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Manziel

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kingtexan said:
Vick entered the league basically being what JFF is going to be ... extremely talented and extremely immature. Vick turned it around and although he still isnt the pro Manning is, he is light years ahead of where he was when he went down. I think he could be a positive influence, and may want that chance to go out being known as such.
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Vick never went to a specialist and worked to improve his footwork and delivery. JFF maybe come off bit immature in the media, but reports are he's a hard worker in the film and training rooms and is extremely coachable.
 
kingtexan said:
I am not sure that is true on either front. On accuracy I seriously disagree, as I have seen JFF make some extremely tough throws with dead-on accuracy. As it relates to arm strength then yeah maybe not up there with Favre, but probably comparable to Young.
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Lol....you're comparing a few passes a kid has made in college to a guy in Steve Young who's regarded as one of if not the the most accurate qb ever?

Favre...there's not any comparison in any shape or form other than both are regarded as gunslinger types....
 
kingtexan said:
JFF will never be a pocket passer. If we want to be honest and wanted to bring in what he has the potential to become, bring in Young (Steve not Vince) or Favre.
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Still, even though Manziel will never be a pure pocket passer, I think it would be much more beneficial for him to learn from a veteran that is more of that mold, since staying and throwing in the pocket is one of his weaknesses. A guy like Matt Cassell or Josh McCown, while not stars themselves, have been in the league for a long time and have been around some of the best...I would much prefer someone of that nature to pass down wisdom to Johnny than a guy like Vick who never really grasped the finer parts of playing Quarterback in the NFL.
 
Mr teX said:
Lol....you're comparing a few passes a kid has made in college to a guy in Steve Young who's regarded as one of if not the the most accurate qb ever?

Favre...there's not any comparison in any shape or form other than both are regarded as gunslinger types....
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We are only talking about playing style and potential. JFF has shown nothing in the pros, as he has yet to become one. National media experts and former players have compared his style to both Young and Favre, but again we wont know until he takes the NFL field. Brett was more of a pocket passer in college, and ended up playing more like JFF does now in the pros. Anything can change, anything can happen.
 
matts290 said:
Still, even though Manziel will never be a pure pocket passer, I think it would be much more beneficial for him to learn from a veteran that is more of that mold, since staying and throwing in the pocket is one of his weaknesses. A guy like Matt Cassell or Josh McCown, while not stars themselves, have been in the league for a long time and have been around some of the best...I would much prefer someone of that nature to pass down wisdom to Johnny than a guy like Vick who never really grasped the finer parts of playing Quarterback in the NFL.
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If we are going to sign a pure pocket passing veteran I would prefer we draft Bortles or Carr or another QB that shares that style and ability, to then be able to maximize their potential.
 
kingtexan said:
If we are going to sign a pure pocket passing veteran I would prefer we draft Bortles or Carr or another QB that shares that style and ability, to then be able to maximize their potential.
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In the event that we do sign a veteran QB, it should in no way effect who we draft...you don't pick your QB from the draft based on some place holder you have on the roster. You draft the best QB you can, no matter how their skill set matches up with other QBs on the roster.
 
Mr teX said:
JFF's game is modeled after Vick's but there's nothing Vick can teach him that any other capable coach can't teach him.

Besides, Vick's main issues stemmed from him being lazy, not spending enough time in the film room...largely b/c he didn't know how to study film. He simply thought his athletic abilities would get him by. That's the case for alot of guys like him coming out though. & any coach worth his weight in salt should be able to teach their qb's that.
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Correct on the problems.

I'd say Vick has had some very good coaching and absolutely none of it has stuck. The guy (and his tongue wagging follower) can't learn the most basic of peewee coaching such as tucking the MF'ng ball. That's not on the coaches.

