. I make no such claim.

 

[sandman]

I'm not arguing that he would start. Only that he might be a better choice than what we could get in the draft as a third QB should Mallett go elsewhere or we decide to let Fitz go. But once a part of the team, he would once again compete for his slot. I assume that Savage is safe, but his slot is not set. Fitz has equal chances of starting, backing up Savage or Mallett or being cut. But I suspect if both Mallett and Savage are healthy and signed, we might prefer a Keenum to Fitz as a third QB. I see no way Lewis is here for the season and maybe not for camp.

But I may be wrong. It's all probability while many think they are fortune tellers. I make no such claim.

The problem is that while many want to espouse Case's arm strength and mobility, his actual on field production and results are very Fitz-like. The question is really about if this team can afford to keep two Fitz'?

IMHO, if either Mallett or an FA/Trade/Savage starting for this team next season, can you really afford to not have Fitz as the backup? From an experience/mentoring/insurance point of view, isn't he the perfect backup for this team?

Of course, Fitz may not want to be a part of that if there is a chance he can start someplace else, but I just can't imagine that OB would purposefully roll into 2015 with two unprovens and a 2-8 Keenum.

 

[Number19]

Let's not be historical revisionists. Keenum gets credited with the win against the Ravens, but he put up less-than-Fitz type numbers while the defense put on a historic performance.

You can argue that coming in from the Rams PS, that was all he needed to do, and I wouldn't disagree with you. But in the end, Case didn't lose the game for the Texans. Considering that is basically how Fitz has been described all season, I am not sure how Case being Fitz 2.0 merits his inclusion in the Texans QB discussion. Especially since OB cut him before the season started and only brought him back when all three QB's in the roster got hurt.

Cutting Fitz and going with Case provides about $3m in badly needed cap space. This makes sense if OB is confident going forward with Mallett and Savage. This would not be a good deal for Case, denying him the opportunity to compete with another team, but I don't know if this will factor into the decision.

 

[sandman]

Cutting Fitz and going with Case provides about $3m in badly needed cap space. This makes sense if OB is confident going forward with Mallett and Savage. This would not be a good deal for Case, denying him the opportunity to compete with another team, but I don't know if this will factor into the decision.

First, I didn't think that the Texans cap space was so dire that dumping Fitz' contract was that important.

Second, Case was picked up off of the Rams' PS. Between the Texans and Rams, there were 5 QB's that started before either team looked to Case. Pretty sure the Texans know they hold the cards in this situation, regardless if Case thinks it is a good deal or not.

 

[infantrycak]

First, I didn't think that the Texans cap space was so dire that dumping Fitz' contract was that important.

It's not and the savings is more like $2.25 mil once you tender Keenum but it is a consideration.

 

[Number19]

The Texans have about $10m in cap space. We have 9 UFA's and I believe a total of 17FA's. We need to sign Jackson, Newton, Reed and Mallett. And we need to sign Dent, Pickett, Lewis and Manning. Plus fill out the roster with league minimum players. We probably need to find an additional $15m in cap space. Reworking contracts will get some of that, but still need to find a lot of cap.

 

[El Tejano]

The Texans have about $10m in cap space. We have 9 UFA's and I believe a total of 17FA's. We need to sign Jackson, Newton, Reed and Mallett. And we need to sign Dent, Pickett, Lewis and Manning. Plus fill out the roster with league minimum players. We probably need to find an additional $15m in cap space. Reworking contracts will get some of that, but still need to find a lot of cap.

Do we need to sign Reed?

 

[Number19]

Do we need to sign Reed?

No, but we would have to replace him with a FA or a draft pick. But my comment is not based on what we the fan would project but rather what I'm reading on what the Texans would like to do. My understanding is that they are giving a high priority to resigning Jackson, Mallett, Newton and Reed; as well as holding onto Johnathan Joseph.

 

[infantrycak]

It would be easy to create $7-8 mil in cap space extending JJo and Myers by 2 years.

 

[Seegara]

The Texans have about $10m in cap space. We have 9 UFA's and I believe a total of 17FA's. We need to sign Jackson, Newton, Reed, and Mallett. And we need to sign Dent, Pickett, Lewis, and Manning. Plus fill out the roster with league minimum players. We probably need to find an additional $15m in cap space. Reworking contracts will get some of that, but still need to find a lot of cap.

^(punctuation corrected)
I don't know if we can afford to keep Jackson.
I had a dream last night, that Savage is going to be another Tom Brady.

 

[Number19]

Plus, they will consider reworking Watts cap hit. But there is also a huge upside going forward if they keep his cap hit as it is. I believe, going forward, his cap hit would only be $13m a year through the end of his contract.

