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Save us Savage!!!!!!!

EllisUnit said:
Savage actually looked pretty good today.
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Seegara said:
In the second half.
Click to expand...

OK, both sort of "True". Here's the weird thing. We watched Savage play in a couple of games last year. He finished one for Os and the Texans won that (close game, barely won 21-20). He started one against Cincinnati (another close game, we barely won that 12-10), and then he started another one and got knocked out of it. Statistically he was "efficient" in all those games but not in any way dynamic. Efficient looked pretty good to us after watching Os all season but no TD's and each of those wins were games he kind of stayed out of the way in. His passer rating dropped each week from 85.4 to 79.1 and then he was sporting a 67.2 before he was concussed. The next game he started (week 1 against the Jaguars) was a 66.8 followed by another 66.4 and then a 55.4 against the Rams last week.

Passer ratings aren't the best way to rate a QB. They tell a pretty small portion of the story but that's a slide into a pretty consistent sea of suck. Mostly we've watched the guy hang on by a very thin thread and be unable to respond when he's screwed up. When he's made mistakes he seems to me like the kind of player who gets down on himself. They all say they don't but he seems to spiral down as one mistake leads to another. QB's and CB's have to be able to **** the bed and then go right back out there thinking about nothing but the next play and how they're gonna own it. Confidence is a fickle thing. When it leaves you it's gone and I think Savage's confidence has had one foot out the door since he got pulled with that concussion against Tennessee.

Then this week comes along and instead of his mistakes in the second quarter burying him he kind of seems to catch a break here and there and makes a few plays. End result is 22 of 32 for 230 yards and a 2 TD's to go with his INT. Passer rating is 97.1

Now I'm not trying to say that Savage is going to suddenly become somebody he isn't because he had a good game (or half a game) and got a little confidence. I am going to say that I've watched QB's play badly for stretches when they've been in a funk and sometimes they come out of it. What we saw today I'd never want for my starting QB but I think that if.... big IF (here let me put it in bold "IF") he can not get destroyed by Baltimore next week he might have a chance to build a little more confidence. Not like "season changing confidence or anything but I'd sure prefer watching the Tom Savage I saw today for the next 6 games than the one we've seen over the last couple of weeks. You know what I mean? Like "Just gimmie something to make me not want to claw my eyes out when you're on the field.... Please?". The Ravens are a .500 team and we're just one game off of that. Tennessee is just 2 games over .500 right now. These are not world beaters.

Our remaining schedule isn't that horrible. Probably have certain losses to the Steelers and Jaguars but the rest of those teams are not that far ahead of us. Ravens, Titans, 49ers, and Colts are all within reach if this guy Tom Savage can just settle down and play football the way he's capable. The protection hasn't been as bad as what he had in week one and it's not even been as bad as some of what Watson had to deal with. He seemed today to not be in near the panic he's been in. He almost seemed like the game was sort of slowing down for him just a little bit. Wouldn't that be nice? Just as the line appears to be getting a little bit of chemistry Tom settles down and starts seeing a little more of the field. Throwing like we know he can throw.

I'd rather watch this than 6 more weeks of him running in circles like a chicken with his head cut off.
 
Adam Wexler‏@awexlerKPRC
The Ravens (5-5) currently hold the final AFC wild card spot. The #Texans (4-6) are 1 game back and play at BAL next Monday night


tcvaAFE.gif
 
Hervoyel said:
OK, both sort of "True". Here's the weird thing. We watched Savage play in a couple of games last year. He finished one for Os and the Texans won that (close game, barely won 21-20). He started one against Cincinnati (another close game, we barely won that 12-10), and then he started another one and got knocked out of it. Statistically he was "efficient" in all those games but not in any way dynamic. Efficient looked pretty good to us after watching Os all season but no TD's and each of those wins were games he kind of stayed out of the way in. His passer rating dropped each week from 85.4 to 79.1 and then he was sporting a 67.2 before he was concussed. The next game he started (week 1 against the Jaguars) was a 66.8 followed by another 66.4 and then a 55.4 against the Rams last week.

