Kareem Jackson's plight.

[76Texan]

Note that in last two frames QB appears to have committed to runnoing or throwing towards Jackson's side and FS Wilson's back remains toward that area of field where WR will take KJ.

I dont think I catch your point.
That was still the early stage of the play.

If you continue to watch the series of screenshot, you will see that Wilson dropped back just past the 35 yard line.
That was where he was still in good position.
At that time, Rivers still had the ball.
Just as in the game against the Raiders, Rivers is very good at "looking off" the safety.
He baits Wilson into thinking that he will go with the crossing route.

 

[Rey]

Here's Dunta in cover 2 vs the Titans in 09.

Which guy played the coverage better (stretching their underneath zone)?
Dunta or Jackson?

Which safety played the coverage better?
Wilson on Justin Gage or Nolan on Gaffney?

The guy stood looking near the yard marker was Dunta. He was only 9 yards from the LOS.

The whole sequence can be found here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums... vs Broncos/Dunta in cover 2 vs Titans in 09/

Dunta played it better. He was closer to his man and he forced the qb to make a really tough throw.

Kareem was terrible an undrafted FA burned him. Just about any qb could have completed that pass and just about every qb did.

 

[Rey]

I also presented the safeties in these plays as they were.
I look at what their job assignments were and whether they were able to fullfill them.

On the R. Williams play, for example.
It was a one-receiver route with Wilson lining up on that side.
If a safety cannot provide any form of help in that instance, thre's no other conclusion that can be drawn other than he failed utterly at his job.
)

So nevermind that Jackson got his ass handed to him at the Los.

Pretty sure Eugene wasn't expecting Kareem to slip and fall and allow such a quick throw.

A more talented safety probably could have prevented the td but once again you are missing the elephant in the room which is Jackson was awful on the play.

 

[76Texan]

WIll you explain this? Two different types of corners.

i am not saying a safety will never help out Aso but it is well known that Asomugha can take care of one side of field by himself. Yes, he will make some bad plays any any player will but most plays you can roll both safeties away from his side offering more strength to Harris.

Both Jackson and Harris play the same type of coverage in college (pattern matching).
They both play out of the backpedal or turn and run.

Harris split time between CB and nickel (against slot receivers whose speed and size are not the same as a wide-out.)
If you watch Jackson at Alabama, he was your description of Aso at the collegiate level.
Jackson never lost a foot race against the collegiate receivers he faced.
It's been awhile and I don't have my notes, so I can't remember if Harris ever did (I think he did).
Basically, I saw Jackson sticking with the receivers a little better than Harris.
Jackson played help defense (when he comes off his man to help another receiver) a little better than Harris.
Jackson gets off blocks to support the run quite better than Harris.

That's why I say I saw Harris as Jackson's younger brother.

Why do you think they are two different type of corners?
Maybe I missed something!?!

In about 8 games that I watched Aso, he wasn't on his own any more than we saw of Jackson (as of my estimate).
I never saw the Raiders play zero coverage (no safety help).
The Texans did.

 

[76Texan]

Dunta played it better. He was closer to his man and he forced the qb to make a really tough throw.

Kareem was terrible an undrafted FA burned him. Just about any qb could have completed that pass and just about every qb did.

What are you talking about.
The guy running with Gage was Wilson.
Dunta was standing around near the down marker.
He was at most 9 yards from the LOS.

 

[76Texan]

So nevermind that Jackson got his ass handed to him at the Los.

Pretty sure Eugene wasn't expecting Kareem to slip and fall and allow such a quick throw.

A more talented safety probably could have prevented the td but once again you are missing the elephant in the room which is Jackson was awful on the play.

Quick throw?

1. There was contact between CB and receiver.
That's always give the safety more time than a free release.

2. R.Williams slowed down and reached back to catch the pass.
That ought to give the safety more time.

3. It was a single receiver route.
You can never tell me that a safety is allowed not to be anywhere near the receiver on such a route.

4. As a CB, even as you try to avoid the receiver to get away with an offensive PI, sometimes they still do.

5. I don't get it; I can't see how you can't read your own writing and didn't see that you're not objective.
I was, as I had presented that Wilson's late reaction might have been due to the fact that he saw the Center crossing the LOS illegally to block Diles way before the pass was thrown, and therefore, he may have read "draw, screen, what the heck, he passes the ball, where's the flag?"

 

[thunderkyss]

Did you watch the video with sound off?

Must be, 'casue you certainly missed what the announcer was saying:
"Troy Nolan beaten on the play."

Also, there's no specific rule in cover two that the CB has to bump the receiver.
Quin certainly didn't bump the receiver.
And by the way, Jackson lined up at least 7 yards away from the LOS, any kind of bump will be a penalty.

Another note for you: In cover 2, the safety can never be found closer to the LOS than the CB.

