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Manziel

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bah007 said:
If by "made it" you mean elite QB then I agree. If by "made it" you mean he isn't the biggest reason why that 2-14 team is now in the playoffs then I disagree.
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By made it I mean elite. By extension what I am saying is it didn't take an elite QB to get that 2-14 team to the playoffs.

I posted this in TexansTalk on what to expect from the Texans next season: The average 2 win team lost 2.7 more games than their prior season to get to 2 wins. The Colts and Texans are very atypical with the Colts losing 8 games more and the Texans losing 10 more games - both primarily due to QB issues. I expect those kinds of teams to have a bigger bounce because they are bouncing back to a much higher starting point than usual.
 
mussop said:
I just don't think it's odd. I would think he probably doesn't have much free time.
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He was probably busy watching Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan State, etc. film. Then recruiting. Then watching some Penn State film, then recruiting some more. Then maybe babysitting a couple of his players. Why would he spend any time watching JFF?
 
mussop said:
I just don't think it's odd. I would think he probably doesn't have much free time.
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paycheck71 said:
He was probably busy watching Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan State, etc. film. Then recruiting. Then watching some Penn State film, then recruiting some more. Then maybe babysitting a couple of his players. Why would he spend any time watching JFF?
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Honest question..... are you guys friends with any college coaches? Those guys are football junkies. I haven't met one who doesn't DVR games and watch as much football as possible. Its really kind of annoying.
 
Texn4life said:
Honest question..... are you guys friends with any college coaches? Those guys are football junkies. I haven't met one who doesn't DVR games and watch as much football as possible. Its really kind of annoying.
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If he's watching film of upcoming opponents and recruits as well as from his own team, there's little time left for the media darlings. This is as much as possible for a married man with a special needs son.

His focus on balancing football with life is a characteristic which helps me get over his Yankee roots.
 
bah007 said:
Just 1 QB? So any guy could have just stepped in and got them to 10-6? Or did it take a QB with a certain level of skill?

I'm not foolish enough to argue that Luck is an elite QB at this point. But that is not some dream team supporting cast he has around him. The guy might dig a hole now and then that he can't crawl out of, but he has been in the league for two whole years. Plus, he leads the entire NFL in 4th quarter comeback wins during those two years.

If y'all can't see it then I can't help you. It's there. He just hasn't quite put it all together yet.
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That is exactly what Im getting at - He's good , but hasn't lived up to the hype. He's not great at this point.
 
Corrosion said:
That is exactly what Im getting at - He's good , but hasn't lived up to the hype. He's not great at this point.
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He's a top 10 QB that just helped his team make the playoffs for the 2nd time in 2 yrs and has more comeback wins than any QB in the NFL during that time. Luck has certainly lived up to my expectations.

I feel sorry for the QB that the Rick drafts if expectations are higher than these.
 
Corrosion said:
That is exactly what Im getting at - He's good , but hasn't lived up to the hype. He's not great at this point.
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Eh, I think he's lived up to the expectations that were placed on him. He's only been in the league two years. What hasn't he done that he was expected to accomplish by this point?

And while I'm wouldn't call him elite yet I do think he is great. I think he's a top 8 QB in the league with plenty of potential to get even better.
 
WolverineFan said:
That's semantics. If that's true, then the RG3 trade is also not relevant to this discussion because there is no outstanding talent available that would dictate such a trade like there was in 2012.

I've said it over and over, talent dictates value. The value is not as high this year as it was with RG3. You can't just point to the 2012 trade and say that is the value of the 2014 #1 pick. The talent pool dictates the value.

I agree with you that those pre-New CBA trades are not in line with the current value attributed to draft picks but, as I said, using the RG3 trade as the standard is not accurate either.
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Would you not agree that talent is not the only thing dictating value? Pressure on coach/owner to get "over the top" or turn a season around would also effect how a player is valued. Similarly a team like Houston or Vikings or Cleveland with basically no QB would be willing to pay more than a team with an average player. Costs as previously discussed would also make a huge difference under this CBA; and this is what makes it exciting.
 
Are we seriously questioning Luck????? Luck has been GREAT! He has the roster of a 2-14 team and elevated them to the playoffs. He's not good all of the time, but they are where they are because of Luck.
 
