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Not to rekindle a dying fire, BUT....

Vinny said:
Obviously the NFL teams didn't think this or he wouldn't have slipped where he did in the draft. Someone would have moved up and taken him if his game demanded he was a top 5 talent....ie, there are not enough good QB's to go around. Leinart was overhyped by ESPN and the media just like USC was. The greatest team ever? Yeah right.
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That's what I like to hear. USC was so overhyped it's ridiculous. I'm an LSU fan and everytime I hear about USC winning "back to back" national championships it makes my blood boil.

Check this out when you have time. It's a detailed report on why LSU should be the CLEAR CUT national champion of 2003. It's amazing. (scroll down to the part that says "Legitimacy and Merit: Why LSU was the sole 2003 National Champion")
 
KKHouston said:
Never said I was a Leinart fan. Just curious why you prefered Young, over Leinart. If it's NFL Caliber you want, and want now, obviously, Leinart was probably the choice to make things happen now. Regardless, Leinart isn't any more of a tool than Mr. "I don't know anything about a house" Bush.
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my point was that signability may have been a good reason not to sign another pretty boy QB..... we want somebody ugly....... like Vince... or Cutler....
 
Vinny said:
I've seen both Vick and Young play but both have radically different body types. Vick is like making Reggie Bush into a QB. Young has much better vision and doesn't have to scramble just to see downfield. I don't they they are all that comparable outside of skin color and the fact that they are both good runners. I've never seen anyone quite like VY.
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Let me make it clear - Skin Color has nothing to do with it. If you knew me, you'd know this. Why that came up, I'll never know.

My comparison is that both of these guys play in a similar way... they both will put it out there and leave nothing on the field when they leave. However, this type of QB has historically had nothing but injury problems. Great College Careers... but the intensity and speed of the NFL changes things.

I'm certainly not knocking Mr. Young or Mr. Vick. Both are incredibly talented players, with Young probably being the better of the two. It's just that given past history, these types of athletes have a tendancy to cost their teams games by being injured.

I'm glad Tack likes his man. TK as well, and from the sound of it, you too. Has nothing to do with the debate at hand... the Texans didn't choose him, or Bush, when they had the option to do so. They chose Mario, and whether or not we agree with it, it's done.
 
Vinny said:
never hurt Steve Young....but then again, he is white.
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Hilarious ....... Freaking hilarious .....

Tack fan created the comparison ...

Titan "Tack" Fan said:
Exactly (positive rep for Vinny!)

VY : Quarterback who can run the ball
Vick : running back who can throw the ball

Vince Young : Hybrid between McNair/Cunningham/McNabb/Culpepper
Michael Vick : 6'0 scrawny guy who runs a 4.3
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yet you position this as if KKHouston is bringing race into the equation ....
 
I just saw the grouping of all black QB's as the type that have problems being a QB in this league...Probably a coincidence. I know Steve Young was the same type player but he never gets mentioned when picking apart Young. I figured I'd throw him in there with the brothers.
 
KKHouston said:
Let me make it clear - Skin Color has nothing to do with it. If you knew me, you'd know this. Why that came up, I'll never know.
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You personal leanings have nothing to do with it .... if you dare to question whether Young's talent and ability will translate to a long and successful NFL career then your obviously a racist ..... :spy:
 
chuckm said:
You personal leanings have nothing to do with it .... if you dare to question whether Young's talent and ability will translate to a long and successful NFL career then your obviously a racist ..... :spy:
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I'm just openly talking about what I see....you guys can dance around it all you want, but I haven't called anyone a racist...I'm just not pretending I don't notice the banter.
 
chuckm said:
Hilarious ....... Freaking hilarious .....

Tack fan created the comparison ...



yet you position this as is KKHouston is bringing race into the equation ....
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I didn't not bring Race into the equation?
 
KKHouston said:
I didn't not bring Race into the equation?
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I'm sure he meant "as if"

he thinks it is Ironic that the Vince Supporter compares him to the best Black QBs to have played the game, and left out the White guys like Steve Young, and John Elway........
 
Vinny said:
Obviously the NFL teams didn't think this or he wouldn't have slipped where he did in the draft. Someone would have moved up and taken him if his game demanded he was a top 5 talent....ie, there are not enough good QB's to go around. Leinart was overhyped by ESPN and the media just like USC was. The greatest team ever? Yeah right.
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To be fair it very easily could have gone the other way with Leinart going 3 and Young slipping due to no fault by either one. The Titans coaches wanted Leinart but the GM wanted Young--the GM won the debate. If the same happened here, we might be watching Reggie Bush at camp.
 
