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Martin v. Incognito: [update] Wells Report released
- Thread starter Playoffs
- Start date
robroy72
Rookie
Yes, the whole situation is really very silly isn't it. But I won't be at all surprised if we see a piece on the nightly national news soon suggesting there should be sensitivity training for NFL players re their interactions with both opponents and teammates. The NFL is definitely in full-blown wussification mode
and we are headed full speed towards touch football.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Bullying isn't always about size. And it's evidently a tactic around the league to bring out the fight in a player. I believe Prince Amukamara was bullied for two seasons, but says he runs with the "in group" on the Giants now -- which begs the question, if there's an "in" group then who's not a part of the "cool kids gang" and how does that hurt/help the team?
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I heard it has something to do with a prank that went too far, but I don't know the details of it. I'd like to hear what it is all about.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Yeah, every party is being so mysterious about all this it piques my curiosity. Incognito being investigated, then saying he & Martin are cool. NFLPA saying we're not investigating, just doing an inquiry...? And Miami putting a starting OT on the non-football injury/illness list? They need all hands on deck on their O-line. Matin's own cryptic tweets. It's all very...
chicagotexan2
Easterby = Little Finger/Cal = Fredo Corleone
Did someone order a code red or did a full metal jacket blanket party? Hopefully it's not a truly serious issue.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Except it was the there way around.
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
So apparently here are the details...
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...o-nfl-investigates-claims-045206231--nfl.html
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9...efinitely-connection-jonathan-martin-incident
*********
Really surprising, and I'd think unprecidented and probably points to the heart of the matter which is that Incognito has more issues than Martin. But the fact that the 'Phins couldn't handle this situation internally is what's most surprising to me ? Damn Coach, you let this get into the media and now the league is involved.
I've got 2 remaining questions now: (1) when does somebody play the race card here, and (2) with this incident, how totally wussified has the NFL become ?
NCTexan
Veteran
Well considering he supposedly left "threatening and racially charged" messages on Martin's voice mail according to the Fox link above, I think Incognito brought race into it.
Frankly I'm very surprised Cooper is still on the Eagles team after his episode, so if a white player like Incognito is making explicit racial remarks, comments, threats, etc directly towards a black teammate, then I'm even more surprised the white guy is in south FLA this long, no matter how talented or how valuable he might be on the 'Phins team.
IlliniJen
Hall of Fame
I can't believe that after these details have come out, you STILL think this is a case of being a wuss.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Incognito went on a Twitter rampage yesterday trying to shout-down his critics...
I guess all of the sports media should expect to now be poked in the eyes and have their ankles twisted at the bottom of a pile.
Mike Golic said there's definitely something more than just using rookie's to pay for dinners/trips going on for the team to suspend Incognito. Martin is in his second year.
Richie incognito (@68INCOGNITO) November 3, 2013
I guess all of the sports media should expect to now be poked in the eyes and have their ankles twisted at the bottom of a pile.
Mike Golic said there's definitely something more than just using rookie's to pay for dinners/trips going on for the team to suspend Incognito. Martin is in his second year.
RazorOye
Ayo
Is this a case of the apple not falling far from the tree?
from deadspin:
Is Richie Incognito's Dad Blasting Jonathan Martin On Message Boards?
some of the evidence a user used to propose the possible connection:
from deadspin:
Is Richie Incognito's Dad Blasting Jonathan Martin On Message Boards?
some of the evidence a user used to propose the possible connection:
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Seems to clearly be Richie's daddy posting this stuff:
[IMGwidthsize=400]http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/195b7o509fmjqpng/original.png[/IMG]<--click for larger
This is one classy fella.
Perhaps daddy Incognito needs to be sent to the same mental ward that his son was sent to in Topeka for behavioral training? Calling out Philbin because his son committed suicide... WTF? Praying Head Coach Joe Philbin and GM Jeff Ireland die of AIDs?
[IMGwidthsize=400]http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/195b7o509fmjqpng/original.png[/IMG]<--click for larger
This is one classy fella.
I'm gonna have to do this Jen, I don't want to, but I must to make my point.
I'm guessing you've never played football ? OK, well I have, both in high school and in college, though I assure my collegiate football experience was very unremarkable and the scholastic end of it not much better. But while playing in HS and college, I can't tell you how many incidents I've seen of bullying, varying degrees to be sure. And actually a couple of them were pretty flagrant, pretty nasty situations in other words. It's part of the territory, it's a very, very physical sport played by some really tough guys, certainly at the NFL level. And it's also tough mentally and psychologically because much of it is about being the most macho person in the contest, winning whichever mano-a-mano contest a player might be involved in that's always playing out on the field be it CB vs WR, OT vs edge-rusher, OC vs NT, TE vs LB, etc. In other words, a guy has to have a certain mentality or psyche along with athletic talent, or he's not got what it takes for serious football, certainly not pro ball. And seminars or sensitive training or whatever aren't gonna correct the situation, not for the bully or his victim. Best solution would be to change occupations to office work, or something, anything that's civilized because pro football isn't.
houstonspartan
All Pro
The "I-played-football-and-you-didn't-so-I'm-right-and-you're-wrong card."
