He's a very durable deep threat.
Those kinda guys are valuable.
Wish we could say this about WFV.
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Let's talk about OT Laremy Tunsil.
- Thread starter Mangler
- Start date
He's a very durable deep threat.
Those kinda guys are valuable.
Wish we could say this about WFV.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
And that may very well end up being the case, which means that the trade wasn't very good, which wouldn't surprise anyone. But no matter all that, he's still a much better LT than what we had whether he ends up being worth the price or not.
He's a very durable deep threat.
Those kinda guys are valuable.
Wish we could say this about WFV.
We just got to let that go. It's impossible to say right now if it was worth it or not because it all depends on how this season & next turn out. They didn't trade away two firsts & a third to beat the Saints last night.
To me, they did it to win a Super Bowl & the team I saw last night looked capable of doing just that. The Saints got beat on a similar drive with a blown PI call. That's the NFL.
We still have to wait & see how they build on it. If they go the way they have the last 16 years & play down to their competition, then yeah... we wasted those picks.
But if they play a hurting Jags team the way they played N.O. then again & again... we're going to lose some games. We won't win them all. Got to get to the playoffs. Then make a run for the Super Bowl.
Another embarrassing playoff loss, wildcard, AFCCG, don't matter. It's time to clean house.
But if they truly contend (or win) who cares about two 1st round picks?
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
He'll be even better over time and when Howard is inserted at LG. Kelemete is not the answer as a starting LG and hasn't been since his arrival. Same goes for Martin at C.....but holy crap the team shot it's foot off by extending him with that kind of money guaranteed. This move will blow up badly.
Mangler
Toro de España
Wasn’t smoking anything then, but you’ll change your tone if we lose WFV (like we always do) for whatever amount of time. Stills is a damn good receiver, I’m almost willing to say that he’s a usually always available (healthy) version of WFV and just as fast.
stingray
Hall of Fame
just because a guy doesn’t get hurt doesn’t make him a first round pick automatically. Odel Beckham and Amari Cooper were traded for 1st round picks last year. Are you implying that Stills is in their category?
Mangler
Toro de España
Not implying he’s up there with Odel, maybe Cooper. And, don’t even try to pretend Cooper was this stud before he got to Dallas. Everyone was laughing at Dallas for giving up a 1st for him, but then he went on to play like a WR1. As a matter of fact, yes...I place Stills up there with Cooper. I think we will have a tie at WR2. WFV 2a, Stills 2b.
Dejaview
Wahoo Sabi
Do you really think ANYONE would trade Tunsil for a first rounder only? Do you think finding a “proven” Tunsil at the end of the first next year would be likely? Plus we are getting the benefit of Tunsil this year. So how much do you discount that second first by the extra comp for Tunsil added to the three you gave for Stills?
stingray
Hall of Fame
Im no GM but neither is BOB.. he gave up too much because hes not a legit GM. Stills and Tunsil are worth a1st, a 2nd a 3rd in my opinion, but hey you know what they say about opinions right?
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Nvm
So you're saying Miami would have given us Tunsil & Stills for a 1st, 2nd, & a 3rd?
Now I'm no "draftnik" but I always understood a future pick is equivalent to a current pick one round up. Like this year's 2nd is equivalent in value to next year's 1st.
You see where I'm going with this? You just said Tunsil & Stills are worth a 1st, 2nd, & 3rd.
Well, that's what the Texans gave up. A 2020 1st, 2nd (2021 1st), & 3rd (2021 2nd).
badboy
Hall of Fame
The pick for Stills could be considered a 4th round 2019 (2 nd round 2021).
Very reasonable picks in my opinion
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Tunsil could lead block for Mr. Jingles . Percy would be wiped out at the LOS but Wild Bill can be sneaky so Tunsil better clip him .
I would not have bothered with stills at all if he cost us a pick.
We already have Hopkins and Fuller, Duke is a great receiver, coutee is coming back and our TEs can catch too.
Stills will be gone in two years in free agency.
He was on his way out of there anyway. Mingo was gonna be cut. O'Brien is the donkey at the table.
We already have Hopkins and Fuller, Duke is a great receiver, coutee is coming back and our TEs can catch too.
