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Mariota
- Thread starter badboy
- Start date
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
It's folly to declare anyone that good. But system QB was the biggest knock on him and they share similar reports on dedication to the game and being quick studies. The system label worries me far more when we're talking about rocket scientists like VY or slackers like Manziel. Or look at Wilson v. Kaep.
And we again have what is supposed to be one of the QB gurus. He wouldn't get handed over to Chris Palmer. Mallett/Hoyer gives us time to not need to start him immediately.
I'm just surprised there's opposition to a pipe dream manifesting.
Maybe... if he gets to sit and learn, as Rodgers did, for three years.
This is the type of thing I expect from O'Brien with Mallett and Savage, and to a lesser extent (because he has more experience) Hoyer. Maybe it IS happening under O'Brien but admittedly, it's harder to tell with O'Brien than it was with Kubiak because O'Brien is, it seems, naturally tight-lipped.
watched his pro day
wouldn't take him at 51 either.
weak arm and air balled it most of the time.
Wouldn't surprise me if we take Petty or Hundley, if not at 16, then at 51.
TexansFTW
Veteran
It would surprise me. We have Mallett and Hoyer under contract.
I don't envision the Texans going into camp with 4 QBs under REAL contracts. I imagine if they draft a QB it would have to be someone they can say with confidence, "OK, let's dump Tom Savage for this guy".
I'm sure Mariota could make them say that at #16, but that's not realistic. At #16 if we reach on Hundley with all the holes on this team I think Rick Smith should be fired that night before he could screw up the 2nd round.
I think if they do draft a QB it will be someone really big with a huge arm that they believe maybe they can stash on a practice squad. Someone like Brandon Bridge or just a camp body with potential upside like Ryan Williams.
EDIT: More I think about it AKA more I read prospect rankings, the more I don't even believe that Bridge could be safely stashed on a practice squad.
Personally, I think the "so many holes" on this team is a bit overstated. We were a good QB away from making some noise last year & the year before that.
All teams have holes, most have more than we do.
I'm not pushing for us to take a QB at all in this draft, I just wouldn't be surprised if we do.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I'll be shocked other than a Mariota falls to #16 scenario which would also be shocking. You're wasting something to bring in a 4th QB because they aren't going to carry 4 into the season.
Not including practice squad, but QBs who can be predicted to go on the practice squad are just squandered picks.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Rumor is #12 and #19 and Browns 1st next year to move to #2 with Tennessee. If I'm Tennessee I take that. Would give them (2) 1st round picks this year and next year.
Of course, San Diego could complicate things and offer Rivers and #17 plus some additional picks.
Of course, San Diego could complicate things and offer Rivers and #17 plus some additional picks.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
If you could get him to speak.
One of the guys covering Gruden's QB camp said the periods of silence got uncomfortable. Man of very few words.
how so?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
If I recall Green Bay was pretty stacked when they took Rodgers .. didnt have alot of needs so they could afford to gamble.
Not the case with Houston .. even if he slides Im not sure Bob and Co take him.
Common sense makes me believe that he's gone top 5 too like alot of yall have said
Not the case with Houston .. even if he slides Im not sure Bob and Co take him.
Common sense makes me believe that he's gone top 5 too like alot of yall have said
What has stood between the Texans and a Super Bowl ever since the Texans were born? A franchise QB. We had the number 1 pick in the draft 3 times in 12 years and still do not have a great QB. However, we do have lots of rushing LB'ers that didn't exactly work out. Oh boy, I bet we take another in the first round this year!
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
So who were these great franchise QBs we were supposed to draft at #1 when we had the #1 pick?
Joey Harrington? Vince Young? Matt Leinart? Jay Cutler?
You think we would have won a SB last year with Bortles, Manziel, or Bridgewater?
We DID draft a QB with one of those #1 picks. How did that turn out?
How many "franchise" QBs have come out since 2002?
Carson Palmer
Phillip Rivers
Ben Roethlisberger
Aaron Rodgers
Andrew Luck
Those are the only guys I'd consider "franchise" QBs that we didn't get, but we didn't have a shot at most of them, or in the case of Palmer, it just didn't make sense.
Matthew Stafford
Sam Bradford
Kevin Kolb
Chad Henne
These guys, I'd have loved to have seen us get, I think they could have been successful on the teams we've built since 2006. But, since they haven't set the NFL on fire, I'm not going to be too hard on the Texans for not getting them (& we had no shot at Stafford or Bradford).
Then there's Matt Ryan & Joe Flacco, I can see how some people would have liked either of those two... but overall, the college game has not been producing "franchise" QBs like it used to, or at least they're not churning them out every year.