Texn4life said:
Are we seriously questioning Luck????? Luck has been GREAT! He has the roster of a 2-14 team and elevated them to the playoffs. He's not good all of the time, but they are where they are because of Luck.
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A 2-14 team that was a division winner the year before they lost Manning. That team wasn't nearly as bad as their record ....


Luck was called a once in a generation talent , the hype and expectations were .... unrealistic. Unless he wins multiple superbowls , I don't think he has lived up to the hype.

I am not saying he's not a good QB or that he's not a top 3rd of the league QB .... I'm simply stating that to this point he has not lived up to the hype. He has a lot of W's .... but his stats are rather pedestrian.


Best QB prospect since Manning was the label they put on him .... Kaepernick has outperformed him.
Career #'s -
Completion percentage advantage Kaepernick - 59.8-57
Percent intercepted advantage Kaepernick - 1.7 - 2.3
Percentage of passes resulting in a TD Advantage Kaepernick - 4.9-3.8
Yards per pass advantage Kaepernick - 7.9-6.8
QBR advantage Kaepernick - 93.8 - 81.5

Kaeperick has a superbowl appearance and is playing in his second consecutive NFC championship game.
Luck is 1-2 in the playoffs having failed to go beyond the divisional round.


Tell me again he's lived up to expectations of being the greatest QB prospect in the last 18 years when he's been outperformed by a guy drafted in the 3rd round.
There are others who have outperformed him ....


That's not to say he isn't a good QB or that he wont improve or that he wont win in the post season .... Just that the expectations placed upon him from the get go were unrealistic and unless he wins as many Superbowls as Joe Montana .... he wont have lived up to the hype.

Right now , Luck cant hold Manning's jock .... and I cant stand either of them (unless you put them in a Texans uniform).
 
bah007 said:
Just 1 QB? So any guy could have just stepped in and got them to 10-6? Or did it take a QB with a certain level of skill?

I'm not foolish enough to argue that Luck is an elite QB at this point. But that is not some dream team supporting cast he has around him. The guy might dig a hole now and then that he can't crawl out of, but he has been in the league for two whole years. Plus, he leads the entire NFL in 4th quarter comeback wins during those two years.

If y'all can't see it then I can't help you. It's there. He just hasn't quite put it all together yet.
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They're generally low scoring games. Would we think any different of Matt Schaub if our defense wasn't giving up 30+ every game in 2010 & his last drive turned into "game winning drives"?


If the Colts gave up 30+ on the regular, how many of those 4th qtr comebacks would have happened?
 
steelbtexan said:
He's a top 10 QB that just helped his team make the playoffs for the 2nd time in 2 yrs and has more comeback wins than any QB in the NFL during that time. Luck has certainly lived up to my expectations.

I feel sorry for the QB that the Rick drafts if expectations are higher than these.
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Sounds like Mark Sanchez a few years back.
 
steelbtexan said:
He's a top 10 QB that just helped his team make the playoffs for the 2nd time in 2 yrs and has more comeback wins than any QB in the NFL during that time. Luck has certainly lived up to my expectations.

I feel sorry for the QB that the Rick drafts if expectations are higher than these.
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Seriously. Is there anyone in here who wouldn't trade our 1:1 for Luck this second?
 
disaacks3 said:
Seriously. Is there anyone in here who wouldn't trade our 1:1 for Luck this second?
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Pretty cut and dried...

As part of ESPN's NFL Nation Confidential survey of more than 320 players, the questions were asked, "If you had to start a team with one player, whom would it be?"
...
Manning was the leading vote-getter as first pick to start a team, with 62 votes (19 percent). Andrew Luck, who replaced Manning in Indianapolis, received 56 votes, and Tom Brady was third with 41 votes.
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thunderkyss said:
They're generally low scoring games. Would we think any different of Matt Schaub if our defense wasn't giving up 30+ every game in 2010 & his last drive turned into "game winning drives"?


