One post that has everything about Schaub

[Texans_Chick]

OK, I did this post called, "The Matt Schaub Compendium" to talk about Schaub's 2012 in the context of his entire career.

Today's post over at the new Ultimate Texans location is entitled, "On Matt Schaub, elite quarterbacks, QB rankings, clutch and the ‘Schaubnado’"

The first post was more of a focus on the numbers.

The second post is more putting Schaub in the context of quarterback debate stuff that tends to go on in July when there is no real news.

Concepts like elite, quarterback rankings, and does clutch even exist as a reproducible skill?

If you are of the sort who thinks, "No way the Texans can win the Super Bowl with Schaub," there's a few data points in there that are the equivalent of a hug.

And once again, thanks to all who click on this link and share it on social networks. The more popular my stuff is at the Chronicle while hosted at that location, the more likely the powers that be will continue to let me do my thing.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Steph, this has to be up there with one of your best efforts. It has covered all aspects of the "elite" story and of the Matt Schaub story while presenting no apparent biases. Thanks for another great read.


This quote seems to reflect one of my main long-standing concerns (everyone here is aware of my more acute concerns regarding his foot) with regard to a QB type such as Schaub:

There are some quarterbacks who can win, despite having less than ideal offensive lines, a parade of different offensive players around them, bad running games, bad defenses. And they have done it over many years.

With all of Schaub's known limitations, we have always had to worry about ALL other aspects of the team to be "clicking" almost perfectly for a good outcome. We are forever concentrating on drafting and dealing to try to avoid ANY weaknesses on D or O. When you have that one, strong, consistent QB, it makes it so much more simple to deal with easier-to-"plug-in interchangeable" positions in numbers, doing so with non-elite players, than forever year-to-year being forced to keep your team "together" by seeking a myriad of strong players at virtually every other position.

Again, great article, Steph.

 

[Nawzer]

Very well researched article. I still don't like Schaub, but I acknowledge that he was not the sole reason for our dramatic crash at the end of the season. I still think Kubiak is the biggest problem we have on this team. If he doesn't change the offense to allow for more dynamism then I think we're doomed to repeat last year's results. Secondly, the defense has to play better and not give up big plays. Unfortunately, I don't think this defense will be very good as there are critical holes everywhere. I'm still not convinced Cushing will be as effective and we don't have another quality ILB next to him. Our OLBs don't give me any confidence and we have Earl Mitchell as the NT. Of course Ed Reed is a huge question mark and it's looking more and more like that the FO screwed up. Anyway, Schaub can have the best year of his career this year, but it won't matter if the whole team doesn't step up.

 

[the wonger need food]

Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.

 

[paycheck71]

Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

I'm sorry, but LOL!

 

[paycheck71]

Just to add to the previous post, I'd like to see all those QB scouting reports with one question and a Y/N checkbox.

I'm not remotely qualified to evaluate QB's, but even I understand that having a subjective, non-measurable "does he make his teammates better?" as the only, or even a major evaluation category is kind of silly.

 

[amazing80]

All the yards in the world won't convince me Schaub is any good, his TD to INT ratio speaks volumes, not to mention the eye test when you watch him. BUT I am a realist and understand he is our BEST option as of now. But we need to figure out our future FAST.

 

[steelbtexan]

All the yards in the world won't convince me Schaub is any good, his TD to INT ratio speaks volumes, not to mention the eye test when you watch him. BUT I am a realist and understand he is our BEST option as of now. But we need to figure out our future FAST.

^^^^
This

But I'm not sure if Gary's system restricts Schaub's ability to audible etc... causing Schaub to look worse than he is?

I do think Schaub is damaged goods and Gary's playcalling tries to mask Schaub's deficiencies.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.

OTOH, last year the Texans won 12 regular season games with rotation at Oline. Most teams with such issues at guard, tackle aren't winning many games.
There's exactly one high pick on the Oline, and most stat people believe a big part of low sack stats are on the QB.

Most of the high picks for the Texans have been on the defensive side of the ball. Basically, Scahub over years has run an offense of Andre Johnson, Duane Brown and an island of misfit toys that weren't draft day darlings.

Given they've had an above average offense for most of Schaub's years, I'm thinking a case can be made that he causes others to elevate their games.

You can only do so much bailing by great players. Ask Larry Fitzgerald how hard it is to make a difference if you don't have a guy who can get you the ball. I think he'd kill for a QB as good as Schaub.