Stemp said:
JFF maybe come off bit immature in the media, but reports are he's a hard worker in the film and training rooms and is extremely coachable.
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Then why can't he learn something so simple as tucking the ball?
 
kingtexan said:
We are only talking about playing style and potential. JFF has shown nothing in the pros, as he has yet to become one. National media experts and former players have compared his style to both Young and Favre, but again we wont know until he takes the NFL field. Brett was more of a pocket passer in college, and ended up playing more like JFF does now in the pros. Anything can change, anything can happen.
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yes, I'll grant you and everyone else who believes in him that....anything can happen.....
 
matts290 said:
In the event that we do sign a veteran QB, it should in no way effect who we draft...you don't pick your QB from the draft based on some place holder you have on the roster. You draft the best QB you can, no matter how their skill set matches up with other QBs on the roster.
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I agree and really the statement should have been reversed. If we draft a mobile QB who is reactionary and extends plays, having a statue show him the ropes may not be the best idea. Same goes if we draft a pocket guy, we don't want Vick tutoring him IMO.
 
infantrycak said:
If you put mentor and Vick in the same sentence with anything other than "worst possible" you need to go give yourself a swirlie.

Suitable for what? - guaranteeing Manziel becomes a self-absorbed, uncoachable, low effort, prima donna?
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Swirlie = lol. Haven't heard that in a long long time. Oh, the memories of being in High School in the days where hazing was merely a tradition

Agreed on Vick. The dude has pork rinds for brains. The dude hasn't even played a full season since the Falcons.
 
kingtexan said:
Vick entered the league basically being what JFF is going to be ... extremely talented and extremely immature. Vick turned it around and although he still isnt the pro Manning is, he is light years ahead of where he was when he went down. I think he could be a positive influence, and may want that chance to go out being known as such.
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I'll agree in so much that I do see the similarities in Vick & Manziel. But I think the "immature" thing is overblown in the case of Manziel & I don't believe it was an issue for Vick.

I also think the "Vick turned it around" thing was overblown. He had that one good season, got paid, then reverted back to the old Vick.

I don't think Manziel wants to run as much as most people think. I don't think the offense he was in gave him too many options.

I also don't think we should spend the #1 overall to find out.
 
kingtexan said:
Vick entered the league basically being what JFF is going to be ... extremely talented and extremely immature. Vick turned it around and although he still isnt the pro Manning is, he is light years ahead of where he was when he went down. I think he could be a positive influence, and may want that chance to go out being known as such.

We are most likely drafting Clowney, and if not trading the pick, so it really is just a discussion for the sake of discussing ... very little chance we ever find out if it works or not.
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And what makes you think Manziel is immature?
 
mussop said:
And what makes you think Manziel is immature?
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C'mon, you may not agree but you know full well what people are talking about when saying Manziel is immature. Going to a UT party, saying he can't wait to get out of College Station, his childish celebrations, blowing the Manning camp...

It's like asking "what makes you think Clowney has motivation issues." Everyone knows the issue, they just disagree on the significance.
 
infantrycak said:
C'mon, you may not agree but you know full well what people are talking about when saying Manziel is immature. Going to a UT party, saying he can't wait to get out of College Station, his childish celebrations, blowing the Manning camp...

It's like asking "what makes you think Clowney has motivation issues." Everyone knows the issue, they just disagree on the significance.
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I think a of lot the 'immaturity' perception was blown up over the offseason (as with Clowney's notoriety due to 'The Hit'); most of those just sound like a kid in college - even Peyton brushed off that talk when asked about Manziel not appearing at the QB camp. And childish celebrations? Really?

I agree with the Favre comparisons; I think people will be surprised by JFF and he will be more successful than people predict, though I don't think he's the right guy for OB's offense.
 
bhsman said:
I think a of lot the 'immaturity' perception was blown up over the offseason (as with Clowney's notoriety due to 'The Hit'); most of those just sound like a kid in college - even Peyton brushed off that talk when asked about Manziel not appearing at the QB camp. And childish celebrations? Really?
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I am not arguing the merits of the concerns. Just saying it is silly to waste time asking as if the issue doesn't exist.

And yes his celebrations are childish and drew a penalty. Totally miniscule but an example of the overall immaturity issue.
 
infantrycak said:
I am not arguing the merits of the concerns. Just saying it is silly to waste time asking as if the issue doesn't exist.

And yes his celebrations are childish and drew a penalty. Totally miniscule but an example of the overall immaturity issue.
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Aside from that, can you recall any issues during football season?

I can't either - and even if you think Manziel is an immature douche in the offseason, it's hard to deny that during football season he's all business. Outside the money celebration in the first game he had 0 issues all season long.
 
htownfan32 said:
Aside from that, can you recall any issues during football season?