Passer ratings aren't the best way to rate a QB. They tell a pretty small portion of the story but that's a slide into a pretty consistent sea of suck. Mostly we've watched the guy hang on by a very thin thread and be unable to respond when he's screwed up. When he's made mistakes he seems to me like the kind of player who gets down on himself. They all say they don't but he seems to spiral down as one mistake leads to another. QB's and CB's have to be able to **** the bed and then go right back out there thinking about nothing but the next play and how they're gonna own it. Confidence is a fickle thing. When it leaves you it's gone and I think Savage's confidence has had one foot out the door since he got pulled with that concussion against Tennessee.

Then this week comes along and instead of his mistakes in the second quarter burying him he kind of seems to catch a break here and there and makes a few plays. End result is 22 of 32 for 230 yards and a 2 TD's to go with his INT. Passer rating is 97.1

Now I'm not trying to say that Savage is going to suddenly become somebody he isn't because he had a good game (or half a game) and got a little confidence. I am going to say that I've watched QB's play badly for stretches when they've been in a funk and sometimes they come out of it. What we saw today I'd never want for my starting QB but I think that if.... big IF (here let me put it in bold "IF") he can not get destroyed by Baltimore next week he might have a chance to build a little more confidence. Not like "season changing confidence or anything but I'd sure prefer watching the Tom Savage I saw today for the next 6 games than the one we've seen over the last couple of weeks. You know what I mean? Like "Just gimmie something to make me not want to claw my eyes out when you're on the field.... Please?". The Ravens are a .500 team and we're just one game off of that. Tennessee is just 2 games over .500 right now. These are not world beaters.

Our remaining schedule isn't that horrible. Probably have certain losses to the Steelers and Jaguars but the rest of those teams are not that far ahead of us. Ravens, Titans, 49ers, and Colts are all within reach if this guy Tom Savage can just settle down and play football the way he's capable. The protection hasn't been as bad as what he had in week one and it's not even been as bad as some of what Watson had to deal with. He seemed today to not be in near the panic he's been in. He almost seemed like the game was sort of slowing down for him just a little bit. Wouldn't that be nice? Just as the line appears to be getting a little bit of chemistry Tom settles down and starts seeing a little more of the field. Throwing like we know he can throw.

I'd rather watch this than 6 more weeks of him running in circles like a chicken with his head cut off.
Click to expand...

The Texans beat a bad team, maybe they aren't as bad as I think they are. Nah, I'm fooling myself.
 
We are in no shape for the playoffs......... that said...... we should win out just to piss off the Browns. (Don't see it happening of course, but its fun to anger people. :kitten:)
 
Today's Savage was what I expected to see from the start of the season .... minus the strip sack once a week.

I think most of us would have been content with that type of play (minus the strip sack once a week) .... Before we saw Watson.

With that caliber of play , they are probably .500 +/- a game .... which is what most of us expected going into the season.


He wasn't bad , wasn't great .... just average. Which is better than we've had round here for a year or two ....
 
Didn't get a chance to see the game but nice to see Savage rebounded in the second half. Savage has had a rough go at becoming an NFL QB but the table hasn't ever really been set for "his personal" success.

It seems that Dak Prescott has had a big dose of reality smack him in his face. The Dallas OL has played down this season, Elliott has finally been suspended and the defense has made it tough for them to play with a lead. DP has looked pretty damn pedestrian in his last 2 outings. GB has no OL or running game and they look...whoops change that to "are"...very beatable each and every week. Oh, look at what an OL, running game and some confidence has done for Case Keenum's game. If this continues, the Texans might be able to sign Bridgewater since some feel we missed him the draft.

Regardless of how this season finishes, I'm guessing Savage will look to sign with a new organization. If he can successfully lead the Texans to a couple more victories, his confidence may lead him to a better opportunity. I'm still thinking that Beli and the Patriots will be his next home. It makes sense being that he's familiar enough with the offense to make the adjustment during a single off-season. They could get Savage for cheap which should appeal to Beli's financial side. I could see Brady and Savage having no problems working together since Savage is the consummate team player.

Sadly, I think Savage will want out of this turmoil by seasons end and probably holds some deep down animosity towards the way his development was handled from the FO to the HC.
 
banned1976 said:
Yeah, correcting others grammar, unless you're a teacher is a slippery slope. The more I write and study "real" authors the more I realize every major author in the history of the world has had their own grammatical errors.
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I once worked for a guy who loved to make grammatical corrections to my "Work Order Agreements" and when I added his corrections...he'd forget what his input was and correct his own corrections and ask me to re-submit it afterwards. This went for a couple of weeks and then I had had enough. He's a really good guy and we're friends to this day but I went and talked to the owner of the company and explained how much time was being wasted through correcting grammar to someone else's standards...so he decided to have all WOA come thru him for final approval.
 
steelbtexan said:
Unfortunately,

Just look at the last 12 yrs as a reference point.
Click to expand...