If the Colts gave up 30+ on the regular, how many of those 4th qtr comebacks would have happened?
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Are we seriously going to hold it against Luck that when he has the ball last he leads the league in taking his team down the field for the win?
 
infantrycak said:
Yes really. In those two years he had 5 4th quarter comebacks and 7 game winning drives. In 2010 he led the league in game winning drives.
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He may have had some game winning drives, but they were completely different. The Jets were a top 5 defense back then. Those game winning drives were made up of games in which their offense did almost nothing for the majority of the game, mostly due to Sanchez. The guy had 17 TDs and 13 INTs on 54% completion percentage in 2010. He averaged just over 200 yards passing per game. He never sniffed a top 10 NFL quarterback classification. There is a huge difference between Luck and Sanchez, it's pretty clear.

Just look at the difference between those two defenses and tell me which one kept their team in games when their offense stalled for 3 quarters. The answer is pretty clear.
 
You left out Sanchez wore green and white and Luck wears blue and white.

The Colts GM thinks y'all are giving too much credit to Luck (from PFT.com):

Colts General Manager Ryan Grigson held his postseason press conference on Thursday and spent some time on running back Trent Richardson’s disappointing performance after the Colts sent a first-round pick to Cleveland to acquire him in a trade.

Grigson said, via Mike Chappell of the Indianapolis Star, that Richardson fits everything that the Colts want to do on offense and that he played a valuable role for a team that wouldn’t have won 11 games in the regular season and advanced to the divisional round without him.
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infantrycak said:
You left out Sanchez wore green and white and Luck wears blue and white.

The Colts GM thinks y'all are giving too much credit to Luck (from PFT.com):
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Translation:

He is exactly what we want in a runningback, we just need the coaches to work him into our system better. There is no reason to fire me for making that deal for Trich!

07-minister.jpg
 
It's possible that the Jets cut Sanchez this offseason. We should definitely go after him seeing has how he is as good as Luck......:kitten:
 
Playoffs said:
I think we may have in Colts owner Jim Irsay a budding Jerruh Jones... which excites the heck out of those of us who've reveled in Jerruh's GeMtertainment for years now. :ahhaha:
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I applaud Jim Isray and his business acumen. He had enough sense to blow up the team and start over again. Not just the team but his front office too. Cut Peyton, did not resign Freeney and took dead money all in same year, did not mortgage the future. Fired his Head Coach (Caldwell) and his GM (Polian). Hired a new GM and hiring a GM is something Jerah will NEVER DO. So far it has worked out quite well for him. Much better than the 3X 8-8 Jerah Jones.
 
TexansSeminole said:
He may have had some game winning drives, but they were completely different. The Jets were a top 5 defense back then. Those game winning drives were made up of games in which their offense did almost nothing for the majority of the game, mostly due to Sanchez. The guy had 17 TDs and 13 INTs on 54% completion percentage in 2010. He averaged just over 200 yards passing per game. He never sniffed a top 10 NFL quarterback classification. There is a huge difference between Luck and Sanchez, it's pretty clear.

Just look at the difference between those two defenses and tell me which one kept their team in games when their offense stalled for 3 quarters. The answer is pretty clear.
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If you can say this & still believe Andrew Luck has performed above average in the NFL..... I'll say this, then be done with it.

I'm not saying Luck is the next Sanchez, just saying he ain't done nothing yet.
 
thunderkyss said:
If you can say this & still believe Andrew Luck has performed above average in the NFL..... I'll say this, then be done with it.

I'm not saying Luck is the next Sanchez, just saying he ain't done nothing yet.
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8 fourth quarter comebacks, 11 game-winning drives. Thats something for a sophomore.

Im not saying his elite either but his certainly already above average. lets say he ranks somewhere in the 10-13 range of QBs
 
aussie_texan said:
8 fourth quarter comebacks, 11 game-winning drives. Thats something for a sophomore.

Im not saying his elite either but his certainly already above average. lets say he ranks somewhere in the 10-13 range of QBs
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Ok..... I can't bow out.

Where did you rank Sanchez when he was doing the same thing?

Luck isn't being asked to carry that team like you all think he is. The defense is keeping those games within reach, like they did for Sanchez in his first two years. That's how Sanchez got to the AFC Championship game twice.

The Colts may not have a bunch of big names, but they've got enough. Ty Hilton ain't chopped liver & Robert Mathis appears to be somewhat of a badass. They don't have a top 5 defense, or a top 5 running game, but their defense keeps the score low & their run game keeps them in games.

