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Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million

leebigeztx said:
Been saying the same thing for a minute,just as thunder has been saying also. 42m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs is 14m per yr. That can be 6yrs 90m with 42m g in 1st 3yrs.

7m sal in each of the 1st 3yrs, 7m roster bonus in the 1st 3yrs. That contract is paid for now. That leaves 48m unguaranteed over the next 3 yrs. Most teams put that in salary and performance bonus to validtae the cntract. So here it is for the millionth time.

4th yr-12m sal 2m roster ,500k for probowl,500k for leading sacks,500k for 80% snaps,500k for 1st team all pro

That can be done for the the next 2 yrs. If the need salary relief and he's playing well after yr 3, they can move his salary to signing bonus and stretch it out. If he sux or is constantly hurt after 1st 3 yrs, then they could cut him and owe $0. Again, I want to repeat to those that don't know,if mario doesn't play well,injured,old,sorry ass after yr 3,the texans could cut him and owe $0 because of his guaranteed 1st 3 yrs. Just like adrian petereson deal with vikings. If this injury is serious and he's not the same, they can cut him after yr 3 and owe $0. That's the huge benefit of guaranteed 1st 3 yrs vs signing bonus.
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The salary cap hit is prohibitive in your scenario... When the cap is at its smallest, this year, he would count $14 million against it. That's about 11-12% of the entire cap. Way too much!
 
dalemurphy said:
The salary cap hit is prohibitive in your scenario... When the cap is at its smallest, this year, he would count $14 million against it. That's about 11-12% of the entire cap. Way too much!
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I'm really trying to understand your point in this whole scenerio. Why are u so dumfounded about how much a high end pass rusher cost? Not to mention that you clearly don't understand by mario doing a deal, they get cap room. He had a cap charge of about 17m and some change. If they get that deal down to 14m,they gain 4m to go with the 8m they have .Ok, let me ask this simple question, barwin had a good year. Let's say he puts up 17 sacks next yr and 16 sacks the next yr, how much do u think he's going to cost? He's going cost more than the money we're talking about with mario right. So, vs paying people,you think wade can just scheme rush? Look at the guy opposite ware, spencer. He had a breakout of 8 sacks and now he's back to average. As a result, cowboys can't get consistent pressure on the qb. Or maybe your disdain and hatred for mario just clouds your thinking.
 
leebigeztx said:
I'm really trying to understand your point in this whole scenerio. Why are u so dumfounded about how much a high end pass rusher cost? Not to mention that you clearly don't understand by mario doing a deal, they get cap room. He had a cap charge of about 17m and some change. If they get that deal down to 14m,they gain 4m to go with the 8m they have .Ok, let me ask this simple question, barwin had a good year. Let's say he puts up 17 sacks next yr and 16 sacks the next yr, how much do u think he's going to cost? He's going cost more than the money we're talking about with mario right. So, vs paying people,you think wade can just scheme rush? Look at the guy opposite ware, spencer. He had a breakout of 8 sacks and now he's back to average. As a result, cowboys can't get consistent pressure on the qb. Or maybe your disdain and hatred for mario just clouds your thinking.
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Looking at your Cowboys example: if D. Ware spent the final season of his contract on IR, and in that season the Cowboys defense was one of the two best in the NFL... and, if Spencer had 12 sacks playing Mario's position and three other players had at least 6 (and if most of that defense was still working off their rookie contracts), I would be focused on keep that group intact rather than paying Ware an obscene amount of money.

The Texans were a great defense without Mario. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that. Therefore, since Mario is not essential to the success of the defense (as those 14 games proved last season), I would concentrate on the group that did dominate- on their retention and on supplementing the depth and talent throughout the team... rather than giving 1/9 of the entire cap to a guy that has finished the past two seasons on I.R.

Furthermore, I would use part of the money not spent on Mario to re-sign many of those guys scheduled to become free agents in 2013, of which Barwin is one. I could sign Barwin to a long term and relatively low risk deal right now and not have to face the scenario you described until 2017 or 2018. I'd do the same with Duane Brown, Glover Quin, Brice McCain. Since they are all under small, rookie contracts, offering them a significant and immediate pay raise in the 2012 season that is tied to a long term deal allows the team to save money down the road on these guys.

