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Save us Savage!!!!!!!

Texas Jake said:
Many on this mb believe the Texan's have basically written Savage off as a serious option, and there is certainly evidence to support such an opinion, but I am not entirely convinced that is the case. I think the move to sign Brock may well have been more Rick and McNair pushing it and O'Brien conceding.
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Rick & Bob are the Texans. So is O'Brien. If O'Brien though Savage could start in this league (not necessarily win, but start... Romo style) they wouldn't have spent $32M on someone they never said two words to. Instead, if you had one guy in that group who though Savage could give us the stability we need at that position, we'd have kept Hoyer to "compete" with Savage & drafted a 2nd/3rd round QB like we thought they would.
 
Listened some to the triple threat on 610 this afternoon and they touched on something I brought up in the Watson thread last night -- in so many words, Watson can do things that Savage can't and they mentioned that the offense run for Watson reminded them of a Kubiak offense with a zone blocking scheme, naked boots and qb rollouts. I'm not sure if you guys are considering the fact that Watson is likely to have an entirely different game called for him than Savage would have called. The preseason should show which one the team is more adept at running. But I do predict that we're going to see that the OL will struggle more maintaining a pocket for Savage than they will blocking for Watson w/ a motion/rollout/play action offense that he's able to run because of his legs. If we had the cowboys OL -- Savage may have been our Dak and would probably hold onto the upper hand in the competition. But we don't -- I think poor OL play favors the offense Watson is able to run and it's why I think we'll see him start sooner than later.
 
The man bailed because of the pocket broke its containment. I can't believe some are actually using him buying time means he's not read beat teams with his passes. Wow that's some serious over analyzing to the 100 degree. I seen several times where he stood in the pocket going through his progression. Unfortunately his receivers couldn't get open.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm going to assume you wrote this before seeing my other post. I want to see Watson get the ball out on time much more consistently than what we saw last night before he starts. I think he has a long way to go.
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But what quarterback gets the ball out on time consistently. Especially if the receivers are not open because of great coverage. Or if he's being pressured?


Everything has to factored
 
Texansballer74 said:
What !! How isn't he ready again? Now I really hope he starts day one so he could prove and shut you naysayers up.
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Pretty strong response.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. Whoever starts, starts. If it's Watson, and he's great, awesome. If he starts and he doesn't do well at all, he'll get replaced. Same thing if Savage starts and he screws the pooch. The only question would be, can these guys handle being benched? Savage for certain is used to disappointment. And I'm sure he knows he has one foot out of the door. And Watson knows he's the future.
 
Max said:
Listened some to the triple threat on 610 this afternoon and they touched on something I brought up in the Watson thread last night -- in so many words, Watson can do things that Savage can't and they mentioned that the offense run for Watson reminded them of a Kubiak offense with a zone blocking scheme, naked boots and qb rollouts. I'm not sure if you guys are considering the fact that Watson is likely to have an entirely different game called for him than Savage would have called. The preseason should show which one the team is more adept at running. But I do predict that we're going to see that the OL will struggle more maintaining a pocket for Savage than they will blocking for Watson w/ a motion/rollout/play action offense that he's able to run because of his legs. If we had the cowboys OL -- Savage may have been our Dak and would probably hold onto the upper hand in the competition. But we don't -- I think poor OL play favors the offense Watson is able to run and it's why I think we'll see him start sooner than later.
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On Savage's third series, they went with the same game plan they had for Watson.
 
Max said:
Listened some to the triple threat on 610 this afternoon and they touched on something I brought up in the Watson thread last night -- in so many words, Watson can do things that Savage can't and they mentioned that the offense run for Watson reminded them of a Kubiak offense with a zone blocking scheme, naked boots and qb rollouts.
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And this is where I call the guys on 610 dumbasses. A naked boot is not the defining aspect. What defined Kubiak was running the whole thing identically whether it was a zone stretch left or a naked boot right. That zone stretch looking identical (plus a fantastic play fake) is what let Brontasaurus Schaub naked bootleg right with the cameramen and D ten kinds of confused. Miller, or anyone, up the gut doesn't get you the same thing. And your QB has to be taught the same deception and roll out even on the rushing plays. You can't roll out only when you still have the ball.
 
