Texansballer74
The Marine
I don’t know how anyone could say this isn’t shutdown or close to it. What games have you watched to come up with this conclusion?
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On the Sauce Mock Draft
- Thread starter beerlover
- Start date
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
I know right?
He's not ranked #5 or better overall on most boards for nothing.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Already. I can’t wait to read his response. 0 touchdowns allowed over his entire collegiate career. And that’s not shutdown. All I can say is, well alrighty then!
ghostlight
Veteran
no sauce for me at 3
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Why not?
I'll be doing backflips if we land Gardner at 3..
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
If Hutchinson and Neal go, the odds of us taking him rise to about 50% I'd say.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol I spoke to my overall concerns about him but you seemed to only focus on 1 aspect of what i said. But i'll elaborate on the main point of my post using your point. If anything, his stats are the red flag. Even the best CB prospects to come out over the last couple of years have given up at least 1 TD somewhere along the line....& Most of them played in much better conferences & against better athletes and qbs than Gardner. The fact that he didn't give a TD throughout his entire collegiate career probably says more about the level of talent and qb play he faced more than his skill as a supposed shutdown cb.
Taking him at 3 means he'll be asked to be and looked upon by us and coaches as a #1 CB....which means drawing the oppositions #1 most often. Now that might not have been a problem......if we had some semblance of a great defensive core that could cover for him a little while he rounds the proverbial rookie curve.....like the last cb we took even close to that high, Kevin Johnson. Instead, he'll be brought in as somewhat of a centerpiece to the new defense....i.e. closer to what Kjax was when we drafted him back in 2010. & Well, we see how his rookie year went..horrible. He was labeled a bust around here by game 8 he was so bad. Fortunately we were able to salvage him when we went out and got a veteran J-Jo the next year to be what we had drafted K-jax to be..a #1 cb....but we really, we got lucky there...we weren't with Kevin Johnson.
Taking him at 3 or even 13 also means that opposing qbs will be going at him as the #1 cb............................. alot. & what do we know about NFL qbs? They won't shy away from going at him...... like they probably did in the AAC.
Lastly i just don't see the raw quickness from him that i like to see from my cb's....which leads me to believe he won't be able to match up 1v1 with the likes of a Ty Hill or any other shifty slot guy. He's also very handsy and that won't play well for him with the big physicial guys like AJ Brown and Devante Adams who will just run over him and use that against him b/c they love that physical contact. All these guys are on our schedule next year by the way.
Then there's the whole pass rush aspect....that i spoke to in my intitial post. He won't have that quick pass rush he had in Cincy when he comes here. I just believe there are better prospects that will contribute more to this team immediately and in the long run than Gardner. I think Andrew Booth Jr. later in the 2nd gives us way more value than Gardner at 3. He in my estimation is the absolute prototype for cb. Big and physical, tackles really well and his strength is playing zone..cover 2, press bail..also plays the ball in the air really well.
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Number19
Hall of Fame
Really good analysis. Gives one pause. Haven't given a lot of attention to CB's, but the one evening I did, there were a couple lower down the board that looked promising. When I get home I'll have to see if Booth was one of them.
ghostlight
Veteran
My board has an OT at 3 and J. Johnson @13
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Anyone considering Stingley should be all over this kid. The only reason he isn't mentioned as a top 15 pick is b/c he didn't participate in the combine & he pulled out of his pro day due to injury. Even with that he's still consistently rated as 1 of the top 4-5 cbs in this db heavy draft and is quite possibly the most athletic of all the dbs. He'd be a steal for us if we could get him with our 2nd rounder.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
The significance of this is that he fractured his right ankle.
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leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Who is OT?
badboy
Hall of Fame
Just some thoughts, Sauce as our CB1 would not be going against slots or TEs. I do share some of your concerns and we should draft another corner to start opposite him plus a good safety to support against the targets he will get as you say...at least until QBs learn.
I reflect back on another cornerback Kareem Jackson also had a rough rookie year. In my opinion it was because he was being forced to play differently than he should. I do anticipate the same thing with sauce. Gardner is one of the best mirror, press Corners I've seen in some time but expect him to be used as an 'off' CB. I think he can play that. It is just not utilizing his assets.