Yet another note for you, based on your definition, Dunta was a turtle; he was a mile away from the receiver.

Was that cover 2?

The tight-end started on the outside, Jackson had him. Gaffney was in the slot, looked like Nolan had him..... It looked like man to me.

When the tightend motioned to the RT, Jackson came to get Gaffney, Nolan should have switched to the TE.

Doesn't look like Nolan switched. Gaffney ran right past both Jackson & Nolan......

There are probably a couple of things that should have happened or could've happened on that play. Regardless, there is no reason for KJac to allow Gaffney to run past him when he sees he has no help.

I don't know if that is evidence of lack of talent, or lack of speed. for all I know, he got caught up trying to tell Nolan to back up & go to a cover 2 shell....

 

[thunderkyss]

Dunta played it better. He was closer to his man and he forced the qb to make a really tough throw.

Kareem was terrible an undrafted FA burned him. Just about any qb could have completed that pass and just about every qb did.

What? This is the picture where KC throws the ball. Dunta is at the top of the screen, with no one around him. He has no affect whatsoever to any throw to any Titan, because he is not around any Titan.

This is Dunta half assing it.

This is the receiver catching the ball around the 10 yard line. That's Wilson covering him.

Dunta is at the top of the screen shot, to the left......... by himself.

He ran with the receiver all of 3 yards then released him.

 

[76Texan]

He fell down plenty on the grass field in Reliant.

Hopefully he continues to make the improvements that were starting to show at the end of last yr.

Do you keep track of the times Jackson fall down?
I'm not sure I saw a lot of it.

The R.Williams play, he slipped because Williams pushed on the back shoulder and then pulled on the arm.

In the Giants game, I know there was a bubble screen in which he stepped inside Pollard and his man. I will take a much more detail look, but I'm pretty sure that as he made a change of direction while staying low to the ground. He put a hand on the ground in the proccess, which is a technique; I don't think he slipped.

There was one play I know he fell dwn on his own, but get right up (maybe the Oakland game, maybe on a run by Mcfaden.) It wasn't a big problem as the other guys; it was a run.

I don't keep track of them; there might be one or two more?

At any rate, I've seen other guys slip on their own.
Quin at least twice for sure, Allen at least twice (in just 7 games).
I've seen McCain slipped, Pollard slipped, Wilson slipped.

I'm still not sure what was the big deal with this.
Personally, I think it was just a good joke that caught on like wild fire.

 

[76Texan]

Was that cover 2?

The tight-end started on the outside, Jackson had him. Gaffney was in the slot, looked like Nolan had him..... It looked like man to me.

When the tightend motioned to the RT, Jackson came to get Gaffney, Nolan should have switched to the TE.

Doesn't look like Nolan switched. Gaffney ran right past both Jackson & Nolan......

There are probably a couple of things that should have happened or could've happened on that play. Regardless, there is no reason for KJac to allow Gaffney to run past him when he sees he has no help.

I don't know if that is evidence of lack of talent, or lack of speed. for all I know, he got caught up trying to tell Nolan to back up & go to a cover 2 shell....

It was cover 2, 5-underneath zones, with a 4-man front.
Based on this formation and also the fact that the announcer said "Troy Nolan beaten on the play".
We can tell that Nolan bit the run fake and vacated his two-deep zone.
That can be the only reason for the announcer to say so.

 

[76Texan]

 

[Lucky]

Based on this formation and also the fact that the announcer said "Troy Nolan beaten on the play".
We can tell that Nolan bit the run fake and vacated his two-deep zone.
That can be the only reason for the announcer to say so.

Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

 

[thunderkyss]

Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

I agree with this. Even if Nolan screwed up, it doesn't take a genius to see Nolan isn't on top... Kareem tried to run with Gaffney & didn't.

I understand the root cause of the failure may be that Nolan bit on the run fake. But with Kareem there & Gaffney running right by him... he waved his hand knowing that Jackson couldn't run with him. He was even with Kareem & knew he had him beat.

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's absurd.

Just like Mario's first year, you had several people picking Mario's game apart, because sacks were few & far between. But if you watched Mario play, you knew he was everything we were told he was supposed to be. Just because he wasn't getting sacks had 0 to do with his talent & ability. He needed to learn a little bit more to play at this level & he needed some help.

I agree this play is not a good play to break down & say, "see the safety was out of position."

& just because the coaches are calling Kareem out is no different than them calling Mario out.

Kareem wasn't sold to us as a shut-down cover corner. That's not what he is, & may never be. Doesn't mean he won't be a very good corner in this league.

 

[76Texan]

I agree with this. Even if Nolan screwed up, it doesn't take a genius to see Nolan isn't on top... Kareem tried to run with Gaffney & didn't.

I understand the root cause of the failure may be that Nolan bit on the run fake. But with Kareem there & Gaffney running right by him... he waved his hand knowing that Jackson couldn't run with him. He was even with Kareem & knew he had him beat.