In other words, I'm not saying elitey but true elitety rare. Most fanbases are sore with aspects of their QBs game--just normal strengths/weaknesses things and that QB play is so spotlighted in losses.

 

[Texans_Chick]

All the yards in the world won't convince me Schaub is any good, his TD to INT ratio speaks volumes, not to mention the eye test when you watch him. BUT I am a realist and understand he is our BEST option as of now. But we need to figure out our future FAST.

This last draft not ideal for QBs.

The good news is that if you were developing a QB from scratch, you could do worse than Kubiak as coach.

Look around league at all the teams that trade for promising QBs and fail. I think Schaub is the only modern trade that has resulted in a +4000 yard paaser.

 

[ATXtexanfan]

I still cant believe we extended schaub BEFORE last season.

 

[thunderkyss]

Look around league at all the teams that trade for promising QBs and fail. I think Schaub is the only modern trade that has resulted in a +4000 yard paaser.

again & again & again.

 

[ChampionTexan]

Look around league at all the teams that trade for promising QBs and fail. I think Schaub is the only modern trade that has resulted in a +4000 yard paaser.

Not that it really undermines your argument, but Palmer had over 4,000 (barely) for the Raiders last season.

 

[the wonger need food]

OTOH, last year the Texans won 12 regular season games with rotation at Oline. Most teams with such issues at guard, tackle aren't winning many games.
There's exactly one high pick on the Oline, and most stat people believe a big part of low sack stats are on the QB.

Most of the high picks for the Texans have been on the defensive side of the ball. Basically, Scahub over years has run an offense of Andre Johnson, Duane Brown and an island of misfit toys that weren't draft day darlings.

Given they've had an above average offense for most of Schaub's years, I'm thinking a case can be made that he causes others to elevate their games.

You can only do so much bailing by great players. Ask Larry Fitzgerald how hard it is to make a difference if you don't have a guy who can get you the ball. I think he'd kill for a QB as good as Schaub.

In other words, I'm not saying elitey but true elitety rare. Most fanbases are sore with aspects of their QBs game--just normal strengths/weaknesses things and that QB play is so spotlighted in losses.

Schaub has had plenty of talent around him, misfit or not. Owen Daniels, Arian, Myers, Leach, Briseil, Winston, Dreessen... all very good players that a great QB could elevate(ed) to an even higher level.

Look at Andrew Luck winning a ton of games with a horrible o-line. He made Vick Ballard, TY Hilton, Lavon Brazil and Dwayne Allen borderline All Pros because he made them better.

Players in the Houston offense have to succeed in spite of their QB. Andre Johnson doesn't score TD's because he has to slow down and wait for the defense on every pass. He can't score in the red zone because his QB doesn't have the touch to take advantage of his height/physicality/vertical.

I agree that Schaub is serviceable and isn't going to necessarily lose a lot of games for his team, but he's not gonna win many on his own either. He may be capable of getting hot at the end of the year and help get this team to a Super Bowl, but the stars will need to align perfectly with the defense playing well, few injuries, good game planning and good old fashion luck. However, he is never going to put a team on his back and take them there like the great ones do.

The most concerning thing i saw last year was his shakiness in the pocket, especially toward the end of the season. He looked like David Carr on way too many plays and just withered under pressure instead of trying to make a special play. If a play gets off schedule it is over. If down/distance gets out of whack or there's a penalty the drive is over. Schaub just doesn't possess any "playmaker" skills that good QB's need to be successful when it counts.

 

[Texans_Chick]

I still cant believe we extended schaub BEFORE last season.

Why? Given QB contracts done after his, the value wasn't terrible. Arguably, it's better than most recent contracts. See e.g. Tony Romo pre-back surgery contract. Even horrible QBs get paid. Just supply demand.

Assume the Texans finished the season exactly the same but didn't work on Schaub's contract until after the season. Would it be less? Nope. Maybe more given that there are 1 not many quality QBs 2 no plan B 3 no plan B that know the Texans offense right now during Andre Johnson's window 4 Recent QB contracts fat, getting fatter.

Not a terrible contract. You're locked in short term but you want that anyway until better draft classes/options emerge. Can't look at the headline numbers and terms of the contract, just the timeframe where you are economically locked in.