 

[infantrycak]

Plus, they will consider reworking Watts cap hit. But there is also a huge upside going forward if they keep his cap hit as it is. I believe, going forward, his cap hit would only be $13m a year through the end of his contract.

Correct, right now his next 4 seasons after this one would be $13 or under. He is due a $10 mil roster bonus this season so $8 mil could easily be converted and deferred to later years but that should be left as a last resort so that folks aren't looking to cut or trade him when he slows down to 15 sacks.

 

[steelbtexan]

Correct, right now his next 4 seasons after this one would be $13 or under. He is due a $10 mil roster bonus this season so $8 mil could easily be converted and deferred to later years but that should be left as a last resort so that folks aren't looking to cut or trade him when he slows down to 15 sacks.

Extending older guys like JoJo and Myers is what got the Texans in this position to begin with. it's time to bite the bullet. IMHO You can also create room by cutting Fitz and making AJ take a paycut.

What I would do to create the needed cap room is.

1. Cut Myers or a huge paycut.
2. Same as above with AJ.
3. Cut Fitz.

This would allow you to keep KJ/Reed/Newton/Lewis etc.... and probably add a couple of low cost FA's. Don't worry though the McNair's/Smith wont do this Texans fans.

 

[infantrycak]

Extending older guys like JoJo and Myers is what got the Texans in this position to begin with.

No it's not. But take a shot and give some examples.

I'll look at one for you. What had us tight in 2011?

Mario $16.2 mil
Dead money Okoye and Reeves $5 mil
Signings not extensions of not old - JJo, Manning, Antonio $17.1 mil
2nd contracts of not old - Myers, Ryans, OD, Winston $16.5 mil.

[AJ was a 28 year old playing with a $6.5 cap hit on his current contract]

Where are the extensions for old dudes?

And what I'm talking about is extending JJo to 32 and Myers to 35, neither of which is ancient for their position.

 

[JB]

It would be easy to create $7-8 mil in cap space extending JJo and Myers by 2 years.

You can also cut Graham, Fitz, and Demarris Johnson. Resign Fitz to a backup QB deal and have plenty of room to resign KJ, Newton and Reed along with the others.

I don't get this huge belief by many that we don't have cap room. Plenty of times (with much worse overall teams) people would have been ecstatic to have $10 million in cap room

 

[thunderkyss]

^(punctuation corrected)
I don't know if we can afford to keep Jackson.
I had a dream last night, that Savage is going to be another Tom Brandy.

fify

 

[steelbtexan]

No it's not. But take a shot and give some examples.

I'll look at one for you. What had us tight in 2011?

Mario $16.2 mil
Dead money Okoye and Reeves $5 mil
Signings not extensions of not old - JJo, Manning, Antonio $17.1 mil
2nd contracts of not old - Myers, Ryans, OD, Winston $16.5 mil.

[AJ was a 28 year old playing with a $6.5 cap hit on his current contract]

Where are the extensions for old dudes?

And what I'm talking about is extending JJo to 32 and Myers to 35, neither of which is ancient for their position.

I was thinking of the Robaire Smith's/Anthony Weaver's of the world.

 

[Troy Chapman]

You can also cut Graham, Fitz, and Demarris Johnson. Resign Fitz to a backup QB deal and have plenty of room to resign KJ, Newton and Reed along with the others.

I don't get this huge belief by many that we don't have cap room. Plenty of times (with much worse overall teams) people would have been ecstatic to have $10 million in cap room

Demarius is a RFA (no savings there) and Fitz is on a back up deal now. If Savage is ready for back up duty, then Fitz could be released outright. But I agree that Graham needs to be released.

 

[steelbtexan]

You can also cut Graham, Fitz, and Demarris Johnson. Resign Fitz to a backup QB deal and have plenty of room to resign KJ, Newton and Reed along with the others.

I don't get this huge belief by many that we don't have cap room. Plenty of times (with much worse overall teams) people would have been ecstatic to have $10 million in cap room

It's really only about 5 mil when you take signing draft picks into account. Which isn't enough to re-sign their own FA's. Much less add a competent TE/WR/LB in FA. I'm not even talking about high $$$$ FA's. I'm talking about the Niles Paul/Wes Welker/Justin Durant's.

 

[infantrycak]

I was thinking of the Robaire Smith's/Anthony Weaver's of the world.

Weaver was 25 and Robaire was 26 when they signed with us and neither lived out their first contract with us much less ever got an extension.

It's really only about 5 mil when you take signing draft picks into account. Which isn't enough to re-sign their own FA's. Much less add a competent TE/WR/LB in FA. I'm not even talking about high $$$$ FA's. I'm talking about the Niles Paul/Wes Welker/Justin Durant's.

Yeah it is with a few easy moves.

 

[JB]

Demarius is a RFA (no savings there) and Fitz is on a back up deal now. If Savage is ready for back up duty, then Fitz could be released outright. But I agree that Graham needs to be released.

