beerlover
Hall of Fame
Texans could draft Billy Winn in the first round for that & with the savings give Arian the contract extension he richly deserves.
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Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million
- Thread starter gafftop
- Start date
Texans could draft Billy Winn in the first round for that & with the savings give Arian the contract extension he richly deserves.
Jackie Chiles
Veteran
What is the deadline to be under the cap for next season?
Brandon420tx
Flounder
Its some point in the Preseason, don't remember what
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Mario is an asset it's just a matter of deciding how much . I'd think he's much more than Billy Winn .
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Cap expands next year doesn't it? So there's some extra wiggle room right there to start.
Jackie Chiles
Veteran
True but I think it only gets about 3m higher next year. Year after that will see a much more significant bump from renegotiated TV deal if I recall correctly. Still, I don't see how it will be a problem for Rick to get a little creative during this process and make it work one way or another.
I think you're right. And what many seem to forget is that re-signing Mario to a new contract dramatically reduces his cap hit from 2011 to 2012. Not as dramatically as letting him walk. But, we should know that McNair won't do that.
At the start of the league's new year, just before free agency.
Jackie Chiles
Veteran
That certainly makes it tough.
I just can't envision a scenario where we let Mario walk. Bob wants him, Wade wants him, Gary wants him, and I believe Mario wants to be here. His production and potential in this system gives him leverage, his injuries and the team's success give the team leverage. They can come to an understanding. There is a fair deal to be made for both sides.
I agree. Bottom line, you keep your good players because you don't know if you're getting another one. This team is built (now) to win on a suffocating defense and a dominating running game. With a healthy Mario, we could be looking at a Ravens (circa Y2K) type defense.
PapaL
Loose Screw
I can totally appreciate that but last I looked his franchise tag is something insane like $22 million...that's a lot of money for a "any player. Can't deny he causes match up problems and makes others better simply by drawing coverage but how much is that worth?
Wouldn't Julius Peppers be a comparable matchup? He signed a six-year contract worth $91.5 million, with $42 million guaranteed in the first three years in Chicago. Is that something we could/would do?
EVOLVIST
Kid A
Okay, then it's going to take a lot wiser head than mine to come up with a way to keep Mario Williams, reward Arian Foster and keep Chris Myers.
In addition, you have to get a legit #2 WR. You have to. There's no other way around it, when even most of the suckiest teams have a better WR corps than the Texans. We are one offensive weapon away from making a run at the whole thing, in my opinion.
Because with all that money going to Williams, Foster and Myers, it doesn't look probable that we'll make a big splash in free agency, a la Robert Meachem, Mario Manningham, et al...
Otherwise, we are banking on the draft alone to get a quality WR. The best will be gone by the time we pick....unless we sell the farm by moving up and getting Blackmon. He's the only sure fire future Andre Johnson.
So, can someone tell me how the Texans are going to hit all these beats?
In addition, you have to get a legit #2 WR. You have to. There's no other way around it, when even most of the suckiest teams have a better WR corps than the Texans. We are one offensive weapon away from making a run at the whole thing, in my opinion.
Because with all that money going to Williams, Foster and Myers, it doesn't look probable that we'll make a big splash in free agency, a la Robert Meachem, Mario Manningham, et al...
Otherwise, we are banking on the draft alone to get a quality WR. The best will be gone by the time we pick....unless we sell the farm by moving up and getting Blackmon. He's the only sure fire future Andre Johnson.
So, can someone tell me how the Texans are going to hit all these beats?
The tag number is too high. It would cripple the other necessary moves the organization has to make. Re-signing Mario prior to free agency is the most cost effective option.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
Not if you get a deal in place to trade him immediately
Myers will get a fair contract, but it won't be a cap killer. Not an issue, really.
Texan4Ever
All Pro
I hate doing this to Mario but I would shop him around and see if we can get some quality players to fill our needs and or draft picks. No one can deny that he is an established pass-rusher and despite being injured, he's still worth a gamble for teams needing a pass-rusher.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
I think the point is, coupled with the other 2, signing anyone to a good long term deal will be VERY hard to do, Mario will expect a HUGE pay day and crippling our cap for one guy, who btw, isn't a necessity on our team, is foolish. Would you lose Mario if it meant signing another legit corner and a wideout? Thats the decision that it comes to
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
What if Wade wants Mario .
Even under the old CBA, this did not happen that often (I know Jared Allen) and I was reading somewhere that something in the new rules it is even less likely. Will post if I can put my hands on it.
Mario's cap number was $14 million this season. Did it cripple the cap and keep the Texans from signing Joseph and Manning? And if/when Mario re-signs, it will be less than his 2011 cap number.
You don't want Mario re-signed and think he's unnecessary. OK. But at least get your facts straight if you are going to comment on the cap.
You do realize that we ended the season with less than a million to spare on the cap?
Which refutes the "McNair is cheap" argument. Really, the team should spend to the cap every year to ensure the best product. It's not like ticket holders will get reimbursed for the difference.