Seriously?
Most of us who have never played football know that it's brutal, and that these guys aren't sitting around having a tea party and eating cookies. This is a rough, brutal sport, and it takes a thick skin. We know that.
But, there's a line. And it appears that this Igconito guy may have crossed the line. There is a massive difference between giving rookies crazy hair cuts and making them sing songs in the cafeteria and shaking them down for $15k for vacations and $30k for meals.
Also, rookie salaries aren't what they used to be, and making them pay outrageous bills for the veterans is absurd.
We knock professional athletes for blowing all of their money, but situations like this don't help.
Also: bullying is mental. If Incognito had a crew within the locker room that ganged up on players - and if it was clear that Igcognito's crew were not to be messed with - that doesn't leave a lot of room for someone to refuse to play along.
IlliniJen
Hall of Fame
I'm sure Jonathan Martin has been hazed and gone through all the dude bro crap football players go through in high school and college, so he's used to it. Sounds like Incognito took it to a whole new level, which is NOT okay. Incognito has a bad rep in this league, and this is a league full of tough son-of-a-B dude bros who can both give and take some ****.
It's no longer about proving one's manhood and football prowess when someone makes it personal and makes threats or racial comments. That's way out of bounds. Just because football is a rough and tumble sport it doesn't mean that anyone should just suck it up and be a victim to someone with Incognito's obvious nasty streak.
Incognito is a dirt bag and Martin isn't a wuss because he broke down after what appears to be systematic abuse at Incognito's hands. I think Miami let things get too far, and there's a bit more there of veterans taking advanage of the younger players to foot huge dinner bills and what not. Just because the culture of hazing is there doesn't mean that when taken to its extremes it should still be accepted because it's just "part of the game." That's a cop out that just perpetuates poor behavior.
RazorOye
Ayo
While I appreciate the gentlemanly salutation, and I think it's mighty white of you to do so, you didn't make a point at all related to the topic that seems to be at the core of this.
And that's not Martin's 'wussiness' and the insistence on pushing topics of race anticipation and the wussification of the NFL.
Your post said you peaked in an unremarkable college career. So how in the world do you understand what would be going on in a Dolphins NFL locker room? Using yourself as the referent and then arriving at a conclusion based on such a faulty premise surely leads to a faulty conclusion, no?
Instead of going after the party that appears to be a demanding, imposing bully with a track record of less-than-stellar acts on and off the field and a history of bullying others (once bullied himself) who might also be a racist - you're going after the victim and psychoanalyzing.
To what end?
The wussification of the NFL? Preemptive marginalization of a potentially legitimate issue (racism) before we even know any details?
To compare your locker room to his and your bullying experience to his strikes me as a misstep out of the posting gates, conceptually. After that, the comparison (and righteousness) just got worse. I think basing psychoanalysis using such flimsy criteria isn't the most constructive way to go about marginalizing Martin.
The entire post just looked like an end around for some strutting, chestthumping machismo that adds nothing to the thread, in tone or content. And I think it takes some measure of courage to come out the way he has. I don't think you really understand the scope and variety of bullying - I know I don't. And I've seen all sorts of types in all sorts of contexts. I don't see how anyone can label his actions as cowardly or wussy. He had a lot to risk by bringing this to light, acting as he did. I'm not going to valorize him as a hero, but I don't think he's nearly as frail or sheepish as you do.
If this gets Incognito out of the league, renders him an untouchable - I think maybe the league is better off.
I think talking about his actions and the systems that actively/passively supported it are also worth talking about. These seem to be the bigger issues.
houstonspartan
All Pro
Frankly I'm very surprised Cooper is still on the Eagles team after his episode, so if a white player like Incognito is making explicit racial remarks, comments, threats, etc directly towards a black teammate, then I'm even more surprised the white guy is in south FLA this long, no matter how talented or how valuable he might be on the 'Phins team.
*****
That's what I already said some 2 hours earlier in this thread before your comment here about race. It is the RED LINE in the NFL for players, most especially for a white player. Incognito should have been gone a long, long time ago if he went racist on Martin or any other black member of the 'Phins.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
A shake down for money or racial attacks shouldnt be allowed no matter where you work. Best for a college flame out to avoid giving career advice to a NFL pro
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
Dread-Head
Hall of Fame
houstonspartan
All Pro
Agree.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, extortion does not have to have follow-through in order for it to be illegal. In other words, I think the mere threat of harm if a person does not comply is illegal.