Both prospectively and retrospectively I have no issues with the Schaub contract. Just a risk/reward, supply/demand decision.

 

[steelbtexan]

Why? Given QB contracts done after his, the value wasn't terrible. Arguably, it's better than most recent contracts. See e.g. Tony Romo pre-back surgery contract. Even horrible QBs get paid. Just supply demand.

Assume the Texans finished the season exactly the same but didn't work on Schaub's contract until after the season. Would it be less? Nope. Maybe more given that there are 1 not many quality QBs 2 no plan B 3 no plan B that know the Texans offense right now during Andre Johnson's window 4 Recent QB contracts fat, getting fatter.

Not a terrible contract. You're locked in short term but you want that anyway until better draft classes/options emerge. Can't look at the headline numbers and terms of the contract, just the timeframe where you are economically locked in.

Both prospectively and retrospectively I have no issues with the Schaub contract. Just a risk/reward, supply/demand decision.

Disagree

Schaub is damaged goods. IMHO

Because of signing him to that contract they are stuck with him and will be letting 2 yrs of their already closing window slip away.

I dont care about other QB options. They should've let the season play out. You know, like great GM's like Newsome do. If Schaub continues to play late in the season at the putrid levels of last yr then whoever's decision it was to extend Scchaub should be fired. 16 qtrs and 1 offensive TD with HFA on the line in todays NFL = LOL.


BTW, great article.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Disagree

Schaub is damaged goods. IMHO

Because of signing him to that contract they are stuck with him and will be letting 2 yrs of their already closing window slip away.

I dont care about other QB options. They should've let the season play out. You know, like great GM's like Newsome do. If Schaub continues to play late in the season at the putrid levels of last yr then whoever's decision it was to extend Scchaub should be fired. 16 qtrs and 1 offensive TD with HFA on the line in todays NFL = LOL.


BTW, great article.

Thank you. Newsome wanted a deal prior to last season. Didn't. Got worse deal.

Yes, Ravens won a SB but Flacco had a terrible regular season. Worse than Schaub's. Maybe the SB win, Caldwell helps grow confidence, but I wouldn't feel good about that contract at all. Flacco is a maddeningly, inconsistent QB to watch. Sometimes beautiful throws, sometime immobile Frankenflacco in pocket, not capable of basic bread and butter passes.

You have to look at alternatives if you are a GM because you live in the real world. Much of league has hot garbage at high price as their QB.

 

[leebigeztx]

Steph, this has to be up there with one of your best efforts. It has covered all aspects of the "elite" story and of the Matt Schaub story while presenting no apparent biases. Thanks for another great read.


This quote seems to reflect one of my main long-standing concerns (everyone here is aware of my more acute concerns regarding his foot) with regard to a QB type such as Schaub:



With all of Schaub's known limitations, we have always had to worry about ALL other aspects of the team to be "clicking" almost perfectly for a good outcome. We are forever concentrating on drafting and dealing to try to avoid ANY weaknesses on D or O. When you have that one, strong, consistent QB, it makes it so much more simple to deal with easier-to-"plug-in interchangeable" positions in numbers, doing so with non-elite players, than forever year-to-year being forced to keep your team "together" by seeking a myriad of strong players at virtually every other position.

Again, great article, Steph.

See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.

 

[Tailgate]

While Schaub has never been the "athletic" QB, I can't remember him looking as pudgy or out of shape as he did last season. At one point, I thought he was a new candidate for the BRO.

Not sure if this is accurate or not, or if it would even have to do with anything related... But I am hoping to see a Schaub that hit it hard in the gym this off season, something he was probably unable to last off season.

 

[thunderkyss]

See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.

We won 13 games in 2012.


Are you telling me we had no holes on our team?

 

[thunderkyss]

While Schaub has never been the "athletic" QB, I can't remember him looking as pudgy or out of shape as he did last season. At one point, I thought he was a new candidate for the BRO.

Not sure if this is accurate or not, or if it would even have to do with anything related... But I am hoping to see a Schaub that hit it hard in the gym this off season, something he was probably unable to last off season.

I can get on board this one.

Seeing how he lived in a Rascal for most of the offseason prior to 2012, should have been expected.

 

[HOU-TEX]

We won 13 games in 2012.


Are you telling me we had no holes on our team?