Stills will be gone in two years in free agency.
He was on his way out of there anyway. Mingo was gonna be cut. O'Brien is the donkey at the table.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
I like stills more then you I guess. Not by much - just more considering our wr health history.
We needed an Lt. You cant get them in free agency and we've proven we cant draft one. Getting one meant overpaying.
I'm more chafed about how mismanaged clowney was and what we got for it.
Don't get me wrong, I like stills. He's a very good player. I just feel he wasn't really a need and since they wanted him gone wasn't worth much in trade
Scooter
Funky
Picks are worth their spot unless someone decides they want it - there is no magical "next year boost", but if I were in charge would certainly take advantage of the idea. One of Belichick's greatest attributes IMO is he abuses that folly year after year. A 3rd round pick is a 3rd round pick regardless of when it happens ... unless some "desperate" wants to make it my 2nd round pick, often paying for the privilege.
Would anyone else have offered what we did? Was anyone else offering at all? The Dolphins are obviously selling, would an experienced GM be able to leverage that fact to take advantage of the Dolphins? Or were we at the mercy of the Dolphins who knew we were in a desperate 'direction' after seeing Luck leave the division, and would do anything to save "our" job by throwing a Madden trade to say "look, I'm protecting our QB!!!".
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Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Stills helps the WR core, but he's a pain the ass to a locker room and to the franchise at some point. Miami basically made the Texans take him off their hands. They also got away with forcing the Texans to take their trash. I'm.not saying he isn't good, but he's a lot more concerned about off the field stuff than he is at playing football and that's why Flores got tires of him really fast and said he wasn't having a good camp there.
Something to keep in mind in terms of present value 2021 1st & 2nd round picks are valued as 2nd & 3rd picks respectively.
You're right about a 3rd rd pick being a 3rd rd pick in any yr.
You think there are teams out there right now that wouldn't have given up a 2019 2nd for a 2018 high 3rd and drafted Reid? The draft is really about player evaluation.
The Texans org was going to have to overpay for a franchise LT either in trade or in FA. They chose to overpay slightly in trade.
They could've just trade a 3rd and their 1st for Dillard, but chose to go in a different direction. They are going to be paying for that decision. The GM that made that decision is gone now though.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Rick Smith, frequently as a GM traded late-round Third day picks to other teams for a round higher the following draft. I think it was a combination of each of the things you mentioned Scooter, lack of a GM, O'Brien being out classed and desperately needing to save his job. Also Miami took advantage of us desperately needing a left tackle. Miami could wait we could not. Same will be true for anyone seeking Minkah Fitzpatrick.
Scooter
Funky
They only drop value if you're not going to be around the next year. I plan on being around for many more years, though my liver may disagree lol. Impatience doesn't make a 4th round pick into a 3rd, especially when you miss on a targeted 3rd rounder because next year came (as it always does) and you only have a 4th.
I think the valuation of a draft pick is where you have one within a particular round. 1.1 is vastly more valuable than 1.32. When teams trade draft picks for a player, they expect to be trading a pick closer to 1.32 than 1.1
cameronkrazie86
Rookie
This is a great point. More job security, less need to do something super risky in hopes of catching lightning in a bottle. Unless you're Belichick, you're always a bad season or two away from the hot seat.
The only person with true job security is the owner. I'd love for it to be an organizational philosophy to trade current year, lower round picks for a year away if it can boost you up another round or two in the draft the following year. Short term it will suck filling holes through free agency but if you repeatedly do something similar every year, you're going to be stockpiling mid round picks and can cash in the chips when you need to or hopefully keep acquiring better depth/future starters.
Except BOB got 4-1 in 2020 and probably 6-1 in 2021 in addition to Stills and Tunsil in the Mia trade.
The 4-1 may be used to move up to the bottom of rd 1 or top of rd 2 if BOB likes a guy he has the ammo to move up in next yrs draft.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Belichick has the advantage of Tom Brady being able to make just about anyone on offense look good and players will take less to play for NE, just look at Brown and the crap he pulled to apparently get there. As far as the Fins go yeah they are selling but its a sellers market. Tunsil's price wasn't going to drop simply because the Fins didn't need to sell him, they could play him this year and then put him on the table next year and get almost as much because proven LTs are becoming as rare as franchise QBs and almost as pricey. As far as other teams go no one needed line help as much as we did because most teams when they get their franchise QB next focus on protecting him and then giving him weapons. We went the Colts route and made Watson a glass cannon, looks of weapons but nothing to keep him from breaking apart.
