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Pitre makes ALL ROOKIE D!

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
So you're telling me Lovie ran to Cal and told him he wanted Stingley but Nick wants Sauce, do something? If that's the case then this franchise is worse off than the most pessimistic of us could even dream of. Why is Nick even here then? And Cal says he's going to be more involved? This has such a Lions of the last 50 years feel to it.

It's much more believable to me that Nick tried to show off his smartness, overthought it and ignored all the red flags and went with Stingley. I mean this is the same guy who has given up 6 picks to draft 2 WRs the last 2 drafts, moved up twice to get a LB who can't even get on the field with as bad as the Texans LBs have been. He's also yet to draft a player from a non-power 5 school, which Sauce was from. So I'm not convinced Sauce was even on their board. They were going with Stingley no matter what. Lovie may have wanted that too, but I don't believe for a second he was the difference maker or the one running to Cal to decide.
Let me repeat what I said:
"That could have been how the Texans '22 Draft went down but I can't say with
certainty it's what happened, it's just an explanation for what could have happened."
 

BullRushTX

Frequently bemused
like it or not, thats what the league is these days for DB’s. They get the big bucks to cover guys, not to tackle. They’re not getting drafted top 5 for their tackling skills. Its 1 thing to “know” how to tackle. Its another to be asked to be a Psuedo-LB play in play out.

Top db’s of yester year wore pads everywhere and as big of pads as their frame could accommodate to brace for all that physicality.

View attachment 11494
View attachment 11495

today’s top db’s? Direct opposite. Wear as little pads & the smallest they can get away with. Which is funny b/c these guys on average are smaller period.

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I loved watching Steve Atwater play. He was punishing. In today's league he'd best work as a LB.
 

BullRushTX

Frequently bemused
This is why I want MLB, Jack Campbell (Iowa) on this defense in 2023. He’s a 6-5 246 lb form tackling machine who could take a lot of work off Pitre’s plate. This could be further improved by adding physical but big safety types like a SS, Antonio Johnson (Texas A&M / 6-3 @ 200 lbs) or a SS, JL Skinner (Boise State / 6-4 @ 220 lbs). Stingley and Pitre could become far more effective with 2 additions like this.

On a side note, Sauce Gardner made 75 tackles with 51 being solo. Jalen Pitre made 147 tackles with 99 being solo. He missed 21 tackles, which still put him in the play from a physical standpoint. Just wondering how Sauce’s season would’ve gone had he been required to play MLB like Pitre did?
I'd be happy with those selections.

RE Pitre: Out of 168 potential tackles, he missed 12.5%, or 1 in 8 tackles. I wonder what the average number is for players who had at least 150 potential tackles.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
So you're telling me Lovie ran to Cal and told him he wanted Stingley but Nick wants Sauce, do something? If that's the case then this franchise is worse off than the most pessimistic of us could even dream of. Why is Nick even here then? And Cal says he's going to be more involved? This has such a Lions of the last 50 years feel to it.

It's much more believable to me that Nick tried to show off his smartness, overthought it and ignored all the red flags and went with Stingley. I mean this is the same guy who has given up 6 picks to draft 2 WRs the last 2 drafts, moved up twice to get a LB who can't even get on the field with as bad as the Texans LBs have been. He's also yet to draft a player from a non-power 5 school, which Sauce was from. So I'm not convinced Sauce was even on their board. They were going with Stingley no matter what. Lovie may have wanted that too, but I don't believe for a second he was the difference maker or the one running to Cal to decide.
Cal promised Lovie the 1st pick to get him to take the HC job. Lovie worked out both Stingley and Sauce and chose Stingley. Very simple and yes as of right now ownership is rudderless and grasping at straws. I mean Cal's wife is having to help him with interviews for god's sake. That alone should tell you the state of the franchise.

Hopefully Cal let's Caserio hire his guy during this hiring cycle and doesn't succumb to fan pressure.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
like it or not, thats what the league is these days for DB’s. They get the big bucks to cover guys, not to tackle. They’re not getting drafted top 5 for their tackling skills. Its 1 thing to “know” how to tackle. Its another to be asked to be a Psuedo-LB play in play out.

Top db’s of yester year wore pads everywhere and as big of pads as their frame could accommodate to brace for all that physicality.

View attachment 11494
View attachment 11495

today’s top db’s? Direct opposite. Wear as little pads & the smallest they can get away with. Which is funny b/c these guys on average are smaller period.

View attachment 11493
View attachment 11496
Pitre had missed more tackles than Kareem Jackson in his first seven years COMBINED.

Here's the 183-yd Jackson taking down Travis Kelce who had 70lbs on him.

 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Granted, Pitre has to tackle about twice as much as Jackson (who played mostly at CB), but that still means Pitre missed more tackles than Jackson in three plus year.
 