Vinny said:
never hurt Steve Young....but then again, he is white.
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White and Black have NOTHING to do with this conversation. Where Young's rushing plays by design or were thay preasure related. All I'm saying is that Young and Vick strike me as have the some style "Pull it down and run"TMO and only MO. And IMO this style does not work in the NFL. See M. Vick
 
Vinny said:
I'm just openly talking about what I see....you guys can dance around it all you want, but I haven't called anyone a racist...I'm just not pretending I don't notice the banter.
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spin it however you like ..... but to dismiss other's opinions with statements like

Vinny said:
never hurt Steve Young....but then again, he is white.
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is short-sighted ...
 
infantrycak said:
To be fair it very easily could have gone the other way with Leinart going 3 and Young slipping due to no fault by either one. The Titans coaches wanted Leinart but the GM wanted Young--the GM won the debate. If the same happened here, we might be watching Reggie Bush at camp.
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I don't know how it could have gone the other way when no other team in the NFL considered Leinart a top 10 QB.
 
chuckm said:
spin it however you like ..... but to dismiss other's opinions with statements like



is short-sighted ...
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No it's not...its called giving the forum a hint that all this race by code talk isn't transparent. That's not short sighted...that's just over your head.
 
Vinny said:
I just saw the grouping of all black QB's as the type that have problems being a QB in this league...Probably a coincidence. I know Steve Young was the same type player but he never gets mentioned when picking apart Young. I figured I'd throw him in there with the brothers.
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Wondering why you would key in on this?
 
Vinny said:
No it's not...its called giving the forum a hint that all this race by code talk isn't transparent. That's not short sighted...that's just over your head.
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get over yourself Tiger ......
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm sure he meant "as if"

he thinks it is Ironic that the Vince Supporter compares him to the best Black QBs to have played the game, and left out the White guys like Steve Young, and John Elway........
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No way to compare Elway or Young to Vince. Vince is athletic. Elway and Young did it for survival... clumsy, but effective.

Thanks for the clarification, TK
 
Vinny said:
I don't know how it could have gone the other way when no other team in the NFL considered Leinart a top 10 QB.
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Well pretty easily if the Titans GM gave in to the Titans head coach and OC who wanted Leinart. Then Leinart would be the #3 pick. After that we don't know where VY would have fallen--possibly to AZ.
 
Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry said:
White and Black have NOTHING to do with this conversation. Where Young's rushing plays by design or were thay preasure related. All I'm saying is that Young and Vick strike me as have the some style "Pull it down and run"TMO and only MO. And IMO this style does not work in the NFL. See M. Vick
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It works...see Steve Young. See how this works?
 
infantrycak said:
Well pretty easily if the Titans GM gave in to the Titans head coach and OC who wanted Leinart. Then Leinart would be a #3 pick. After that we don't know where VY would have fallen--possibly to AZ.
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I think that if they thought Leinart was the guy they would have traded down. Obviously nobody thought it was worth trading up for Leinart.
 
infantrycak said:
To be fair it very easily could have gone the other way with Leinart going 3 and Young slipping due to no fault by either one. The Titans coaches wanted Leinart but the GM wanted Young--the GM won the debate. If the same happened here, we might be watching Reggie Bush at camp.
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are you insinuating the GM wanted Reggie, and the coaches wanted Mario?? or are you just saying it could've happened??

As far as Tenessee's situation, has the coaches came out and said they didn't get the guy they wanted, and will make due with what they have, or are you just festering pre-draft speculations & inuendo??

Personally(and I'm sure you know this) If I had to choose the next Peyton Manning, or the next Steve McNair, no question about it, I'd go with the next Peyton Manning.......

But since Lienart is more likely the next Ken Dorsey, I'd have gone with Vince. It's hard for me to believe Fischer would see it differently.....

I could believe the coaches wanted Cutler & the GM wanted Vince. But not Lienart....
 
Vinny said:
I think that if they thought Leinart was the guy they would have traded down. Obviously nobody thought it was worth trading up for Leinart.
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They might have wanted to trade down but just like for the Texans you have to have a trade partner and reasonable trade offer. Given the desire of both the HC and OC I don't see how it is inaccurate to say Leinart easily could have gone #3.
 
infantrycak said:
They might have wanted to trade down but just like for the Texans you have to have a trade partner and reasonable trade offer. Given the desire of both the HC and OC I don't see how it is inaccurate to say Leinart easily could have gone #3.
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The key to getting the trade is if others value the talent enough to trade up for the player. I don't see how a QB short league would let a top 3 pick (perceived value) slide out of the top 10 using this logic.
 
thunderkyss said:
are you insinuating the GM wanted Reggie, and the coaches wanted Mario?? or are you just saying it could've happened??
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There was some talk around draft time that Casserly wanted Bush more but basically with him on his way out Kubiak was in control--don't know that it is fact so call it could've happened.