I wouldn't necessarily say it's absurd.


I agree this play is not a good play to break down & say, "see the safety was out of position."

Coming out of a cover 2 shell and a 5-underneath look against a WR and a TE on that side, I definitely don't see man coverage from Nolan when he stayed that far away from the LOS.

Either the Texans stay with cover 2 or they can go with cover 4 on that side,
If the latter is the case, Jackson had the outside, Nolan had the inside.
It still remained Nolan's responsibility.

Notice that the bottom of the video, they also charged it to Nolan.
The video is by the NFL network, most likely from their weekly Replay format.

In the regular brodcast, the announcer didn't assign any responsibility to anybody. The commentator was ex-QB Steve Berluein, and he didn't have a specific comment either.

In the NFL Network Replay, those NFL guys had time to go through the game to do their analysis before they show the replay a few days after the actual game.

 

[76Texan]

Another reason for the announcer to say that would be that Nolan was the closest Texan to Gaffney on the play. He's an announcer. Not the defensive coordinator. Nolan could have had man coverage on the TE, but dropped back when the TE stayed in to block. You nor I really know. Jackson was never playing underneath, but tried to run with Gaffney the entire play.

Your constant defense of Jackson is absurd. Kubiak, Smith, and Phillips have mentioned Kareem specifically as a player who must improve. He'll get another chance. If Jackson becomes a corner on a par with Revis and Asomugha (as you've alluded to), then great. No one is holding their breath while waiting for that to happen, however. And the Texans should bring in a top veteran CB, just in case Jackson "falls down" once again.

Every rookie must improve. I never heard of any coaches saying otherwise.
It's absurd for anybody to think that a guy should stay the same as his rookie year.

I never hint to Jackson's becoming a great CB; I only repeat what his coach said and what Rex Ryan said.
My opinion has alwyas remained the same.
I see Jackson as a solid, all-around CB.
I don't know how far he can take his game to; I never make any prediction for Jackson so please stop with that non-sense, thank you!

 

[Rey]

What are you talking about.
The guy running with Gage was Wilson.
Dunta was standing around near the down marker.
He was at most 9 yards from the LOS.

Looking at this stuff on my phone.

But I don't see how that helps you. Doesnt even look like he was supposed to be in that play. Looks like be had some kind of shallow zone.

You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.

It's lime you seem to think that anytime a ball is thrown there should be a safety and a corner both in position on the wr. Safeties have other things to do besides back up corners. A corners job is tough because they are asked to be out on an island by themselves so often. That's why good corners are so valuable.

You still have failed to address the simple point that I have mentioned: even if there is supposed to be safety help, too often Kareem is not even within playmaking distance of his man.

So that means that even if the safety is in position to help him it's still a one on one opportunity for the receiver. Kareem got left behind too often.

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

 

[76Texan]

Looking at this stuff on my phone.

But I don't see how that helps you. Doesnt even look like he was supposed to be in that play. Looks like be had some kind of shallow zone.

You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.

It's lime you seem to think that anytime a ball is thrown there should be a safety and a corner both in position on the wr. Safeties have other things to do besides back up corners. A corners job is tough because they are asked to be out on an island by themselves so often. That's why good corners are so valuable.

You still have failed to address the simple point that I have mentioned: even if there is supposed to be safety help, too often Kareem is not even within playmaking distance of his man.

So that means that even if the safety is in position to help him it's still a one on one opportunity for the receiver. Kareem got left behind too often.

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed

I really do appreciate your detailed response.

I understand and can see where you're coming from.

All we can do is to take a look of each seperate play and try to guess as to what the defense was trying to do. (But that goes for both you and I, and everybody else.)

At the end of the day, everything lies on the shoulder of CB.

I will find time respond to the bolded part, on a play by play basis soon as I can.

 

[76Texan]

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

Actually, I had provided many of those answers, but it seems that you missed them.

A few are as followed:

1. On the Steve Smith play, it was an outside release, so basically, the CB is on his own.
Kareem jammed the receiver and turned to run with him.
Smith put a hand on Jackson's helmet to push him away (we both know that it was offensive PI.)
Kareem continued to follow the receiver and made the tackle.
What else do you think he can do?

2. On the Galloway's play, the ball was caught on the hashmarks.
If there was a safety in the middle, that play can never happen (but the Texans played with 10 men onthe field.)
Galloway knew that if he ran straight for the ball, Jackson would be right there to put a hit on him so he ran a little bit to the inside and leaped up to the outside and make the catch over his outsie shoulder.
Kareem was in striking distance to the receiver.

 

[76Texan]

What exactly did Kareem do to make the safeties better and make it harder for passes to be completed?

The R. Williams play was an illegal forward pass as the Center crossed the LOS to block Diles before the pass was thrown.

