infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Here is a portion of FSU's code of conduct. It's in the state administrative code so you can look it up but it takes you to a pdf. All offenses are determined by preponderance of evidence.
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Jamies Winston Qb Florida State
- Thread starter badboy
- Start date
Here is a portion of FSU's code of conduct. It's in the state administrative code so you can look it up but it takes you to a pdf. All offenses are determined by preponderance of evidence.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
BYU has a different standard than Florida State. One encourages chastity while the other ridicules it.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
95% of sex on campus would then be against code because that percentage of students are under the influence by 8 pm. But who is the victim when both parties are under the influence? Are both guilty of having sex with the other while under the influence? In practice, it usually is just a way to make the guy accountable for a morning after regret, even when he is just as drunk as the gal.
It's just another acceptable double standard like:
Minorities can't be prejudiced.
Men are responsible while drunk but women aren't.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Good for you, you found another example of being the poor abused white man.
It's not a double standard - only 1 has a penis and only 1 has a vagina and never will the 2 be the same.
But I was just supplying some of the code of conduct so people could stop going back and forth on what it might be in comparison to BYU.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Watch out for those finger pointing back at you. Jealously guard the Prime Victim mentality. Life is tough. It's not just tough for minorities, women and perverts.
NCTexan
Veteran
Do you really think so?
My issue is that even if the rape/sexual assault didn't happen he wasn't smart enough to avoid the spotlight for doing undeniably stupid stuff after he was accused of it. A smart person would lie low at that point and not continue to break laws and school policies.
I don't trust him to stop doing stupid ****.
markn
All Pro
His upside is so high, if you think there's a chance he can grow up then you have to take it. I think he's potentially elite.
The allegations against him are awful, but so are those that Roethlisberger has lived with. Ultimately, if he's been convicted of nothing, and you think he can control his future behavior then you have to take a chance.
My prediction is that others will come to the same conclusion I have and he won't fall to us.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Pretty much agree 100% with this. I've already bet money with several people that he is a top 2 pick.
What do you say to people who might compare Jameis Winston to Ej Manuel?
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I'd say it's a terrible comparison.
Winston throws the ball like an elite qb. Manuel doesn't and never did.
jaayteetx
All Pro
How bout Jamarcus Russel and Winston?
I was thinking more in terms of preparation for the NFL. They both come out of the same system. Ej Manuel "looked" like a first round pick coming out of college.
I think that's a very fair comparison.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Guess it depends on who you ask. I was never a fan of Manuel or geno.
I too am interested in Seminoles take being an Fsu guy.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I don't think Russell was nearly as passionate about football at any point.
I could see Winston getting fat if he doesn't remain serious though.
markn
All Pro
At this point any outcome is possible. But given his potential upside, I'd bite your arm off if you offered him at 1.16. He could be a complete failure and contribute nothing to the franchise (as it appears this year's 1.1 might-but that's the luck of the draw), he could be a JFF stylee off-field disaster, he could vanish into mediocrity like so many others, or he could fulfil his promise and become the elite pro qb this franchise needs.
I'm a gambler: show me another route to stardom and I'm all ears. But right now, if this kids falls to us, I count my blessings that others have ignored him, then I take him in a heartbeat. I wrap him in cotton wool, I put a team of minders on him, I surround him with the best professionals I can pay for, I delve into his past looking for a positive role model and I handcuff them together. I lock him in a room studying film, teach him the system, and if he's a success, I keep him grounded. Just maybe he fulfills his potential and becomes the elite qb that finally makes us a genuine contender for years to come.
If it all goes tits-up, then I've wasted 1.16 just like I wasted 1.1 the year before, and I carry on with the motley crew of journeyman has-been, never-will be quarterbacks that are my only other alternative, and I hope for 9-7 and a bunch of results to fall the right way so I can stumble into the wildcards and get humiliated against the first real opponent I face.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
But it's all moot, he won't last to 1.16.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I think Winston gets drafted really early, maybe even top five. But I think it's a mistake. And I don't think that because of his off-field history. Based on everything I've heard and read, he didn't rape that girl. He does have some other incidents but nothing major.
