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Martin v. Incognito: [update] Wells Report released

steelbtexan said:
This is true

But apparently most of the Dolphins OL mates agrred with Incognito and backed him up. The Dolphins coaches must have agreed with Incognito also because they didn't stop it. This means that Martin wont be long for Miami.

Martin's biggest knock coming out of college was that he wasn't physical enough. Sounds like Martin will be Gary's RT of the future. I'm sure he will fit in quite well with Newton.

BTW, this is why it will be a long time before an openly gay player will be welcomed on a team. Teams look to avoid stuff like this like the plague. If you were to ask Ireland if he's glad that he drafted Martin or if he wishes he would've passed on Martin and Ireland was honest, I garuntee you Martin wouldn't be a Dolphin today.
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I'll take him. He's better than what we have now at RT.....


In any event, SteelB you know me well enough that I hate the "wussification of 'Merica"

If this "supposed hazing" came from "the guys", that's one thing, but coming from this POS Cognito, EFF Him!!!

I don't mean to speak for nor do I represent Antonio Smith, I'm pretty sure the Ninja would agree..

Bottom line, this dude is a POS!!! I hope he never plays another down in the NFL!
 
steelbtexan said:
This is true

And be cut before the start of next season if the Lawyers will let the Dolphins cut him. Martin has been soft and played terrible this yr. He was being counted on to be the Dolphins LT for the next 10 yrs. He couldn't handle those responsibilities and was weak minded.

This story gets the fans mind off of his terrible play and focuses on his feelings, which was his goal in all of this. Incognito was trying to toughen Martin up and help the team. Did he go too far and use despicable behavior? Yes.

But apparently most of the Dolphins OL mates agrred with Incognito and backed him up. The Dolphins coaches must have agreed with Incognito also because they didn't stop it. This means that Martin wont be long for Miami.

Martin's biggest knock coming out of college was that he wasn't physical enough. Sounds like Martin will be Gary's RT of the future. I'm sure he will fit in quite well with Newton.

BTW, this is why it will be a long time before an openly gay player will be welcomed on a team. Teams look to avoid stuff like this like the plague. If you were to ask Ireland if he's glad that he drafted Martin or if he wishes he would've passed on Martin and Ireland was honest, I garuntee you Martin wouldn't be a Dolphin today.
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I'm simply flabbergasted by this troglodyte mentality of "gotta tuffen 'im up if he wanna play ball" mentality being endorsed by a small minority.

Have you actually READ what Incognito said and did? Do you actually know that the NFL is a PROFESSIONAL football league? Do you understand that this goes above making a rook carry your pads or two-a-days?

There is a right way to be a MAN and carry yourself in this game of professional athletes and it's obvious that this game needs more JJ Watts and Andre Johnsons and Arian Fosters and need ZERO guys like Incognito. How is a game rife with tough guys not filled with incidents like this? Because most of them are not crappy scum bags of human beings who have a warped sense of what it means to be a man.

Not everyone is mentally or physically cut out to play the game, but let the GAME and the competition and PERFORMANCE suss out who should be on the field, not just racist, maschismo jackhole like Richie. He's not suited to be anywhere around other people, let alone a game like football.
 
IDEXAN said:
I'm gonna have to do this Jen, I don't want to, but I must to make my point.
I'm guessing you've never played football ? OK, well I have, both in high school and in college, though I assure my collegiate football experience was very unremarkable and the scholastic end of it not much better. But while playing in HS and college, I can't tell you how many incidents I've seen of bullying, varying degrees to be sure. And actually a couple of them were pretty flagrant, pretty nasty situations in other words. It's part of the territory, it's a very, very physical sport played by some really tough guys, certainly at the NFL level. And it's also tough mentally and psychologically because much of it is about being the most macho person in the contest, winning whichever mano-a-mano contest a player might be involved in that's always playing out on the field be it CB vs WR, OT vs edge-rusher, OC vs NT, TE vs LB, etc. In other words, a guy has to have a certain mentality or psyche along with athletic talent, or he's not got what it takes for serious football, certainly not pro ball. And seminars or sensitive training or whatever aren't gonna correct the situation, not for the bully or his victim. Best solution would be to change occupations to office work, or something, anything that's civilized because pro football isn't.
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toronto said:
Schefter tweets suggest Ingognito is a serious *********