OK, so Rivers was a 4th pick in 2004 and we did nothing to get him. Roethlisberger was still available when we passed him up and drafted a CB in 2004. Luck was the first pick in 2012 but instead of doing what we needed to do to get him, we picked up Whitney Mercilus with the 26th pick.
We passed on Rodgers in 2005 and took a DT at 16, while Rodgers went to GB at 24.
Do you see a pattern here, sort of a death wish?
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Yes. I see a pattern. YOU THINK YOU CAN GET ANYONE YOU WANT!
Yeah. I think we could have gotten at least a couple of franchise QB's if we had wanted to. This year is another challenge.
When one of my sons was in college, they had QB troubles. My suggestion was to recruit 10 of them and let them sort themselves out.
Draft a top round QB first! If he doesn't work out, what have you lost, another wasted OLB pick?
revan
Waterboy
I guess to some its ok to gamble a first round pick on an OLB/DE rather than on a QB.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I see a total lack of contact with reality.
In 2004, no one considered QB to be our main problem. If we'd drafted Rivers or Roethlisberger, it wouldn't have made a difference because with the teams we were fielding, they wouldn't have turned into Rivers or Roethliserger.
In 2012, if you think we could have moved up from 26 to #1 overall to get Luck... then I don't even know what to tell you. That's just delusional. There was no way the Colts were going to trade away the #1 pick that year. No freaking way. We could have offered them our entire draft for the next 2-3 years and they still wouldn't have made that trade. That's just crazy-talk.
And in the 2005 draft, we were coming off our 7-9 season and expectations were high with what we had.
It's really easy to look back and say, "Well, if we would have made this move here and that move there, we could have fielded a team with all-pro players at every position" but it's just fatally unrealistic.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Texans could have selected Blake Bortles #1 overall last year & been done with it.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Hmm, agree with the conclusion but not how you get there.
Agree this was too early especially given the contracts back then. But I think Big Ben and Rivers would have succeeded here as well. And the ground swell of Carr is a bust had picked up steam.
Agreed that was never going to happen.
This is where we whiffed hard and I think your memory is off. Carr was 3 full seasons in and 2005 was the last year of his contract without the Texans paying $8 mil to keep him in 2006. He wasn't developing as a QB, the bust debate was swinging and Capers had lost faith taking the ball away in his game planning midway through 2004. The Texans knew something dramatic had to change with Palmer retooling Carr/the offense in the 2005 offseason and making it to game 2 before getting canned.
Yes that is but saying we could have gotten a QB is not. Also, we had the choice of any QB in 2006 and 2014. And by the Big Ben logic above we don't know how VY, etc. would have turned out if they came to a Kubiak coached team instead of for example a hostile didn't want him Fisher led team.
Back in 2004 the Chargers wanted Eli but pre-draft he said he wouldn't sign with them. So the Giants and the Chargers worked out a deal to swap QBs on draft day meaning the Chargers didn't actually draft Rivers, the Giants did.
The Colts flat out told everyone they were not taking any offers for the Luck pick. Period. Peyton was gone and Luck was the best looking college QB that had come out in recent memory. They weren't giving up Luck and made that clear to the whole league.
In 2005 we'd had two years of Carr and he seemed to be improving. Of course, who knew that would be the year the roof caved in. Say we had drafted Big Ben. What would he have done behind the sad O-line we had in '05 beside get killed. We didn't have the Steeler defense to make up for his mistakes or running game for him to lean on like he did in Pittsburgh. He'd have been just as sorry and beat up as Carr.
toronto
Hall of Fame
Just to throw cold water on trade downs...
Find me the last draft where the Titans traded up or down in the first round. The only time I can recall a real outside the box moment was when they traded their first for Kevin Carter.
They have no balls, and I suspect they will take one of the two QBs simply because it's the most sensible thing (to them) to do, even if they were offered a ransom like Clevelands 2 firsts and next years 1st.
Find me the last draft where the Titans traded up or down in the first round. The only time I can recall a real outside the box moment was when they traded their first for Kevin Carter.
They have no balls, and I suspect they will take one of the two QBs simply because it's the most sensible thing (to them) to do, even if they were offered a ransom like Clevelands 2 firsts and next years 1st.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Carr had 3 years and mid-way through 2004 he basically got on the field benched after the Indy game - 33 apg @ 8.2 ypa to 25 apg @ 6.6 ypa.
And I don't buy for a minute Big Ben would have come in and been just like Carr. The QB makes a difference including to the OL. Going from Carr to the infinitely less mobile Schaub we went from 43 sacks to 22 and the passing attack went from 27th yds/28th points to 11th yds/12th points.