I can't either - and even if you think Manziel is an immature douche in the offseason, it's hard to deny that during football season he's all business. Outside the money celebration in the first game he had 0 issues all season long.
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I really wasn't trying to get into this. Oh well.

I consider his failure to secure the football to be some combination of immaturity or lack of coachability. Don't really care what pigeonhole it goes in, it is a serious on field problem to me.
 
htownfan32 said:
Aside from that, can you recall any issues during football season?

I can't either - and even if you think Manziel is an immature douche in the offseason, it's hard to deny that during football season he's all business. Outside the money celebration in the first game he had 0 issues all season long.
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Did you even read the post you are quoting? He's not making the argument, just stating that everyone already knows the argument.
 
infantrycak said:
I really wasn't trying to get into this. Oh well.

I consider his failure to secure the football to be some combination of immaturity or lack of coachability. Don't really care what pigeonhole it goes in, it is a serious on field problem to me.
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Are you referring to how he holds the ball when he takes off to run? :confused:
 
infantrycak said:
I am talking about handling the ball when he is not in his throwing motion. He is far too cavalier about it.
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And you take that as immaturity? He never really had a problem losing fumbles, but I agree he held it out too much, but got away with it in college.In the NFL he probably won't be so lucky, the DE in NFL have longer arms and will always swat at the ball soon as they get into range...whereas in college I think defenders were always more focused on just getting a hand on him period.
 
The more people want us to draft Manziel, the less likely it's going to happen, so keep it up all you Manziel lovers, keep it up.
 
infantrycak said:
I am not arguing the merits of the concerns. Just saying it is silly to waste time asking as if the issue doesn't exist.

And yes his celebrations are childish and drew a penalty. Totally miniscule but an example of the overall immaturity issue.
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It's totally over blown. He was under a bigger microscope than any player in college football. He made several minor mistakes. He was criticized like he committed a major crime. He obviously learned from it because while still being under the biggest microscope, he went through the entire year without incident. If anything that shows maturity.

So no it's not silly.

infantrycak said:
I consider his failure to secure the football to be some combination of immaturity or lack of coachability.
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Now that is silly.
 
matts290 said:
And you take that as immaturity? He never really had a problem losing fumbles, but I agree he held it out too much, but got away with it in college.In the NFL he probably won't be so lucky, the DE in NFL have longer arms and will always swat at the ball soon as they get into range...whereas in college I think defenders were always more focused on just getting a hand on him period.
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There was an OR in my statement.

mussop said:
Now that is silly.
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Then explain it. It is simple, he doesn't fix it and it is an on field problem. Pick your choice of words, quibbling over the description is silly.
 
Allstar said:
Did you even read the post you are quoting? He's not making the argument, just stating that everyone already knows the argument.
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I get that. His first sentence makes it pretty clear. What I was doing is trying to refute the immaturity that others keep claiming by branching off of his post, especially since most people bring up the money celebration. Cak's post just happened to be the last one to reference it, so I branched off that.

infantrycak said:
I am talking about handling the ball when he is not in his throwing motion. He is far too cavalier about it.
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aggies-qb-johnny-manziel.jpg


Like this? He's at best inconsistent about ball security, and it's a major concern to me too when he runs it like that. He's going to fumble a lot if this happens.
 
PROSPECT PROFILE: JOHNNY MANZIEL
...I have spoken with numerous respected NFL scouts about him, and it's an understatement to say that opinions are split. A few have told me they feel he is the best quarterback in the draft, which is high praise indeed. But on the other hand, others have actually said they would not draft him. Needless to say, opinions split that drastically on a player are rare.

The first thing that grabbed my attention is that Manziel definitely has what scouts call a "plus arm," which means he can make every NFL throw with ease. While he often looks like he is playing schoolyard football, he has consistently shown quickness in getting rid of the ball and can make throws to lead receivers that few other passers can. Both in the pocket and on the move, Manziel's ability to throw accurately 16-plus yards downfield is outstanding, and you can see from watching film that he has spent a lot of time working with his receivers, as their timing on back-shoulder throws is remarkable. Although some of his moves to escape sacks will get him killed in the NFL, he does possess a rare ability to avoid pressure and sacks to buy himself a second chance that can extend plays longer than any quarterback I have ever evaluated.