For instance, let's look at Barwin:

Barwin's 2012 salary is less than $1 million. Instead of waiting for next year and giving him, hypothetically, a 5year and $25 million deal... We could offer him an immediate $8 million signing bonus and a six year deal worth the same $25 million. Barwin would like it because he would immediately be given $8 million more in a year where he didn't expect or have any leverage to get. And, the Texans get him on a discount for the subsequent years... Win, Win.
 
leebigeztx said:
I'm really trying to understand your point in this whole scenerio. Why are u so dumfounded about how much a high end pass rusher cost? Not to mention that you clearly don't understand by mario doing a deal, they get cap room. He had a cap charge of about 17m and some change. If they get that deal down to 14m,they gain 4m to go with the 8m they have .Ok, let me ask this simple question, barwin had a good year. Let's say he puts up 17 sacks next yr and 16 sacks the next yr, how much do u think he's going to cost? He's going cost more than the money we're talking about with mario right. So, vs paying people,you think wade can just scheme rush? Look at the guy opposite ware, spencer. He had a breakout of 8 sacks and now he's back to average. As a result, cowboys can't get consistent pressure on the qb. Or maybe your disdain and hatred for mario just clouds your thinking.
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:clap::clap:
 
leebigeztx said:
I'm really trying to understand your point in this whole scenerio..
Click to expand...


There's nothing confusing about it.

1. I believe more in a team concept and less in star players. That's it. I would be much less apt to give huge contracts to "stars" than you.

2. The second point is that I think many have overrated Mario Williams effect in games and his reliability.


I'm fine with people disagreeing with either point, or both. I'm just not sure why it offends people or confuses them.
 
dalemurphy said:
Looking at your Cowboys example: if D. Ware spent the final season of his contract on IR, and in that season the Cowboys defense was one of the two best in the NFL... and, if Spencer had 12 sacks playing Mario's position and three other players had at least 6 (and if most of that defense was still working off their rookie contracts), I would be focused on keep that group intact rather than paying Ware an obscene amount of money.

The Texans were a great defense without Mario. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that. Therefore, since Mario is not essential to the success of the defense (as those 14 games proved last season), I would concentrate on the group that did dominate- on their retention and on supplementing the depth and talent throughout the team... rather than giving 1/9 of the entire cap to a guy that has finished the past two seasons on I.R.

Furthermore, I would use part of the money not spent on Mario to re-sign many of those guys scheduled to become free agents in 2013, of which Barwin is one. I could sign Barwin to a long term and relatively low risk deal right now and not have to face the scenario you described until 2017 or 2018. I'd do the same with Duane Brown, Glover Quin, Brice McCain. Since they are all under small, rookie contracts, offering them a significant and immediate pay raise in the 2012 season that is tied to a long term deal allows the team to save money down the road on these guys.

For instance, let's look at Barwin:

Barwin's 2012 salary is less than $1 million. Instead of waiting for next year and giving him, hypothetically, a 5year and $25 million deal... We could offer him an immediate $8 million signing bonus and a six year deal worth the same $25 million. Barwin would like it because he would immediately be given $8 million more in a year where he didn't expect or have any leverage to get. And, the Texans get him on a discount for the subsequent years... Win, Win.
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Great post :clap:
 
dalemurphy said:
Looking at your Cowboys example: if D. Ware spent the final season of his contract on IR, and in that season the Cowboys defense was one of the two best in the NFL... and, if Spencer had 12 sacks playing Mario's position and three other players had at least 6 (and if most of that defense was still working off their rookie contracts), I would be focused on keep that group intact rather than paying Ware an obscene amount of money.

The Texans were a great defense without Mario. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that. Therefore, since Mario is not essential to the success of the defense (as those 14 games proved last season), I would concentrate on the group that did dominate- on their retention and on supplementing the depth and talent throughout the team... rather than giving 1/9 of the entire cap to a guy that has finished the past two seasons on I.R.

Furthermore, I would use part of the money not spent on Mario to re-sign many of those guys scheduled to become free agents in 2013, of which Barwin is one. I could sign Barwin to a long term and relatively low risk deal right now and not have to face the scenario you described until 2017 or 2018. I'd do the same with Duane Brown, Glover Quin, Brice McCain. Since they are all under small, rookie contracts, offering them a significant and immediate pay raise in the 2012 season that is tied to a long term deal allows the team to save money down the road on these guys.

For instance, let's look at Barwin:

Barwin's 2012 salary is less than $1 million. Instead of waiting for next year and giving him, hypothetically, a 5year and $25 million deal... We could offer him an immediate $8 million signing bonus and a six year deal worth the same $25 million. Barwin would like it because he would immediately be given $8 million more in a year where he didn't expect or have any leverage to get. And, the Texans get him on a discount for the subsequent years... Win, Win.
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Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.

Now if we pay sign and trade him or something like that??