Good point.
But...
My point was that Big Ben didn't set the world on fire, early on, with his QB-ing skills. He rode a strong team and grew into the QB he has become.
And Kubiak wasn't here to teach him in 2005. The improvement in O-line from 2006 to 2007 was a result of Schaub going all in with respect to learning Kubiak's system where Carr did not.
I've often wondered what Carr would have been had Kubiak gotten him very early on instead of after he'd been scarred.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I don't think I said Big Ben would have come in and been just like Carr.
I said Big Ben would have come in and NOT been the Big Ben he was in Pittsburgh. Just as Rivers would have come in and NOT been the Rivers he was in San Diego.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I'm certainly not saying we'd have had the same success as his team was clearly better. But I think our team would have been substantially better with better QB play.
Not sure how we got onto Big Ben - I said 2004 was too soon. But 2005 was Rogers.
But on Big Ben, he didn't carry those teams but he played damn well in what he was asked to do. First 2 seasons were both 98+ QB rating and in his sophomore season he led the league in TD%, ypa, aypa and ypc.
I'm sure he would have been substantially better and yet I think still mediocre. He just wasn't dedicated and didn't play smart and that was on him not the OL, coaches, etc. For the love of god he couldn't learn not to run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage.
The pattern we should be seeing is that there are more drafts without a franchise QB than there are with a franchise QB.
The thing about Ben in the early years, was that a play wasn't over once it broke down. He could extend plays & make things happen. He did it as a rookie, a sophomore... every year, it's his thing.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Poach Manziel from the Browns what? TexansTalk explodes!
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I guess it depends what you mean by same. Of course the stat lines would be different. But I think both would have still been top third of the league QBs - guys good enough QB wouldn't have been an issue since then.
Yeah, but man we have to do something! The probable reason why I'm not a GM is that if I were Rick, I would keep taking a QB with my first pick in every draft till I found that guy. That's what we haven't been doing---that and not going to the SB.
bah007
Hall of Fame
And if you did it this way then by the time you found your guy it could be Tom Brady and it wouldn't matter, because you've wasted so much draft capital over the years that he won't any anybody to block for him or throw to.
By the time you've surrounded him with any talent at all he's likely already gone.
Similar to what the Titans, Browns, & Jags... even the Jets & Bills have been doing. They taken more 1st round QBs than we have in the last 12 years & look what it's got them.
Nah, we're not going to the Super Bowl, but we're not stinking up the NFL either. When I watch the Texans play anyone other than New England, GreenBay, & Philly... there's a chance we'll win the game. As a season ticket holder, chances are good that we'll win more than half of the regular season home games that I'll attend. As a fan, we'll win roughly half the games televised every week.
& when we do find that third round stub (Wilson) or 6th round miracle (Brady) or even an undrafted anomaly (Romo) he'll look better than the 1st round QBs those teams have taken (Quin, Manziel, Weden, Locker, Gabbert, Manuel, Geno, Sanchez)
I might say that having 3 first picks out of 12 years is pretty much stinking up the NFL.
One of those 1-1 picks is because we were an expansion team; surely you aren't counting that one...?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Thank you. Hate that people who make that argument include 2002.
We're also on our 14th draft now.
I wonder how many top 5 picks the Jags, Browns, & Bills have had in that same tome period.
Yep, my bad. Thanks for the correction.
However, if our first draft was 2002, why were the players wearing "10 year" badges in 2012? Wouldn't the 2012 season have been our 11th? Or am I remembering the badges incorrectly?
As for how many teams have had the first draft pick in all the drafts since the 2002 year, no other team has had multiple 1/1 picks. The Texans have had 3, if you want to include 2002, two if you don't. The other teams were Chiefs, Fisher 2013; Colts, Luck 2012; Panthers, Newton 2011; Rams, Bradford 2010; Lions, Stafford 2009; Dolphins, Long, 2008; Raiders, Russell 2007, Texans MW 2006; 49'ers, Smith 2005; Chargers, Manning/Rivers 2004; Bengals, Palmer 2003; and Texans again Carr, 2002. And of course the Texans again in 2014 where they picked Clowney.
Call it what you want.
Every team has bad stretches. In the mid-70s the Cowboys picked 1-1 (1974), 1-2 (1975), and 1-2 (1976). Then they had another stretch where they picked at 1-1 in 1989 and 1991. I won't say who they got with those picks because it'll just piss you off (think triplets
).
Blake
MMQB
Im pretty sure we traded with them to acquire Jason Babin in the first round of the 2004 draft.