Scooter
Funky
you're exactly right. if mario wants peppers' money to be the "IT" guy as a defensive end banking on linebacker sacks ... we work a sign and trade or franchise and trade. if he wants top 5ish linebacker money in a deal structured to help the texans, we sign him long term. it's always about money, until championships come into play ... and mario has a chance to get both with the texans if he doesnt focus only on a payday.
in no way do we franchise mario unless we are dealing him. we can cut his impact on next year's cap by almost half and free up space with a long term deal. there are plenty of bad and middling teams willing to offer him a "isht-ton" of money to LDE for them, and he may take it. we're willing to offer him many tens of millions to play the "IT" man on wade's career defining 3-4 on a team that is over the hump and superbowl bound. it's really his decision at this point.
I've never been in the "McNair's cheap" camp. I would love to keep MW, but only if it's cap friendly, but I just don't see that as realistic. If we could resign MW at less than $10 mil a year, I say go for it. I'm more worried about being able to sign multiple FA's, who make our team what it is, than signing 1 who is often injured.
Check out this list and tell me MW has outperformed players making much less than him. This is where the old CBA made top 10 rookie contracts such a burden on teams.
McNair has never been cheap. In fact, overall he has spent poorly versus not enough over his tenure. McNair is cheap equals the Texans didn't sign the name brand guys that I thought they should.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
I'm 90% sure there are rules preventing that in the new CBA now. If you franchise someone your stuck paying the money. I think the players pushed for it because they felt owners had too much power over players when using the Tag
Williams contract won't average less than $10 million/season, but his 2012 (and probably 2013) cap number will be considerably less. At some point, the Texans would have to re-evaluate Williams contract. Which is how practically all of the top contracts are handled. 2012 would not be an issue. And the Texans should be concerned about winning a championship in 2012.
What do you consider "considerably less"? MW made $13.8 mil this year. $10 mil or less would be "considerably less" to me.
TdotTexas2Step
Rookie
The pass rush on our team is elite and really doesn't "need" Mario.
But a part of me just would love to somehow retain Mario for a reasonable price, if only to see how insane it would be to have a rotation of Williams, Barwin, and Reed rushing from the outside. Consistent crazy pressure that would NEVER let up.
But a part of me just would love to somehow retain Mario for a reasonable price, if only to see how insane it would be to have a rotation of Williams, Barwin, and Reed rushing from the outside. Consistent crazy pressure that would NEVER let up.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
We should give up Lucky, this is the best chance for Mario to be gone, and those people that want him out know this. Alot of people also don't realize that the first season in these football contracts are usually the lowest, unless the contract is specifically front loaded.
Tagging and trading is not going to happen. Sorry to everyone that wants to go that route.
That means the people that want him gone can only hope he leaves in FA. Right now I believe its a 4/5 chance he's resigns with the Texans. So a 20% chance he walks in free agency. It will only happen if he wants so much money that the Texans won't be able to make the deal and sign our high priority Free Agents. In order for that to happen he'd have to ask for alot. Like a staggering amount.
His cap hit next season will likely be 7-9Million, and escalate each season there after
Tagging and trading is not going to happen. Sorry to everyone that wants to go that route.
That means the people that want him gone can only hope he leaves in FA. Right now I believe its a 4/5 chance he's resigns with the Texans. So a 20% chance he walks in free agency. It will only happen if he wants so much money that the Texans won't be able to make the deal and sign our high priority Free Agents. In order for that to happen he'd have to ask for alot. Like a staggering amount.
His cap hit next season will likely be 7-9Million, and escalate each season there after
Jackie Chiles
Veteran
We were definitely elite in the pass rush department but this defense can improve on the 44 sacks we got over the course of the regular season. I really believe Mario could help push that total north of 50. Outside of great quarterback play the pass rush is as important as it gets.
I also did not understand how tag and trade would work. If you don't tag can't Mario just go out and get the best offer he can get from anyone? I have a feeling someone is going to offer him stupid money that we will not match. Why would he sign before he can test the open market? This is something I have never understood.
Sorry I never wanted him to leave in FA this year I wanted to trade him last year when we could have gotten something for him. What is occurring now was inevitable. I will be very interested in how all this turns out.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Texans will get some time to negotiate with him before he hits the market. They could come to a mutually acceptable agreement or he could decline and hit the open market and get ridiculous offers. I have a feeling he would be open to staying in Houston and not hitting the market at all though.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
I'm pretty sure you can trade them once they've signed the franchise tender, but what you can't do is franchise them, and trade those franchise rights to another team if the tender offer hasn't been signed by the player.
This is straight out of Article 10 of the current CBA (Page 49 if you have a copy)
There is no other discussion of transfer, assignment or trade in Article 10 - which for the record is titled "Franchise and Transition Players".
So if you franchise someone and can't get them to sign the tender (ala Dunta Robinson), you can't trade their rights - you can however rescind the franchise tag and immediately make the player an UFA. Philly did this with Akers last off-season, and I believe Seattle has done it in the past also.
