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Manziel

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matts290 said:
I gotcha, and I think the perception on RG3 and the trade will vary from person to person. I personally think his rookie season was the best we will see from him. The read-option took the NFL by storm in 2012, but the book is out on it now and it kinda seems like a flash in a pan. Also consider that the Skins made the playoffs in the NFC East, which was a fairly weak division.

Either way, the Skins did do a worst to first deal, but then turned around and did the opposite this year in a first to worst (Texans style). Now they have tons of holes on both sides of the ball, and no first round picks for the next couple years, plus a new coach, and now they are in rebuilding mode without the recourses to do so.

But I am kinda getting off topic here...
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After this yr they will have their 1st rd pick. There is more to the draft than the 1st rd. I hope Allen/Gruden fix the OL. They need an LG/RT just like the Texans. Richardson in the 2nd and Moses in the 3rd would do the trick. They drafted a S that got hurt and Amerson last yr.
 
thunderkyss said:
Don't forget he was drafted by a coach that didn't like him.
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This is calling card/excuse trump card for the enduring VY fanboys.

Doesn't matter he was given numerous chances by other teams and coaches and couldn't make it stick. Jeff Fisher is forever to blame to why VYs NFL career was flushed away like a floater in the toilet.
 
WolverineFan said:
I'm not giving up on him so much as I never thought he was worth it all to begin with. For me, the gap between him and Luck was huge.
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I'm beginning to wonder if Luck is all that .... Yes , the Dolts went to the playoffs but the consensus is that they weren't all that good and despite having some "moments" Luck's statistics weren't all that great.

Completion 60% sure doesn't wow anyone , yards per pass dropped (6.7) from last year while his QBR was 87 which isn't bad .... But Compare those numbers to Schaub since he became a starter and Schuab's were better every year accept this one.
Luck may still get better and Schaub did put up some really good numbers in the past .... but Luck was touted as being a generational talent and I don't think he's come close to those expectations at this point in his career.

That's not to say that I don't agree with the gap between Luck & RG3 as QB's being .... vast. Just that Luck hasn't been all that he was cracked up to be - Another Peyton Manning.
 
Stemp said:
This is calling card/excuse trump card for the enduring VY fanboys.

Doesn't matter he was given numerous chances by other teams and coaches and couldn't make it stick. Jeff Fisher is forever to blame to why VYs NFL career was flushed away like a floater in the toilet.
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Fanboys? I didnt realize we were talking about Star Wars vs. Star Trek here.

There are numerous reasons why VY failed. Just like there were numerous reasons Carr failed. Just because you dont agree with one of the reasons doesn't mean it was not part of the equation.

By your logic it was not being on an expansion team with no talent around him that ruined David Carr, because several other teams and coaches gave him a shot and "couldnt make it stick."
 
matts290 said:
Oakland and Minnesota do not have a second 2014 first rounder though and they are picking even later than Cleveland, so it would require a lot more future round picks. Plus us trading down past Cleveland pretty much says we don't want any of the top flight QBs in this draft, which I in no way see happening.

And NFL front offices don't get their heart set on a player, because they know there is always a chance they won't get him. They are business men, not fans like on a message board.
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I agree that the Rams are the best trading partner and the Browns the second because of additional 1st round picks. But the other's can offer packages to compete. They just have to get more creative.

For example:
Oakland
2014 1-5 1700
2014 2-37 530
2014 3-69 245
2015 first round pick ~500.

Minnesota
2014 1-8 1400
2014 2-40 500
2014 3-72 230
2015 1st ~500
2015 2nd ~200
2016 1st ~200
 
Corrosion said:
I'm beginning to wonder if Luck is all that .... Yes , the Dolts went to the playoffs but the consensus is that they weren't all that good and despite having some "moments" Luck's statistics weren't all that great.

Completion 60% sure doesn't wow anyone , yards per pass dropped (6.7) from last year while his QBR was 87 which isn't bad .... But Compare those numbers to Schaub since he became a starter and Schuab's were better every year accept this one.
Luck may still get better and Schaub did put up some really good numbers in the past .... but Luck was touted as being a generational talent and I don't think he's come close to those expectations at this point in his career.

That's not to say that I don't agree with the gap between Luck & RG3 as QB's being .... vast. Just that Luck hasn't been all that he was cracked up to be - Another Peyton Manning.
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I will give Luck/RG3 2/3 more yrs to have a team built around them before I can make that judgement. I hope whoever the Texans draft/trade for at QB aren't held to these kinds of standards. (Making the playoffs your rookie/2nd yr isn't enough) There is still a lot of team building for the Rick to do. 2-3 yrs worth and I've got huge doubts that Rick is the man for the job.