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 1m
NFL has heard Richie Incognito's VM to Jonathan Martin. Dolphins have heard the voice mail.
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 4m
1: Richie Incognito left this VM for Jonathan Martin in April 2013: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of (expletive)...
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 3m
2. More Incognito to Martin: "I saw you on Twitter, you been training ten weeks. (I want to) (expletive) in your (expl) mouth....
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 3m
3. Incognito VM to Martin: "(I'm going to) slap your (expletive) mouth. (I'm going to) slap your real mother across the face (laughter).
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 2m
4. Incognito to Martin, all on same VM in April 2013: "(Expletive) you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."
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If a guy is going after you like Incognito is going after Martin (which apparently happened constantly at your high school and college) the only way to not be a wuss would be for Martin to smash Incognito in the head until his brains all ran out.

So IDEXAN, how many of your own teammates did you kill in high school and college? Or are you just a big ***** wussy that even Johnathan Martin would pick on? Or are you just full of crap?
 
RazorOye said:
yea, the voicemail messages and the texts and the racial slurs and the fines and suspensions were all just some clever farce. He was channeling his Prince Hal mischief so that he might emerge a heroic Henry V.

Is that about it?



No. There's nothing "apparently" about any of this. This is you making a scenario fit what it must for the rest of your narrative to cohere and calling it the logical conclusion.

It's sorta impressive how certain you and IDEXAN are in your conclusions with how little you actually know.



Ibid.
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I'm asking you if you think his Dolphin teammates knew what was going on between Incognito and Martin? If they didn't they shoul have. Or was Ritchie the Lone Ranger who hated Martin because he is a racist POS. Why didn't Martin's fellow OL mates back him up? Especially since racism is normally taboo in the lockeroom? Martin's OL coach should've been told or knew what was going on, but nothing was said/done about it. Why was this?

Just because I think Incognito was trying to toughen Martin up doesn't mean that I dont think Incognito is a racist/egomanical POS. He is, I find it humorous that posters think I was trying to justify Incognito's actions.

Just to make it clear Incognito is a horrible human being. With that said the Cowgirls need a OG and Ritchie will be cut in 4 wks, so Incognito will be a Cowgirl this yr at some point this yr.
 
If Antonio smith had connected with bashing incognitos face with his helmet he would have done the world a favor. I can see dickey incognito getting himself in a seriously violent altercation the way this dumb ape acts.
 
steelbtexan said:
I'm asking you if you think his Dolphin teammates knew what was going on between Incognito and Martin? If they didn't they shoul have. Or was Ritchie the Lone Ranger who hated Martin because he is a racist POS. Why didn't Martin's fellow OL mates back him up? Especially since racism is normally taboo in the lockeroom? Martin's OL coach should've been told or knew what was going on, but nothing was said/done about it. Why was this?

Just because I think Incognito was trying to toughen Martin up doesn't mean that I dont think Incognito is a racist/egomanical POS. He is, I find it humorous that posters think I was trying to justify Incognito's actions.

Just to make it clear Incognito is a horrible human being. With that said the Cowgirls need a OG and Ritchie will be cut in 4 wks, so Incognito will be a Cowgirl this yr at some point this yr.
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One of the linemates is Pouncey . He wore a free Aaron Hernandez hat around .
 
steelbtexan said:
Just because I think Incognito was trying to toughen Martin up doesn't mean that I dont think Incognito is a racist/egomanical POS. He is, I find it humorous that posters think I was trying to justify Incognito's actions.
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You REALLY think that Incognito was trying to toughen Martin up? Incognito was being a dick and a bully because that's what he IS. He was serving his own ego and rubbing one out while doing it probably. He just found an easy victim who wouldn't stoop to Richie's level.
 
I think this situation is cut and dry. The kind of shenanigans that the Texans pull are cheeky and fun, but the kind that Incognito pulls are cruel and tragic, which makes them not really shenanigans at all. They are evil shenanigans.
 
We were talking about this at work today and thought that the worst thing was that it wasn't really considered a big deal until the almighty n-word got involved.

It seemed like that as long as he had left that one word out, Incognito would have been given a pass and Martin would have been considered a wuss. It's a shame really.
 