His play on the field is what holds me back. Based on the things that I look at he does not project as a good NFL QB. Yes, he's big. He's athletic. He's strong and has a great arm. But that's just window dressing. Time and time again people fall in love with that stuff but it's not the stuff that matters.
I've been saying for months that he reminds me of JaMarcus Russell. And it's because of the way he plays QB. Forget the off-field stuff. He plays in a friendly system surrounded by studs against competition that just doesn't match up. He's not consistently accurate. He doesn't read coverage. He throws to his first read on most every play. If you force him to his second read I'm not sure he is even a 50% passer. If you force him passed that he is screwed. He just throws it in the direction of someone wearing the same color as him and hopes the guy catches it. He's careless.
I don't think he's as stupid as people think he is. I think he can be coached. And he looks to be a great leader and teammate. But his on-field decision making is terrible, and I don't know that you can fix that.
His play on the field is what holds me back. Based on the things that I look at he does not project as a good NFL QB. Yes, he's big. He's athletic. He's strong and has a great arm. But that's just window dressing. Time and time again people fall in love with that stuff but it's not the stuff that matters.
I've been saying for months that he reminds me of JaMarcus Russell. And it's because of the way he plays QB. Forget the off-field stuff. He plays in a friendly system surrounded by studs against competition that just doesn't match up. He's not consistently accurate. He doesn't read coverage. He throws to his first read on most every play. If you force him to his second read I'm not sure he is even a 50% passer. If you force him passed that he is screwed. He just throws it in the direction of someone wearing the same color as him and hopes the guy catches it. He's careless.
I don't think he's as stupid as people think he is. I think he can be coached. And he looks to be a great leader and teammate. But his on-field decision making is terrible, and I don't know that you can fix that.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
This was my opinion back before the 2013 draft:
I was never high on EJ as an NFL player. The difference between the two is pretty significant. The biggest difference is in their confidence to make throws and come back from mistakes. EJ played safe and if he made a mistake, would go into a shell. Winston is never afraid to throw the ball anywhere and even when it gets him in trouble, he bounces back as if it hasn't bothered him in the slightest. Winston is better at everything except being a model citizen. EJ was an excellent role model and always did and said the right thing.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I hear what your saying bah, but I disagree. I think Winston helps those guys look like studs. Florida state wasn't doing a lot until Winston got there. And it's not like they are running a system like a&m or Oregon where the reads are simple and you have a lot of "this or that" plays.
It's more prostyle and Winston is sitting in the pocket making reads. As far as competition you can only play who you play.
Last season they dismantled duke. Duke went on to give am all they could handle in the bowl game. They beat auburn in the title game...an sec team that a lot of people picked to win. A team that went toe to toe with bama and won in the end.
I see more big Ben in him than Russell. I don't think Russell ever really gave a damn and he seemed to rely on pure ability rather than a feel for the game or anything else.
I think Winston has a much better sense of how to be a qb and lead a team.
It's more prostyle and Winston is sitting in the pocket making reads. As far as competition you can only play who you play.
Last season they dismantled duke. Duke went on to give am all they could handle in the bowl game. They beat auburn in the title game...an sec team that a lot of people picked to win. A team that went toe to toe with bama and won in the end.
I see more big Ben in him than Russell. I don't think Russell ever really gave a damn and he seemed to rely on pure ability rather than a feel for the game or anything else.
I think Winston has a much better sense of how to be a qb and lead a team.
TexansFTW
Veteran
What are we talking about here? Do any of yall actually believe he is gonna slide to #16? Cmon yall, we are better than this.