Kareem jammed Williams on an inside release (that's help to the safety).
He lost the battle due to an illegal maneuver by Williams.
Sure, he needs to learn to overcome all these nasty tactics by receivers, but it wasn't like he didn't try.
Due to his own tactics, Williams had to slow down a tad and needed to reach back to make the catch (that ought to buy the safety some more time.)
Jackson stumbled due to Williams' tactics but he never gave up on the play.

On a one-receiver route like this, Wilson has got to be able to come over to somehow at least slow down the receiver a little.
If he was able to do that, Jackson would have been able to come back and help make the play.

That pass should have gone for at most a 20-yd gain.

 

[Rey]

Actually, I had provided many of those answers, but it seems that you missed them.

A few are as followed:

1. On the Steve Smith play, it was an outside release, so basically, the CB is on his own.
Kareem jammed the receiver and turned to run with him.
Smith put a hand on Jackson's helmet to push him away (we both know that it was offensive PI.)
Kareem continued to follow the receiver and made the tackle.
What else do you think he can do?

2. On the Galloway's play, the ball was caught on the hashmarks.
If there was a safety in the middle, that play can never happen (but the Texans played with 10 men onthe field.)
Galloway knew that if he ran straight for the ball, Jackson would be right there to put a hit on him so he ran a little bit to the inside and leaped up to the outside and make the catch over his outsie shoulder.
Kareem was in striking distance to the receiver.

Receivers and db's tussle and hand fight all the time. Again, Kareem is going to have to start winning more of those battles.

Hopefully he will learn how to combat some of that stuff with more experience.

And I'm not saying Kareem was never in play making distance. What I'm saying is that too often he wasn't.

Kareem gave up a lot of big plays.

I think when you are defending Kareem you are going against peoples views of what they expect from a first round corner.

You don't expect them to look as bad as often as Kareem did. Pointing out that others made mistakes around him doesnt change that fact.

Even if we concede that some of the plays where he looked bad were primarily someone else's fault, he still has a lot of other bad plays.

 

[76Texan]

On the Gaffney's catch, again, the pass was caught on the hashmarks.

Kubiak said that they were in quarter (cover 4); I just remember having it in my notes from his presser.
A pass on the hashmarks is the responsibility of the inside man (Nolan).
That's right through the heart of his zone.

 

[Rey]

Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was not fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

 

[76Texan]

Even if we concede that some of the plays where he looked bad were primarily someone else's fault, he still has a lot of other bad plays.

That is exactly why I want to go over them on a play by play basis.
I haven't gotten through all of them yet.

I never said he didn't have bad moments.
In fact, I did say that!

And even some time ago, when another poster (before Lucky) brought up the other TD to Arijotutu (a 28-yarder, I believe), I admitted right away that it was all Jackson's.

On the 55-yarder, I did say that Jackson wasn't able to squeeze the route because he had to make a baseball turn from the shuffle. It was still on him despite the fact that he wasn't helped by the technique.
If Wade doesn't change how he wants his CBs to play, we will never see the shuffle again.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

 

[76Texan]

Even the Galloway play shows some of his limitations. He was not fast enough. Ok you say we were shorthanded, but does that mean we can never blitz a safety? Can he never be in one on one coverage?

He was simply fooled by a veteran receiver who knows exactly where the ball was going; Jackson still wanted to make the play.
If he wanted to go for the PI like Hayden over Walter, he could have done that easily.

No, he didn't make the play, but again, it wasn't like he wasn't there and wasn't trying.

A CB gets beat by a good throw and good catch quite often, wouldn't you say?

 

[76Texan]

If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

I agree.
With a safety blitz, more often than not, we can see the CB work to turn the receiver toward the side line.
The coverage most likely will be different.

 

[Rey]

If you blitz a safety, the coverage is different and hopefully you get some pressure on the QB.

On that particular play, we were playing with 10 men on the field. KJ was expecting the safety to be in the right place but there wasn't a safety at all. He did his assignment and then got blamed for something totally out of his control.

None of that matters.

He was in one one on one coverage and he got beat.

The safety doesn't have to be blitzing he could be doubling up on someone else. No extra pressure but you're still expecting Jackson to be able to man up on his assignment.

Look people around you are going to screw up. That's not a reason for you to get beat.

Either a reciever is beating multiple people, one person, or he was left wide open. Jackson was the only one holding the receiver he got beat. He didnt have help for one reason or another. And be got beat.

If I'm to believe 76 that Jackson can see where his safeties are during the play then I fully expect for him to know whether or not the safety that is supposed to be giving help is on the field pre-snap.

 

[76Texan]

None of that matters.

He was in one one on one coverage and he got beat.

The safety doesn't have to be blitzing he could be doubling up on someone else. No extra pressure but you're still expecting Jackson to be able to man up on his assignment.