BTW, The gap between Luck and RG3 isn't as great as it seems. As rookies the both make the playoffs and 1st rd exits. 2nd yr RG3 gets hurt and the Redskins miss the playoffs, Luck stays healthy and makes the playoffs. I would trade 1-1 for either of them today.

I wish RG3's dad would tone it down a little (RG3 probably wishes the same thing) But as a military lifer I have total respect for RG2 and his right to speak his mind in this politically correct world we live in. Afterall he did lay it all on the line for 30 yrs so we all have the right to speak out when we choose too. This might be a NSZ topic.
 
mussop said:
Can't believe people are already giving up on him. I would trade our number one for him right now.
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This is a product of the instant gratification group. I feel sorry for whatever QB the Texans draft, because this type of mentality will be prevalent.
 
steelbtexan said:
I will give Luck/RG3 2/3 more yrs to have a team built around them before I can make that judgement. I hope whoever the Texans draft/trade for at QB aren't held to these kinds of standards. (Making the playoffs your rookie/2nd yr isn't enough) There is still a lot of team building for the Rick to do. 2-3 yrs worth and I've got huge doubts that Rick is the man for the job.
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Luck didn't make the playoffs by himself , football being the ultimate team sport .... You can separate his individual stats from the teams overall success to some degree.
They also had a whole lot of things fall their way and are in a crappy division , Tenn and Jax have been abysmal for several years now & then the Texans fall apart at the seams .... When you can pencil in 5 or 6 W's from within your division , you should make the playoffs.

But with all the hype surrounding Luck , you'd expect him to have put up better numbers than Schaub ... which he hasn't equaled yet other than in the W column.

Another example would be Cam Newton , his statistics have been mediocre but the team won a lot of football games .... mainly due to their improved defensive front while everyone gives the QB all the credit for the W's.
He's in a good situation now but what happens when he's in a situation like Tom Brady this year ..... Can he carry that team ?! I have my doubts.


steelbtexan said:
This is a product of the instant gratification group. I feel sorry for whatever QB the Texans draft, because this type of mentality will be prevalent.
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I definitely don't expect a rookie QB to come in and set the league on fire or even make the playoffs. I pretty much expect a season of sub .500 football .... but after that the expectations rise.
 
Blake said:
Fanboys? I didnt realize we were talking about Star Wars vs. Star Trek here.

There are numerous reasons why VY failed. Just like there were numerous reasons Carr failed. Just because you dont agree with one of the reasons doesn't mean it was not part of the equation.

By your logic it was not being on an expansion team with no talent around him that ruined David Carr, because several other teams and coaches gave him a shot and "couldnt make it stick."
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David Carr has 2 Super Bowl rings. He may not have been a good starter but he at least made a decent career as a backup. Ol VY with all his talent and skills and "he just wins" couldn't even do that.

Most texas fans realize he was a great college qb but just couldn't make it in the pros. The fanboys believe VY is still gods gift to football and the only reason he isn't playing in the nfl is Jeff fisher screwed him, black balled him and made sure young would never come back
 
Marshall said:
I fully endorse this idea of making our interest in various high round draft choices public. We have the only guaranteed selection available and there is no reason we shouldn't be the one receiving all the request for trading up.
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People trade up to maneuver ahead of a team interested in "their guy"

With the #1 overall, no one can move "ahead" of us.

If anyone wants our pick, it will be because they want to get ahead of St. Louis.
 
Stemp said:
David Carr has 2 Super Bowl rings. He may not have been a good starter but he at least made a decent career as a backup. Ol VY with all his talent and skills and "he just wins" couldn't even do that.

Most texas fans realize he was a great college qb but just couldn't make it in the pros. The fanboys believe VY is still gods gift to football and the only reason he isn't playing in the nfl is Jeff fisher screwed him, black balled him and made sure young would never come back
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#1, David Carr has 1 SB ring, not 2. And is that how you rank players? Their number of SB rings as a backup in which he played zero snaps?
 
Blake said:
#1, David Carr has 1 SB ring, not 2. And is that how you rank players? Their number of SB rings as a backup in which he played zero snaps?
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No, but I rank a player who failed as a starter but manages to stay employed as a backup for several years and different teams, including a super bowl winner over a guy who failed as a starter and was brought in and cut from several teams including a couple ones who were desperate for a serviceable backup
 
Corrosion said:
Luck didn't make the playoffs by himself , football being the ultimate team sport .... You can separate his individual stats from the teams overall success to some degree.
They also had a whole lot of things fall their way and are in a crappy division , Tenn and Jax have been abysmal for several years now & then the Texans fall apart at the seams .... When you can pencil in 5 or 6 W's from within your division , you should make the playoffs.

But with all the hype surrounding Luck , you'd expect him to have put up better numbers than Schaub ... which he hasn't equaled yet other than in the W column.