I am thinking I would rather trade down losing Gardner if I could end up with Daxton Hill and Roger McCreary. Hill is very comparative to sauce and Roger McCreary man handled all receivers who came against him in the SEC.
Against big physical receivers as you mention, I think sauce will float like a butterfly and sting like a bee to mix Sports metaphors.
We should add to our pass rush in round 3 with Sam Williams.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I agree if Derek Stingley is at 37 I would be all over him despite his ankle injury it would be worth the risk. Even if I could get only 2 to 3 years. And that would be even if we drafted sauce Gardener or another corner like Hill in round one.
ghostlight
Veteran
"an" meaning Offensive Tackle
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
So no player, just a position? That's not taking the best player availible which is what you should do
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Let me retort a little. If Sauce is the pick its because Lovie see his Richard Sherman / Diggs Cover 3 type corner who can also play 2 man and man to man. Kareem never had the footspeed or ball skills to be a top shelf corner. He was always kinda like a new age safety. McCourty moved to safety after a season or 2 because the Goat saw what he would become. Sauce and his length have a big advantage when playing trail technique also. I think he's going to be very,very good because I trust Lovie the teacher if he's the pick. Near the end, Lovie played some cover 3 which is a glove fit for him. In modern football, you can't sit in cover 2 or 3 unless you got that pass rush and coverage behind it like the 49ers and Colts do. Even then, there are situations in which the team is going to have to man up and at least roll coverage te other way. The Texans haven't had the opportunity to get this kind of prospect in the defensive backfield ever.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
Gardner and Hamilton are two of the best prospects at their respective positions we've seen in a little while and the best positional players in this draft. Hamilton at Safety would be a little high to take at #3, so it has to be Gardner.
Booth doesn't tackle well. He is good in coverage. I think a draft of Neal and Booth would be great, if Booth wasn't Clemson trash. Never spend high draft picks on Clemson trash.
You would think after yrs of watching Clemson trash do their thing, that some would learn.
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This would be awesome, I dont think J. Johnson will be there at #13. I wouldn't have a problem with J.Johnson at #3.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
If hes the pick we’ll all have to trust Lovie in that regard. For me tho i just get nervous with cb’s that cant keep their hands off WR’s b/c its typically a textbook trait of CB’s that DON’T trust their footwork, positioning and/or they dont have the foot speed to keep up with the quicker WR’s. I think thats part of the reason why Sauce was so good in press man….b/c it allowed him to really utilize in my estimation his best asset..his length. Dude Reminds me of Antonio Cromartie who was long like this kid & an overall pretty good cb………. but he could get in trouble at times with PI calls holding WR’s. Thats not a prospect i deem worthy of the #3 slot imo.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
lol, people say he doesnt tackle well b/c he does tend to close a little too fast and out of control……at times. but that can be coached up. As he is now, he’s no worse of a tackler than Gardner who is thought of as a pretty good tackler for a cb….not from what i seen in that Bama game.
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beerlover
Hall of Fame
Cromartie is comparison in style of size/speed metric, wingspan and ball hawking ability only, mentally however, big difference. Cromartie was reactionary, went off instincts leaving himself open to mistakes, not to mention hardheaded and difficult to coach. Sauce is about understanding concepts and tendencies of opponents, he is a relentless student of film study and wants to be coached to reach his maxim potential.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Round Four Pick #107). Charlie Kolar, TE, Iowa State, 6-6 260 arm length 34 1/2" hands 10"
Need to get back on track with this mock and drill down more on selections.
Biggest question, does he fall to early 4th. Has chance to develop into a Kelsey type, find the seam, all around solid TE. The first thing is to get his first name right, lol.
Need to get back on track with this mock and drill down more on selections.
Biggest question, does he fall to early 4th. Has chance to develop into a Kelsey type, find the seam, all around solid TE. The first thing is to get his first name right, lol.
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beerlover
Hall of Fame
Now then, without sending before finished with post….