SnakeEyes

Under NRG
I still wish Sam Williams was the pick at 35.

If Neal wasn't going to be the pick then I wanted Sauce. I put Sauce #1 in my last mock

I was with Texian and LeeBig in wanting Pickens over Metchie.

How would you have felt about a draft of

Sauce
Davis
Williams
Pickens
Pierce
Harris

It could've and should've happened. Although I still liked the last draft, it could've been better.

IF Stingley gets hurt next year, we might very well call him a bust. At 1-3...I would think most of us would call last draft good, minus our 1st round bust.
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
According to Stathead, for players this year with over 75 tackles, sorted by missed tackle percentage (# missed/(#missed + # combined made)):

1. Kareem Jackson, DEN, 16 missed, 94 made for 14.5%
2. Rayshawn Jenkins, JAX, 18-116 for 13.4%
3. Matt Milano, BUF, 13-99 for 11.6%
4. Jalen Pitre, HOU, 19-147 for 11.4%
5. Budda Baker, ARI, 14-111 for 11.2%
6. Devin Lloyd, JAX, 14-115 for 10.9%
7. David Long, TEN, 10-86 for 10.4%
8. Nick Scott, LAR, 10-86 for 10.4%
9. Deommodore Lenoire, SFO, 9-79 for 10.2%
10.Eddie Jackson, CHI, 9-80 for 10.1%
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
well, those are some facts that are going to impact some narratives....
What narratives?

I was comparing Pitre with Kareem Jackson's first seven years.

I wasn't comparing Pitre with a 34-yr old Jackson that has been through a lot of wear and tears.

For a guy like Jackson, at his age, to be able to play all 17 games this year, and who only missed about one game each year, the way he has been playing; that's another story.

KJ was supposed to be replaced by one of the younger players on the Broncos roster.
He was supposed to be slowly fading into the sunset, just providing veteran leadership to the young guys.
Afterall, he only signed a one-year contract this year for that reason.
He wasn't supposed to start all 17 games for the Broncos, let alone playing nearly every defensive snaps.

He played 99.56% the number of defensive snaps (most on the team).

If you don't know how big that is on a top ten defense despite an offense that ranks last in point scored, I don't know what else to tell you.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
According to Stathead, for players this year with over 75 tackles, sorted by missed tackle percentage (# missed/(#missed + # combined made)):

1. Kareem Jackson, DEN, 16 missed, 94 made for 14.5%
2. Rayshawn Jenkins, JAX, 18-116 for 13.4%
3. Matt Milano, BUF, 13-99 for 11.6%
4. Jalen Pitre, HOU, 19-147 for 11.4%
5. Budda Baker, ARI, 14-111 for 11.2%
6. Devin Lloyd, JAX, 14-115 for 10.9%
7. David Long, TEN, 10-86 for 10.4%
8. Nick Scott, LAR, 10-86 for 10.4%
9. Deommodore Lenoire, SFO, 9-79 for 10.2%
10.Eddie Jackson, CHI, 9-80 for 10.1%
I need a link.
Here, you're trying to tell me that Pitre only missed 19 tackles for the whole year.

Yet, PFF showed that he already missed 21 tackles by game 9, against the Giants.

I hate to go back and watch every game to tally the count.

I can honestly tell you that I had rewatched/reviewed many games, and it wasn't pretty.

The defense as a whole was ugly, Pitre was not alone.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Read what Lovie said in that article:

"I think that Jalen needs to, like all of us defensively, need to play better football"

Sure, there were some good, but Lovie went on to say that "Jalen will be the first guy to tell you he's missed too many tackles".

Keep on reading that article.
I don't have a vendetta.
I saw what Lovie saw, and the player himself admitted to it.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I was comparing Pitre with Kareem Jackson's first seven years.
Oh I'd be really upset if a CB led our team in tackles & missed tackles.

If you're saying the Texans should have started Jackson at safety from the beginning I could get on board with that. Hindsight & all.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Read what Lovie said in that article:

"I think that Jalen needs to, like all of us defensively, need to play better football"

Sure, there were some good, but Lovie went on to say that "Jalen will be the first guy to tell you he's missed too many tackles".

Keep on reading that article.
I don't have a vendetta.
I saw what Lovie saw, and the player himself admitted to it.
I don't think anyone is arguing Pitre missed way to many tackles
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Pretty much 50% isn't that bad playing somewhat out of position. Jalen is not an amazing cover S. He is a box safety who had to play man more.
& this is where the real controversy is. He was a playmaker at the LOS in college.

Our run defense was so bad that Pitre's contributions at the LOS didn't move the needle.

At FS... I think he came into his own. We needed a playmaker on the backend in a bad way & he filled the bill.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Oh I'd be really upset if a CB led our team in tackles & missed tackles.