Ok, I was looking at the cap simulator that said Johnson could be cut and would save 1.55 million. And Fitz would save 3.25 million if cut, could be resigned for a cap hit under 2 million

 

[steelbtexan]

Weaver was 25 and Robaire was 26 when they signed with us and neither lived out their first contract with us much less ever got an extension.



Yeah it is with a few easy moves.

Without kicking $$$$ down the road like they have done with AJ what are these easy moves?

I gave my thoughts on how to add cap $$$$. I would love to hear yours, maybe there's a 3rd way to go about managing the cap?

 

[ChampionTexan]

Extending older guys like JoJo and Myers is what got the Texans in this position to begin with.

I was thinking of the Robaire Smith's/Anthony Weaver's of the world.

You can't come up with a player who:

A. Signed a contract more recently than 10 years ago?

B. Was actually extended at some point in their time with the Texans?

 

[infantrycak]

Ok, I was looking at the cap simulator that said Johnson could be cut and would save 1.55 million. And Fitz would save 3.25 million if cut, could be resigned for a cap hit under 2 million

If they are projecting him in the cap then it is at the RFA tender level and not tendering him should bring that off whatever simulator you are looking at.

spotrac is projecting us (top 51) and with rookies signed with $10.9 mil cap space.

 

[JB]

If they are projecting him in the cap then it is at the RFA tender level and not tendering him should bring that off whatever simulator you are looking at.

spotrac is projecting us (top 51) and with rookies signed with $10.9 mil cap space.

Yeah I saw that, and with that much available we should be able to resign our guys plus add a Virgil Green type and a Welker type fa

 

[steelbtexan]

You can't come up with a player who:

A. Signed a contract more recently than 10 years ago?

B. Was actually extended at some point in their time with the Texans?

Sure I can

Coming off injury extended Schaub/Cushing/AJ.

 

[ChampionTexan]

Sure I can

Coming off injury extended Schaub/Cushing/AJ.

Cushing wasn't old (unless you consider just turning 26 as old), Schaub may be one that I'll concede (although it's also defendable if you wanted to), and My guess is that if you look at Andre's productivity compared to cost since that contract was signed, the vast majority of informed folks would say you do that again in a minute - in spite of where we are at this particular moment.

 

[thunderkyss]

Cushing wasn't old (unless you consider just turning 26 as old)

He moved the goal post again. He said coming off injury... this time.

 

[Troy Chapman]

Ok, I was looking at the cap simulator that said Johnson could be cut and would save 1.55 million. And Fitz would save 3.25 million if cut, could be resigned for a cap hit under 2 million

That's the FROR tender amount, I've seen the sim add in the tenders already for RFA's and ERFA's at the minimum amounts.

For the Top 51 purposes, it should only take about $3.25-.5m to sign the draft class.

 

[Number19]

Yeah I saw that, and with that much available we should be able to resign our guys plus add a Virgil Green type and a Welker type fa

Jackson, Mallett, Newton and Reed, just these four, are going to take, more or less, $20m, so we're $10m short already. But as pointed out, by restructuring a couple or three contracts it becomes managable.

 

[JB]

Jackson, Mallett, Newton and Reed, just these four, are going to take, more or less, $20m, so we're $10m short already. But as pointed out, by restructuring a couple or three contracts it becomes managable.

I don't agree that it would take $20M of cap room to sign those 4...

I'm not a capologist tho, so I could be wrong

 

[DX-TEX]

Jackson, Mallett, Newton and Reed, just these four, are going to take, more or less, $20m, so we're $10m short already. But as pointed out, by restructuring a couple or three contracts it becomes managable.

I wouldn't resign Reed. Need a good pass rusher at OLB.

 

[JB]

I wouldn't resign Reed. Need a good pass rusher at OLB.

Is there other SOLB in a 3-4 that put up big sack numbers?

I'm not thinking that Reed is asked to rush the passer much as his primary responsibility

 

[Marshall]

Extending older guys like JoJo and Myers is what got the Texans in this position to begin with. it's time to bite the bullet. IMHO You can also create room by cutting Fitz and making AJ take a paycut.

What I would do to create the needed cap room is.

1. Cut Myers or a huge paycut.
2. Same as above with AJ.
3. Cut Fitz.

This would allow you to keep KJ/Reed/Newton/Lewis etc.... and probably add a couple of low cost FA's. Don't worry though the McNair's/Smith wont do this Texans fans.

1. Who would you get that is better than Meyers for $6M, which is the net cap and salary relief? I don't think you'll find one at that price.