Having to throw as many passes as he did, it's also impressive that Manziel throws few, if any, passes that defenders can get their hands on. Of the top five quarterbacks I have evaluated so far (Derek Carr, Blake Bortles, Bridgewater, Zach Mettenberger and Manziel), he has the lowest error/interception rate of any of them. Not only does Manziel have the passing skills to succeed in the NFL, but his ability to lead his team and carry them on his back to comebacks consistently has been incredible.

After evaluating film, I was shocked by how good Manziel is as a passer, but that's often not what people associate with him when his name comes up. Despite the media reports, nearly everything I have been able to dig up on Manziel's character has been positive. (Having worked for two NFL teams, I completely understand that scouts lie to media all the time to deceive and hide intentions, but I have tremendous confidence in my sources on this subject.) No one I spoke to will deny that Manziel can act like a spoiled kid who is still maturing as a young man, but none expressed great concern about his true character, with the consensus being that football is very important to Manziel and that he consistently does more than is asked to make sure he is successful.

Manziel is viewed within the program as a rare competitor who will do anything to succeed, and this shows in his willingness to play through pain and confront teammates when needed as leaders must do. One thing that shocked me when speaking to scouts is that prior to practice and games, Manziel actually goes through the process of making tough throws from awkward positions when he cannot set his feet and this shows up in his ability to make great throws despite terrible positioning. Not that his raw footwork is good when he has a clean pocket or time and space to reset feet, but it clearly pays dividends when outside the pocket.

Apart from positive character reports, scouts definitely expressed some real concerns that he must address in order to be as successful in the NFL as he was in college. High on that list is Manziel's tendency to...
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http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/67254668/nfl-prospect-profile-quarterback-johnny-manziel
 
lowest error/interception rate of any of them.
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What is this guy using as an error rate because INTs clearly are not in Manziel's favor against several of those guys?

No one I spoke to will deny that Manziel can act like a spoiled kid who is still maturing as a young man, but none expressed great concern about his true character
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Talk about an amorphous qualifier swallowing a definitive statement.

Everyone says Manziel acts like a spoiled kid at least at times.

But the author didn't find any of the concerns expressed "great" whatever that means.
 
infantrycak said:
What is this guy using as an error rate because INTs clearly are not in Manziel's favor against several of those guys?


Talk about an amorphous qualifier swallowing a definitive statement.

Everyone says Manziel acts like a spoiled kid at least at times.

But the author didn't find any of the concerns expressed "great" whatever that means.
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If I was proferring a guess, I'd say he's saying that a sizeable percentage of those ints aren't "on the qb". Weird tipped balls, deflections, etc.

As to the "none were great" statement, that sounds like typical scout fodder. We're somewhat concerned by "a", but its not a show-stopper.
 
I don't want us to Draft Manziel... but he's the only QB with enough "special" about him to trade up for.

I can see teams falling in love with Manziel, Clowney, or Watkins to want to trade up to get them. The other guys, not so much...
 
disaacks3 said:
If I was proferring a guess, I'd say he's saying that a sizeable percentage of those ints aren't "on the qb". Weird tipped balls, deflections, etc.
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I would guess the same but that has to call into the question the objectivity of the review. Manziel and Bridgewater have the same number of attempts last year so you have to eliminate 9 of 13 INT's to get even and that is if you don't discount 2 of Bridgewater's as tipped.
 
infantrycak said:
I would guess the same but that has to call into the question the objectivity of the review. Manziel and Bridgewater have the same number of attempts last year so you have to eliminate 9 of 13 INT's to get even and that is if you don't discount 2 of Bridgewater's as tipped.
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I'm wondering if it's based on multi-year performance?
 
disaacks3 said:
I'm wondering if it's based on multi-year performance?
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Could be. Even there the disparity seems tough to overcome. It's only an about 20 attempt difference so that is inconsequential when the total is around 850. Bridgewater has 10 less INT's. That is 45% of JF's INTs eliminated with none of TB's just to get even.

I'm not slagging Manziel, just dubious on the claim.
 
infantrycak said:
Could be. Even there the disparity seems tough to overcome. It's only an about 20 attempt difference so that is inconsequential when the total is around 850. Bridgewater has 10 less INT's. That is 45% of JF's INTs eliminated with none of TB's just to get even.

I'm not slagging Manziel, just dubious on the claim.
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To me, that's where strength of competition & "expectations" come into play.