Texansballer74 said:
But what quarterback gets the ball out on time consistently. Especially if the receivers are not open because of great coverage. Or if he's being pressured?


Everything has to factored
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My other post was more detailed.

& I didn't say consistently (though it is possible) I said more consistently than last night.
 
Mollywhopper said:
I'm not sure reading this how much of the game you got to watch, but just to give a heads up ... Watson did make throws from the pocket within the offense. He even moved the chains doing so, and as another poster (bah) pointed out earlier he did so while executing blitz pick up presnap and hot read post snap.

Like I said though, just a heads up from the idea that all he showed he can do is run around and make plays with his feet.
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the biggest play of the night was him scrambling for a 15 yd TD.... Double pumping on throws shows he's not sure of what he's seeing...bailing out of the pocket prematurely at times..throwing off his back foot...& when u factor in he was doing all this against 2's and 3's in a preseason game ........where the defense hadn't even game planned for him and the offense yet........he's not ready to beat teams from the pocket just yet. He needs to be out there thinking less about the "complexities" of the playbook and his footwork & mechanics & he's got a lot of work to do in that area....he's raw & he doesn't need to be out there trying to learn that stuff on the fly.

Yes I'm aware this was his 1st ever game action on this level... But that doesn't change all of the above.
 
People have it wrong about Savage His biggest issue imo isn't that he holds onto the ball too long... It's that his pocket awareness is lacking. He's got to learn to make those little shuffles here & there within the pocket like Brady and other greats.
 
Mr teX said:
the biggest play of the night was him scrambling for a 15 yd TD.... Double pumping on throws shows he's not sure of what he's seeing...bailing out of the pocket prematurely at times..throwing off his back foot...& when u factor in he was doing all this against 2's and 3's in a preseason game ........where the defense hadn't even game planned for him and the offense yet........he's not ready to beat teams from the pocket just yet. He needs to be out there thinking less about the "complexities" of the playbook and his footwork & mechanics & he's got a lot of work to do in that area....he's raw & he doesn't need to be out there trying to learn that stuff on the fly.

Yes I'm aware this was his 1st ever game action on this level... But that doesn't change all of the above.
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Soooo, just completely blow off what I said ... ok, nice talking with ya.
 
Mr teX said:
the biggest play of the night was him scrambling for a 15 yd TD.... Double pumping on throws shows he's not sure of what he's seeing...bailing out of the pocket prematurely at times..throwing off his back foot...& when u factor in he was doing all this against 2's and 3's in a preseason game ........where the defense hadn't even game planned for him and the offense yet........he's not ready to beat teams from the pocket just yet. He needs to be out there thinking less about the "complexities" of the playbook and his footwork & mechanics & he's got a lot of work to do in that area....he's raw & he doesn't need to be out there trying to learn that stuff on the fly.

Yes I'm aware this was his 1st ever game action on this level... But that doesn't change all of the above.
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He pumped fake to get his receivers open. Something we see Aaron Rodgers do all the time.
 
Mr teX said:
People have it wrong about Savage His biggest issue imo isn't that he holds onto the ball too long... It's that his pocket awareness is lacking. He's got to learn to make those little shuffles here & there within the pocket like Brady and other greats.
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Savage's biggest problem is only a few TT.com posters & his immediate family believe he can be something special.
 
thunderkyss said:
Rick & Bob are the Texans. So is O'Brien. If O'Brien though Savage could start in this league (not necessarily win, but start... Romo style) they wouldn't have spent $32M on someone they never said two words to. Instead, if you had one guy in that group who though Savage could give us the stability we need at that position, we'd have kept Hoyer to "compete" with Savage & drafted a 2nd/3rd round QB like we thought they would.
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After the KC playoff debacle, I don't think keeping Hoyer the Destroyer was an option.