1. Trade him to the Patriots for some of their picks. (They have a lot and they need a DE badly.)
 
Texecutioner said:
Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.
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* Not to mention another threat at wide receiver
 
Texecutioner said:
Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.

Now if we pay sign and trade him or something like that??

1. Trade him to the Patriots for some of their picks. (They have a lot and they need a DE badly.)
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C'mon guys (you and Dale), Barwin has played 1 year at a high level. No need to extend him now, make him earn it with another year of production just like Foster did. Plus, extending him now doesn't do anything for the team because rookie deals can't be changed by more than 30%. So his 600k or whatever he is getting can't go up much at all, and his cap hits for signing bonus and new money will all come in 2013 and beyond.
 
Dutchrudder said:
C'mon guys (you and Dale), Barwin has played 1 year at a high level. No need to extend him now, make him earn it with another year of production just like Foster did. Plus, extending him now doesn't do anything for the team because rookie deals can't be changed by more than 30%. So his 600k or whatever he is getting can't go up much at all, and his cap hits for signing bonus and new money will all come in 2013 and beyond.
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Really? the signing bonus on a new deal wouldn't be evenly distributed on the cap for the length of the deal? I don't think that's right. How did Chris Johnson get that monster deal when he was still in the midst of his rookie contract? I think the Texans could do the following:

$8 million signing bonus
2012= $800,000 salary for the first year... then escalating from then on. The cap hit of that $8 million would be evenly divided over the course of the contract, including 2012... I could be wrong but I have never heard otherwise and would appreciate being educated if I am incorrect.

By the way, I believe the Texans' organization should know whether Barwin is worth the money or not after three years in the organization. I believe a key to a great organization is its ability to accurately assess talent already on the team. The Texans have spent three years with him, watching him at practice, his work ethic, his gameday performances, etc... I'd say they had better know his value by now. After all, teams willingly pay millions of dollars to players they have never coached: 1st round rookies.
 
dalemurphy said:
Texecutioner said:
Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.

Now if we pay sign and trade him or something like that??

1. Trade him to the Patriots for some of their picks. (They have a lot and they need a DE badly.)
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* Not to mention another threat at wide receiver
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You know, I like to think I have a down to Earth, emotionally detached opinion about this scenario. I've seen other people's plans, for going forward without Mario Williams.

Not that it matters to either of you, but I've been ok with (& stated as much) those plans that look to address the need at outside pass rusher that you would create going into the 2012 season. Either through FA or the draft, doesn't matter to me, but it would be strange to dump the premier pass rusher of this FA market & grab a lesser player... so it makes more sense to do so in the draft.

Doesn't need to be a first round need, if we do something like invest a 2nd & 4th on outside pass rusher... or get a big body for the DL rotation in the first & an OLB prospect in the third.... something like that.

But to not address the need at all, because you have Barwin & Reed at the OLB position.... that just doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it don't. To think we can go into the 2012 season with Barwin & Reed as our primary pass rushers.... Nading & Brahman our depth... I mean no one in any NFL front office would do something so.. so.. short-sighted.

You'll have Barwin & Reed playing 50-60 snaps a game.. that's not smart. That's what got Mario so dinged up. Then you'll be signing FA pass rushers in the middle of the season (again).

Look, I honestly couldn't care less about Mario Williams being a Texans in 2012 (well, maybe a little). But Barwin, Reed, Nading, & Brahman is not a world champion LB rotation.

It's just not.

One more thing... in case you didn't know. In three years, Connor Barwin has spent almost as much time on IR as Mario Williams has in 6.
 
thunderkyss said:
You know, I like to think I have a down to Earth, emotionally detached opinion about this scenario. I've seen other people's plans, for going forward without Mario Williams.

Not that it matters to either of you, but I've been ok with (& stated as much) those plans that look to address the need at outside pass rusher that you would create going into the 2012 season. Either through FA or the draft, doesn't matter to me, but it would be strange to dump the premier pass rusher of this FA market & grab a lesser player... so it makes more sense to do so in the draft.

Doesn't need to be a first round need, if we do something like invest a 2nd & 4th on outside pass rusher... or get a big body for the DL rotation in the first & an OLB prospect in the third.... something like that.

But to not address the need at all, because you have Barwin & Reed at the OLB position.... that just doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it don't. To think we can go into the 2012 season with Barwin & Reed as our primary pass rushers.... Nading & Brahman our depth... I mean no one in any NFL front office would do something so.. so.. short-sighted.

You'll have Barwin & Reed playing 50-60 snaps a game.. that's not smart. That's what got Mario so dinged up. Then you'll be signing FA pass rushers in the middle of the season (again).