The ONLY way that happens is if he gets arrested and shows ZERO remorse after it in his press conference he will be forced to give by his agent, but no one is that stupid. He's gonna go off the grid for 4 months working out like a maniac only coming back on the grid to do some charitable act for a poor kid that get's televised. He's a good athlete and is gonna impress at the combine and he's going in the top 5.
Zero chance he is a Texan. And there would be zero chance if he magically dropped to us that we would pass on him. I thought this guy was the truth after the 2013 season, but I'm not so sure now after seeing 2014, but what I will say is that you simply don't pass on a QB of his talent if your biggest need on a football team is a QB, even if it potentially sets you back 4 years.
This dude is a Ten. Titan come 2015 season. Bortles, Winston, Luck, Mallett - Your starting 2015 AFC South QBs.
I won't go JMR, but I agree with all of what you've said here and it's really disappointed me that he did not evolve his game from 2013 to 2014. I thought this guy was gonna be the truth. At least he keeps his poise in the 4th, those game winning drives are a good trait. I see too much Kaep in him myself, can't climb a pocket consistently and go through progressions. He does show flashes of it from time to time though, but fails to repeat it consistently.
The ONLY way that happens is if he gets arrested and shows ZERO remorse after it in his press conference he will be forced to give by his agent, but no one is that stupid. He's gonna go off the grid for 4 months working out like a maniac only coming back on the grid to do some charitable act for a poor kid that get's televised. He's a good athlete and is gonna impress at the combine and he's going in the top 5.
Zero chance he is a Texan. And there would be zero chance if he magically dropped to us that we would pass on him. I thought this guy was the truth after the 2013 season, but I'm not so sure now after seeing 2014, but what I will say is that you simply don't pass on a QB of his talent if your biggest need on a football team is a QB, even if it potentially sets you back 4 years.
This dude is a Ten. Titan come 2015 season. Bortles, Winston, Luck, Mallett - Your starting 2015 AFC South QBs.
I won't go JMR, but I agree with all of what you've said here and it's really disappointed me that he did not evolve his game from 2013 to 2014. I thought this guy was gonna be the truth. At least he keeps his poise in the 4th, those game winning drives are a good trait. I see too much Kaep in him myself, can't climb a pocket consistently and go through progressions. He does show flashes of it from time to time though, but fails to repeat it consistently.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I don't get the opinion that he can't read the field and go through progressions. I see him do it every game.
TexansFTW
Veteran
I definitely see him do it too, just not consistently. One play I say to myself, that guys the future face of NFL QBs, then the next I don't understand what the knucklehead was thinking.
He definitely shames Mariotta in this debate though, that's for sure. Mariotta is more Kaep than Jameis is.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Agree, top 5 easy.
Russell was a drug addict. There's a particular set of personality traits that go along with that that controls.
Agree, not stupid nor slow minded. I'm most interested in his potential for having an impulse control diagnosis. Would explain a lot of the reported behaviors. It'll be months before the league/teams start their psych testing/profiling. Surprised to say I'll be interested to see Nawrocki's hatchet report on him.
TexansFTW
Veteran
lol, the great Nawrocki, who declares QBs destined to fail because of their non-genuine smiles.
I think you're remembering Florida State wrong. They weren't national title contenders, but just a step away. Ej Manuel was springboarded to the first round because of it. Several people thought Florida State would contend with Winston, because they were pretty solid with Manuel.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Florida state has been on the fringe for a while. I didn't say they sucked.
I'm just saying, with Winston they elevated to another level.
Maybe not solely because of him, but he'd certainly a huge part of it.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I'm quoting you because I am responding to the ideas that you raised in your post but this is really directed at the entire group. I'll preface this post by apologizing if it gets to ten paragraphs or more because I could go on and on forever when it comes to football...
A ton of people disagree with me and I accept that. But I will still stand by my own evaluation over what others have to say. Most of the time I will be right, and there will be times when I am wrong. Sometimes my stances will seem outrageous and totally against consensus but I feel that my track record speaks for itself. However, I have no problem eating crow. I would have drafted Brian Brohm over Matt Ryan the year that they came out. It happens.