Wonder where Martin ends up ? We could use him as he's more of a finesse type Olineman with impressive athleticism so he can run and get to the second-level with ease, a "natural" for the Texans' ZBS. On the other hand Incognito is surely radio-active NFL wise and his best and only bet may be Canadian ball.
 
steelbtexan said:
I'm asking you if you think his Dolphin teammates knew what was going on between Incognito and Martin? If they didn't they shoul have. Or was Ritchie the Lone Ranger who hated Martin because he is a racist POS. Why didn't Martin's fellow OL mates back him up? Especially since racism is normally taboo in the lockeroom? Martin's OL coach should've been told or knew what was going on, but nothing was said/done about it. Why was this?

Just because I think Incognito was trying to toughen Martin up doesn't mean that I dont think Incognito is a racist/egomanical POS. He is, I find it humorous that posters think I was trying to justify Incognito's actions.

Just to make it clear Incognito is a horrible human being. With that said the Cowgirls need a OG and Ritchie will be cut in 4 wks, so Incognito will be a Cowgirl this yr at some point this yr.
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Because you ARE trying to justify his actions. You're essentially saying, "Oh, call the black dude a N-word. That'll toughen him up. He's weak."
 
I hope Incognito ends up in the NFC North so that he can face off with Suh and hopefully they can kill each other on the field.
 
So before we start let's just be clear that I'm goign off what has been reported, and what I have heard, not what the truth is.

First off I think there are plenty of examples of how Incognito is f'ing crazy and should not be in the NFL anymore period.

- Martin has to pay $15k to olinemen on trip he doesn't go on.

normal rookie hazing in the NFL, not uncommon probably a bit much in my view, but I'm not making near as much money as they are.

- Martin gets brutal voicemail from Incognito after missings OTAs.

I would probably have something to say to a teammate that missed OTA's as well, that's a critical offense from my standpoint. Now that being said do I think he deserved to have his life threatened by a crazy POS and called racial slurs? No. Could have had left a Hey Jonathon, wtf where are you at message? Yes. Do I think Incognito was the only one to probably message him about missing OTAs? Probably not.

- Incognito's father on the forum post..

Seriously this just goes to show the level of crazy that exists with this whole family, cut bait and run NFL, the league and players deserve better than this POS.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the two stories, and in my experience in the locker room someone usually steps in and tells them to tone it down. Now that being said the entire locker room may or may not have been involved, and to Martin's defense Incognito is not one you can reason with. I feel sorry for Martin but I suspect there was a better way to handle it to just walk way from the team, but I could be wrong as well. If he approached the coaches and was told to deal with it then shame on them, and good for him.

I'm sure we'll get more coverage as the time goes on, but I'm glad about one thing, and I think that Incognito will have played his last down and a player in the NFL.
 
I am amazed at people (generalization) defending Incognito or any practice of extortion. Besides the traditional stick them with the bill for ONE meal when they get their contract, and carrying shoulderpads, the rest is ridiculous.

Could you imagine getting together with co-workers and forcing the new guy to pay for everyones lunch while the new guy stays in the office? That doesnt happen because in the real world you have to show respect to one another. In the NFL, apparently respect isnt given, its taken.
 
houstonspartan said:
Because you ARE trying to justify his actions. You're essentially saying, "Oh, call the black dude a N-word. That'll toughen him up. He's weak."
Click to expand...


Total BS

The N word has nothing to do with toughening him up. In fact if Ritchie hadn't used the N word all of this wouldn't be a big deal to the masses, as another poster pointed out. Which is sad.

The fact that both white and African-American teammates have come out in support of Incognito, calling him a great teammate and a leader. (I heard this on the news this morning) speaks volumes. Why aren't they supporting Martin? (Legitimate ?)

It's kinda sad really.

PS, dont put words in my mouth
 
Question to the troglodytes that are rationalizing, condoning, defending, or in any other way excusing Incognito's behavior:

How far is too far? I mean, I understand hazing and I understand team camaraderie. Hazing is at its heart a team building exercise, but it can be taken too far. So if you think Martin is just being a wuss and Incognito is justified, how far is too far? Be specific, please.
 
eriadoc said:
Question to the troglodytes that are rationalizing, condoning, defending, or in any other way excusing Incognito's behavior:

How far is too far? I mean, I understand hazing and I understand team camaraderie. Hazing is at its heart a team building exercise, but it can be taken too far. So if you think Martin is just being a wuss and Incognito is justified, how far is too far? Be specific, please.
Click to expand...