I like the Watson pick and think he could be something special and obviously the Texans feel the same way. I am old school and like the idea of sitting the rookie a year. That is how it was done back in the 70's when I started watching the NFL and 34 had his rookie season. I would also like to know exactly what we have in Savage before we move on and believe he gives us the best chance to win this year. By the end of preseason we will have a better idea if this is true. Watson is coming on fast and I don't see how this will not be his team next year unless Tom shows he is something really special this year and can stay on field.
 
thunderkyss said:
We should define "struggle." If we're saying he's met with failures after failure due in part to his "struggle" (like Aikman or Peyton), I'd rather Savage takes all those. If we're talking struggle like winning games off of solid defense, & a heck of a kicking game... Watson.

If I felt Watson could convert third downs in the 4th qtr, the way Keenum couldn't, I'd start him.

If I felt like we need gimmicks to move the ball on offense... I wouldn't.

But.. If O'b makes the wrong decision & starts Watson when he isn't ready, he's got to ride it out like he did with Osweiler.
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100% agree here. Now we're back to that confidence thing and while we've seen O'Brien play this back and forth game with QB's before with Mallett and Hoyer that was completely different (and still did a disservice to both of them). Doing it to a rookie QB is a quick way to screw up his mojo before he even gets going.
 
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Max said:
Listened some to the triple threat on 610 this afternoon and they touched on something I brought up in the Watson thread last night -- in so many words, Watson can do things that Savage can't and they mentioned that the offense run for Watson reminded them of a Kubiak offense with a zone blocking scheme, naked boots and qb rollouts. I'm not sure if you guys are considering the fact that Watson is likely to have an entirely different game called for him than Savage would have called. The preseason should show which one the team is more adept at running. But I do predict that we're going to see that the OL will struggle more maintaining a pocket for Savage than they will blocking for Watson w/ a motion/rollout/play action offense that he's able to run because of his legs. If we had the cowboys OL -- Savage may have been our Dak and would probably hold onto the upper hand in the competition. But we don't -- I think poor OL play favors the offense Watson is able to run and it's why I think we'll see him start sooner than later.
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That approach only works until defenses shut off Watson's escape lanes and force him to make hurried reads from within a tight pocket. Teams figured out how to stop Vick after his first season and they can do so even quicker today now that its been done. The Texans have dropped the ball once again by not putting enough emphasis on their OL.

If I had one question to both O'Brien and RS....and it must be answered 100% honestly; then I would ask, which of you thought the OL personnel coming into 2017 was top shelf talent and would improve the overall results offensively?

Savage was more than capable of covering for a poor OL when O'Brien went to their hurry-up or no-huddle offense. It is in the playbook so maybe this is what works for Savage. Watson appears to be more comfortable in a PA, Roll-Out style offense that would rely on a ZBS by the OL...that was primarily Kubiak's system, just not sure how much this system coincides with O'Brien's. In both situations, the offenses these guys feel more comfortable in are not gimmicks but are employed by teams throughout the league. NE game cannot get here quick enough for additional evaluation.
 
Max said:
Listened some to the triple threat on 610 this afternoon and they touched on something I brought up in the Watson thread last night -- in so many words, Watson can do things that Savage can't and they mentioned that the offense run for Watson reminded them of a Kubiak offense with a zone blocking scheme, naked boots and qb rollouts. I'm not sure if you guys are considering the fact that Watson is likely to have an entirely different game called for him than Savage would have called. The preseason should show which one the team is more adept at running. But I do predict that we're going to see that the OL will struggle more maintaining a pocket for Savage than they will blocking for Watson w/ a motion/rollout/play action offense that he's able to run because of his legs. If we had the cowboys OL -- Savage may have been our Dak and would probably hold onto the upper hand in the competition. But we don't -- I think poor OL play favors the offense Watson is able to run and it's why I think we'll see him start sooner than later.
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I pointed out yesterday that the difference in styles would "color" the discussion between the two, without going into the detail. And your post is spot on. Put me on the side that would prefer to sit a rookie for a year, but I've also made clear that the SuperBowl is the highest priority. And our offensive line is our weakest link. As you point out, and I agree, our OL may be better suited to a mobile QB, rather than a pocket QB and this may dictate who ends up the starter. Savage starts game one, but if our OL can't protect the pocket, we'll have to change our blocking and change our QB. But it will not be dictated on a Savage/Watson competition, because as I stated the two different styles can't be directly compared, the change will be dictated by OL decisions.
 