Look, I honestly couldn't care less about Mario Williams being a Texans in 2012 (well, maybe a little). But Barwin, Reed, Nading, & Brahman is not a world champion LB rotation.

It's just not.

One more thing... in case you didn't know. In three years, Connor Barwin has spent almost as much time on IR as Mario Williams has in 6.
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Well I think most would agree that is Mario walks that we need to fill his role on the team with pass rush specialist....say 2nd or 3rd round pick.....

Barwins injury was a fluke, a broken ankle, Marios injuries are yearly and even though he played through them he was not effective

Im not a Mario hater like some of you prolly think I am, but I am a Texans fan, this means I try to look at things rationally and for our future. I think as a team we're better off without Mario and his massive contract, sorry JMO
 
thunderkyss said:
You know, I like to think I have a down to Earth, emotionally detached opinion about this scenario. I've seen other people's plans, for going forward without Mario Williams.

Not that it matters to either of you, but I've been ok with (& stated as much) those plans that look to address the need at outside pass rusher that you would create going into the 2012 season. Either through FA or the draft, doesn't matter to me, but it would be strange to dump the premier pass rusher of this FA market & grab a lesser player... so it makes more sense to do so in the draft.

Doesn't need to be a first round need, if we do something like invest a 2nd & 4th on outside pass rusher... or get a big body for the DL rotation in the first & an OLB prospect in the third.... something like that.

But to not address the need at all, because you have Barwin & Reed at the OLB position.... that just doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it don't. To think we can go into the 2012 season with Barwin & Reed as our primary pass rushers.... Nading & Brahman our depth... I mean no one in any NFL front office would do something so.. so.. short-sighted.

You'll have Barwin & Reed playing 50-60 snaps a game.. that's not smart. That's what got Mario so dinged up. Then you'll be signing FA pass rushers in the middle of the season (again).

Look, I honestly couldn't care less about Mario Williams being a Texans in 2012 (well, maybe a little). But Barwin, Reed, Nading, & Brahman is not a world champion LB rotation.

It's just not.

One more thing... in case you didn't know. In three years, Connor Barwin has spent almost as much time on IR as Mario Williams has in 6.
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Great point. I've already hinted to how could we know if Barwin (or Reed) are not 1 year wonders. Williams had 5 sacks in 4 and 1/4 games. Barwin had 2 sacks through week 8. Reed had ALL of his 6 sacks from week 7 to week 12. He had ZERO in every other week.

BTW Barwin went on IR week 1 of 2010 so he missed 15 games in 3 seasons. Williams missed 14 games in 6 seasons (zero in his first 4).
 
thunderkyss said:
You know, I like to think I have a down to Earth, emotionally detached opinion about this scenario. I've seen other people's plans, for going forward without Mario Williams.

Not that it matters to either of you, but I've been ok with (& stated as much) those plans that look to address the need at outside pass rusher that you would create going into the 2012 season. Either through FA or the draft, doesn't matter to me, but it would be strange to dump the premier pass rusher of this FA market & grab a lesser player... so it makes more sense to do so in the draft.

Doesn't need to be a first round need, if we do something like invest a 2nd & 4th on outside pass rusher... or get a big body for the DL rotation in the first & an OLB prospect in the third.... something like that.

But to not address the need at all, because you have Barwin & Reed at the OLB position.... that just doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but it don't. To think we can go into the 2012 season with Barwin & Reed as our primary pass rushers.... Nading & Brahman our depth... I mean no one in any NFL front office would do something so.. so.. short-sighted.

You'll have Barwin & Reed playing 50-60 snaps a game.. that's not smart. That's what got Mario so dinged up. Then you'll be signing FA pass rushers in the middle of the season (again).

Look, I honestly couldn't care less about Mario Williams being a Texans in 2012 (well, maybe a little). But Barwin, Reed, Nading, & Brahman is not a world champion LB rotation.

It's just not.

One more thing... in case you didn't know. In three years, Connor Barwin has spent almost as much time on IR as Mario Williams has in 6.
Click to expand...


TK,
Who is suggesting having Nading and Braman as primary depth? I have been advocating grabbing a free agent 3-4 OLB this entire time. Having one player count over 10% against the cap lessens team depth, it doesn't improve it. For 2012, you're right, the OLB position would be deeper with Mario than it would without him (or a replacement)... but, what about the rest of the team. If the Texans are committed to winning, all those resources would be spread around to the entire team, creating better depth.