As far as Tenessee's situation, has the coaches came out and said they didn't get the guy they wanted, and will make due with what they have, or are you just festering pre-draft speculations & inuendo??
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Festering? There have been reports both pre and post draft that both Fisher and Chow wanted Leinart. I am not making any assertion about the relative merits of Leinart and VY at all, just that their draft position isn't the be all for how they were perceived--see Donte Whitner, all it takes is one team to set the draft value.
 
Vinny said:
It works...see Steve Young. See how this works?
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NO I dont see how this works. As stated by someone else in this post did Young run yes but he did it to stay alive to play the next play. Vick runs to run designed playes. Plays that are for him and him alone the play book changes when Schaub comes in the game And IMO that the same style tha VY has.
 
chuckm said:
Heck no ... I wanna know which cheerleader KKHouston lives next to?
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Hahaha... One clue.. a Five year Veteran.

I borrow Sugar and Milk from her all the time. Wonder if she's hip to me, yet?
 
Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry said:
NO I dont see how this works. As stated by someone else in this post did Young run yes but he did it to stay alive to play the next play. Vick runs to run designed playes. Plays that are for him and him alone the play book changes when Schaub comes in the game And IMO that the same style tha VY has.
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Young eventually matured into that QB....he didn't tear up the NFL with the Bucs and was considered a running QB in College when he first enrolled and a guy who ran too much early in his career. Young wasn't a scrambler...Young was a runner. Like Young in many ways.

When Young came to the 49ers in 1987, he played football recklessly. He would look to run, and not necessarily out of bounds, but over linebackers. He once took off running, after he lost his helmet, with several San Diego Chargers' defensive players in close pursuit. And this was in an exhibition game.

But watching Montana and learning from Bill Walsh, Mike Holmgren and Shanahan, Young eventually became such a refined quarterback he actually finished his career with better passing statistics than Montana.

"I came into the league and people that moved around, scramblers, were called mad scramblers, and that was because no one thought they could actually be efficient in the pocket, (that) they could actually overcome what they thought was a deficiency, their proclivity to head out of the pocket too early and try to do something else on their own and cause all kinds of havoc on the offense," Young said.

"I recognized that there was a reason that stereotype was there, because it did hurt offenses, that you had to learn to sit in the pocket and play. ... It's particularly difficult when you have this extra ability, to have the patience to learn the game, to learn to recognize that to be a quarterback in the NFL up to today, you've got to do it in the pocket.
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http://allstarz.hollywood.com/steveyoung/hof02.htm
 
Vinny said:
The key to getting the trade is if others value the talent enough to trade up for the player. I don't see how a QB short league would let a top 3 pick (perceived value) slide out of the top 10 using this logic.
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Just like we have discussed before every draft--the cost of trading up is very high. It is one thing to think a player is worth #3 and completely another to decide you want to move from #9 to #3 to go get him.

There are also all sorts of reasons why teams pass on players even if they believe they have top 10 talent--see, Ben Roethlisberger. And Leinart went at 10.
 
infantrycak said:
Festering? There have been reports both pre and post draft that both Fisher and Chow wanted Leinart. I am not making any assertion about the relative merits of Leinart and VY at all, just that their draft position isn't the be all for how they were perceived--see Donte Whitner, all it takes is one team to set the draft value.
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I'm just asking.... being they took Young, my thoughts are that Lienart was a smoke screen........ unless, you have a report saying that Fisher & Chow wanted the other guy...... not reports of rumors, but Fisher saying..... "We wanted Lienart, but we got hosed..." of course Fisher quiting, because he doesn't want to have to fight with teaching a young mobile QB how to play the game again would be enough to satisfy me.

But if Fisher is excited, and the reports are coming in that Vince is impressing everyone, and Fisher doesn't come out and say, "I was wrong, Vince was the right choice", then personally, I'm going to believe they got the guy they wanted.

But that's just me.
 
Well- if things do go south this year and we draft early next year how about Brady Quinn, under Charlie Weiss at Notre Dame? Coming from the ultimate in a thinking Quaterback system, Quinn will be number 1 in 2007. As for drafting a RB, Denver is sarting,as of right now, an undrafted rookie! And Kubiak came from this mold. I like Bush ( read into that all you want ), and I like Young, but the RB position was never seriously on the Texan board, and Vince hurt himself on the wonderlick, and don't tell me about Marino, if you can't diguest the play book, you"ll are only Vick, with a better arm.
 
srstex said:
and Vince hurt himself on the wonderlick, and don't tell me about Marino, if you can't diguest the play book, you"ll are only Vick, with a better arm.
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uh oh FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!!!!!!!
 
infantrycak said:
Just like we have discussed before every draft--the cost of trading up is very high. It is one thing to think a player is worth #3 and completely another to decide you want to move from #9 to #3 to go get him.
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So you're saying even though Matt looked like he was a top 3 pick(according to ESPN), those who make the decisions, didn't think he was worth the price??
 