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And as OptimisticTexan points out, a hurry up no huddle offense is how Savage can compensate for the OL.

Both these posts are excellent in pointing out how our OL may be dictating coaching decisions and how we can compensate for our OL deficiencies.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
That approach only works until defenses shut off Watson's escape lanes and force him to make hurried reads from within a tight pocket. Teams figured out how to stop Vick after his first season and they can do so even quicker today now that its been done. The Texans have dropped the ball once again by not putting enough emphasis on their OL.
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I was never a Vick fan but damn figured out how to shut him down after his 1st year. Lol, are you high? He had over 900 yds rushing his 4th year and over 1000 yds his 6th. Wtf was he going to do if not figured out?
 
infantrycak said:
If we had an experienced solid vet, a healthy Schaub level QB, I could see sitting Watson. But we don't. It'd be a miracle for Savage to take us to the SB. So take your lumps this year and have Watson ready and experienced as possible for next year.
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OK that strategy makes a lot of sense, however I kinda doubt that Billy goes that way because his instincts probably make him more inclined to go with the QB who's got more familiarity with his offense even though Savage is really not vey experienced as an NFL starter.
By comparison the Chiefs, who also used multiple first round draft picks on a QB this year have the luxury of sitting MaHomes because they've got a highly seasoned starting QB in Alex Smith on their roster.
 
thunderkyss said:
Rick & Bob are the Texans. So is O'Brien. If O'Brien though Savage could start in this league (not necessarily win, but start... Romo style) they wouldn't have spent $32M on someone they never said two words to. Instead, if you had one guy in that group who though Savage could give us the stability we need at that position, we'd have kept Hoyer to "compete" with Savage & drafted a 2nd/3rd round QB like we thought they would.
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Maybe upper mgmt said go out and get a QB who has experience (Os) after the Hoyer debacle, so regardless if BOB wanted to start Savage from beginning he wasn't allowed to do what would've been the most prudent thing to do.
 
Texansballer74 said:
He pumped fake to get his receivers open. Something we see Aaron Rodgers do all the time.
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Cmon man....While that's a valid reason u see qbs do that at times....as you pointed out Rodgers does it all the time, it's extremely unlikely Watson did it for that for that reason.

In the instance you're speaking of its more of a savy veteran move used on double move routes on the outside....he did it on a button hook route to his TE....in the middle of the freaking field....
 
I remember driving on the Sam Houston Ship Channel Bridge when I heard the Texans drafted Savage and wanted to drive my car into the ship channel. But people kept reminding...look at that arm on Savage. He's a special talent. I didn't see it then and I don't see it now. But I was reminded...there's more to the team than the QB. All he needs to do is manage the game. He's going to have to do more than that to hold back Watson. He can't be happy with par. He's going to have to score some birdies.
 
infantrycak said:
I was never a Vick fan but damn figured out how to shut him down after his 1st year. Lol, are you high? He had over 900 yds rushing his 4th year and over 1000 yds his 6th. Wtf was he going to do if not figured out?
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Thank you. I was going to reply back to that post but decided against it. Vick was for a moment the face of the league. He was pure electricity. I must have missed the figured him out part...as did the NFL.
 