Another example would be Cam Newton , his statistics have been mediocre but the team won a lot of football games .... mainly due to their improved defensive front while everyone gives the QB all the credit for the W's.
He's in a good situation now but what happens when he's in a situation like Tom Brady this year ..... Can he carry that team ?! I have my doubts.




I definitely don't expect a rookie QB to come in and set the league on fire or even make the playoffs. I pretty much expect a season of sub .500 football .... but after that the expectations rise.
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You might talk about the team around Luck and football being a team sport and all but at the end of the day Luck during two years of play has posted some crazy game winning drives. While he might not play a full game it certainly seems that he has been better than avg at closing
 
Corrosion said:
I'm beginning to wonder if Luck is all that .... Yes , the Dolts went to the playoffs but the consensus is that they weren't all that good and despite having some "moments" Luck's statistics weren't all that great.

Completion 60% sure doesn't wow anyone , yards per pass dropped (6.7) from last year while his QBR was 87 which isn't bad .... But Compare those numbers to Schaub since he became a starter and Schuab's were better every year accept this one.
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He took a 2-14 team and went to the playoffs 2 years in a row. Name the talent surrounding him on offense. Wayne, Hilton, and then......? His defense is terrible, his O-Line is terrible, they have no running game, and his best offensive weapon missed the majority of the season with a torn acl. Stats don't tell the whole story. However....

Luck first 2 years....682/1197 (57%) for 8196 with 46 TD's and 27 INT's.

Manning first 2 years...657/1108 (59%) for 7874 yards with 52 TD's and 43 INT's.

Schaub first 2 years...66/134 (49%) for 825 yards with 5 TD's and 4 INT's.

Schaub first 2 years with Texans (4th & 5th career year)...443/669 (66%) for 5284 yards with 24 TD's and 19 INT's.


Corrosion said:
Luck may still get better and Schaub did put up some really good numbers in the past .... but Luck was touted as being a generational talent and I don't think he's come close to those expectations at this point in his career.

That's not to say that I don't agree with the gap between Luck & RG3 as QB's being .... vast. Just that Luck hasn't been all that he was cracked up to be - Another Peyton Manning.
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He may still get better? A 2nd year QB, with almost no surrounding talent, who carried a 2-14 team to back-to-back playoff appearances? I don't think there is any doubt that he will get better, especially if Indy upgrades the talent around him.

And as for the "not living up to Peyton" hype.....Luck has actually been more successful than Manning was to this point in their careers.

Luck = 22-10 (1-2 in playoffs)
Manning= 16-16 (0-1 in playoffs)
 
2012Champs said:
You might talk about the team around Luck and football being a team sport and all but at the end of the day Luck during two years of play has posted some crazy game winning drives. While he might not play a full game it certainly seems that he has been better than avg at closing
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Luck has the most 4th quarter comebacks in the NFL over the last 2 years.
 
All I need to know is Luck's record vs Texans. Pretty much sums it all up & what needs to be overcome. Look at it this way, Manziel as Texan, could be Luck's kryptonite. Now that works for me, how about you?
 
2012Champs said:
You might talk about the team around Luck and football being a team sport and all but at the end of the day Luck during two years of play has posted some crazy game winning drives. While he might not play a full game it certainly seems that he has been better than avg at closing
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It's not even just game winning drives. He routinely comes back from down multiple scores in the fourth.
 
WolverineFan said:
He threw 9 INT's during the regular season on 570 pass attempts.
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It isn't just turnovers. He has stretches where he looks out of sync or inaccurate. He'll tool along at 50% with incomplete drives and then yes clicks and all the sudden he goes 8 for 8 scores a couple times and ends up at 59%. He's erratic. Having said that he clearly looks like the kind of guy who is going to dedicate himself to solving the problem.
 
infantrycak said:
It isn't just turnovers. He has stretches where he looks out of sync or inaccurate. He'll tool along at 50% with incomplete drives and then yes clicks and all the sudden he goes 8 for 8 scores a couple times and ends up at 59%. He's erratic. Having said that he clearly looks like the kind of guy who is going to dedicate himself to solving the problem.
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On a side note he looks like a guy who needs to address his beard situation
 
infantrycak said:
Yeah it is because "if" becomes "IF" in the playoffs.
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WolverineFan said:
He threw 9 INT's during the regular season on 570 pass attempts.
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And 7 in two playoff games this year, which gives him a career total of 27 (16 this year), to go along with 15 fumbles. And than there is this...

infantrycak said:
It isn't just turnovers. He has stretches where he looks out of sync or inaccurate. He'll tool along at 50% with incomplete drives and then yes clicks and all the sudden he goes 8 for 8 scores a couple times and ends up at 59%. He's erratic. Having said that he clearly looks like the kind of guy who is going to dedicate himself to solving the problem.
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Is Luck going to be good to elite in a year or two, I think so. Is he that now? i don't think so. Nor do I think he should be solely lauded for all of the 4th quarter comebacks.
 