So, someone saying, "If you don't put up $15k for us to travel to Las Vegas, you will regret it," would be considered illegal. The threat itself is illegal.
Do you honestly buy that about the shakedown baloney ? If it was in fact true, if we are really talking here about bribery or blackmail, then Martin should have called the Law. Right ?
Incognio has been in the league for some 10 years, and Martin is probably the umptenth younger player he's jacked around with, but just the first to succumb to the will of an intimidator like Incognito. You know bullys are predators, they look for the most vulnerable among them and when they find him they don't relent until the victim stands his ground.
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
From my own high school experience, guys like Cooper and Incognitio would get a 50-person boot party thrown for them. Bonus points if the rest of the roster tried to push a vending machine on top of them
houstonspartan
All Pro
1) Yes, I do believe it.
2) You're missing the point. Martin was AFRAID to call the law. Incognito and his crew probably had him terrified of his own freaking shadow. Why do you think Martin gave $15k for a group vacation for a trip he DIDN'T EVEN GO ON? Do you really think Martin decided, out of the goodness of his heart, to give $15k towards a vacation for people he didn't even like? You really think that? For him, in the moment, it was probably easier to pay these clowns off than to fight them, so he wrote a check.
You are blaming the victim and being dense.
jaayteetx
All Pro
Seems to clearly be Richie's daddy posting this stuff:
[IMGwidthsize=400]http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/195b7o509fmjqpng/original.png[/IMG]<--click for larger
This is one classy fella.Perhaps daddy Incognito needs to be sent to the same mental ward that his son was sent to in Topeka for behavioral training? Calling out Philbin because his son committed suicide... WTF? Praying Head Coach Joe Philbin and GM Jeff Ireland die of AIDs?
Looks like the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree...no wonder.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
toronto
Hall of Fame
Schefter tweets suggest Ingognito is a serious *********
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 1m
NFL has heard Richie Incognito's VM to Jonathan Martin. Dolphins have heard the voice mail.
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 4m
1: Richie Incognito left this VM for Jonathan Martin in April 2013: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of (expletive)...
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 3m
2. More Incognito to Martin: "I saw you on Twitter, you been training ten weeks. (I want to) (expletive) in your (expl) mouth....
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 3m
3. Incognito VM to Martin: "(I'm going to) slap your (expletive) mouth. (I'm going to) slap your real mother across the face (laughter).
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 2m
4. Incognito to Martin, all on same VM in April 2013: "(Expletive) you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."
IlliniJen
Hall of Fame
He IS standing his ground.
This ain't no school playground. This is PROFESSIONAL football, the NFL is a billion-dollar enterprise, and Martin is getting the NFL and NFLPA officials involved, as is the proper procedure to follow.
What did you want Martin to do? Beat Incognito up in the parking lot after practice? Is that how I should deal with people who irritate me at work? Push away from my desk, rouse them out of their office and say "after work, in the parking lot, come at me bro!"?
PROFESSIONAL. FOOTBALL. LEAGUE.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
He left the team ! He freaking physically left Miami, left South FLA, left the
entire state of FLA according to reports. That is not standing one's ground.
toronto
Hall of Fame
Welcome to the thread Canada, but we've already covered race, just take a couple minutes to review the earlier posts if you would.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Exactly.
*********************
According to CBS Sports' Jason La Canfora, Incognito sent Martin a number of threatening text messages and voice mails, one of which referred to Martin as a "half-n*gg*r."
...
And here's some of what Incognito sent to Martin, as transcribed by Adam Schefter:
Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) November 4, 2013
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
the ones where you sound like a fool? Yeah we are up to speed already
fwiw all those vm werent all about race
houstonspartan
All Pro
Shaking my head.
He is standing his ground. He is saying enough, and he is getting this all out in the open. You wanted Martin to punch Ignognito in the locker room. Again: Incognito probably has an army of players he controls. You can't fight that.
The good news here is that Martin will win and Incognito will lose. Take a read of the voice mails, when you get a chance...
When I read so much stupid in a thread I swear it makes my head hurt. This is a classic case of a dumb, racist prick thinking he can pick on the weak dude in the group and get away with it. This type of crap doesn't go on in locker rooms. No white player would resort to these tactics knowing they'll be crucified in the locker room. He saw a guy who he could intimidate and took advantage of it. I've been in locker rooms all my life and most of the hazing is all in fun. The stuff coming out here has nothing to do with that. Incognito doesn't deserve to wear an NFL uniform for many reasons. This is just the tip of the iceberg for me.