Look people around you are going to screw up. That's not a reason for you to get beat.

Either a reciever is beating multiple people, one person, or he was left wide open. Jackson was the only one holding the receiver he got beat. He didnt have help for one reason or another. And be got beat.

If I'm to believe 76 that Jackson can see where his safeties are during the play then I fully expect for him to know whether or not the safety that is supposed to be giving help is on the field pre-snap.

It was another one-receiver route.
If there was a safety, he can only be doubling up with Jackson.

 

[Rey]

He was simply fooled by a veteran receiver who knows exactly where the ball was going; Jackson still wanted to make the play.
If he wanted to go for the PI like Hayden over Walter, he could have done that easily.

No, he didn't make the play, but again, it wasn't like he wasn't there and wasn't trying.

A CB gets beat by a good throw and good catch quite often, wouldn't you say?

Yes I agree. Which is why I can give him the leeway of having been a rookie corner.

But even for a rookie corner he looked bad overall. of course he did some good things. Of course he wasnt helped by the overall lack of talent in the secondary and on the defense period.

But there are quite a few instances where you can flat out see him getting beat, outrun, or getting bullied by bigger receivers.

 

[thunderkyss]

You are making huge assumptions about these plays and I think your narration has been for the most part wrong.

You think you know where players are supposed to be and what they are supposed to be doing, but defensive coaches call all kinds of combinations of plays.

Defense involves a lot of guessing. You want to anticipate what the offense is going to do and you may leave yourself vulnerable in one area to try and make yourself stronger somewhere else.

So even if you are looking at the coverage and it doesn't make sense to you, we dont know what the coordinator was thinking right there. Like if there is only short yardage to go (which appears to be the case on the dunta play) you might play your corners in the flats to take passes to that area away. You are gambling that the offense is going to take a short throw.

This goes both ways. You're saying it looks like Dunta was supposed to be in a short zone & that makes sense.

At the same time, 76 tells us what he thinks the Corner & the safety is supposed to be doing.

His takes are just as viable.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

None of that matters.

He was in one one on one coverage and he got beat.

The safety doesn't have to be blitzing he could be doubling up on someone else. No extra pressure but you're still expecting Jackson to be able to man up on his assignment.

Look people around you are going to screw up. That's not a reason for you to get beat.

Either a reciever is beating multiple people, one person, or he was left wide open. Jackson was the only one holding the receiver he got beat. He didnt have help for one reason or another. And be got beat.

If I'm to believe 76 that Jackson can see where his safeties are during the play then I fully expect for him to know whether or not the safety that is supposed to be giving help is on the field pre-snap.

Um. No.

In the coverage he was running, his job was to take away the outside and the safety's job was to take away the inside. The safety wasn't there. KJ did his job. He took away the outside. He didn't get beat.

He was standing at the line concentrating on his man. He wasn't looking back behind him to verify that the safety was where he was supposed to be. That's not what he's supposed to do.

"Safety help" doesn't mean that the corner's job is to smother the receiver and take away the whole field and maybe get a little help if things aren't all peaches and cream. "Safety Help" means that it's NOT pure man-on-man. "Safety Help" means that the safety has a responsibility regarding that receiver. It's a double team situation IF that receiver does certain things. And in this case, the receiver DID one of those certain things but because the safety wasn't there, he didn't do his job.

It's like blaming Mario for not taking away a gap that Amobi was supposed to take care of. Part of team defense means doing your job and not trying to take care of other people's jobs as well. You have to trust the rest of the guys to do their jobs. In this case, KJ did his job and trusted the safety to do his... but the safety didn't hold up his end of the bargain.

 

[76Texan]

When I have time, I'm going to post the pass from Collins.
It was the two-man route that we spent a lot of time discussing

In that play, all three parties invloved played it right:

Jackson less than 3 yards from his man; he was in position to defend the play.

Quin coming over on a drop-kick call and was ready for an INT (as Collins threw the ball too far inside; ie. Jackson squeezed the route well.)

Nolan let the crossing route go free (he anticipated that Collins will go deep as Collins did not put on any fake of any kind) and came back;
too bad, Nolan deflected the ball and the receiver caught it.

 

[Rey]

It was another one-receiver route.
If there was a safety, he can only be doubling up with Jackson.

Another assumption. You have no idea what a defensive coordinator as his players to do.

Safety could double up or than can be asked to key on a rb if the coordinator is protecting against a screen.

My point is that there could be any number of reasons where Jackson has to cover one on one. If you want to argue that be was expecting help and it threw him off a bit then I can respect that.

But I don't see how he is not aware of whether or not a db is missing from the field pre snap. It's possible.

 

[76Texan]

Another assumption. You have no idea what a defensive coordinator as his players to do.

Safety could double up or than can be asked to key on a rb if the coordinator is protecting against a screen.