Dude, I really don't think you know what you're talking about. I'm sorry but I just think you like bitching about Rick and Bob and that no matter what does or doesn't happen you'll find a way to tell us that you've always been right and they've always been terrible people as owner and GM. Everything is their fault, nothing they try to do is enough or right, and every time someone gets injured or some improbably weird bounce of a ball goes the other teams way it's just another opening for you to go into "It's Rick's (or Bob's) fault...." mode. You are right about many of the details you point to but after a while it's just enough already and I find myself thinking that if you're that unhappy with it you should just walk away. I would. I have for brief periods of time. Sometimes it helped. Sometimes it didn't.

After a while though it just starts to feel like I've read the same post from you about 21,093 times. I know it's not true but you're seriously in broken record mode these days. I choose to try to have as much fun as I can with my sports entertainment choices as possible based on what I have to work with. Maybe it's the remains of the Astros "contact high" from winning the World Series. Maybe it's the Rockets being bought by Tillman and seeming to focus harder than ever on winning in their league but I'm just kind of burned out on more "It's Rick's (or Bob's) fault...." stuff. I'd rather ignore it than ***** about it. I'd rather find something else to do than get upset about it. There's nothing any of us can do but watch it play out and hope for the best. The negativity play-by-play and "See, I told you..." stuff isn't for me anymore. Instead I'll just walk away and rake leaves or something.

Adios!
 
Hervoyel said:
Dude, I really don't think you know what you're talking about. I'm sorry but I just think you like bitching about Rick and Bob and that no matter what does or doesn't happen you'll find a way to tell us that you've always been right and they've always been terrible people as owner and GM. Everything is their fault, nothing they try to do is enough or right, and every time someone gets injured or some improbably weird bounce of a ball goes the other teams way it's just another opening for you to go into "It's Rick's (or Bob's) fault...." mode. You are right about many of the details you point to but after a while it's just enough already and I find myself thinking that if you're that unhappy with it you should just walk away. I would. I have for brief periods of time. Sometimes it helped. Sometimes it didn't.

After a while though it just starts to feel like I've read the same post from you about 21,093 times. I know it's not true but you're seriously in broken record mode these days. I choose to try to have as much fun as I can with my sports entertainment choices as possible based on what I have to work with. Maybe it's the remains of the Astros "contact high" from winning the World Series. Maybe it's the Rockets being bought by Tillman and seeming to focus harder than ever on winning in their league but I'm just kind of burned out on more "It's Rick's (or Bob's) fault...." stuff. I'd rather ignore it than ***** about it. I'd rather find something else to do than get upset about it. There's nothing any of us can do but watch it play out and hope for the best. The negativity play-by-play and "See, I told you..." stuff isn't for me anymore. Instead I'll just walk away and rake leaves or something.

Adios!
Click to expand...

I've done that this season; just take a break and enjoy my day. At the end of the day none of us have control over players, calls, or injuries. I try to have fun and enjoy the game. It has been difficult at times and those times I just walk away. I apparently have a family that's pretty cool Monday thru Saturday and even Sundays too! "Sports entertainment" is the perfect way of putting it.
 
steelbtexan said:
Unfortunately,

Just look at the last 12 yrs as a reference point.
Click to expand...
For a fairly new franchise it is not a bad record.
Take heart and be positive for the future.
It looks like we have ourselves a franchise qb and that is the hardest piece to acquire.
We will still need to be patient and let them build a team around him now but in the meantime we should still see some good times for our Texans.
Just don’t expect them to look like the Patriots for 4 - 5 years at least.
 
Texansphan said:
For a fairly new franchise it is not a bad record.
Click to expand...

This what he ignores. Very few franchises had better success in this time period that were created in the SB era. Unreasonable expectations result in exaggerated disappointment.

Didn't
Falcons 2 playoffs
Panthers 4 playoffs
Bengals 4 playoffs
Browns 1 playoff
Seahawks 4 playoffs
Saints 0 playoffs
Buccaneers 3 playoffs

Did
Baltimore
Dolphins
Jaguars - Such quick success the rules were changed. Since Texans, less.
 