My question, is that when it was clear (based on the team releasing the player, they obviously know something we don't) to the other linemen, teammates, coaching staff, you name it, that this was going on, why did they enable it?

This will likely wind up costing them a lot of money, to say nothing of the reputations that will be sullied, starting with Philbin and his offensive coaching staff.
 
steelbtexan said:
Total BS

The N word has nothing to do with toughening him up. In fact if Ritchie hadn't used the N word all of this wouldn't be a big deal to the masses, as another poster pointed out. Which is sad.

The fact that both white and African-American teammates have come out in support of Incognito, calling him a great teammate and a leader. (I heard this on the news this morning) speaks volumes. Why aren't they supporting Martin? (Legitimate ?)

It's kinda sad really.

PS, dont put words in my mouth
Click to expand...

As I said earlier in this thread: stupid comes in all races. Those players that are supporting this idiot are morons.

And, sorry, but, yes, you are justifying his words and actions.
 
eriadoc said:
Question to the troglodytes that are rationalizing, condoning, defending, or in any other way excusing Incognito's behavior:

How far is too far? I mean, I understand hazing and I understand team camaraderie. Hazing is at its heart a team building exercise, but it can be taken too far. So if you think Martin is just being a wuss and Incognito is justified, how far is too far? Be specific, please.
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Not that I'm a troglodyte but,

Having a man pay $15,000 and not letting him go on the trip to Vegas is taking it too far.

This was an important season for the Dolphins, they spent alot of $$$$ in FA and trading up in the draft. This season was important enough to Martin for him to show up for OTA's. This was probably 1 reason why nobody respected Martin on the Dolphins. Including Management/Coaches/Teammates and the reason Martin felt likehe had nobody to complain too.

Martin will get another job in the NFL if he wants to play, probably not with the Dolphins. But he will get no respect from his teammates around the NFL. He broke the code by taking team problems outside the lockerroom.

His career is permanently damaged. (Sorry that's just the way it is.) I really question if Martin really wants to play football. Because of this, I smell a lawsuit in the near future. Afterall it really will come down to Martin getting paid.
 
eriadoc said:
Question to the troglodytes that are rationalizing, condoning, defending, or in any other way excusing Incognito's behavior:

How far is too far? I mean, I understand hazing and I understand team camaraderie. Hazing is at its heart a team building exercise, but it can be taken too far. So if you think Martin is just being a wuss and Incognito is justified, how far is too far? Be specific, please.
Click to expand...

I personally am not excusing Incognito, he's crazy and a POS, I hope he never gets to see another football field again.

- the voicemail incognito left was over the top, but I do believe that missing OTA's would get you called out by other players, I'm willing to bet Incognito was not the only one to text/call Martin for missing OTAs.

- the dinner/trip thing is somewhat normal in the NFL for the rookies, they were raking in rather large salaries during the years when rookies were getting multi million dollar deals so I kind of understand how the veterans felt. I'm sort of split on this, do I see it unreasonable to take the veterans out and have buy them dinner? No, do I see it rather crazy that some of these bills are outrageously priced upwards of 50k, absolutely.

This goes beyond being taped to the goal post, and yes I've taped a few players to the goalpost, and one coach in my playing days.
 
houstonspartan said:
As I said earlier in this thread: stupid comes in all races. Those players that are supporting this idiot are morons.

And, sorry, but, yes, you are justifying his words and actions.
Click to expand...

Where did I say one thing supporting Incognito, I was just explaing the culture of the Dolphins. Read my above post.

You are interpeting things wrong. Or reading them the way you want to believe. I'm done with this part of the conversation.
 
Sooooo nobody else here thinks that Martin missed OTAs due to Incognito's harassment? I haven't seen a timeline of the events (might help), but I'm pretty sure I read that this stuff started in April, well before OTAs start.
 
Incognito really looks like the idiot meathead characters in professional wrestling. I'd like to believe he's acting like a dbag POS, but I think he is genuinely distrurbed.
 