I don't value draft picks as much as some people, I think a lot of people value them so much because they simply enjoy the draft but overall value the only real advantage a draft pick gives you is a rookie contract. That's great but then you don't know if the rookie is going to be a bust or not and if he isn't he still won't be ready in most cases for 2-3 years. To me a guy like Tunsil, who is proven and very little risk of being a bust, is worth more than his drafted spot because he is now proven and the rough edges has been sanded off so you can throw him out there with less than a week in your system and he still does a better job than what you had last year. You're not just paying for the player you are paying for the time invested in that player as well.
This is where I'd like to see the Texans' roster. Where players like Stills, productive, are low on the depth chart.
That is not where we've been. Loosing Coutee was devastating to this roster last season.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1173961282590072832?s=20
Tunsil: I would trade me for that.
Grier: Ok. Enjoy Houston.
Tunsil: I would trade me for that.
Grier: Ok. Enjoy Houston.
Especially since the Texans didn't sign him long term so that means he'll be the highest paid LT ever soon
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
If Deshaun Watson is paid more than Brady, would that be a problem?
I have no problem making Tunsil the highest paid LT if he is earning it.
That’s how contracts work. There is no escalation factor to keep the best the highest paid. Brady is middle of the pack when comparing contracts. Tunsil may be the top 5 if not better in his position. That’s great to have when you have an asset like Watson.
Pay him.
Is it a problem? Depends. There's a salary cap. So paying guys more than they are worth usually isn't a winning strategy. You're forced to spend less elsewhere, and it's hard to get good talent without the money to pay for it. Not having high draft picks to bring in cheap, high end talent compounds the problem.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Here's the problem, how do you determine worth? We always talk about worth like its the same across the board but its not. Deshaun Watson has huge worth to the Texans, to the Chiefs or Pats however, not so much. Does that mean we shouldn't pay him because his worth isn't the same? Tunsil also has huge worth to the Texans because he solves an ongoing problem. Now you're right you can't pay everyone what they want and you have to look at the overall picture but what a guy is worth is what he does for your team as a whole not just what he can do in the league.
I think it is determined by how much they contribute to winning. So an elite player at a premium position is obviously going to be worth more. And one thing teams like the Astros or pats do is they find market inefficiencies. They'll find cheaper guys who contribute more to winning and avoid expensive guys who the league overvalues.
I don't think a player is worth more because he covers up the flaws of a coach. I wouldn't overpay Tunsil because OBrien sucks at finding and developing OL talent. I'd just fire OBrien instead.
But however you want to value a guy, we should have negotiated an extension before the trade because it would have been cheaper, allowing us to have extra money to spend at cornerback or wherever necessary.
Obviously the chiefs won't pay mahomes and Watson. But the value of mahomes to the chiefs is similar to the value of Watson to the Texans. I expect them to have very similar contract extensions
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You can't compare to the Astros because MLB works completely different than the NFL does and your window of signing guys and winning is much larger. MLB regularly signs guys to 7+ years contracts, can you see anybody in the NFL being offered or even signing a seven year contract? Likewise the Pats are a bad example because BB turns chicken **** to chicken salad all the time. Forget the Texans how many guys go to other teams from NE and completely suck?
I don't disagree that we have not developed the line and that was very short sighted on the part of all the Texans F/O but at the same time before Watson who did we have worth protecting? Now once we got him yeah that should have been our next 5 draft picks and most of the F/A signing but they didn't do that. I don't consider the Tunsil trade overpaying and wouldn't even if BoB was out of the equation. Draft picks are great but say even if we drafted Dillard he wouldn't have helped the team this season and if he busts then not at all. Tunsil is a proven stub that you don't have to worry about being a bust.