Regarding Barwin's IR stint in 2010 and presumed unreliability I would say this: good thing he counts $1 million against the cap instead of $18 million. That's the problem.. to rely on one player so heavily in a sport where injuries are so prevalent makes little sense. The utter destruction of the Colts this year is a perfect example of that... and they were depending on a player at a non-violent position that had never missed a game due to injury in his entire career.
 
ckhouston said:
Ill take Braman as primary depth. He is in a mold similar to Cushing. Kids a great story and played his ass off last year. Give him a shot.
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I love the kid! However, I think it would be irresponsible to go into the season depending on him at that level. The team is so young and Barwin, with only one real season, would be the most veteran OLB getting minutes. That's too risky. If the Texans let Mario walk, they need to bring in a veteran presence, IMO. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be hopeful that Braman could earn significant minutes on the field with his training camp/preseason performance.

One of the biggest mistakes this team made on defense was it too often entered and exited the off-season with a plan too dependent on unproven players... This was particularly true in the defensive backfield, in 2008-2010. I would've hoped they have learned from those mistakes.
 
dalemurphy said:
There's nothing confusing about it.

1. I believe more in a team concept and less in star players. That's it. I would be much less apt to give huge contracts to "stars" than you.

2. The second point is that I think many have overrated Mario Williams effect in games and his reliability.


I'm fine with people disagreeing with either point, or both. I'm just not sure why it offends people or confuses them.
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Dale, you and I have disagreed on many topics. That said, I tend to agree with you about a "team concept" and less about the "star player"...

*DISCLAIMER*

Scheme means a lot. People run out examples of Jason Babin... Well, YES exactly. Is it him, or is it the scheme he's in? Is Jason Babin worth 13, 14, 17 million a year?? I think not.

I've seen an argument that (hypothetically) asked the question if Connor Barwin gets 12 or so sacks next year and another 14 sacks the following year, is he worth 15 +/- million????

NO!!!

How many times have we seen this formula fail?? Albert Hayensworth comes to mind. If I wasn't having a few cocktails, I might have a few more examples like Mike Mamula (or something like that).

Finally, I have never "overrated" Mario, but I AM a Mario fan and would hope he stays a "TEXAN".. The thing about it is, I'm all about being a "TEXAN" and wish it would make sense to keep him, BUT it doesn't...

He'll make a fine Carolina Panther.
 
Damn people we're talking about a football player not a terrorist attack. Relax get over the prank. After you finish sitting down to tinckle that is. I don't dread Mario going to an AFC team, there's a good chance he'd be hurt for that game anyway. Hou-tex keep up the levity whiners gonna whine.
 
Shaft75 said:
Btw - Rich Lord told me that he's heard from a couple of good sources that Babin is an in the closet poll smoker.
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When he's not getting rear ended outside gay bars by local radio talk show hosts who shall remain anonymous but who's name rhymes with bichael merry.
 
You guys do realize VY and Babin were on the Eagles together last year, right? I guess we now know what Vince meant by "Dream Team"!

:lol:
 
Dale,if barwin had 11 sacks again,what makes u think he would take 8m signing bonus when the franchise tag for a pass rusher is the 2nd or 3rd highest tag in the game. Don't be fooled by his passion as being dumb.

Here is the link to woodley and his deal

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/31123370

Again,the steeler dropped the franchis tag for 10m on woodley after 3 straight double digit sack seasons. His deal was 6 yr 61.5m with a 22m bonus and he will make 27m in the 1st 2 yrs of the deal. So what makes you think barwin will take a 8m signing bonus 2 yrs from now? Here is another deal from a olb rush end.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6...city-chiefs-agree-5-year-60m-deal-source-says

Tamba had a breakout season of 14.5 sacks and got 35m guaranteed and 60m deal. Again, its way more than the 8m signing bonus you think barwin will sign. My whole point of this is you have to pay premium players premium money. Since the texans don't have a franchise qb,they save money on that side. They do have 1 of the best dual threat rbs, a top 5 wr,and a premium pass rusher in mario. No matter what you think about a certain % of the cap mario will cost, they will have to pay for pass rush just like all the other teams. The teams minus a pass rush or a guy teams turn protection too gets killed.
 
dalemurphy said:
Really? the signing bonus on a new deal wouldn't be evenly distributed on the cap for the length of the deal? I don't think that's right. How did Chris Johnson get that monster deal when he was still in the midst of his rookie contract? I think the Texans could do the following:

$8 million signing bonus
2012= $800,000 salary for the first year... then escalating from then on. The cap hit of that $8 million would be evenly divided over the course of the contract, including 2012... I could be wrong but I have never heard otherwise and would appreciate being educated if I am incorrect.