Big frame 6-6 1/2 252 34 1/2” arms.
Biggest thing after listening to Nick is fit and doing things “the Texan way” he checks all the boxes, even if he’s not super athletic or aggressive, those are workable and reason why he could still make it to the 4th rd.
Source from his draft profile -
"He'll get better as a blocker -- they all do. He's got great size, great hands and he's really productive in their passing game. He might end up being another Mark Andrews." -- Personnel executive for AFC team
Big frame 6-6 1/2 252 34 1/2” arms.
Biggest thing after listening to Nick is fit and doing things “the Texan way” he checks all the boxes, even if he’s not super athletic or aggressive, those are workable and reason why he could still make it to the 4th rd.
Source from his draft profile -
"He'll get better as a blocker -- they all do. He's got great size, great hands and he's really productive in their passing game. He might end up being another Mark Andrews." -- Personnel executive for AFC team
ghostlight
Veteran
Charlie caught my eye at the combine and hope we can get him at #107
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Without the Sauce Redux Mock Draft
Sauce has been stirred/dissected to point many, with exceptions of true believers (Me and a few more here) have turned off the Sauce, and as the board shakes out less than one week, top looks reshuffled.
I’m hearing Trevon could be Jacksonville pick #1, and KT has closed gap in Detroit but just feel Aiden is a Campbell type of player he would stick his neck/job on the line for. That leaves Texans/Caserio in great position to draft #1 OT either Neal or Ekwonu? I totally get that (Sauce needs to blend in the right kettle) of the two, Neal is more polished bottom line, Ekwonu is the higher ceiling prospect but Neal is ready to plug and play now for Lovie.
#3) Evan Neal, OT, Alabama 6-7 1/2 337
13th pick is wide open. Love Zion to bolster OL inside out who could play all five positions. If Texans go edge or corner he should still be in play or trade down, and hope he’s still there?
#13) Devin Lloyd, LB, Utah, 6-3, 237
Now that noise around Wyatt been sorted /exonerated he should be a first round pick. What’s so hard about this draft is uncertainty at the top, and filling needs. This is where that horizontal stacking on Texan big board, Nick talked about comes into play. Depth of position @ WR is probably deepest or quality Safety to fill Reeds shoes possibility as well. Think I would tend to lean towards a top slot corner/FS
#37) Jalen Pitre, S, Baylor 5-11, 198
The way this breaks down (addressing priority needs) and rising up draft boards, better odds of availability RB Zamir White. This is how mocks evolve as we get closer to draft day, projections firm up. Same time Faalele stock has dropped, probably 4th rd.
#68) Zamir White, RB, Georgia, 6-0 215 arm length 31 1/2" 8 1/2" hands
#80) Alec Pierce, WR, Cincinnati, 6-3 213 arm length 33" 9" hands
#107) Charlie Kolar, TE, Iowa State, 6-6 260 arm length 34 1/2" hands 10"
Willing to spend higher pick on edge given Amate availability early 4th. long and twitched-up with rush skills that have yet to be unlocked little more size/length than Anenih.
#108) Amate Barno, Edge, Virgina Tech 6-5 246
#183) Verone McKinley, FS, Oregon, 5-11 194 arm length 30 5/8" hands 9 1/8"
#205) Bubba Bolden, SS, Miami, 6-3 204 arm length 31 3/8" 9" hands
#206) Vederian Lowe, OT, Illinois, 6-6 320 arm length 34 7/8" arms 10 1/8"
Last change, add another CB with good size, mirror-and-match skills from press with the size and athleticism to stay connected to route runners. Spent capital to rebuild secondary, but can be done gradually over time, until ready for that #1 CB.
#245) Gregory Junior, CB, Ouachita Baptist, 6-0 203
Sauce has been stirred/dissected to point many, with exceptions of true believers (Me and a few more here) have turned off the Sauce, and as the board shakes out less than one week, top looks reshuffled.