Dutchrudder said:
Sooooo nobody else here thinks that Martin missed OTAs due to Incognito's harassment? I haven't seen a timeline of the events (might help), but I'm pretty sure I read that this stuff started in April, well before OTAs start.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, this is all going to come out. I fully expect this kid to launch a massive lawsuit at some point, probably against the team, and its feasible his own union. Going to get very messy, which to me was why the Dolphins moved so quickly to cut Incognito. I have no doubt that was partially, if not completely based on legal advice.
 
I understand picking up a meal but when they run 15k+ for a meal I think as a coach I would step in an end the practice because I see that as taking it too far.



edit:


Whether tackle Jonathan Martin was the victim of bullying isn't the only issue affecting the Dolphins. The Miami Herald's Adam Beasley tweeted Sunday that one young defensive player has nearly gone broke because he's been pressured to pay for older players.


They've gotten sucked into the Miami lifestyle, and the veterans are using the younger players as an ATM, I'm told.
- Adam Beasley (@AdamHBeasley) November 3, 2013

Recently, a younger player was handed the tab for a $30,000 team dinner. The rookie minimum this year is around $400.000.
- Adam Beasley (@AdamHBeasley) November 3, 2013


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...hins-player-nearly-broke-paying-for-teammates
 
Texan_Bill said:
I'll take him. He's better than what we have now at RT.....
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Unfortunately Jeff Ireland is the kind of jerk who'll hold & sit Martin out of spite. He's the same guy who withheld Sage Rosenfels, who he had no plans for, from us in 2011 only to release him weeks later.

Honoring Earl 34 said:
Wrong Buckwheat ... my doctor said my troglodytes were high and I better watch it .
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I hear Krispy Kremes are good for that. [IMGwidthsize=42]http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/f/fat_woman_eating_donuts-2165.gif[/IMG]

Blake said:
Could you imagine getting together with co-workers and forcing the new guy to pay for everyones lunch while the new guy stays in the office? That doesnt happen because in the real world...
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But it does in the NFL, as Mike Golic has explained. His understanding is that money was "owed" as part of a rookie kangaroo court veterans run to "fine" rookies for various infractions. Sounds excessive to me and perhaps is outdated, but it's not unheard of.

Txn_in_Oki said:
We were talking about this at work today and thought that the worst thing was that it wasn't really considered a big deal until the almighty n-word got involved...
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I have an issue with that, but calling the guy "at home" and leaving threats bringing his family into it is outside the lines.

Worse for me, though, is Incognito being the source of what is now widely publicly known very personal information about Martin's attempted suicide(s). Did Incognito make all buddy-buddy nice guy with Martin to ferret out embarrassing information that he could use to bully and humiliate Martin with? SOP for bullies. That's HIPAA type privacy info. If Richie tough guy is sharing that info with his loudmouth, jackhole father he very likely bullied Martin about it. And that's beyond the pale.
 
All of Incognito's college and pro teams have ended up suspending him, cutting ties with him or both

It was early 2002 and Incognito was just a freshman at Nebraska, but that didn't stop him from picking fights or harassing teammates, in this case a non-scholarship offensive lineman named Jack Limbaugh. Incognito plowed into Limbaugh's back during practice, knocking him to the ground for no apparent reason.

Limbaugh responded by getting up, grabbing his equipment and walking out, according to the diary of teammate David Kolowski.

"Richie was a guy who came in with all the talent in the world, and Jack was an easy mark for a guy like Richie, who came across as a bully," Kolowski told USA TODAY Sports on Monday. "Jack was a walk-on just trying to make the team. There was a bit of that kind of bullying with Jack. He didn't appreciate it, but in that culture you don't run and cry to the coaches."

"Hate is a strong word but I've always hated Incognito," Lawrence Jackson, a former NFL defensive end, said Monday on Twitter. "Just for perspective, he's the guy that makes you want to spit in his face."

"He didn't know where to draw the line," said Kolowski, who published Diary of a Husker.

There's a pattern at work here, much of which resembles an old stereotype: The privileged jock who likes to make life miserable for opponents and easy targets.
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"Hate is a strong word but I've always hated Incognito," Lawrence Jackson, a former NFL defensive end, said Monday on Twitter. "Just for perspective, he's the guy that makes you want to spit in his face."