By the way, I believe the Texans' organization should know whether Barwin is worth the money or not after three years in the organization. I believe a key to a great organization is its ability to accurately assess talent already on the team. The Texans have spent three years with him, watching him at practice, his work ethic, his gameday performances, etc... I'd say they had better know his value by now. After all, teams willingly pay millions of dollars to players they have never coached: 1st round rookies.
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I don't want to look it up in the CBA at the moment, but there is a rule about salaried deals and that they can't be increased by any more than 30% in a given year. CJ wanted a big raise after his 2k season, but the Titans by rule couldn't give it to him, which made him look like even more of an idiot given his demands were impossible. Also asking for an extension in the third year of a 4 year rookie deal is pretty lame. It's rare that teams will extend or re-work rookie deals before the last year. What the Titans did for CJ was guarantee all of his potential incentives for 2011, which got him to 3 million in the last year of his rookie deal. Those incentives are not considered new money, so I guess that works. Then they gave him a 4 year extension, which applies to years 5,6,7,8 of his tenure with the Titans. That was worth a 10 mill signing bonus (paid immediately), and another 46 million or so.

***

Turns out they did count the signing bonus against the 2011 cap according to Andrew Brandt. That's odd, as it kind of gets around the 30% rule. Can't change salaries, but signing bonuses are OK! lol... business is business I guess. Sorry Dale, your idea could work. :)
 
Dutchrudder said:
I don't want to look it up in the CBA at the moment, but there is a rule about salaried deals and that they can't be increased by any more than 30% in a given year. CJ wanted a big raise after his 2k season, but the Titans by rule couldn't give it to him, which made him look like even more of an idiot given his demands were impossible. Also asking for an extension in the third year of a 4 year rookie deal is pretty lame. It's rare that teams will extend or re-work rookie deals before the last year. What the Titans did for CJ was guarantee all of his potential incentives for 2011, which got him to 3 million in the last year of his rookie deal. Those incentives are not considered new money, so I guess that works. Then they gave him a 4 year extension, which applies to years 5,6,7,8 of his tenure with the Titans. That was worth a 10 mill signing bonus (paid immediately), and another 46 million or so.

***

Turns out they did count the signing bonus against the 2011 cap according to Andrew Brandt. That's odd, as it kind of gets around the 30% rule. Can't change salaries, but signing bonuses are OK! lol... business is business I guess. Sorry Dale, your idea could work. :)
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Yeah,barwin having double digit sack season and signing a contract with a measley 8m signing bonus. Meawhile, woodley gets franchise tagged and 27m in 1st 2 yrs and tamba hali gets 35m guaranteed,lol. Good luck with that 8m signing bonus.
 
Trade him for draft picks. Money needs to be freed up so we can seal Andre for the rest of his career.
Looking back, drafting Mario over Reggie Bush was a genius move. I think it's safe to say Reggie was a bust in the NFL.
 
jwmann2 said:
Trade him for draft picks. Money needs to be freed up so we can seal Andre for the rest of his career.
Looking back, drafting Mario over Reggie Bush was a genius move. I think it's safe to say Reggie was a bust in the NFL.
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Mario isn't under contract, so he can't be traded sadly. I wouldn't mind a sign+trade deal though.
 
leebigeztx said:
Yeah,barwin having double digit sack season and signing a contract with a measley 8m signing bonus. Meawhile, woodley gets franchise tagged and 27m in 1st 2 yrs and tamba hali gets 35m guaranteed,lol. Good luck with that 8m signing bonus.
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You're missing the point. Barwin is still under his rookie contract. He's scheduled to make only $600,000 for 2012. His incentive to take a less than market deal is the enormous benefit of getting a new contract a year early. In 2012, instead of making less than one million dollars, he would get a check of $8 million, which is twice what he's made his entire career. In return, he would accept he would accept a more moderate deal for the future years, because the Texans just paid him a huge chunk of money before he was due it.

Don't get stuck on "$8 million"... It is a hypothetical number.
 
FearSuperMario said:
This was on rotoworld
http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/228131/texans-aim-to-knock-mario-williams-socks-off
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Due to the emergence of Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed, there's a perception that the Texans' offer will be cursory at best. The Chronicle's John McClain insists the front office realizes they will have to "knock his socks off" to get his attention before March 13. Regardless of the offer, the cap-strapped Texans will get outbid if Williams opts to test the market. The pass rusher has stated his desire to return to Houston, but NFL players rarely pass up the highest offer.
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They rarely turn down the highest offer to stay in (come to) Houston.

If they don't sign him by March 13, he's gone.