I’m hearing Trevon could be Jacksonville pick #1, and KT has closed gap in Detroit but just feel Aiden is a Campbell type of player he would stick his neck/job on the line for. That leaves Texans/Caserio in great position to draft #1 OT either Neal or Ekwonu? I totally get that (Sauce needs to blend in the right kettle) of the two, Neal is more polished bottom line, Ekwonu is the higher ceiling prospect but Neal is ready to plug and play now for Lovie.
#3) Evan Neal, OT, Alabama 6-7 1/2 337
13th pick is wide open. Love Zion to bolster OL inside out who could play all five positions. If Texans go edge or corner he should still be in play or trade down, and hope he’s still there?
#13) Devin Lloyd, LB, Utah, 6-3, 237
Now that noise around Wyatt been sorted /exonerated he should be a first round pick. What’s so hard about this draft is uncertainty at the top, and filling needs. This is where that horizontal stacking on Texan big board, Nick talked about comes into play. Depth of position @ WR is probably deepest or quality Safety to fill Reeds shoes possibility as well. Think I would tend to lean towards a top slot corner/FS
#37) Jalen Pitre, S, Baylor 5-11, 198
The way this breaks down (addressing priority needs) and rising up draft boards, better odds of availability RB Zamir White. This is how mocks evolve as we get closer to draft day, projections firm up. Same time Faalele stock has dropped, probably 4th rd.
#68) Zamir White, RB, Georgia, 6-0 215 arm length 31 1/2" 8 1/2" hands
#80) Alec Pierce, WR, Cincinnati, 6-3 213 arm length 33" 9" hands
#107) Charlie Kolar, TE, Iowa State, 6-6 260 arm length 34 1/2" hands 10"
Willing to spend higher pick on edge given Amate availability early 4th. long and twitched-up with rush skills that have yet to be unlocked little more size/length than Anenih.
#108) Amate Barno, Edge, Virgina Tech 6-5 246
#183) Verone McKinley, FS, Oregon, 5-11 194 arm length 30 5/8" hands 9 1/8"
#205) Bubba Bolden, SS, Miami, 6-3 204 arm length 31 3/8" 9" hands
#206) Vederian Lowe, OT, Illinois, 6-6 320 arm length 34 7/8" arms 10 1/8"
Last change, add another CB with good size, mirror-and-match skills from press with the size and athleticism to stay connected to route runners. Spent capital to rebuild secondary, but can be done gradually over time, until ready for that #1 CB.
#245) Gregory Junior, CB, Ouachita Baptist, 6-0 203
beerlover
Hall of Fame
really like the way No Sauce Mock flows by blowing out that tackle position early.
addressed defensive playmaker for Lovie, incredible ceiling, would be fascinated to see how he uses him.
fixed safety/secondary with good fits to play zone or press
added one of the better RB’s and TE’s for Mills well as more speed @ WR.
Explosive edge/motor without using high pick and more OL help
addressed defensive playmaker for Lovie, incredible ceiling, would be fascinated to see how he uses him.
fixed safety/secondary with good fits to play zone or press
added one of the better RB’s and TE’s for Mills well as more speed @ WR.
Explosive edge/motor without using high pick and more OL help
I like this mock alot. I would probably flip the Lloyd and Barno picks and grab edge like Johnson or a CB like Booth at 13. I know drafting Clemson trash this high is playing with fire. What I would probably do is either draft Davis (Stops the run game and they need this having to play Henry/Taylor twice s yr) or trade down and pick Ekibetie/Ojabo if you are looking for an edge.
Love the Petrie pick. Picking Booth at #13 and Petrie at #37 would solve alot of the secondary woes. Potentially 2 great players. What I would want to know is if CnD would pick Booth this high after coming off of the sports hernia surgery?
McKinley? Got have Duck stew? LOL, I like the pick this late in the draft.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
I could definitely see edge being the position addressed in a trade down. I would love to have my pick of Ebiketie and Mafe in the 20s with two second round picks to play with for other positions.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Devin Lloyd has been one of those forgotten players (comparatively speaking to the other 1st rd. prospects) who is being underrated because of position (LB). But for Lovie he fits his 4-3 scheme, long, physical LB’s who force turnovers (Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs and Derrick Brooks). Devin would be his defensive captain with juice to have immediate impact player, for Lovie’s defense for the next 5 years minimum. Trade down could be optimal, if Texans/Caserio target Lloyd with this in mind, I’m just not focusing on trades in final mock, specific player targets only (there are others here better at that, Badboy/Optimistic).