My point is that there could be any number of reasons where Jackson has to cover one on one. If you want to argue that be was expecting help and it threw him off a bit then I can respect that.

But I don't see how he is not aware of whether or not a db is missing from the field pre snap. It's possible.

Remmber the Chris Johnson play in 2009 where nobody was on him?

 

[The Pencil Neck]

My point is that there could be any number of reasons where Jackson has to cover one on one. If you want to argue that be was expecting help and it threw him off a bit then I can respect that.

There may be a zillion reasons and times when Jackson has to cover one on one. This just wasn't one of them.

He played the coverage he was supposed to play. He didn't make a mistake. He didn't play poorly. The play succeeded because we were playing 10 on 11.

But I don't see how he is not aware of whether or not a db is missing from the field pre snap. It's possible.

Think of where he lines up and what he's looking at. He's not looking back behind him to see if there's a safety there. He's focused forward on the receiver. Unless someone yells at him to tell him that there's no safety, he has no way of knowing.

 

[Rey]

Um. No.

In the coverage he was running, his job was to take away the outside and the safety's job was to take away the inside. The safety wasn't there. KJ did his job. He took away the outside. He didn't get beat.

He was standing at the line concentrating on his man. He wasn't looking back behind him to verify that the safety was where he was supposed to be. That's not what he's supposed to do.

"Safety help" doesn't mean that the corner's job is to smother the receiver and take away the whole field and maybe get a little help if things aren't all peaches and cream. "Safety Help" means that it's NOT pure man-on-man. "Safety Help" means that the safety has a responsibility regarding that receiver. It's a double team situation IF that receiver does certain things. And in this case, the receiver DID one of those certain things but because the safety wasn't there, he didn't do his job.
.

Your idea if safety help is flawed.

Safety help doesn't mean you have your own personal protector over the top. He's going to take one route away and you just worry about the rest. No.

Often times a safety is looking at multiple routes. He supposed to position himself the best way possible to make a play on the ball. Good safeties do this more often than not by instincts, speed, film study ect. .

As a corner you can not always expect the safety to be right there over the top. It's just not going to happen that way. Sometimes the safety is doubling with you, but if he's just in a deep zone the he may not be right with you when the ball is thrown because he's looking at multiple things.

Too often if the safety wasn't with Jackson he got beat. That's not acceptable. You have to win some of those one on one battles.

 

[76Texan]

Your idea if safety help is flawed.

Safety help doesn't mean you have your own personal protector over the top. He's going to take one route away and you just worry about the rest. No.

Often times a safety is looking at multiple routes. He supposed to position himself the best way possible to make a play on the ball. Good safeties do this more often than not by instincts, speed, film study ect. .

As a corner you can not always expect the safety to be right there over the top. It's just not going to happen that way. Sometimes the safety is doubling with you, but if he's just in a deep zone the he may not be right with you when the ball is thrown because he's looking at multiple things.

Too often if the safety wasn't with Jackson he got beat. That's not acceptable. You have to win some of those one on one battles.

I hate to say this, but Rey, you keep on generalizing things while all we're doing here is to look at each play seperately.

The Galloway play was a one-receiver route.
If there was a deep safety, what do you expect that safety to be doing?

 

[Rey]

There may be a zillion reasons and times when Jackson has to cover one on one. This just wasn't one of them.

He played the coverage he was supposed to play. He didn't make a mistake. He didn't play poorly. The play succeeded because we were playing 10 on 11.



Think of where he lines up and what he's looking at. He's not looking back behind him to see if there's a safety there. He's focused forward on the receiver. Unless someone yells at him to tell him that there's no safety, he has no way of knowing.

presnap DBS do a lot of communicating. If all he is doing is focusing on the receiver how is be getting the playcall?

Often times the safeties are the ones making adjustments for the secondary since they can see more.

Like I said it's possible that he didn't know. Still not a reason to get beat on a deep ball when you have one on one coverage. Yes It's a tough cover, but he was not able to to it.

If you are only effective when you have deep safety help or when the safety plays it exactly right then you are not an asset. As a corner you have to make some plays when you are left one on one. Kareem got beat more often than not when he was forced into those situations. He was not talented enough to go out and make some plays in those situations.

 

[76Texan]

presnap DBS do a lot of communicating. If all he is doing is focusing on the receiver how is be getting the playcall?

Often times the safeties are the ones making adjustments for the secondary since they can see more.

Like I said it's possible that he didn't know. Still not a reason to get beat on a deep ball when you have one on one coverage. Yes It's a tough cover, but he was not able to to it.

If you are only effective when you have deep safety help or when the safety plays it exactly right then you are not an asset. As a corner you have to make some plays when you are left one on one. Kareem got beat more often than not when he was forced into those situations. He was not talented enough to go out and make some plays in those situations.