Actually, we only won 12 games in 2012

 

[thunderkyss]

Actually, we only won 12 games in 2012

Thank you.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Actually, we only won 12 games in 2012

I believe he was including the post-season.

 

[HOU-TEX]

I believe he was including the post-season.

Which was in 2013. Har, har, gotcha

 

[thunderkyss]

So, the question is still the same. Did we or did we not have holes on our team? Did Schaub compensate for our offensive deficiencies or not? Foster had a good season, but our run game wasn't as potent as it needed to be & our receivers catch rate (including Foster) took a giant step back.

Still, Matt threw for 4000 yards, basically with one WR.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Which was in 2013. Har, har, gotcha

:kubepalm:

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Which was in 2013. Har, har, gotcha

What about the PREVIOUS post-season?

 

[HOU-TEX]

What about the PREVIOUS post-season?

Doh!

Nicely done

 

[HouTx11]

Flacco may have had a somewhat sub-par season, but he got it done in the playoffs when it mattered. You have to give him credit for that, otherwise the alternative would be the unforgiveable here in H-town: crediting someone like Jacoby Jones for the SB ring (and yes he did play a part in it much to your dismay).

 

[Lucky]

This last draft not ideal for QBs.

The good news is that if you were developing a QB from scratch, you could do worse than Kubiak as coach.

Look around league at all the teams that trade for promising QBs and fail. I think Schaub is the only modern trade that has resulted in a +4000 yard paaser.

I don't know of a QB that Kubiak has developed from scratch, but I would like to see him get the opportunity.

Are Young, Farve, and Trent Green not modern? If not I'm feeling very old.

Trent Green might be the best comparison to Schaub`s career thus far. He put up good stats and got the Chiefs into a couple of playoffs. Injuries led to a sharp decline in his play. We will see what turn Schaub's career takes.

 

[bhsman]

Look at Andrew Luck winning a ton of games with a horrible o-line. He made Vick Ballard, TY Hilton, Lavon Brazil and Dwayne Allen borderline All Pros because he made them better.

Just want to point out that Luck also had Reggie Wayne to throw to, and even then the Colts were, what, 8-0 in games decided by a touchdown or less? Luck is legit but that team is due for some regression given how flukey they were.

 

[thunderkyss]

Flacco may have had a somewhat sub-par season, but he got it done in the playoffs when it mattered. You have to give him credit for that, otherwise the alternative would be the unforgiveable here in H-town: crediting someone like Jacoby Jones for the SB ring (and yes he did play a part in it much to your dismay).

Go back & look how this started. The thought was thrown out there that Flacco is a better QB than Schaub & they used Flacco's play-off numbers as proof.

His play off numbers were better than Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady's, Peyton Mannings, & Drew Brees (since he didn't play). Are we going to say Flacco is better than those guys?

No.

Matt Schaub has consistently put up "elite" type numbers, Flacco hasn't. I think Schaub understands the game, his offenses, opposing defenses, & his team... more than Flacco does.

Remember back when there was a lot of noise coming out of Baltimore, how the defensive players were "relieved" that the offense will finally carry their own weight?

Ever remember anything like that in Houston?

I guarantee you, Flacco's offensive coordinator will come under fire within the next two years.

 

[dream_team]

Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.

I'm not saying Schaub does make the players around him better, but what's your reasoning for believing he doesn't do this? I don't see any evidence that back up this case.

On offense, we only have ONE big acquisition... and that was Andre Johnson. Sure, you can argue Duane is one too, but we all know he was a big reach at the end of the 1st round. So who gets credit for making 4th round pick OD, cheap FA Wade Smith, cheap trade Chris Myers, UDFA Arian Foster pro-bowlers? Who gets the credit for making Duane Brown the best LT in the game? Were all of these guys simply underrated and Rick Smith is brilliant? Does the coaching staff get all of the credit?

How about the players that left? Did they get significantly better since supposedly Matt Schaub has been bringing them down? Briesel got a big contract to leave, but just had a horrible season with the Raiders. Winston was regarded as one of the best RTs in the game, but was just cut by the Chiefs after one season. Kevin Walter's best seasons are easily with the Texans. David Andersen couldn't stick with another team after he left the Texans.

Then there's Jacoby Jones and Joel Dressen, whom have left for better QBs. Did their production go up? Not really, still about the same.

So here's my question... where's the proof he makes the players around him worse???