If you're saying the Texans should have started Jackson at safety from the beginning I could get on board with that. Hindsight & all.
I had said from the onset that they can convert him to safety anytime they want.

I had said that he showed up as a great tackler on his college tapes.

Nothing in hindsight there, my man.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I had said from the onset that they can convert him to safety anytime they want.

I had said that he showed up as a great tackler on his college tapes.

Nothing in hindsight there, my man.
You are so smart. You know everything. You’re a football genius. They should make a statue of you to acknowledge your greatness.

You are a football god.

Football Rushmore should be Lombardi, Schram, Walsh, & 76Texan
 
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76Texan

Hall of Fame
You are so smart. You know everything. You’re a football genius. They should make a statue of you to acknowledge your greatness.

You are a football god.

Football Rushmore should be Lombardi, Schram, Walsh, & 76Texan
I don't know everything, but I know what I've been saying (for the most part).

Especially when the Texans are concerned.

I was good with lots of guys that folks did not appreciate at first.

Lots of people used to laugh at Chris Myers, even as I pointed out that Jenkins' head slap was illegal.

On the other hand, I had said that Brandon Brooks, despite his small-school competition, was going to be a good Olineman.

Not too many people thought much of Derek Newton as a seventh rounder, but he got a second contract under a different HC, in a different scheme.
(I never said he was all that, but you could have worst with a higher draft pick or a FA with a higher salary.)

I had promoted Arian Foster, trying to explain away some of the fumbles he had in college.

I ain't all that, but I did study a lot of football where it matters.

I never professed to know it all.
In fact, I've always said that I can only concentrate on a number of players and/or positions in each draft.

I remember you asked me about Tannerhill. I said I have some reservation.

That was also the draft when I wanted Wilson and I said I'm not sure between him and Luck and RG III, which one will end up having the best career.

That was no hindsight, my man.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I don't know everything, but I know what I've been saying (for the most part).

Especially when the Texans are concerned.

I was good with lots of guys that folks did not appreciate at first.

Lots of people used to laugh at Chris Myers, even as I pointed out that Jenkins' head slap was illegal.

On the other hand, I had said that Brandon Brooks, despite his small-school competition, was going to be a good Olineman.

Not too many people thought much of Derek Newton as a seventh rounder, but he got a second contract under a different HC, in a different scheme.
(I never said he was all that, but you could have worst with a higher draft pick or a FA with a higher salary.)

I had promoted Arian Foster, trying to explain away some of the fumbles he had in college.

I ain't all that, but I did study a lot of football where it matters.

I never professed to know it all.
In fact, I've always said that I can only concentrate on a number of players and/or positions in each draft.

I remember you asked me about Tannerhill. I said I have some reservation.

That was also the draft when I wanted Wilson and I said I'm not sure between him and Luck and RG III, which one will end up having the best career.

That was no hindsight, my man.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Who was behind JJ Watt when some people said he's not quick enough?

76Texan was.

76 said Watt was deserved to be picked at his spot.

Who wanted Duane Brown and thought he would be a great match for the ZBS system that Kubiak was running?

76 did.
76 even predicted and hoping that the Texans would take Brown right there, at that exact spot.

Peeps on the forum asked me about Cushing and Matthews, I said throw a coin as they can bring different things to the table.

I said Savage was a waste of a pick; Yates is a backup QB.
None was hindsight.

And more.

Remember how no GM hits it all the time?

Well , I've always said that I would put up my records against any professional.

I understand I was concentrated on a small number of prospects, but I don't have a crew of scouts under my watch.
I don't have a medical "expert" crew under me either.
Otherwise I would take guys like Keenan Allen for cheap.

I had identify guys that the Texans can't draft, or missed who went on to have great careers.

I had identified guys like Arian Foster and defended his "supposedly" fumbles in college.

Yeah, I do believe I have a pretty good eye for talent even when people don't think much of them.

It's not hindsight.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Yeah, I also remember Jason Allen vs KJackson.
A number of people thought that the Texans would ship KJax out and resign Allen.
I said no.
Allen will be out and KJax will stay.

One of the members with the most of different opinion had since owned it and admitted that my call was correct.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I said I'm not too hot about OB, but I gave him one year and I said he needed to be gone .
Was I wrong to be ahead of the curve?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
There's no hindsight about OB for me.
I must have been, if not the first, one of the very first that said gone to be OB.

Was I wrong?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I don't know everything, but I know what I've been saying (for the most part).

Especially when the Texans are concerned.

I was good with lots of guys that folks did not appreciate at first.

Lots of people used to laugh at Chris Myers, even as I pointed out that Jenkins' head slap was illegal.

On the other hand, I had said that Brandon Brooks, despite his small-school competition, was going to be a good Olineman.