Well, then answer me why Hayden played the outsde the way he did (against Walter).
And why Asomugha played way to the outside the way he did? (Raiders/Chargers)

Neither of them was expecting help over the top?

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Your idea if safety help is flawed.

Safety help doesn't mean you have your own personal protector over the top. He's going to take one route away and you just worry about the rest. No.

Often times a safety is looking at multiple routes. He supposed to position himself the best way possible to make a play on the ball. Good safeties do this more often than not by instincts, speed, film study ect. .

As a corner you can not always expect the safety to be right there over the top. It's just not going to happen that way. Sometimes the safety is doubling with you, but if he's just in a deep zone the he may not be right with you when the ball is thrown because he's looking at multiple things.

Too often if the safety wasn't with Jackson he got beat. That's not acceptable. You have to win some of those one on one battles.

CBs shade their coverage based on where they have help and IF they have help.

If a CB is getting safety help over the top, that means that he has to take away the underneath. If a CB is getting safety help on the inside, that means he has to take away the outside. If a CB is playing straight up man, he's got to be on the guy like glue.

Plays are designed to pull that safety in lots of different directions. But once the ball is in the air, the safety has to be able to respond and take care of his responsibilities.

In the play we're talking about, KJ had safety help to the inside and he played it that way. It wasn't his job to take away the inside.

 

[Rey]

I hate to say this, but Rey, you keep on generalizing things while all we're doing here is to look at each play seperately.

The Galloway play was a one-receiver route.
If there was a deep safety, what do you expect that safety to be doing?

I think you are missing my point with generalizing is that these individual circumstances don't matter because

1) we have no real clue what the defensive coordinator had a player doing on any given play and can only guess based on how it looks to us

2) when for whatever reason you deem Kareem was left one on one (bad call, player messed up, player next to him sucked, wr pushed him, he was expecting something that wasn't) he grossly underperformed in those situations.

A corner will be left one on one by the sheer nature of the position. Just like the LT.

Just because he is expecting the te or rb to help him out on his man doesnt mean he is ok if he lets his man get through to crush the qb. Not sure how you are not seeing that basic fact.

You are at a position that is hard. You are at a prime position. You need to man up and make some things happen or you're going to get beat Everytime the circumstances aren't perfect.

 

[76Texan]

I think you are missing my point with generalizing is that these individual circumstances don't matter because

1) we have no real clue what the defensive coordinator had a player doing on any given play and can only guess based on how it looks to us

2) when for whatever reason you deem Kareem was left one on one (bad call, player messed up, player next to him sucked, wr pushed him, he was expecting something that wasn't) he grossly underperformed in those situations.

A corner will be left one on one by the sheer nature of the position. Just like the LT.
Just because he is expecting the te or rb to help him out on his man doesnt mean he is ok if he lets his man get through to crush the qb. Not sure how you are not seeing that basic fact.

You are at a position that is hard. You are at a prime position. You need to man up and make some things happen or you're going to get beat Everytime the circumstances aren't perfect.

I get your points.

You still haven't anwer me what Hayden and Aso were supposed to be doing in those plays I mentioned.

Also, answer me why Weddle stayed back to protect Jammer on the two passes to JJ and Casey.

 

[Rey]

CBs shade their coverage based on where they have help and IF they have help.

If a CB is getting safety help over the top, that means that he has to take away the underneath. If a CB is getting safety help on the inside, that means he has to take away the outside. If a CB is playing straight up man, he's got to be on the guy like glue.

Plays are designed to pull that safety in lots of different directions. But once the ball is in the air, the safety has to be able to respond and take care of his responsibilities.

In the play we're talking about, KJ had safety help to the inside and he played it that way. It wasn't his job to take away the inside.

No.

That is called double coverage. If a safety is playing in a deep zone he's looking at more than one route. There is no such thing as inside help unless the safety is doubling up on your man.

If a safety is in a medium zone then he's playing the zone and not your man. He's there to provide support, not have you pass your man off to him because if the receiver runs past the "inside help" then he's going to be open anyways.

If the safeties job is to follow the receiver even after he crosses his area then he's playing man.

If he's just in a zone then Jackson will be beat after the receiver crosses. You don't rely on your help. You use it but you are not excused if it fails you.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

No.

That is called double coverage. If a safety is playing in a deep zone he's looking at more than one route. There is no such thing as inside help unless the safety is doubling up on your man.

I consider that absolutely incorrect.

But that doesn't matter.

If you want to use the words that way, fine. We'll use your definitions.

In your vernacular, it was supposed to be double coverage with the safety picking up the inside half and the safety wasn't there.

 

[76Texan]

Here's something I found that is quite specific concerning the 2-man route vs cover 3.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Inside-the-playbook-Cover-3.html

"The corners must maintain outside leverage and use the free safety to their advantage. If they get beat to their outside, they have no help to rely on. That is why they use zone technique (back to the sideline) and widen with any vertical release to protect the sideline.