& I'm fine with that. I just hope their offer is more than just "cursory"
 
dalemurphy said:
You're missing the point. Barwin is still under his rookie contract. He's scheduled to make only $600,000 for 2012. His incentive to take a less than market deal is the enormous benefit of getting a new contract a year early. In 2012, instead of making less than one million dollars, he would get a check of $8 million, which is twice what he's made his entire career. In return, he would accept he would accept a more moderate deal for the future years, because the Texans just paid him a huge chunk of money before he was due it.

Don't get stuck on "$8 million"... It is a hypothetical number.
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I'm not stuck on a hypothetical number. Woodley was a 2nd rd pick and hali was in the 20s and those guys played it out. If barwin has 10 sacks or more, he will play his contract out or become restricted. That will force the texans to either drop the franchise tag on him which is over 10m in 1 yr. If he bets on himself like a lot of guys do, a 2nd franchise tender is 120% of the previous year. Bottomline is if barwin has proved to be a double digit sack guy, his money is between 25-35m guarantee on a 6 yr 60m deal like hali,woodley,harrison, and all the other player who play that position. If his agent tells him to take 8m signing bonus now, he will get abused and never get another client. Any way u squirm around it, you're going to pay at least 10m per season for rush lbs in a 3-4.
 
leebigeztx said:
Yeah,barwin having double digit sack season and signing a contract with a measley 8m signing bonus. Meawhile, woodley gets franchise tagged and 27m in 1st 2 yrs and tamba hali gets 35m guaranteed,lol. Good luck with that 8m signing bonus.
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I'm not the one proposing it, just checking the validity of paying him during a rookie deal.
 
Maybe the Texans will be able to make a good run at Mike Wallace instead. You gotta think he'd love to come here for another shot at the Super Bowl and he'd be an excellent #2.
 
DocBar said:
Maybe the Texans will be able to make a good run at Mike Wallace instead. You gotta think he'd love to come here for another shot at the Super Bowl and he'd be an excellent #2.
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Funny you mentioned this. A poster at another forum I regular just posted this:

There's no way that the Steelers tag Wallace. He isn't worth $9M/yr. He's a quality person and a great player, but he's still limited in his game. There's a reason he lasted until the fourth round. There are certain teams that might sign him, but he'd basically end up worthless to them. The Pats would be one of those, Brady doesn't have the arm to get it to him and Wallace isn't out-jumping the defense like Moss. He'd be best on a run heavy team. In fact, I'm hoping that Wallace takes a little less than what he's worth and sticks around and then Haley employs a heavy dose of pap.
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I bolded the parts that struck me for obvious reasons. Guy is a big time Steelers fan.
 
Dutchrudder said:
I'm not the one proposing it, just checking the validity of paying him during a rookie deal.
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I think guys are learning from those philly eagle guys. Osi also said he made a mistake signing such a long deal because the landscape changes so much. I know what murphy is saying by putting real money in front and hope to get him cheap,but more and more these guys are riding out their deals and signing monster deals. That's what hali and woodley did. Injury is always a concern,true enough, but barwins agent know the worth of a rush olb at his age and future production. Look at a team like new england who has been looking since willie and vrabel left. These guys get on the open market and a team like the patriots scoop them up. In fact, look at indy who is building a 3-4 and they will have big time cap room once they let some of their older guys go.
 
DX-TEX said:
Funny you mentioned this. A poster at another forum I regular just posted this:



I bolded the parts that struck me for obvious reasons. Guy is a big time Steelers fan.
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Maybe being around the likes of AJ and Schaub could make a difference with him. I know very little about him other than damned good stats. He can really stretch the field and has good hands. I haven't heard anything very negative about him at all, but I've not done a ton of looking at him, either.
 
DX-TEX said:
Funny you mentioned this. A poster at another forum I regular just posted this:

Brady doesn't have the arm to get it to him and Wallace isn't out-jumping the defense like Moss
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I bolded the parts that struck me for obvious reasons. Guy is a big time Steelers fan.
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hmm...... why would a receiver need a QB with an arm bigger than Tom Brady's?
 
thunderkyss said:
hmm...... why would a receiver need a QB with an arm bigger than Tom Brady's?
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Because Brady has a small arm. DUH!!! :shades:
His arm can't be more that 16-17"'s. I knew this really fat guy that had a 32" arm. Of course, he couldn;t throw a football 20 yds. cuz he was too fat to stand up. Anywho, arm size is all the rage in the NFL. :sarcasm: in case you were wondering.
 
dalemurphy said:
For instance, let's look at Barwin:

Barwin's 2012 salary is less than $1 million. Instead of waiting for next year and giving him, hypothetically, a 5year and $25 million deal... We could offer him an immediate $8 million signing bonus and a six year deal worth the same $25 million. Barwin would like it because he would immediately be given $8 million more in a year where he didn't expect or have any leverage to get. And, the Texans get him on a discount for the subsequent years... Win, Win.
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Texecutioner said:
Take money spent or "going to spend money" on MW for several years and

1. Use it to extend Barwin while we can get him for another discount.
2. Have some of it ready to extend Foster.
3. Find an upgrade at either CB or S in FA.