I’m not a Booth fan so no. Won’t bring up Mafe, though, will need developmental time (low floor) don’t need to take edge (Ebiketie) early with value edge (Barno) later. Imposing as Jordan Davis is, not a three down player or currently have that interior pass rushing skill set.
Lloyd is a Swiss Army knife, do it all, hit the ground running dominating defensive chess piece who would become more impactful than Mario Williams and Jadeveon Clowney ever where for the Texans.
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beerlover
Hall of Fame
This is sample off Athletic site, just updated, for your reference as it relates to the Texans and 3rd & 15th overall picks-
The Consensus Top-300 Big Board
The Consensus Top-300 Big Board
| RANK | PLAYER | SCHOOL | POSITION | POS RK |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Aidan Hutchinson | Michigan | ED | 1 |
| 2 | Kyle Hamilton | Notre Dame | S | 1 |
| 3 | Ikem Ekwonu | North Carolina State | OT | 1 |
| 4 | Evan Neal | Alabama | OT | 2 |
| 5 | Kayvon Thibodeaux | Oregon | ED | 2 |
| 6 | Ahmad Gardner | Cincinnati | CB | 1 |
| 7 | Charles Cross | Mississippi State | OT | 3 |
| 8 | Derek Stingley Jr. | LSU | CB | 2 |
| 9 | Travon Walker | Georgia | ED | 3 |
| 10 | Garrett Wilson | Ohio State | WR | 1 |
| 11 | Jameson Williams | Alabama | WR | 2 |
| 12 | Jermaine Johnson II | Florida State | ED | 4 |
| 13 | Devin Lloyd | Utah | LB | 1 |
| 14 | Tyler Linderbaum | Iowa | OC | 1 |
| 15 | Drake London | USC | WR | 3 |
| 16 | Jordan Davis | Georgia |
Devin Lloyd has been one of those forgotten players (comparatively speaking to the other 1st rd. prospects) who is being underrated because of position (LB). But for Lovie he fits his 4-3 scheme, long, physical LB’s who force turnovers (Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs and Derrick Brooks). Devin would be his defensive captain with juice to have immediate impact player, for Lovie’s defense for the next 5 years minimum. Trade down could be optimal, if Texans/Caserio target Lloyd with this in mind, I’m just not focusing on trades in final mock, specific player targets only (there are others here better at that, Badboy/Optimistic).
I’m not a Booth fan so no. Won’t bring up Mafe, though, will need developmental time (low floor) don’t need to take edge (Ebiketie) early with value edge (Barno) later. Imposing as Jordan Davis is, not a three down player or currently have that interior pass rushing skill set.
Lloyd is a Swiss Army knife, do it all, hit the ground running dominating defensive chess piece who would become more impactful than Mario Williams and Jadeveon Clowney ever where for the Texans.
Lloyd isn't nearly the athlete Urlacher/Briggs/Briggs were. He's more like Ryans and I'm not sure that's a good fit in Lovie's defense.
What do you not like about Booth, he was almost on par with Sauce last yr. He reminds me of Terrell coming into this draft and I believe Terrell dropped to about 11. That's about right for Booth if he checks out medically. You know why I dont want Caserio to pick Booth, but it has nothing to do with talent.
Not a fan of Barno after watching him get rag dolled in Sr. Bowl practices. He's a great athlete but at best he's 2 yrs away from being 2 yrs away.
Davis- I dont know if he can rush the passer or not, he wasn't asked to do this. He certainly has the athletic profile to improve in this area. His athletic profile is that of a young Wilfork. At worst you end up with an elite run defender in a division that has Henry/Taylor. For the record I dont expect Caserio to pick Davis.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Don’t hinge your opinion entirely on one event, Senior Bowl, take longer look at his game film. But yes he still fits developmental category but then again finding those traits, bend & length in 4th rd is what it’s going to take drafting him.