Hervoyel said:
Dude, I really don't think you know what you're talking about. I'm sorry but I just think you like bitching about Rick and Bob and that no matter what does or doesn't happen you'll find a way to tell us that you've always been right and they've always been terrible people as owner and GM. Everything is their fault, nothing they try to do is enough or right, and every time someone gets injured or some improbably weird bounce of a ball goes the other teams way it's just another opening for you to go into "It's Rick's (or Bob's) fault...." mode. You are right about many of the details you point to but after a while it's just enough already and I find myself thinking that if you're that unhappy with it you should just walk away. I would. I have for brief periods of time. Sometimes it helped. Sometimes it didn't.

After a while though it just starts to feel like I've read the same post from you about 21,093 times. I know it's not true but you're seriously in broken record mode these days. I choose to try to have as much fun as I can with my sports entertainment choices as possible based on what I have to work with. Maybe it's the remains of the Astros "contact high" from winning the World Series. Maybe it's the Rockets being bought by Tillman and seeming to focus harder than ever on winning in their league but I'm just kind of burned out on more "It's Rick's (or Bob's) fault...." stuff. I'd rather ignore it than ***** about it. I'd rather find something else to do than get upset about it. There's nothing any of us can do but watch it play out and hope for the best. The negativity play-by-play and "See, I told you..." stuff isn't for me anymore. Instead I'll just walk away and rake leaves or something.

Adios!
Click to expand...

Sorry it's not my fault that the Texans org isn't committed to winning. I'm actually enjoying this season quite a bit after seeing the Texans org fall flat on their collective faces, while the Stros win championships and the Rockets are doing everything they can to win a championship. Did the Texans do the same thing as the other franchises in this city this offseason? They are currently reaping the rewards of inaction and if you think I like the Texans franchise to operate the way they do you are dead wrong. I would love to eat crow, but it hasn't and wont happen anytime soon.

Sorry, if you dont care to hear the sad truth about the Texans org.
 
I can sort of see what O'Brien sees in Savage. . .if I cross my eyes and squint. . .he did play better yesterday, but dude has absolutely no pocket presence. He never saw, much less felt, the pressure for the strip sack.

Dude could probably be an average QB if he had an above-average line and lots of talent around him. I doubt that he's ever a full time starting QB, but lots of guys have made careers as backup QBs.
 
stingray said:
Speaking of another Pitt qb, glad Texans didn’t have any interest in Nathan Peterman.. He looked like dog **** yesterday.
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A few posters around here claimed he was going to be the steal, and criticized Rick Smith for giving up so much to take Deshaun Watson instead of drafting some O-Linemen in the 1st-3rd then take Peterman in the mid-late rounds. Of course, they’ll claim they never said that and say they always believed in Watson. Lol
 
Mangler said:
A few posters around here claimed he was going to be the steal, and criticized Rick Smith for giving up so much to take Deshaun Watson instead of drafting some O-Linemen in the 1st-3rd then take Peterman in the mid-late rounds. Of course, they’ll claim they never said that and say they always believed in Watson. Lol
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That wasn't me. :)

:coffee:
 
Mangler said:
A few posters around here claimed he was going to be the steal, and criticized Rick Smith for giving up so much to take Deshaun Watson instead of drafting some O-Linemen in the 1st-3rd then take Peterman in the mid-late rounds. Of course, they’ll claim they never said that and say they always believed in Watson. Lol
Click to expand...

It was one line of thinking...

let's give it the normal 3 years before we say definitely that it would have been the wrong path...

I really like Watson, but a couple stout OL and a decent qb might have been worthwhile, and we would have kept 2 or 3 high picks in a stocked draft
 
JB said:
It was one line of thinking...

let's give it the normal 3 years before we say definitely that it would have been the wrong path...

I really like Watson, but a couple stout OL and a decent qb might have been worthwhile, and we would have kept 2 or 3 high picks in a stocked draft
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Wasn’t the guy Denver took in the 1st supposed to be the most sought after Tackle? I forgot his name, I haven’t really kept up with Denver this year. I wonder how he’s been doing?

Anyway, maybe Smith will make a few moves to get back into at least the 2nd round. I doubt we can get back into the 1st, but then again Cleveland has several firsts and they always trade down. We need all the help we can get all over our offensive line, and secondary.
 