Not too many people thought much of Derek Newton as a seventh rounder, but he got a second contract under a different HC, in a different scheme.
(I never said he was all that, but you could have worst with a higher draft pick or a FA with a higher salary.)

I had promoted Arian Foster, trying to explain away some of the fumbles he had in college.

I ain't all that, but I did study a lot of football where it matters.

I never professed to know it all.
In fact, I've always said that I can only concentrate on a number of players and/or positions in each draft.

I remember you asked me about Tannerhill. I said I have some reservation.

That was also the draft when I wanted Wilson and I said I'm not sure between him and Luck and RG III, which one will end up having the best career.

That was no hindsight, my man.
We can all play this game going back to 2002.

I wanted Peppers over Carr
 

Speedy

Former Yeller Dweller
There's no hindsight about OB for me.
I must have been, if not the first, one of the very first that said gone to be OB.

Was I wrong?
You’re wrong thinking people here care about facts. That’s not how it works on TT. Here the f word “facts” might as well get the ***** treatment.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Can he play quarterback?
Do you think he'll likely get hurt with that small frame?

I remember a few years ago we were having similar conversations about Teddy Bridgewater.

Teddy put on some weight for the combine so the "numbers" looked respectable. Then he weighed in 15 lbs lighter at his pro-day.

Good prospect. Smart, good arm, good college production, talking heads had him going #1 overall.

NFL teams let him fall to 32.
 

FuzzyLogic

Mathematically Possible
Do you think he'll likely get hurt with that small frame?

I remember a few years ago we were having similar conversations about Teddy Bridgewater.

Teddy put on some weight for the combine so the "numbers" looked respectable. Then he weighed in 15 lbs lighter at his pro-day.

Good prospect. Smart, good arm, good college production, talking heads had him going #1 overall.

NFL teams let him fall to 32.
I worry more about a 5'11" 198 pound Pitre with the way he throws his shoulder at people.

If Bryce is 5'11" + and anywhere close to 200 lbs - you take him if you think he is the best QB left (some of the choice is now with the #1 pick, thanks Lovie).

I get Teddy got hurt and pretty much stays hurt, but so does Jimmy G at 6'2" 225 lbs - some guys just have bad juju.

I may not be remembering it correctly but I don't recall people being at the same level of hype about Teddy as they are Bryce.
 

wildroot

Rookie
Who was behind JJ Watt when some people said he's not quick enough?

76Texan was.

76 said Watt was deserved to be picked at his spot.

Who wanted Duane Brown and thought he would be a great match for the ZBS system that Kubiak was running?

76 did.
76 even predicted and hoping that the Texans would take Brown right there, at that exact spot.

Peeps on the forum asked me about Cushing and Matthews, I said throw a coin as they can bring different things to the table.

I said Savage was a waste of a pick; Yates is a backup QB.
None was hindsight.

And more.

Remember how no GM hits it all the time?

Well , I've always said that I would put up my records against any professional.

I understand I was concentrated on a small number of prospects, but I don't have a crew of scouts under my watch.
I don't have a medical "expert" crew under me either.
Otherwise I would take guys like Keenan Allen for cheap.

I had identify guys that the Texans can't draft, or missed who went on to have great careers.

I had identified guys like Arian Foster and defended his "supposedly" fumbles in college.

Yeah, I do believe I have a pretty good eye for talent even when people don't think much of them.

It's not hindsight.
You're answering yourself in the 3rd person...kinda creepy.l9ll
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
I may not be remembering it correctly but I don't recall people being at the same level of hype about Teddy as they are Bryce
Feels like just as many people wanting Houston to take Bridgewater #1 overall. People here.

I'm not saying, "it happened to Teddy, it's going to happen to Young."

I'm just saying you don't take a 5'6" 155lb DE at the top of the draft. You don't take a 350lb CB at the top of the draft.

He's so far off prototypical size, you don't take him with a top 10 pick unless your name is Mike Mayock... maybe AL Davis (rip)
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Do you think he'll likely get hurt with that small frame?

I remember a few years ago we were having similar conversations about Teddy Bridgewater.

Teddy put on some weight for the combine so the "numbers" looked respectable. Then he weighed in 15 lbs lighter at his pro-day.

Good prospect. Smart, good arm, good college production, talking heads had him going #1 overall.

NFL teams let him fall to 32.
Rightfully so
 

Lucky

Ride, Captain, Ride!
Staff member
I'm just saying you don't take a 5'6" 155lb DE at the top of the draft. You don't take a 350lb CB at the top of the draft.
Has there ever been guys like this that dominated in the best conference in America. If so, I think you have at least bring them in for a visit.

Analogies. They're not for everyone.
 
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beerlover

Hall of Fame
Has there ever been guys like this that dominated in the best conference in America. If so, I think you have at least bring them in for a visit.

Analogies. They're not for everyone.
How about a 6-4 340 TE who switched to NT?
 


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