3 INTs is still extremely low, correcting for competition level, I'd say that's maybe 5~7, which is still "better" than Manziel's 13.

Both guys were trying to be better than they were last season, so the "expectations" thing is a wash.
 
I don't know why people are still talking about Manziel, someone posted on here that they heard from their mothers fathers sons daughters nieces cousins uncle twice removed from their uncles side who's friends nana's son works at the garbage dump spoke with O'Brien and he said there is no way the Texans are drafting him.

:locked:
 
TEXANRED said:
I don't know why people are still talking about Manziel, someone posted on here that they heard from their mothers fathers sons daughters nieces cousins uncle twice removed from their uncles side who's friends nana's son works at the garbage dump spoke with O'Brien and he said there is no way the Texans are drafting him.

:locked:
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Wow! I know him
 
infantrycak said:
What is this guy using as an error rate because INTs clearly are not in Manziel's favor against several of those guys?
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Most scouts will only chart 4/5 maybe 6 games against toughest competition, so I assume that's what he did here. And "errors" could be all kinds of things: throwing into double coverage, interceptable balls, subtracting catchables/tips, missing the open guy, etc. It was asked in the comments -- we'll see if he details it.

infantrycak said:
But the author didn't find any of the concerns expressed "great" whatever that means.
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I believe his point was Manziel showed immaturity versus bad character (Ryan Leaf).
 
infantrycak said:
What is this guy using as an error rate because INTs clearly are not in Manziel's favor against several of those guys?
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Yeah, that stopped me, too.

I can only assume that he's creating a stat on his own by looking at every pick each one of those QBs threw and then assigning the interception to either the WR or the QB based on who he thought made the error. THEN he's computing his own interception/error rate based off that.

I mean, if a QB throws the ball and it hits his guy in the hands, pops up, and gets intercepted... why blame the QB for it? If the QB made the right read and the WR ran the wrong route and it ended up picked, why blame the QB?

I'm not positive the guy did that but if he did, it would be a better stat than just looking at the pure int numbers.
 
Playoffs said:
Most scouts will only chart 4/5 maybe 6 games against toughest competition, so I assume that's what he did here. And "errors" could be all kinds of things: throwing into double coverage, interceptable balls, subtracting catchables/tips, missing the open guy, etc. It was asked in the comments -- we'll see if he details it.


I believe his point was Manziel showed immaturity versus bad character (Ryan Leaf).
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The TB fans are going to try a rip this guy to shreds because he doesn't say what they want to see and hear. Let me throw them a bone, last year Russ Lande thought Ryan Nassib was the top QB in the draft and would be a Top 10 pick. Lande has been around for a long time, watches a ton of film and is often the contrarian. He definitely doesn't do the group think thing. I read him regularly just to get another perspective. You can follow him on twitter @RUSSLANDE.
 
RSP Boiler Room: QB Johnny Manziel and Why I Think of Ali
The Boiler Room Series is my attempt to capture the state of an NFL prospect’s development into a single play. This is an impossible task, but what if you have a limited number of plays to state your case about a prospect to the leadership team within your organization? If you’ve researched enough about this player, a cut-up of choice plays with a short presentation can provide a decent assessment of strengths, weaknesses, and potential fit for the team.

I have already performed an extensive analysis if Johnny Manziel’s game in a Futures column this fall, but the Aggie’s starter is one of the more intriguing players I have studied in nine years. Sigmund Bloom’s parallel between Manziel and a boxer fits. I’ll even put a name to the parallel that Bloom didn’t, because there are similarities of unique, unorthodox technique: Muhammad Ali...
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smileys-boxing-570565.gif
 
Chris Mortensen ‏@mortreport
Many draft QBs hit NYC scene, Perceived party boy Johnny Manziel passed up lucrative opportunities to prepare for the NFL Combine in 21 days
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Bfe40exIYAA8CgQ.jpg

[IMGwidthsize=317]http://cdn.faniq.com/images/photos/photo_large/36/22784536-816.jpg[/IMG]
 
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Most people who are immature at a young age usually become more mature as they get older. That is all!
 
Texian said:
Most people who are immature at a young age usually become more mature as they get older. That is all!
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Maturity often comes with age. How profound. But it is something some people forget after watching so many fail to mature because of early rewards based on potential rather than production.
 
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