 

[dream_team]

All the yards in the world won't convince me Schaub is any good, his TD to INT ratio speaks volumes, not to mention the eye test when you watch him. BUT I am a realist and understand he is our BEST option as of now. But we need to figure out our future FAST.

His TD:INT ratio isn't a good measure of how good a QB is. Everyone knows Kubiak is going to prefer trying to run the ball in the end zone.

Plus, his TD:INT ratio last season was still better than Luck, Stafford, Vick, Cutler, Romo, Cam, Dalton, and Eli. He was also only 2 picks worse than Flacco. Of all QBs last season that started more than 10 games, his TD:INT ratio is ranked 10th. Not that bad actually.

 

[dream_team]

See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.

This is exactly what everyone was saying about Flacco before last season.

 

[76Texan]

See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.

Big deal, I don't even need to dig deep.

Tell me why Brady couldn't win it this year.
Tell me why Peyton couldn't.
Tell me why Rodgers couldn't.
Tell me where Eli was.

 

[thunderkyss]

Big deal, I don't even need to dig deep.

Tell me why Brady couldn't win it this year.
Tell me why Peyton couldn't.
Tell me why Rodgers couldn't.
Tell me where Eli was.

Because Flacco is better than allz them btches.

 

[ArTex]

Only one thing actually matters when it comes to judging an NFL Quarterback's performance....

Does he make players around him better???

In Schaub's case the answer is a resounding 'NO'. He is a weak link on the offense that has to be compensated for by great players that bail him out. Good NFL QB's have the reverse effect. They make plays off-schedule, improvise and instill confidence into the offensive unit. Schaub accomplishes none of the above and counts on his teammates to make him look adequate.

In games Andre Johnson misses, the Texans passing game still holds up relatively well, compared to other type flight wrs missing games.

This indicates:

- Schaub keeps the team going. He still makes due with what he has and isnt as reliant on star talent as it seems.

- Its all Kubiak's system. System coach with system QB who isnt given room to "improvise

Or A little of both. Schaub may or may not be decent on his own, but whats it matter if his improvising is reigned in and his defiences are masked? Schaub doesnt have Peyton Manninv pull to deviate into his own play style so itll always be kinda difficult to see the "raw Schaub" ability

 

[Texans_Chick]

I don't know of a QB that Kubiak has developed from scratch, but I would like to see him get the opportunity.

Are Young, Farve, and Trent Green not modern? If not I'm feeling very old.

Trent Green might be the best comparison to Schaub`s career thus far. He put up good stats and got the Chiefs into a couple of playoffs. Injuries led to a sharp decline in his play. We will see what turn Schaub's career takes.

You are old.

:kubepalm:

But your larger point is well taken.

Ultimately we can all agree that there have been many more catastrophic failures with QB trades than even reasonable successes.

And a number of Kubiak QBs had best seasons with him...but also there's been some Orlovsky sort of ugh.

 

[leebigeztx]

This is exactly what everyone was saying about Flacco before last season.

Flacco has won a playoff game every year he's been in the league. I will admit,up until 2011 vs the pats,he's had some clunkers. You can't compare flacco to schaub because flacco has great ability. When I say that I mean his physical ability can transcend plays. He can threaten every blade of grass on the field. He's not a physically restricted qb

 

[thunderkyss]

Flacco has won a playoff game every year he's been in the league. I will admit,up until 2011 vs the pats,he's had some clunkers. You can't compare flacco to schaub because flacco has great ability. When I say that I mean his physical ability can transcend plays. He can threaten every blade of grass on the field. He's not a physically restricted qb

the QB position is 60/40 mental (or something like that), many QBs wash out in this league because they don't have the mental fortitude to get the job done, despite having the ability to "threaten every blade of grass."

He had a 66 QB rating against Philly, 55 against KC, 45 vs the Texans, 75 against Pittsburgh, 62 vs Pittsburgh, 76 against Denver, & a 62 against Cincinnati.... so he's put up some clunkers in 2012 despite his physical ability.

 

[Rey]

the QB position is 60/40 mental (or something like that), many QBs wash out in this league because they don't have the mental fortitude to get the job done, despite having the ability to "threaten every blade of grass."

He had a 66 QB rating against Philly, 55 against KC, 45 vs the Texans, 75 against Pittsburgh, 62 vs Pittsburgh, 76 against Denver, & a 62 against Cincinnati.... so he's put up some clunkers in 2012 despite his physical ability.