Finally, Section 2 (k) of Article 10 maintains that if a team and a franchised player don't reach a long term agreement by July 15th, then no contract longer than one year may be signed before the final game of the upcoming regular season. If this applies to a team trading for the player (and I'm not sure whether it does or not), then it would effectively render any franchised player untradable after that date - even if they'd signed the tender.
burro
probably drunk
I'm much too lazy (and drunk) to go back and see if this has been mentioned already, but has anyone entertained the idea of moving Mario to NT? He certainly has the size and strength to be a fit, plus he is a pretty good bull rusher. I think he could be an improvement over Cody who is the closest thing we have to a weak link in the front 7.
Well, you did say drunk so I will give you a pass, but he does not have the true body for it. He actually is not big (thick) enough for that and is built more like an overgrown TE than more bottom heavy inside guys.
PapaL
Loose Screw
To answer your last question, they don't. No team has even ever addressed all it's needs in an offseason. You sign who you can, draft who you can, and hope like hell it works out. There is no sure fire anything in this league. Remember when AJ first came out and was dropping balls in practice? Some said he had no hands and wasn't WR enough because he barely spoke. Now look at him.
burro
probably drunk
You have a point, but I have a hard time seeing a player who is 6-6 and 283 pounds being too small for NT, especially when their MO is bull rushing. Cody, for example is 6-4 and 301. Whats to say Mario couldn't put on about 15 pounds and play NT? If we're going to keep him, I think it would be worth an experiment - but then again, Wade Phillips is the defensive genius, not I.
PapaL
Loose Screw
This has been THE best exchange on this board today. Honesty and a pass.
EVOLVIST
Kid A
You're right. And that's why about half of my questions were mostly rhetorical.
A team has to base where they're going in the future on the known quantities first, before they bank on something as unknown as the draft (as a big example).
Known Quantity #1 - Without Mario Williams, and even if Conner Barwin, JJ Watt, Brooks Reed, Antonio Smith and Shaun Cody don't improve their game, they still supplied a pass rush for our team that kicked all kinds of ass. It is known that this defense thrived without Mario Williams.
Known Quantity #2 - Arian Foster is a special player. He's not just simply one of hundreds of halfback that you can plug into the system and live off of that. You have to pay him.
Known Quantity #3 - Don't bank on a young WR draftee coming in being a legit #2. You have to go with what's known, a la Robert Meachem, Mario Mannignham - someone who is a proven commodity, who is not getting their fair due on another team. You can only make a deal like that fly with freed up money.
Known Quantity #4 - Keep your offensive line together.
After that, once you've tackled the knowns, then you go into the draft taking your chances with the unknowns. If you let Mario walk, then hey, we need depth at a 3-4 OLB, well, there's Courtney Upshaw in Round #1. Rounds #2-#3 OL/WR/CB... hey take your pick...Lestar Jean is on our roster, as well...and I'm saying that Lestar is already better than Jacoby Jones.
In other words, the possibilities are endless after you take care of the knowns. We're finally lucky be in that position.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I'm pretty sure Mario is 6-8.
burro
probably drunk
Wade has used non-traditional NTs before, so I will also defer to him, but taking a guy you thought was an OLB 1 year and then moving him an even more ackward position for his type seems like a waste of resources. There is not just a down-in, down-out NT with Mario's height and relative lack of bulk. The taller NTs in the league are generally 320 plus.
I'm a fan... I'd pay him (some) but, it's the system. You can find a guy to replace Chris Myers, if you know where to look & Kubiak knows where to look.
If Chris proved to be a team leader with the heart of a champion, then yeah, do whatever it takes to keep him. But we won't know if Chris is that guy or not, the locker room would, but we wouldn't.
The only thing I ask, in all this Mario talk, is that we don't make it a "Mario or playertobenamed" scenario. We don't know what the cap is going to be & we don't know how "creative" Rick Smith can get with the numbers.
We didn't have the money to sign Joseph & Manning. But we did.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
If the Eagles can go to town like they did last offseason and still be under cap, we'll be fine retaining our players
I'm sure GreenBAy was thinking something similar when they had the #2 defense last year..... where'd that go?
Barwin had a promising rookie season, what happened his sophomore season?
Demeco was a beast..... he missed 10 games last year?
If Mario wants to be here next year, we sign him. Period. Everything he's done, he's done without a secondary & without playmakers beside him.
Imagine double digit sacks from Barwin & Mario, 5+ from Antonio, JJ, Reed.... a couple from Jamison, Mitchell, Cody, Nading...
Look guys the best move is to do a sign and trade with a team in the NFC that needs a pass rusher like Carolina, Tampa Bay, Seattle, Detroit, Atlanta, St. Louis etc. We can't afford a 21 Million Dollar a year contract for a guy who was hurt and a project as an OLB in the first place. Let's move on and get a player and late first or early 2nd round & 4th round pick and keep it moving. We need the cap space to resign Arian Foster, Chris Myers & Neil Rackers and possible incoming Free Agents.