I am actually pretty familiar with Fisher's offense and it is indeed a pretty simple system. His passing game ideals are actually borrowed from Mike Leach. They only run about six different passing plays, but they run them from multiple formations with multiple personnel groups to make them look different. I actually think this is fantastic. The idea is that it is more efficient to run six different plays perfectly than to run twenty different plays at a slightly above average level. They run these plays from under center so that they don't have to dictate pass or run based on alignment. They also leave the whole field open in the running game. When you line up in the shotgun, unless you have a running QB you give away half the field in the running game, because the RB lines up next to the QB and not behind him.
Now, because they line up under center and use traditional formations people confuse this with being a pro style offense. It is not. It is far too simplistic and NFL defensive coaches would destroy it. But in college it works, because the huge majority of college defenses are forced to be simplistic in nature, not by design but by necessity. They can't hide and have to show their hand. Fisher uses this against them.
I said all that so that I could say this. Yes, Florida St does run a simplistic system offense. It's not the same as the spread Oregon runs or the air raid A&M runs, but it is a simple QB friendly system. The passing plays are intentionally designed to go to a certain receiver and that guy is almost always open. Winston has gone through progressions before but not consistently. In a game where he throws 30 passes he may look past his first read a maximum of 6-8 times. That absolutely will not happen in the NFL. And he struggles greatly when he does have to move past that first read.
Winston obviously does make his teammates better but I think that what gets left out is that his teammates make him look better as well. His offense is absolutely stacked with guys who are going to be playing on Sunday. The most notable example would be that Rashad Greene has been open on nearly every passing play for the last two years and yet Winston gets almost all the credit for every catch Greene has ever had.
And Florida St was doing just fine before Winston got there. They weren't winning national titles but Fisher was turning the ship around and they had already been competing at a high level. In the three years that Fisher was OC they were 23-16. In his first three years after taking over for Bowden they went 31-10. And in the year before Winston took over they won the ACC and the Orange Bowl. Now, Winston clearly put them over the top and I would never try to diminish what he's done at the college level. But it's not like he took some dead program and dragged them on his back to a national title. Only Alabama has had higher rated recruiting classes since Fisher took over. This is a loaded team.
Winston is a fantastic college QB. And if they win the title again he'll go down as one of the best ever. But when looking at prospects too many people focus on all the things that don't matter instead of the things that do.
I project guys as NFL players. For me, Winston fails in many key categories. It's nothing personal against him. But I think he is going to have significant problems with accuracy and turnovers in the NFL.
If he makes it work, I will be the first one on here to stand up and admit that I missed it.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Wasn't trying to change your mind. Just throwing my thoughts out. I respect your opinion like everyone else's.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I respect yours as well. I actually tend to agree with you more often than I do with most on here.
Taking such a drastic stance against a guy that 99% of people think is a slam dunk sometimes makes me feel like I have to justify why I think what I do.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
I'm more interested in the complete police blotter on these guys that he published, but I had no issue with NN's characterization of Cam's personality. It fit. Doesn't =success/failure. Here's what he had on another prospect...
Suspect intangibles not a leader by example or known to inspire by his words. Carries a sense of entitlement and prima-donna arrogance seeking out the bright lights of Hollywood. Is known to party too much and is drawn to all the trappings of the game. ... Has defied the odds and proven to be a great college-system quarterback, but still must prove he is willing to work to be great, adjust his hard-partying, Hollywood lifestyle and be able to inspire his teammates by more than his playmaking ability.
These reports are similar to but not as extensive as what circulates amongst every team on every prospect. NN just gave the general public peek behind the curtain. I think it's harmful, but I want to know what they know.
TexansFTW
Veteran
Good info. Thanks.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Now this is a guy that excites me. (In a manly, football appreciation type of way.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Fantastic post bah007. MSR.