I've been saying this since the beginning of time, but the system guys play in and who their coaches are matters.

Now, I don't know much about what Jim Caldwell does to make his players more productive, but I do know that when he took over for them last year Flacco seemed to play a whole lot better.

Yes the game involves a lot of mental ability, but coaches should still have systems that bring out the most in their players.

I don't think you can compare QB's without taking into account the system they are playing in and who they have coaching them. And sometimes good coaches make mistakes with guys. That's not to say that players don't deserve some of the blame for their own shortcomings, but the situation a guy gets put in can matter a whole lot.

Put a guy in position to succeed and he'll look a whole lot smarter.

 

[thunderkyss]

Now, I don't know much about what Jim Caldwell does to make his players more productive, but I do know that when he took over for them last year Flacco seemed to play a whole lot better.

I still think it's too early to tell with Caldwell. When Cam Cameron came on there was a big whupteedoo & to start 2011 "everyone" was excited about the "new" Ravens offense. There was a lot of talk about how the defense doesn't have to carry the team anymore.

Then in 2012, Cam Cameron wasn't good enough, the offense was stale.... this is the NFL, not for long league. We'll see how teams prepare for Caldwell & Flacco and see if they can keep up with what they started.

History says probably not. But Schaub & Kubiak will probably throw for 4000 yards and avg a 90 or better QB Rating while winning a bunch of games. If Schaub plays 16 games that is, & history says something about that as well.

 

[ChampionTexan]

I still think it's too early to tell with Caldwell. When Cam Cameron came on there was a big whupteedoo & to start 2011 "everyone" was excited about the "new" Ravens offense. There was a lot of talk about how the defense doesn't have to carry the team anymore.

Then in 2012, Cam Cameron wasn't good enough, the offense was stale.... this is the NFL, not for long league. We'll see how teams prepare for Caldwell & Flacco and see if they can keep up with what they started.

History says probably not. But Schaub & Kubiak will probably throw for 4000 yards and avg a 90 or better QB Rating while winning a bunch of games. If Schaub plays 16 games that is, & history says something about that as well.

This might be a little more compelling if Cam Cameron hadn't been the OC in Baltimore since the 2008 season - which coincidentally was Flacco's rookie year.

 

[Texan_Bill]

See, this is me. I call into sirius and I've said this a million times. To me, a qb in todays game have to be about to compensate for what the team lacks. A team can't be built with a qb who needs everything humming to win. Just rattle off the last 10 superbowls winning qbs and u will find holes on those teams,but the qb made up for it. I'm with team building,but u can't hide ur qb. There will be 5 plays in a game that are solely made by the qb. I've seen too many times when the 5 plays were not made. So unless the defense turns into the 2000 ravens,the line morphs into the hogs,aj goes back 6 yrs,daniels turns to sharpe,and the other wr turns into aj part 2,I don't think u can win a superbowl with schaub.

I hope AJ doesn't go back 6 years. He only played in 9 games that season.

 

[Rey]

I still think it's too early to tell with Caldwell. When Cam Cameron came on there was a big whupteedoo & to start 2011 "everyone" was excited about the "new" Ravens offense. There was a lot of talk about how the defense doesn't have to carry the team anymore.

Then in 2012, Cam Cameron wasn't good enough, the offense was stale.... this is the NFL, not for long league. We'll see how teams prepare for Caldwell & Flacco and see if they can keep up with what they started.

History says probably not. But Schaub & Kubiak will probably throw for 4000 yards and avg a 90 or better QB Rating while winning a bunch of games. If Schaub plays 16 games that is, & history says something about that as well.

Sounds like you are trying to rationalize being a Texans fan to me.

Whether or not Kubiak and Schaub keep trucking a long and Flacco and Caldwell flame out...Is not relevant at this point in time.

Caldwell and Flacco (even if just a spark; lust...and not full fledged love till death do they part) have won a superbowl. They've reached the peak. They've climbed that mountain and planted their flag.

Even if it ends in an ugly divorce they'll still have little Jr. that they can both be proud of.


This long, steady, good relationship that Kubiak and Schaub have means zilch to me if they don't win that ultimate prize.


What is the ultimate goal here? To have a team that can win a lot of games in the regular season and look pretty doing it? Or have a team that can win superbowls?