Now if we pay sign and trade him or something like that??

1. Trade him to the Patriots for some of their picks. (They have a lot and they need a DE badly.)
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Your scenarios assume that Barwin and his agent are idiots and don't see what you're trying to do - "get him at a discount". I think they'd say "no thanks" to that deal. His agent will advise him to play out his contract with the thought that if he keeps up his current level of play and keeps piling up the sacks, Barwin will REALLY get paid when this contract runs out.
 
ObsiWan said:
Your scenarios assume that Barwin and his agent are idiots and don't see what you're trying to do - "get him at a discount". I think they'd say "no thanks" to that deal. His agent will advise him to play out his contract with the thought that if he keeps up his current level of play and keeps piling up the sacks, Barwin will REALLY get paid when this contract runs out.
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There is nothing idiotic about getting paid a year early. It increases the likelihood of a second, large contract. It reduces risk and offers certainty.

How is it idiotic for Barwin to agree to receive an extra $5-$10 million in 2012 than to receive that money years later?

scenario one... play out contract and then sign a 5 year deal

2012- $600,000
2013- 5 yrs and $35 million ($10 million signing bonus)

Barwin makes $35,600,000 between now and 2018. His cap hit between 2013 and 2017 averages $7 million per year.

scenario two... take a new deal this year
2012- 6 years and $33 million ($10 million signing bonus)

Barwin makes $33 million between now and 2018. However, in 2012, he receives a check for $10 million, which quadruples his net worth. The Texans get a slight discount because they are paying him millions of dollars a year early. There is a further advantage to the cap in 2013-2017 because about $ 3million of the cap charge has been eaten up in the 2012 contract, taking that amount off the books for 2013 and beyond.
His cap hit averages less than $6 million per year in 2013-2017.
 
Mario to New England? More of an opinion piece than rumor by this Pro Football Weekly writer, Eric Edholm.

Patriots could make run at Texans' Williams

Posted Feb. 12, 2012 @ 10:41 a.m. ET
By Eric Edholm

This could all be moot if the Texans try to wrap up their superstar defender. And if the Patriots go about business the way they have for the majority of the past decade, we can't expect them to provide too many free-agent fireworks.

But it would not stun me one bit if the Patriots make a play for DE Mario Williams.

Bill Belichick is nothing if not opportunistic, and he knows that having one of the finest defensive talents potentially come free like this is a once-a-decade kind of thing he can't afford to pass up. All the signs are there: The Patriots are in great shape, in terms of salary cap, and they have a defense that made strides down the stretch (16.3 points per game allowed in the postseason) but needs a jolt of talent up front.

Williams is 27. He's a superstar. The injury carries little long-term concern. The Texans are way over the cap and have two young, very capable players in Connor Barwin and Brooks Reed who can rush the passer. The Texans' defense did not drop off after Williams' injury; instead, it continued to improve throughout the season. Much as they might want to keep Williams, in many ways a franchise cornerstone the past six years, they might not be able to. Reports have surfaced that the Texans seriously are torn and are starting to accept the idea that they might have to let Williams walk.
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Belichick has dabbled in free agency before. The Adalius Thomas signing was a disaster. But, he has to upgrade the talent on defense. And Williams is the most talented defender on the market. Plus, Belichick would be removing a Pro Bowl caliber player from another AFC contender. That might be too tempting for the Hoody to pass up.

Mario's agent would be ecstatic if the Patriots showed interest. Williams can play on a winner and become the highest paid defender in the league? That might be enough to pry Mario from his comfort zone in Houston.

I still believe Williams stays in Houston, by signing a very lucrative contract. Just not the highest contract by a defensive player. But if Mario does move on, New England makes the most sense.
 
badboy said:
Mario Williams contract ends in March. He can be traded.
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First, the trade deadline is still in effect until the new league year. By which time, Williams contract will have expired. Williams can't be traded until he's under contract. If the Texans apply the franchise tag, and Williams signs it, he can then be traded. But, that's not going to happen.
 
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