Mark Berman ‏@MarkBermanFox26 39m

Stanford coach David Shaw on Johnny Manziel: "He's a jackrabbit. Can't catch a jackrabbit. That's an unteachable skill."

Mark Berman ‏@MarkBermanFox26 20m

Baylor's Art Briles on potential of @JManziel2 in the NFL: "He's a can't miss guy."
 
Texian said:
Mark Berman ‏@MarkBermanFox26 39m

Stanford coach David Shaw on Johnny Manziel: "He's a jackrabbit. Can't catch a jackrabbit. That's an unteachable skill."
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Hopefully Shaw made other positive statements about JFF's ability to play the quarterback position. If all he said was JFF is a jackrabbit, I'm not so sure I take that as a ringing endorsement.
 
infantrycak said:
Seriously would be that was not a normal 2-14 team. They were 1 QB away from a disappointing at 10-6 playoff team.
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Just 1 QB? So any guy could have just stepped in and got them to 10-6? Or did it take a QB with a certain level of skill?

I'm not foolish enough to argue that Luck is an elite QB at this point. But that is not some dream team supporting cast he has around him. The guy might dig a hole now and then that he can't crawl out of, but he has been in the league for two whole years. Plus, he leads the entire NFL in 4th quarter comeback wins during those two years.

If y'all can't see it then I can't help you. It's there. He just hasn't quite put it all together yet.
 
Am I the only one who thinks its odd that O'Brien has only seen Manziel play once or twice? I guess when he's at home he has his hands full, but still found it strange.
 
Texn4life said:
Am I the only one who thinks its odd that O'Brien has only seen Manziel play once or twice? I guess when he's at home he has his hands full, but still found it strange.
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If that is true, I find it very strange, but it sounds like classic "coach speak" to me. Saying that he has only seen Manziel a couple times allows him to dodge any more questions regarding the subject.

I have been a Teddy guy for a few months now, but as I watch and rematch cutups and film on them, and read more opinions across message boards and such, I must say Manziel is really closing the gap for me.
 
matts290 said:
If that is true, I find it very strange, but it sounds like classic "coach speak" to me. Saying that he has only seen Manziel a couple times allows him to dodge any more questions regarding the subject.

I have been a Teddy guy for a few months now, but as I watch and rematch cutups and film on them, and read more opinions across message boards and such, I must say Manziel is really closing the gap for me.
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His home situation is pretty unique so part of me believes it.
 
Texn4life said:
His home situation is pretty unique so part of me believes it.
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Yeah true, and I am sure during the season he wasn't planning on coming to an NFL team where he would be scouting college talent all around the country, so maybe he has only seen Manziel play a couple of times. Still Manziel was the biggest name in college football for two years, and for a college head coach to only have seen him a couple times seems strange.

I heard the interview and he said a couple times "other than on TV" so maybe he meant he has seen Mazniel on TV plenty but never in person.
 
bah007 said:
Just 1 QB? So any guy could have just stepped in and got them to 10-6? Or did it take a QB with a certain level of skill?

I'm not foolish enough to argue that Luck is an elite QB at this point. But that is not some dream team supporting cast he has around him. The guy might dig a hole now and then that he can't crawl out of, but he has been in the league for two whole years. Plus, he leads the entire NFL in 4th quarter comeback wins during those two years.

If y'all can't see it then I can't help you. It's there. He just hasn't quite put it all together yet.
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^^^^
This

He sure seems to like beating his hometown Texans.
 
bah007 said:
Just 1 QB? So any guy could have just stepped in and got them to 10-6? Or did it take a QB with a certain level of skill?
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That's what you took from that? Mmmkay. The point was what was around the QB was not the total crap that is being made out.

If y'all can't see it then I can't help you. It's there. He just hasn't quite put it all together yet.
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Never said anything different. Just saying I am not going to declare he has made it based on "taking a 2-14 team to the playoffs."
 
infantrycak said:
That's what you took from that? Mmmkay. The point was what was around the QB was not the total crap that is being made out.
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I'm not saying that's what you meant but it was a very vague statement. It's not like Luck is just some guy. His talent is undeniable. Is it being overstated by some at this point? Probably.


Never said anything different. Just saying I am not going to declare he has made it based on "taking a 2-14 team to the playoffs."
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If by "made it" you mean elite QB then I agree. If by "made it" you mean he isn't the biggest reason why that 2-14 team is now in the playoffs then I disagree.
 
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