As far as the extension goes I wonder if Tunsil himself didn't say no to that. You can't force the guy to sign a new contract and it wasn't like the Texans were going to turn the deal down if he doesn't. If I was Tunsil I wouldn't have signed a new contract and waited till my current one played out then gotten the big money. Again what can the Texans do, go another season with Davenport and let Watson take another step on the road that Andrew Luck paved?
I guess it is possible Tunsil want to sign an extension. There were other options to fix the OL that were cheaper and left us with more resources to improve other parts of the team. Hopefully he is open to a reasonable extension. If we can make him say the third highest paid LT that would be fair.
The worry going forward is how to improve the team with fewer draft picks and most future capspace being allocated to Watson, Tunsil and other impending free agents. Because right now they still aren't very good, not even at OL
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
This I agree with, Watson has a us over a barrel and he knows it, Watt has a us over a barrel and he knows it, Tunsil has a us over a barrel and he knows it. When does Hopkins, renew? Doesn't matter because he also has us over a barrel when he does. Only person that doesn't is Fuller. To bad this isn't the WWE where if a guy misses time for an injury they just add it on to the contract till he makes it up. Fuller would be a Texan for life. I don't like our current salary cap situation and think we are on the highway to cap hell but it is what it is at this point and honestly I'm not sure, without hindsight, what I would have done different.
Texansballer74
The Marine
In today's league the determining factor is other players in their perspective position.
Example: Hopkins contract drove up the bargaining chip for elite receivers a few years ago. Now Julio Jones holds that marker.
2. Goff contract just drove it up for up and coming top level quarterbacks.
3. Elliot just drove it up for running backs. Barkley's contract will be massive.
4. Brown drove it up for top level left tackles. Tunsil will demand to be the highest paid LT.
5. Martin just drove it up lol for below average centers lol.
That's one of the determining factors of worth.
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Right, that’s why I don’t like trading away picks - but overpaying your LT is completely ok. You want to pay players on positions, where you struggle to get players otherwise. Getting a LT was more difficult than getting a QB the last 5 years. You don’t get them in FA (unless you overpay for mediocre talent) and drafting them is difficult plus it usually takes a couple of years for them to find their form.
So don’t overpay a HB or a linebacker, FB, also be wary with WR, DT and maybe secondary outside of true #1CBs. But do overpay for positions like QB, LT, CB1, pass rusher.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Someone call OB and tell him make notes of this post. Better yet - hire the man!
If he stayed healthy & out of trouble he was going to be the highest paid LT ever. Hopefully we'll have someone on the team's side of negotiations who knows how to use the franchise tag when we do cross that bridge.
Exactly.
Scooter
Funky
Do we have the option of franchise tag with Tunsil? Not sure how that works with traded/free agents. From what I can tell his contract jumps to a full 10.35m next year and then he's a free agent - not eligible for any RFA as far as I can tell, but I'm exceptionally ignorant to the details outside of base contracts. Could use some guidance here.
Did we actually leave ourselves open to a baseball type contract of renting a player for a couple years at the cost of two firsts?
I have zero issue paying a great LT if Tunsil proves to be so, cap money well allocated - Duane Brown almost single handedly carried us to competence his last few years here. I very much didn't like using 2 first round picks on one LT, after just spending a first (3 total) on the second best in the draft. Unless someone tells me that we have financial control over Tunsil past next season, the trade goes from biased acceptable failure based on my favor of the position, to O'Brien and everyone within a mile of Belichick's tree gets fired, and billboards demanding Cal to sell the team.
Did we actually leave ourselves open to a baseball type contract of renting a player for a couple years at the cost of two firsts?
I have zero issue paying a great LT if Tunsil proves to be so, cap money well allocated - Duane Brown almost single handedly carried us to competence his last few years here. I very much didn't like using 2 first round picks on one LT, after just spending a first (3 total) on the second best in the draft. Unless someone tells me that we have financial control over Tunsil past next season, the trade goes from biased acceptable failure based on my favor of the position, to O'Brien and everyone within a mile of Belichick's tree gets fired, and billboards demanding Cal to sell the team.
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So much for winning the cap championship.
Wish I could like this post a thousand times.
You have to pay the premium positions top dollar and LT is a premium position.