KKHouston said:
Let me make it clear - Skin Color has nothing to do with it. If you knew me, you'd know this. Why that came up, I'll never know.

My comparison is that both of these guys play in a similar way... they both will put it out there and leave nothing on the field when they leave. However, this type of QB has historically had nothing but injury problems. Great College Careers... but the intensity and speed of the NFL changes things.

I'm certainly not knocking Mr. Young or Mr. Vick. Both are incredibly talented players, with Young probably being the better of the two. It's just that given past history, these types of athletes have a tendancy to cost their teams games by being injured.

I'm glad Tack likes his man. TK as well, and from the sound of it, you too. Has nothing to do with the debate at hand... the Texans didn't choose him, or Bush, when they had the option to do so. They chose Mario, and whether or not we agree with it, it's done.
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Don't forget Fran Tarkentun ( yeah I knoe I can't spell )-Giants & Vikings
 
KKHouston said:
No way to compare Elway or Young to Vince. Vince is athletic. Elway and Young did it for survival... clumsy, but effective.

Thanks for the clarification, TK
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Elway and Steve Young were both very athletic ... they were'nt surviving they made plays . If VY gets in their league he'll be in the HOF not the other way around , and while he has the talent he needs to have a career first .
 
srstex said:
Well- if things do go south this year and we draft early next year how about Brady Quinn, under Charlie Weiss at Notre Dame? Coming from the ultimate in a thinking Quaterback system, Quinn will be number 1 in 2007. As for drafting a RB, Denver is sarting,as of right now, an undrafted rookie! And Kubiak came from this mold. I like Bush ( read into that all you want ), and I like Young, but the RB position was never seriously on the Texan board, and Vince hurt himself on the wonderlick, and don't tell me about Marino, if you can't diguest the play book, you"ll are only Vick, with a better arm.
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Yeah, Vince really hurt himself on the Wonderlic. Going #3 in the draft and first QB taken...damn that test really affected the Titans feelings.

F the wonderlic. Vince Young can be deaf, dumb, and blind for all i care as long as he wins us games.

Bringing up the wonderlic is pointless. These guys aren't applying for med school.
 
Vinny said:
Young eventually matured into that QB....he didn't tear up the NFL with the Bucs and was considered a running QB in College and a guy who ran too much early in his career. Young wasn't a scrambler...Young was a runner. Like Young in many ways.
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You're wrong. S.Young was a scrambler. Fran Tarkenton style. He was athletic, but no where near Vince's abilities. Well, he was like him in another way... you know: The Last Name.

S.Young also was known for his intelligence. That, and snubbing the NFL for the USFL. Something Vince is not known for.

Bring your race card out again, Mr. Cochran. "If you don't draft, you must be daft". I made a comment about Vince's intelligence. Is that a race thing, too?
 
infantrycak said:
Well pretty easily if the Titans GM gave in to the Titans head coach and OC who wanted Leinart. Then Leinart would be the #3 pick. After that we don't know where VY would have fallen--possibly to AZ.
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On this I heard that the OWNER was the one to make the call to take VY. Heard the FO and coaches all wanted Leinart. I'm realy not sure this was months ago and I'm sure Tack Fan will correct me if I'm wrong. LOL
 
Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry said:
On this I heard that the OWNER was the one to make the call to take VY. Heard the FO and coaches all wanted Leinart.
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I've heard John McClain say that same thing several times ...... FWIW ....
 
thunderkyss said:
are you insinuating the GM wanted Reggie, and the coaches wanted Mario?? or are you just saying it could've happened??

As far as Tenessee's situation, has the coaches came out and said they didn't get the guy they wanted, and will make due with what they have, or are you just festering pre-draft speculations & inuendo??

Personally(and I'm sure you know this) If I had to choose the next Peyton Manning, or the next Steve McNair, no question about it, I'd go with the next Peyton Manning.......

But since Lienart is more likely the next Ken Dorsey, I'd have gone with Vince. It's hard for me to believe Fischer would see it differently.....

I could believe the coaches wanted Cutler & the GM wanted Vince. But not Lienart....
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Manning or McNair ? McNair every time ! I am an old Oiler fan, and I have seen him too many times become SUPERMAN to ever take Manning over Steve. Ravens are in the playoffs this year.
 
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