Mangler said:
A few posters around here claimed he was going to be the steal, and criticized Rick Smith for giving up so much to take Deshaun Watson instead of drafting some O-Linemen in the 1st-3rd then take Peterman in the mid-late rounds. Of course, they’ll claim they never said that and say they always believed in Watson. Lol
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i specifically remember that. I saw Peterman every other post. I'm not much of a film guy so I didn't have a preference for any QB but as a Bama fan and someone who kept up with Watson for two years I was thinking in the back of my head "Man, it would be cool if we drafted this guy"
 
Mangler said:
A few posters around here claimed he was going to be the steal, and criticized Rick Smith for giving up so much to take Deshaun Watson instead of drafting some O-Linemen in the 1st-3rd then take Peterman in the mid-late rounds. Of course, they’ll claim they never said that and say they always believed in Watson. Lol
Click to expand...

I didn't want any QB from last years draft. I just felt like the team didn't have an adequate OL...so why would I want to put the cart before the horse? Granted, Watson has established himself as an NFL QB but he was still playing behind subpar OL. I felt like an injury was going to be inevitable but I didn't expect it to happen in practice.

Some of the established QB's have hit hard times this season b/c of injuries to their OL and/or RB's. If the media gives those QB's a break b/c of their currrent situations....well damn, it's not like Savage has enjoyed QB'ing behind a Top5 OL or a top running game. Savage might progress a little more with additional starts but in all reality, that will be for another team to enjoy since I just don't see him re-signing with the Texans.

Watson is going to be great but I would like to see the organization ensure his success by giving him an OL that improves his pocket time, reduce his personal running plays, and create a running game that runs with the same authority to either side of the OL...problem, those solutions may not be readily available next season b/c of a weak FA group and the fact that the teams draft doesn't start until RD3.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
it's not like Savage has enjoyed QB'ing behind a Top5 OL or a top running game. Savage might progress a little more with additional starts but in all reality, that will be for another team to enjoy since I just don't see him re-signing with the Texans
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I agree completely, when the line gave him time he looked halfway decent(Also I'm not gonna lie, when he spun out of that sack and hit Anderson I almost fell out of my chair).

I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope that Savage is at least serviceable and I know I just tied steaks around my neck for the guys on this board but I think we can all agree that if we see second half Savage for the rest of the year(which I doubt) he can at least calm down some of the rioters
 
So it's kind of a weird season with not much to be excited about. How to stay entertained in the face of all this adversity...... Hmmmm....

What do you guys say we make a voting push to get Savage in the Pro Bowl?
 
Hervoyel said:
So it's kind of a weird season with not much to be excited about. How to stay entertained in the face of all this adversity...... Hmmmm....

What do you guys say we make a voting push to get Savage in the Pro Bowl?
Click to expand...
I'm down. if the Miami turnover chain can make a mock Heisman list then Savage can make a Pro Bowl list
 
adama51 said:
I agree completely, when the line gave him time he looked halfway decent(Also I'm not gonna lie, when he spun out of that sack and hit Anderson I almost fell out of my chair).

I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope that Savage is at least serviceable and I know I just tied steaks around my neck for the guys on this board but I think we can all agree that if we see second half Savage for the rest of the year(which I doubt) he can at least calm down some of the rioters
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IMO, every single fan should have that glimmer of hope. If Savage plays like he did last Sunday, the Texans have at least a puncher's chance of winning at least 4 more games. I'm counting the Jags (can't believe I just typed that) and the Steelers as straight up losses. 8-8 is about as good a record as I see the Texans ending up with.
 
steelbtexan said:
Sorry it's not my fault that the Texans org isn't committed to winning. I'm actually enjoying this season quite a bit after seeing the Texans org fall flat on their collective faces, while the Stros win championships and the Rockets are doing everything they can to win a championship. Did the Texans do the same thing as the other franchises in this city this offseason? They are currently reaping the rewards of inaction and if you think I like the Texans franchise to operate the way they do you are dead wrong. I would love to eat crow, but it hasn't and wont happen anytime soon.

Sorry, if you dont care to hear the sad truth about the Texans org.
Click to expand...

No, what we don’t care to hear, is your ignorance. They are committed to winning, you just don’t like the results. You act as if it’s their plan to not win. That’s how you come across, but are just to blind to see it.
 