"Richie Incognito is... a dirty and disrespectful player," Jackson said on Twitter. "For those wondering...I played him 4x when I was with Seattle. We all knew to watch our KNEES and be alert for his antics."
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2012Champs said:
Recently, a younger player was handed the tab for a $30,000 team dinner. The rookie minimum this year is around $400.000.
— Adam Beasley (@AdamHBeasley) November 3, 2013
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This blows my mind.

I understand the "hazing ritual" when it's silly stuff. Shaving heads, taping to goal posts, making rookies sing pop songs in front of the whole team kinda' stuff is just silly fun and out in the open.

However, messing with a man's paycheck is a whole other issue. Then it becomes personal. It crosses the line of professionalism to criminal. Buying donuts for a team meeting is one thing, but 30 freakin' grand???! No way can anyone logical justify this behavior without resorting to some really messed up pretzel logic.
 
Dutchrudder said:
Sooooo nobody else here thinks that Martin missed OTAs due to Incognito's harassment? I haven't seen a timeline of the events (might help), but I'm pretty sure I read that this stuff started in April, well before OTAs start.
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I have not seen any data on why Martin missed OTA's if this was the case and he had exhausted all other options then so be it. I feel though that there is more going on than we've seen though, we only have one side of the story and it's damning no doubt, but the NFL is a high pressure place that some people can't take the pressure.

Not every job is right for every person.
 
Double Barrel said:
This blows my mind.

I understand the "hazing ritual" when it's silly stuff. Shaving heads, taping to goal posts, making rookies sing pop songs in front of the whole team kinda' stuff is just silly fun and out in the open.

However, messing with a man's paycheck is a whole other issue. Then it becomes personal. It crosses the line of professionalism to criminal. Buying donuts for a team meeting is one thing, but 30 freakin' grand???! No way can anyone logical justify this behavior without resorting to some really messed up pretzel logic.
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It's getting a bit out of hand for sure, 4500/5000 I could see, but after that it's like uh yo I'm the only one here.
 
I totally feel for Johnathan Martin. Even as a young analyst at a bulge bracket investment bank, I got hazed along with every other first year analyst. And it got to the point where I was extremely miserable, not because of the work-load and the 80-100 hour weeks, but because of the people there. It's not just a football thing. It happens everywhere.

What I don't get is why hazing is accepted. What may be fun for some may be utter embarrassment for another. There's a reason why hazing is illegal in schools. Why is it allowed in the work place?
 
Double Barrel said:
This blows my mind.

I understand the "hazing ritual" when it's silly stuff. Shaving heads, taping to goal posts, making rookies sing pop songs in front of the whole team kinda' stuff is just silly fun and out in the open.

However, messing with a man's paycheck is a whole other issue. Then it becomes personal. It crosses the line of professionalism to criminal. Buying donuts for a team meeting is one thing, but 30 freakin' grand???! No way can anyone logical justify this behavior without resorting to some really messed up pretzel logic.
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I think Dez Bryant picked up a 55k tab
 
CretorFrigg said:
I totally feel for Johnathan Martin. Even as a young analyst at a bulge bracket investment bank, I got hazed along with every other first year analyst. And it got to the point where I was extremely miserable, not because of the work-load and the 80-100 hour weeks, but because of the people there. It's not just a football thing. It happens everywhere.

What I don't get is why hazing is accepted. What may be fun for some may be utter embarrassment for another. There's a reason why hazing is illegal in schools. Why is it allowed in the work place?
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It really shouldnt be allowed anywhere
 
Double Barrel said:
This blows my mind.

I understand the "hazing ritual" when it's silly stuff. Shaving heads, taping to goal posts, making rookies sing pop songs in front of the whole team kinda' stuff is just silly fun and out in the open.

However, messing with a man's paycheck is a whole other issue. Then it becomes personal. It crosses the line of professionalism to criminal. Buying donuts for a team meeting is one thing, but 30 freakin' grand???! No way can anyone logical justify this behavior without resorting to some really messed up pretzel logic.
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According to people on this board, they were just trying to "toughen him up..."
 