Booth plays a different style completely than Sauce, more of a press corner in two high safety scheme, better comp would be less dynamic and productive version of Derek Stingley. He just doesn’t seem to have motor of cognitive ability to read and react.
Texansballer74
The Marine
I’m sold , hopefully we draft him. Dang so much talent in this draft. No way Nick the Quick and company can screw this draft up.Derrick Brooks 6003 229lbs 4.71 sec 40
Lance Briggs 6006 242lbs 4.78 sec 40
Brian Urlacher 6309 258lbs 4.61 sec 40
Devin Lloyd 6300 237lbs 4.66 40
Sure seems in the ballpark to me
He's 20lbs lighter than the guy with the same height.Derrick Brooks 6003 229lbs 4.71 sec 40
Lance Briggs 6006 242lbs 4.78 sec 40
Brian Urlacher 6309 258lbs 4.61 sec 40
Devin Lloyd 6300 237lbs 4.66 40
Sure seems in the ballpark to me
His weight is similar to guys 3" shorter.
Big dudes that can run.
Lloyd is built more like a safety
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Yes, arm length as well, new breed of coverage LB/Safety that can destroy & wreck havoc on the line or off. Versatility
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
You never know Hamilton could fall to #13? Should be off board and no trades so let it ride. Lloyd is the next defensive rated player who is scheme diverse and fill multiple roles. After him it’s Daxton Hill, CB/S Michigan. All Texan worthy
Its really tough to peg down 13 because its so likely to be a trade spot and overall uncertainty of how the board will fall for each team due to the lack of marquee QBs.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol, i think you’re a little too lost in the sauce. Dont know what tape you’ve been watching but Booth’s read and react is just fine; just as good as Gardner’s imo. Easy to be aggressive “reacting” when your hands are all over the WR like sauce. Booth was only asked to play more press corner with 2 high……doesnt mean he cant play anything else. 2, Unlike Sauce, Booth knows how to play off coverage, press bail without touching up the WR & he doesnt get lost in space like alot of cb’s who aren’t comfortable unless theyre touching up the WR. Best ball skills of all the cb’s as well the way he high points the ball like a WR….Catches the ball with his hands…like a WR. He is probably the most athletic cb in this draft.
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TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
I’m a Booth fan. I think 13 is a bit too rich for him but if Texans trade down he is a prime target. Heck he may go 13 anyway he’s a talented player.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
ive seen ALOT of mocks with him going in the mid to high teens.
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I'll take Dean over Lloyd all day.
Lloyd unfortunately gives me Zach Cunningham vibes. Lots of arm tackles and overreliance on his length making for what looks to me to be a soft kind of reaching play. On the other hand everything I've watched from Dean is explosive and sudden and flush. Shame he never posted an official 40 either because his play speed looks degrees faster than Devin's.
Jmo of course.
Lloyd unfortunately gives me Zach Cunningham vibes. Lots of arm tackles and overreliance on his length making for what looks to me to be a soft kind of reaching play. On the other hand everything I've watched from Dean is explosive and sudden and flush. Shame he never posted an official 40 either because his play speed looks degrees faster than Devin's.
Jmo of course.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Booth maybe a Charger, regardless I’ve cooled on him. Don’t like his open field skill set, especially his tackling, often times dropping his head and targeting, which could injure either one. Does have good hands with high point ability but nowhere the high point or contested catch radius of Gardner. You must absolutely hate Sauce Gardner. Booth is late first early 2nd graded player, Sauce is top 10, maybe top 5. Your entitled to your opinion.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol. I dont hate sauce, just dont think he’s head & shoulders that much better than Booth or Stingley for that matter. He’s being overrated tremendously b/c he has a cool nickname. Someone will reach for him in The top 5-10 and someone will be tremendously disappointed when he fails to live up to his projected “shutdown” status. I’ve only seen 2 of those….legitimately in my 30 years watching this game…Deion and Revis..lotta time and prospects between those 2.
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