The free safety is the top of the defense. He must honor his responsibilities and not chase any intermediate routes. Offenses will run a deep dig (15-yard square in) to entice the free safety to jump the route — while running a post from the opposite side of the field, leaving the corner naked and playing from outside in with zero help. A classic Cover 3-beater."

Any kind of crossing route works the same as the dig route.
As I mentioned before, the only way the deep safety can step down on the intermediate route is to have the off-side CB to take over the post.

I will show a few more 2-man route.
On an 86-yd TD by Jennings (Packers) against the Dolphins earlir this yr, you will see that the on-side CB V. Davis plays exactly the same way Aso, Hayden, Mathis, or Jackson played.

They all have to protect the side line.

 

[Rey]

I consider that absolutely incorrect.

But that doesn't matter.

If you want to use the words that way, fine. We'll use your definitions.

In your vernacular, it was supposed to be double coverage with the safety picking up the inside half and the safety wasn't there.

Just saw this, but I dont think you understand what in saying.

If a corner is in man and a safety is in zone the safety is not playing one route, so therefore he can't be any one corners "inside help".

He's playing his zone and reading the qb.

Which brings me back to my original point. If a corner is playing man coverage on a receiver it's never acceptable to get beat and not be within range of the guy they are holding.

The purpose of a safety helping out a corner is to force double coverage. The safety is not supposed to completely bail the corner out.

Kareem was beaten so bad on plays last year that even if a safety would have been in position it'd still be a one on one play.

Safeties are reading the play as a whole. They aren't supposed to be a cb's personal guardian.

 

[76Texan]

Kareem was beaten so bad on plays last year that even if a safety would have been in position it'd still be a one on one play.

The only play that I can think of is the 28-yd TD by Arijotutu.

So far, the plays I've been talking about in this thread all belong to the category of safety help was expected!

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Just saw this, but I dont think you understand what in saying.

If a corner is in man and a safety is in zone the safety is not playing one route, so therefore he can't be any one corners "inside help".

This is where you make your mistake.

He's playing his zone and reading the qb.

Which brings me back to my original point. If a corner is playing man coverage on a receiver it's never acceptable to get beat and not be within range of the guy they are holding.

The purpose of a safety helping out a corner is to force double coverage. The safety is not supposed to completely bail the corner out.

Kareem was beaten so bad on plays last year that even if a safety would have been in position it'd still be a one on one play.

Safeties are reading the play as a whole. They aren't supposed to be a cb's personal guardian.

What I'M saying is that in this coverage, the corner is playing the outside of the receiver and expecting the safety to cover the inside IF the ball is thrown to the receiver there. It's not a pure man to man coverage for the corner.

The safety is supposed to be sitting back there and:
1) be aware of the receivers in his zone
2) be aware of where the QB is going with the ball.

When the ball leaves the QBs hands, that safety has to judge where it's going and if it's going to someone in his zone, he needs to get there. This is why QBs like to look the safeties off -- so they're out of position to provide help.

If the pass is going to a receiver running down the hash marks, it's his job to take away the inside passing lane. If it's going to a receiver over the middle, it's his job to converge there. If it's going to a receiver underneath, it's his job to come up.

But his responsibility vis-a-vis that seam is to take away the inside while the CB takes away the area OUTSIDE the hash-marks.

You can tell if the CB is playing this sort of coverage by how he plays the receiver and how he tries to direct the receiver. And in a lot of these instances where KJ is getting blamed for bad man-to-man coverage, he was playing it expecting inside help and not getting it.

Now.

It could be that this is a miscommunication between him and the safety. Or it could be that the safety was screwing up. Or it could be a mistake on his part.

The reason 76 Texan posted so many of these videos was to show OTHER corner backs in the same type of coverage, shading the receiver on one side and more or less pushing the receiver to the safety help.

So it's not a pure man-to-man situation. And it's not a pure double team situation. It's a HELP situation.

 

[76Texan]

The only play that I can think of is the 28-yd TD by Arijotutu.

So far, the plays I've been talking about in this thread all belong to the category of safety help was expected!

Edit: The only plays that I can think of are the 28-yd TD by Arijotutu and the 6-yd TD on a back shoulder fade to Hakeem Nicks.
(And of course, if you want to add the catch by S. Smith, you can.)

 

[76Texan]

Thanks, TPN.

Here's the Jennings TD against te Dolphins.
This one is interesting, so I will post the whole sequence here:

The play-side CB is V. Davis, a first rounder from 2009.
You will see how far off he was from the receiver late in the route (like Aso.)
Jackson was never that far off.

The off-side CB is Allen; and I maintain that Allen didn't play it right.
This is cover 3, not cover 1 and man-under.
Even if it was cover 1, Allen didn't play it right either, because he was very far from his man (just like Quin in the play I posted previously.)