It won't be long before incognito comes out with a b.s. mea culpa in an effort to salvage his career. Whatever B.S. he says some team will give him a job and I bet he'll find a way to eff that one up too.
 
toronto said:
Dread, I have been there, and am still crawling out. It really is a black hole, or quicksand. I so frigging appreciate knowing many have been down this road. It sucks.
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Whenever I hear about someone taking his or her own life, part of me dies a little because I know the place they were in before they found themselves in that dark tunnel and heading for what they assumed to be the only way out.
 
CretorFrigg said:
I totally feel for Johnathan Martin. Even as a young analyst at a bulge bracket investment bank, I got hazed along with every other first year analyst. And it got to the point where I was extremely miserable, not because of the work-load and the 80-100 hour weeks, but because of the people there. It's not just a football thing. It happens everywhere.

What I don't get is why hazing is accepted. What may be fun for some may be utter embarrassment for another. There's a reason why hazing is illegal in schools. Why is it allowed in the work place?
Click to expand...

Hazing is dumb man. I never participated in it even though I went through my fair share of it. Luckily as a freshman in high school I didn't get beat up like other freshman because of my older brother. I did have to deal with it pretty tough first year in college though but it is what it is.

None of them made it personal though which is the problem with this story. I don't understand anyone who even thinks about this twice. If you have kids then you would never want your sons to deal with the likes of Incognito. I would have tried to kick his ass, but everyone isn't wired like me. I can't blame Martin because he chose a different approach. Trying to justify Incognito's actions by pointing out Martin's actions or lack of reactions makes me think people who are doing it are the scum of the earth to me.
 
steelbtexan said:
Not that I'm a troglodyte but,

Having a man pay $15,000 and not letting him go on the trip to Vegas is taking it too far.
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So the hazing went too far. Then you throw in a huge BUT --

This was an important season for the Dolphins, they spent alot of $$$$ in FA and trading up in the draft. This season was important enough to Martin for him to show up for OTA's. This was probably 1 reason why nobody respected Martin on the Dolphins. Including Management/Coaches/Teammates and the reason Martin felt likehe had nobody to complain too.
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Or maybe he missed OTAs because he felt like no one on his TEAM had his back, and in fact were siding with Incognito.

silvrhand said:
I personally am not excusing Incognito, he's crazy and a POS, I hope he never gets to see another football field again.

- the voicemail incognito left was over the top, but I do believe that missing OTA's would get you called out by other players, I'm willing to bet Incognito was not the only one to text/call Martin for missing OTAs.
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You people and your BUT fetishes .... When someone does something wrong that precipitates a response, you don't say "yeah, he was wrong BUT". You just say he was wrong and recognize that the results are dependent upon that wrong. And again, the guy missed OTAs because of the hazing. The hazing didn't start because he missed OTAs.

silvrhand said:
I have not seen any data on why Martin missed OTA's if this was the case and he had exhausted all other options then so be it. I feel though that there is more going on than we've seen though, we only have one side of the story and it's damning no doubt, but the NFL is a high pressure place that some people can't take the pressure.

Not every job is right for every person.
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So the job is only right for the Incognitos of the world? Or just the people who can put up with the Incognitos of the world? God save us.
 
Here's also another problem for me here. Hazing and things like it are supposed to bring people closer. The locker room is a brotherhood. I'm all for someone messing with another guy in good fun to turn around and accept him as one of their own. Thats not what happened here....... O-Linemen are notoriously known as the tightest group around. The fact he went where he did shows me that he was trying to intimidate the guy. And then called him to probably intimidate him some more after he left the team because he said he talked to him and everything is all good. The more I type this the more it sounds ridiculous. I don't know how anyone can't see this.
 
This is (part of) the culture they face...

NFL personnel question 'coward' Martin for not challenging Incognito

"I think Jonathan Martin is a weak person," said one personnel man, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "If Incognito did offend him racially, that's something you have to handle as a man! Mike Pouncey was a rookie at one point while Incognito was there and you never heard any complaints from him. There's no other way to put it, other than him being sofTTT!"

Said another: "Guys are going to be guys, if you know what I mean. I'm sure there are some instances of 'taking things too far,' but that happens everywhere. You handle it in house -- fight, handle it on the field, joke about it, etc -- and keep it moving."