It's all about situations, his team is performing in those situations, ours hasn't been (even though Schaub has been a much better QB statistically (this is the part where you tell me to ignore the stats unless we're comparing Luck to Sanchez))...

Andrew Luck is sooooo good that he inspires his defense to give up less than 22 ppg. Just like Sanchez did for two years.
 
thunderkyss said:
Ok..... I can't bow out.

Where did you rank Sanchez when he was doing the same thing?

Luck isn't being asked to carry that team like you all think he is. The defense is keeping those games within reach, like they did for Sanchez in his first two years. That's how Sanchez got to the AFC Championship game twice.

The Colts may not have a bunch of big names, but they've got enough. Ty Hilton ain't chopped liver & Robert Mathis appears to be somewhat of a badass. They don't have a top 5 defense, or a top 5 running game, but their defense keeps the score low & their run game keeps them in games.

It's all about situations, his team is performing in those situations, ours hasn't been (even though Schaub has been a much better QB statistically (this is the part where you tell me to ignore the stats unless we're comparing Luck to Sanchez))...

Andrew Luck is sooooo good that he inspires his defense to give up less than 22 ppg. Just like Sanchez did for two years.
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Down 28 points. Won.
 
thunderkyss said:
Ok..... I can't bow out.

Where did you rank Sanchez when he was doing the same thing?

Luck isn't being asked to carry that team like you all think he is. The defense is keeping those games within reach, like they did for Sanchez in his first two years. That's how Sanchez got to the AFC Championship game twice.

The Colts may not have a bunch of big names, but they've got enough. Ty Hilton ain't chopped liver & Robert Mathis appears to be somewhat of a badass. They don't have a top 5 defense, or a top 5 running game, but their defense keeps the score low & their run game keeps them in games.

It's all about situations, his team is performing in those situations, ours hasn't been (even though Schaub has been a much better QB statistically (this is the part where you tell me to ignore the stats unless we're comparing Luck to Sanchez))...

Andrew Luck is sooooo good that he inspires his defense to give up less than 22 ppg. Just like Sanchez did for two years.
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So you're saying Andrew Luck is no better, or just as good as Mark Sanchez?
 
Bill Polian just said on PTI that "he doesn't know" if he would take Manziel first overall but definitely thinks he is first round QB. He also briefly talked about how front offices view mock drafts at this time of the year and he pretty much said "we laugh at them" and most teams don't even have a draft board up until April.
 
Dutchrudder said:
So you're saying Andrew Luck is no better, or just as good as Mark Sanchez?
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I'm saying I haven't seen anything to separate Luck from Sanchez's first two years.

I've seen two QBs start their careers in the last two seasons that performed better than the once in a lifetime prospect that is Andrew Luck.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm saying I haven't seen anything to separate Luck from Sanchez's first two years.

I've seen two QBs start their careers in the last two seasons that performed better than the once in a lifetime prospect that is Andrew Luck.
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Whoa, nelly. I have to say that's a very, very bold statement. I disagree. The Jets were a pretty loaded team when they went to the two AFCCG. A great D with Revis playing lights out and an above average running game. Mark Sanchez's play was before he knew he was way in over his head, lol. I give the guy credit on how he handled being thrown to the wolves, but that ran out quick. The Colts have Luck, Hilton, Mathis, and an occasional 3rd down conversion from Fleener (It's comical I thought the Luck/Fleener combo would haunt us for years).

Just skim through the Colts forum. Almost all of them aren't pleased with the new GM. Bjoern Werner, what a terrible 1st round pick. Trent Richardson was awful this year. So far it was a waste of this draft's 1st round pick. LaRon Landry blows. Some OL they signed that I couldn't even remember. Literally the only thing that makes the Colts any good is Luck's ridiculous laser bombs to Hilton. Luck easily has the best long ball in the league. I hope this trend continues for our sake because Luck is surrounded mostly by JAGs.

No doubt Luck has some improving to do, but the rest of the team is just flat out bad. They sure do miss Reggie.
 
Dutchrudder, you did it. Close the thread.

And rmartin65, if you're implying what I think you are, I had the same laugh. Can't write stuff like that.
 
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