I'd rather be the Giants from the past 5 years than the Patriots.

 

[deucetx]

So, the question is still the same. Did we or did we not have holes on our team? Did Schaub compensate for our offensive deficiencies or not? Foster had a good season, but our run game wasn't as potent as it needed to be & our receivers catch rate (including Foster) took a giant step back.

Still, Matt threw for 4000 yards, basically with one WR.

I'll take a stab at it and say, no, he didn't. I say it but still think he's capable of winning a Superbowl for us because I simply think he's the type of player that needs more tools around him versus otherwise. Plus how his contract is setup money wise he's not going anywhere for at least 2 more years so I find it all moot but we do need to talk about something until the season starts, heh.

If Schaub compensated we wouldn't have had such an offensive meltdown from week 14 on. We went nine quarters without an offensive touchdown while playing defenses that were no better than medicore including scoring 6 points at home against the Vikings. That is not really compensating for issues in other places. I think Schaub had a better game against the Pats in the end then some give him credit for though. I saw more strength in his passes that than normally. Yet even with that thought the play that hangs in my mind is when he breaks away from the rush and is completely clear yet throws the ball away instead of looking to make a play. .

Secondly, you seem too hung up on the 4000 yards but have to remember something. He got a chunk of that in two games against rather piss poor secondaries at that. To get 4k in passing you need to average about 250 per game. Other than those two games (Jaguars/Lions) Schaub was only averaging 226 yards per game so was not on track for another 4k. That's why I find that number last year a bit deceiving. He had 842 yards alone in those two games.

And not sure what you mean on catch percentages taking a giant step back. Some sites have this stat slightly different but generally they are usually no more than 1.0-2.0 off one another.

Top targets (30+ targets)

2012 - 72.3
2011 - 68.5
2010 - 70.6

So there wasn't any massive drop. Now did he lack targets? Yes, he did. Jones departing hit us there because at least he had three receivers compared to last year of having only 2 of them. But there were no massive changes in catch percentages except for the guys with less than 30 targets. So probably should say he lacked viable receiving threats.

Again, not saying Schaub is not a good QB because I think he is and solid enough to get the job done. But I have not seen him really improve anyone offensively or make them a bit more than they really are. In truth, how many QB's can we say make those around them better? I think we can probably count them on one hand with maybe an exception here and there.

In other words, we're looking to hard to make Schaub more than he is. He doesn't have to be a Drew Brees, Rodgers, Manning family member, Brady or whatever. Would love if he was but he doesn't need to be for us to win. I don't think Flacco makes anyone better around him and right now he's polishing his ring.

 

[nero THE zero]

Thank you. Newsome wanted a deal prior to last season. Didn't. Got worse deal.

Yes, Ravens won a SB but Flacco had a terrible regular season. Worse than Schaub's. Maybe the SB win, Caldwell helps grow confidence, but I wouldn't feel good about that contract at all. Flacco is a maddeningly, inconsistent QB to watch. Sometimes beautiful throws, sometime immobile Frankenflacco in pocket, not capable of basic bread and butter passes.

You have to look at alternatives if you are a GM because you live in the real world. Much of league has hot garbage at high price as their QB.

This x100.

I'm not a huge Schaub fan and am 100% already on the draft-his-replacement-in-2014 bandwagon, but the Flacco deal is awful, awful, awful.

I just keep thinking back to his 48% 147YDS 1TD 2INT meltdown against us last year and wonder how many ulcers Ozzie got inking that deal with him. I mean, don't get me wrong, he had no choice, but, oy.

 

[thunderkyss]

Whether or not Kubiak and Schaub keep trucking a long and Flacco and Caldwell flame out...Is not relevant at this point in time.

Caldwell and Flacco (even if just a spark; lust...and not full fledged love till death do they part) have won a superbowl. They've reached the peak. They've climbed that mountain and planted their flag.

Even if it ends in an ugly divorce they'll still have little Jr. that they can both be proud of.

My point is that we've heard the "Flacco's figured it out" thing before & he's always reverted back to inconsistent play. We spoke about Flacco like Christian Ponder, or Jake Locker. I bet that guy surfaces again in 2013, that's all I'm saying.

Right now, people are putting Flacco in the Eli, Ben QB tier. At the end of 2013, we might have him in the Dilfer, Johnson tier.