The Dolphins clearly feel otherwise, if only to protect themselves in the event of a lawsuit. That aside, what fascinates me is how quickly the conversation among players and personnel people turned from Incognito's actions to those of Martin, who has not spoken publicly since the story broke last week. Again, no one defended Incognito, but they did wonder why Martin didn't "man up" and handle the situation one-on-one.

"I might get my ass kicked," one said, "but I'm going to go down swinging if that happens to me, I can tell you that."

Right or wrong, that sentiment is shared by many of the players I spoke with. Football is testosterone driven. It's a physical game and, as such, many of its participants believe that's how issues of (dis)respect should be handled when all else fails -- internally, man against man.

"Locker room culture will never be understood unless you've lived or have been around it," said a personnel man. "This is another ploy in the league's 'player safety' book. Incognito knew who to try. You never heard anything like this come from John Jerry or Mike Pouncey. Instead of being a man and confronting him, he acted like a coward and told like a kid."
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So Martin should have assaulted Incognito. He should have bashed his brains in. He should have...
Stabbedinhead.gif
 
and more...
Beneath the disgusting details of threats and taunts and racism lies an uncomfortable truth: The NFL needs Richie Incognito more than it needs Jonathan Martin.

Coaches love players like Incognito. They look at guys like Martin, known as soft-spoken and thoughtful while at Stanford, with skepticism. Does he have the killer instinct? Does he care enough? Those questions don't apply to Incognito. Coaches might not want to see him after hours, but they love him on the field. He's indispensable, a tone-setter, the guy who announces your team's presence with a crazed, through-the-whistle style that is prized at every level.

Coaches chuckle among themselves: He might be a horrible human being, but he's our horrible human being. Sociopathic behavior from players at certain positions is not only tolerated but cherished. As long as it stays out of the headlines and the police blotters -- in other words, as long as it's kept in-house -- it provides the kind of toughness you need to compete.

Yes, this is America's game...
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Texn4life said:
I told a buddy of mine this yesterday. I probably would have gotten my ass kicked but I would've fought him. Not everyone is wired the same though.
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It is easy to say behind a computer screen though. It is probably a little different when the 300 lb psycho is in the same locker room.
 
rmartin65 said:
It is easy to say behind a computer screen though. It is probably a little different when the 300 lb psycho is in the same locker room.
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Dude, I've been in a fight with an O-lineman that outweighed me by 100 pounds. I'm not talking about things I haven't done.I'm backing Martin in this. I wish I had the ability to just not be pressured into fighting. That's not me though. If someone messes with me I'm trying to kick their ass in the locker room. In the real world I'm smarter than that.
 
IDEXAN said:
Yes, the whole situation is really very silly isn't it. But I won't be at all surprised if we see a piece on the nightly national news soon suggesting there should be sensitivity training for NFL players re their interactions with both opponents and teammates. The NFL is definitely in full-blown wussification mode
and we are headed full speed towards touch football.
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I had wondered how long it would take for somebody in this thread to whiteknight a known piece of ****. Turns out it was 5 whole posts, wow.

IDEXAN said:
I'm gonna have to do this Jen, I don't want to, but I must to make my point.
I'm guessing you've never played football ? OK, well I have, both in high school and in college, though I assure my collegiate football experience was very unremarkable and the scholastic end of it not much better. But while playing in HS and college, I can't tell you how many incidents I've seen of bullying, varying degrees to be sure. And actually a couple of them were pretty flagrant, pretty nasty situations in other words. It's part of the territory, it's a very, very physical sport played by some really tough guys, certainly at the NFL level. And it's also tough mentally and psychologically because much of it is about being the most macho person in the contest, winning whichever mano-a-mano contest a player might be involved in that's always playing out on the field be it CB vs WR, OT vs edge-rusher, OC vs NT, TE vs LB, etc. In other words, a guy has to have a certain mentality or psyche along with athletic talent, or he's not got what it takes for serious football, certainly not pro ball. And seminars or sensitive training or whatever aren't gonna correct the situation, not for the bully or his victim. Best solution would be to change occupations to office work, or something, anything that's civilized because pro football isn't.
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I take the previous "wow" back and want to put it here. Wow. You would probably fit in just perfectly with these dudes --> http://www.castefootball.us/forums/forum.php
 
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