2. Same as above at 8.825M for AJ. (Not even considering the PR about retiring a Texan)

3. IF we sign Mallett, OK. If not, he's not that expensive as an experienced NFL starter IN OB's system and keeps us from handing the job to Savage too soon. I suspect the choice will be Fitz or Keenum, depending on whether we sign Mallett or a similar FA.

Fitz, Keenum and Savage is the fall back in case nothing else works out and I suspect it would be an open competition between the three. But Mallet would probably be a leading candidate to be starter going into training camp rather than one of three.

 

[infantrycak]

Jackson, Mallett, Newton and Reed, just these four, are going to take, more or less, $20m, so we're $10m short already. But as pointed out, by restructuring a couple or three contracts it becomes managable.

The cap hits on 1st years is commonly much lower.

For example:

RT Michael Oher signed a 4 yr $20 mil deal - year one cap hit of $3 mil.
DRC signed a 5 yr $35 mil deal - year one $2.75.
Ninkovitch 3 yr $15 mil deal - year one $2.85.

So $8.6 mil for those 3 combined as approximate deals.

 

[DX-TEX]

Is there other SOLB in a 3-4 that put up big sack numbers?

I'm not thinking that Reed is asked to rush the passer much as his primary responsibility

Orakpo on a prove it deal.

 

[Marshall]

You can also cut Graham, Fitz, and Demarris Johnson. Resign Fitz to a backup QB deal and have plenty of room to resign KJ, Newton and Reed along with the others.

I don't get this huge belief by many that we don't have cap room. Plenty of times (with much worse overall teams) people would have been ecstatic to have $10 million in cap room

Managing the Cap is not about having a ton of space every year as much as with keeping the space near the limit while having maximum flexibility to make improvements to the team.

I suspect that there are several players such as Watt who have already indicate a willingness to convert salary to bonuses as needed to free up Cap Space when needed, but will not do so if it leaves us too far from the minimum payroll and cash outlay requirements which are part of the collective bargaining agreement.

Teams with too much cap space could face sanctions if they fail to meet the bargaining agreement minimums.

 

[Number19]

The cap hits on 1st years is commonly much lower.

For example:

RT Michael Oher signed a 4 yr $20 mil deal - year one cap hit of $3 mil.
DRC signed a 5 yr $35 mil deal - year one $2.75.
Ninkovitch 3 yr $15 mil deal - year one $2.85.

So $8.6 mil for those 3 combined as approximate deals.

I wasn't aware of this and it certainly puts everything in a more positive perspective if we can work deals like this.

 

[Marshall]

The cap hits on 1st years is commonly much lower.

For example:

RT Michael Oher signed a 4 yr $20 mil deal - year one cap hit of $3 mil.
DRC signed a 5 yr $35 mil deal - year one $2.75.
Ninkovitch 3 yr $15 mil deal - year one $2.85.

So $8.6 mil for those 3 combined as approximate deals.

This is true. Cash and Cap numbers are far apart in the first year with the cash outlay being less divergent than the Cap numbers as signing bonuses are paid out immediately, but the Cap hit is spread over the contract (or at least the first five years for longer contracts).

But you still have to manage both the current year and future years and our future looks bright.

 

[JB]

Orakpo on a prove it deal.

Yes but Orakpo was asked to pressure the QB and not much else

 

[Troy Chapman]

Managing the Cap is not about having a ton of space every year as much as with keeping the space near the limit while having maximum flexibility to make improvements to the team.

I suspect that there are several players such as Watt who have already indicate a willingness to convert salary to bonuses as needed to free up Cap Space when needed, but will not do so if it leaves us too far from the minimum payroll and cash outlay requirements which are part of the collective bargaining agreement.

Teams with too much cap space could face sanctions if they fail to meet the bargaining agreement minimums.

And agents try to leverage higher salaries from those teams.

IMO a good number for space each season is about $15m.

I've said this before but I think the Texans will go into 2016 with very little carryover from 2015. Due to the amount of space they will have in 2016, there is no reason not to spend to the limit in 2015. And the team has some quality young players that will be RFA's in 2016.

 

[steelbtexan]

Jackson, Mallett, Newton and Reed, just these four, are going to take, more or less, $20m, so we're $10m short already. But as pointed out, by restructuring a couple or three contracts it becomes managable.

^^^^
This

Hopefully Rick has learned the value of not restructuring contracts. The only time you should restructure contracts is when you're close to a SB. The Texans are still very far far away from being SB contenders. IMHO

 

[steelbtexan]

And agents try to leverage higher salaries from those teams.

IMO a good number for space each season is about $15m.

I've said this before but I think the Texans will go into 2016 with very little carryover from 2015. Due to the amount of space they will have in 2016, there is no reason not to spend to the limit in 2015. And the team has some quality young players that will be RFA's in 2016.

Yep, 5 mil to draft picks and 10 mil to use in FA seems like a good plan to me.