Marcus said:
No, what we don’t care to hear, is your ignorance. They are committed to winning, you just don’t like the results. You act as if it’s their plan to not win. That’s how you come across, but are just to blind to see it.
Click to expand...

12 yrs and they will do well to win 5 games this yr. If they were serious about winning they would've participated in FA this yr.(So maybe just maybe they didn't do everything possible to put a winner on the field like the Vikings who had just as bad an OL last yr and no 1st rd pick but still managed to fix their OL. I said at the time that we would have a bad team this yr and knew that I would have to see ignorant posts like the one you just posted.

It's no fun to live in denial, accept the facts for what they are and hope for change. It's all we have to hope for as Texans fans, because I can assure you this regime may eventually make the playoffs with this group but they will never be true contenders.

I'm enjoying seeing the stadium with 45-50,000 fans in the seats and the rest staying home like I did last week. By the 4th qtr I will bet you there wasn't 35,000 fans still in the seats, but I dont know this as fact because I wasn't there. The Texans org are beginning to get what they deserve.

BTW, their plan is to make as much $$$$ as possible. (See FA this yr) Which they are one of the best in all of professional sports at doing. So if you look at it that way, they are one of the best at accomplishing their goals.
 
steelbtexan said:
Sorry it's not my fault that the Texans org isn't committed to winning. I'm actually enjoying this season quite a bit after seeing the Texans org fall flat on their collective faces, while the Stros win championships and the Rockets are doing everything they can to win a championship. Did the Texans do the same thing as the other franchises in this city this offseason? They are currently reaping the rewards of inaction and if you think I like the Texans franchise to operate the way they do you are dead wrong. I would love to eat crow, but it hasn't and wont happen anytime soon.

Sorry, if you dont care to hear the sad truth about the Texans org.
Click to expand...

Over the past 10 seasons, they have won more games than they lost. Weird way to show they don’t care about winning.
 
dream_team said:
Over the past 10 seasons, they have won more games than they lost. Weird way to show they don’t care about winning.
Click to expand...

Participation ribbons,

Tell me when they have ever been a true championship contender, and the whole if Schaub had just stayed healthy is just a convenient myth.
 
steelbtexan said:
Participation ribbons,

Tell me when they have ever been a true championship contender, and the whole if Schaub had just stayed healthy is just a convenient myth.
Click to expand...
tell me which team has been a contender without their franchise QB? I think that is where we have failed. We were content with thinking we could win with a good defense and any servicable QB. I think they built a contender minus the QB, and let's be honest, that is an art / luck, not science.
 
"...which team has been a contender without their franchise QB?"

Offhand, the Patriots immediately come to mind. The Vikings currently are contenders with QB3. The Cowboys lost Romo and inserted Dak, which worked out well for them.
 
infantrycak said:
This what he ignores. Very few franchises had better success in this time period that were created in the SB era. Unreasonable expectations result in exaggerated disappointment.

Didn't
Falcons 2 playoffs
Panthers 4 playoffs
Bengals 4 playoffs
Browns 1 playoff
Seahawks 4 playoffs
Saints 0 playoffs
Buccaneers 3 playoffs

Did
Baltimore
Dolphins
Jaguars - Such quick success the rules were changed. Since Texans, less.
Click to expand...

It would be interesting to look at the combined record of each teams’ divisional opponents during that stretch.

The Texans, since the Colts lost Peyton Manning, have usually been the best team in the division, but the division has been historically bad. Context is important.
 
dream_team said:
That’s a subjective question you can easily alter to fit whatever you believe. What makes a team a “true championship contender”?
Click to expand...

Look at the Pats/Steelers/Seahawks etc.. they may not win every yr, but it's not like they're just happy to be there. I consider a true contender to be a team that is hosting a conference championship game. Or has hosted a conference championship game and has a history of winning playoff games on the road. The Texans org fit neither of these criteria. Is this good enough for you to think I'm not being subjective?
 
Rich Schmidt said:
tell me which team has been a contender without their franchise QB? I think that is where we have failed. We were content with thinking we could win with a good defense and any servicable QB. I think they built a contender minus the QB, and let's be honest, that is an art / luck, not science.
Click to expand...

Tampa Bay/Baltimore unless you think Dilfer, Flacco were franchise QB's/ Denver, Manning certainly didn't play like a franchise QB in the playoffs/49ers made it but didn't win, Same with the Bears and Grossman
 
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