PapaL said:
Thank you. I was going to reply back to that post but decided against it. Vick was for a moment the face of the league. He was pure electricity. I must have missed the figured him out part...as did the NFL.
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If Vick never gets in trouble with that dog fighting stuff, he could have had a much better career. Gotta cut ties from toxic friends when you go big time. Vick is a prime example of Chappelle's, "When keeping it real goes wrong"
 
Perki-Perk said:
If Vick never gets in trouble with that dog fighting stuff, he could have had a much better career. Gotta cut ties from toxic friends when you go big time. Vick is a prime example of Chappelle's, "When keeping it real goes wrong"
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Shows the difference between Ray Lewis type of friends and Mike Vick type of friends. Ray's guys took the fall and disposed of any evidence; I'm sure their bank accounts also increased in size. We all know what happened with Vick.
 
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PapaL said:
Thank you. I was going to reply back to that post but decided against it. Vick was for a moment the face of the league. He was pure electricity. I must have missed the figured him out part...as did the NFL.
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People don't wanna admit that in light of his off the field transgressions, but this is true & he was the definition of a generational talent. Rare if ever in the NFL was the qb the fastest guy on the field until him. Had a cannon arm too. So i don't necessarily buy that he was shut down. As I-cak pointed out he was still rushing for 900+ yds after teams "figured" him out & for a long time after his 1st year teams feared his game breaking ability. But he's also the poster child for his skill rushing the ball impeding his development as a passer.
 
Teams "figured out" that you couldn't ever completely contain him so they instead tried to take his weapons away and tried to make him beat them by himself. This wasn't exactly a runaway success but then the law took him off the field for his dog fighting transgressions and settled the issue more or less for good.
 
infantrycak said:
I was never a Vick fan but damn figured out how to shut him down after his 1st year. Lol, are you high? He had over 900 yds rushing his 4th year and over 1000 yds his 6th. Wtf was he going to do if not figured out?
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All true, but Vick never averaged as many as 10 carries per game for any season including those. Thus Texian would define Vick as a classic Pocket Passer.
 
Mr teX said:
Cmon man....While that's a valid reason u see qbs do that at times....as you pointed out Rodgers does it all the time, it's extremely unlikely Watson did it for that for that reason.

In the instance you're speaking of its more of a savy veteran move used on double move routes on the outside....he did it on a button hook route to his TE....in the middle of the freaking field....
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Please go back and look at that particular play again. His receiver didn't come open until he pump fake the defender. Defender thought he was going to tuck it and run.

Mr. T stop over analyzing please.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Please go back and look at that particular play again. His receiver didn't come open until he pump fake the defender. Defender thought he was going to tuck it and run.

Mr. T stop over analyzing please.
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lol I think it's u who needs to go back and watch the play and the 1 over analyzing and giving the kid too much credit. no defender, the 1 coming at him nor the 1 covering the TE thought he was running...it was just an unnecessary pump fake

Watson himself was standing flat footed when he made the throw..there was no threat of him running at all.

There's no bias at all...
 
Thought this was the Savage thread....

Hmmmm, must of been packed with the wrong label.

Just in case it is the right thread, if and when Savage loses the starter spot, I feel pretty confident with Savage as back up QB.
 
Watson puts excitement back into the QB position. Savage so far brings no INTs and no fumbles. 9 of 11 passes 69 yards at almost 8 yards is workable but not certain if that would project over four quarters. Ball control I think is what O'Brien wants. We have talked for long time about having offense that doesn't turn over the ball. It does take much more than that but IMO starter job for now is Savage's for Watson to take away. All of have wanted true competition and we have it. It is good we have more than week to coach before next game.

Let's not forget that neither QB played much with what would be our #1 offensive players. Also full games out of our defensive first stringers will impact our offense tremendously. No panic but no Super Bowl band wagon yet.
 
Mr teX said:
lol I think it's u who needs to go back and watch the play and the 1 over analyzing and giving the kid too much credit. no defender, the 1 coming at him nor the 1 covering the TE thought he was running...it was just an unnecessary pump fake

Watson himself was standing flat footed when he made the throw..there was no threat of him running at all.