The consensus around here (Bucs land) is that the Bucs are going QB with the #1 pick. The rumor is they are already in love with one of them. Is that Mariota? Probably, but I wouldn't rule out Winston.
One thing to keep in mind is they either one can decide to not declare for the draft. Mariota may not want to play for Lovie Smith or the Bucs and decide to stay in school one more year. I can't see Winston staying in school but you never know.
From a Bucs fan perspective right now I am leaning towards Winston. I just think his game translates better to the NFL. Despite what people think the guy isn't stupid as I brought out before, at least from a book smart perspective judging by his GPA. His teammates respect him and he is a leader on the field. Everyone around here tends to agree that if it wasn't for the off field antics Winston would be a no brainer. So the gamble is if he is going to grow up.
I honestly haven't seen enough of Mariota to have a strong opinion of him. I like what I hear about his level of professionalism and work ethic. What scares me about him is that he turns out to be one of those guys that thrives in his college system where receivers are always wide open, then gets to the NFL and flops. I am hearing professional opinions that this won't be the case however that is out there.
If both come out I think they go 1 and 2. From a Texans fan perspective I hope the Bucs take Winston too. I don't want this guy on the Titans. I would rather take my chances with Mariota going there.
So as Texans fans, which one would you honestly rather see end up in Tennessee?
One thing to keep in mind is they either one can decide to not declare for the draft. Mariota may not want to play for Lovie Smith or the Bucs and decide to stay in school one more year. I can't see Winston staying in school but you never know.
From a Bucs fan perspective right now I am leaning towards Winston. I just think his game translates better to the NFL. Despite what people think the guy isn't stupid as I brought out before, at least from a book smart perspective judging by his GPA. His teammates respect him and he is a leader on the field. Everyone around here tends to agree that if it wasn't for the off field antics Winston would be a no brainer. So the gamble is if he is going to grow up.
I honestly haven't seen enough of Mariota to have a strong opinion of him. I like what I hear about his level of professionalism and work ethic. What scares me about him is that he turns out to be one of those guys that thrives in his college system where receivers are always wide open, then gets to the NFL and flops. I am hearing professional opinions that this won't be the case however that is out there.
If both come out I think they go 1 and 2. From a Texans fan perspective I hope the Bucs take Winston too. I don't want this guy on the Titans. I would rather take my chances with Mariota going there.
So as Texans fans, which one would you honestly rather see end up in Tennessee?
TEXANRED
Texan-American
Hell no.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
I kinda agree at this point.
Plus, I'd be very concerned for the welfare of young girls in Nashville will both Mettenberger and Winston prowling.
TexansFTW
Veteran
Neither scare me. Buys us another 4 years to not worry about them, just like the Jags with Bortles.
I think Mariotta can hurt us much worse though cause after you get past our first line of defense (JJ Watt), everything behind him is mediocre at best, and running QBs eat us alive if JJ Watt isn't eating them up first. We don't have the LBs necessary to contain Mariotta unless Cushing starts to look like pre-Injury (HGH) Cushing. So if I had to choose I'd rather Winston go to Tenn, but it's close.
Hope he goes to the titans. He's an immature moron. Rape allegations plural, theft, the Burger King incident, the cafateria incident, the two pellet gun incidents and the no show for a hearing. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree either. His father has put out some great quotes.
All that aside, when is the last time a QB three 17 INTs and went top 5? I wouldn't draft this guy at all, in any round.
All that aside, when is the last time a QB three 17 INTs and went top 5? I wouldn't draft this guy at all, in any round.
That should be etched in bronze, and stamped across every draft fanatic's forehead.
TexansBlood
The CUSH!
lmao. repped
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
No means no: https://vine.co/v/Ow3le0bLvu5
Yep, Winston to the Tacks for me.
Hopefully the LB problem is rectified in the draft. Paul Dawson is a guy I really like. Smart guy who wraps up and covers very well. I've got him in the 2nd/3rd rd.