There's no bias at all...
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Even though he threw off his back foot, it was still completed. Again that pump fake allowed his receiver to get some seperation. I really don't understand why you are complaining or being so critical on a veteran type play. If anything you should be given him praise.

Who is given him to much credit. He made some good plays/decision and had some bad plays.
 
badboy said:
Watson puts excitement back into the QB position. Savage so far brings no INTs and no fumbles. 9 of 11 passes 69 yards at almost 8 yards is workable but not certain if that would project over four quarters. Ball control I think is what O'Brien wants. We have talked for long time about having offense that doesn't turn over the ball. It does take much more than that but IMO starter job for now is Savage's for Watson to take away. All of have wanted true competition and we have it. It is good we have more than week to coach before next game.

Let's not forget that neither QB played much with what would be our #1 offensive players. Also full games out of our defensive first stringers will impact our offense tremendously. No panic but no Super Bowl band wagon yet.
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Is OB an offensive coach who doesn't really like offense?

That's not rhetorical.

He was a DE and LB as a player. Can a leopard change its spots? Clearly they can, Tom Landry (actually great football player) and Jimmy Johnson were both D. But can OB?

Why change from a ZBS that worked?

Why abandon the 5-15 between the hashes? That's anti-NE.

Why watch your OC drive your 'multiple offense' off a cliff?

_______

Has OB done anything other than watch a good D?
 
Mr teX said:
lol I think it's u who needs to go back and watch the play and the 1 over analyzing and giving the kid too much credit. no defender, the 1 coming at him nor the 1 covering the TE thought he was running...it was just an unnecessary pump fake

Watson himself was standing flat footed when he made the throw..there was no threat of him running at all.

There's no bias at all...
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Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
infantrycak said:
Is OB an offensive coach who doesn't really like offense?

That's not rhetorical.

He was a DE and LB as a player. Can a leopard change its spots? Clearly they can, Tom Landry (actually great football player) and Jimmy Johnson were both D. But can OB?

Why change from a ZBS that worked?

Why abandon the 5-15 between the hashes? That's anti-NE.

Why watch your OC drive your 'multiple offense off a cliff?

_______

Has OB done anything other than watch a good D?
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I am not much of an O'Brien fan and have seen nothing indicating he can run his own offensive play book. I prefer a 'power' vs ZBS but not sure we have players for either one TBH. As for 'multiple offense', I much rather he had may be 10 plays and ran them correctly then add as possible. I wish we had a Vrabel as OC.

I was extremely disappointed in how he utilized Lamar Miller last season. This is season O'Brien needs to ramp it up. I, as I am sure you are, am not going to get to concerned until game one when we should have better understanding of whom we will be playing at what positions.
 
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OptimisticTexan said:
Watson appears to be more comfortable in a PA, Roll-Out style offense that would rely on a ZBS by the OL...
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Kubiak didn't/doesn't have a monopoly on zone blocking.

Lots of teams incorporate zone blocking in there schemes.

A lot of teams incorporate play action without zone blocking.

A lot of teams roll their QBs out, withou zone blocking.
 
steelbtexan said:
Maybe upper mgmt said go out and get a QB who has experience (Os) after the Hoyer debacle, so regardless if BOB wanted to start Savage from beginning he wasn't allowed to do what would've been the most prudent thing to do.
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If Bill O'Brien isn't allowed to play who he wants to play, he's not the coach we need. Can you imagine if someone said, "John Harbaugh wasn't allowed to do what he thought best."

Or, "Mike Tomlin doesn't have a say on who starts at QB."

So in my mind O'Brien is either complicit in every QB decision made since he's been here, or he's the spineless sycophant you think Rick Smith is... actually a rung lower.

I don't understand why you'd defend a spineless sycophant.

So I have to believe he's as complicit as the rest of them.
 
badboy said:
I am not much of an O'Brien fan and have seen nothing indicating he can run his own offensive play book. I prefer a 'power' vs ZBS but not sure we have players for either one TBH..
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We've got some meat on that OL. Brown, X, Allen.
 
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