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JaDeveon Clowney
- Thread starter Marcus
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Part of the CBA that player can request it and team has to pay.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
As the ranking member of the Rick Smith Sunshine Club, I have something to say about this:
* Tex and others have a valid argument. It doesn't mean they will be proven correct. It doesn't mean they don't have some self-serving, alterior motive. When a DE, who is widely touted as a once in a generation talent, plays an entire final college season with almost no tangible production and is also not fully endorsed by his college coaches, it is natural to have concerns about his "heart" or "motor" (or whatever you want to call it)... Then, to essentially miss the entire season from a mild looking non contact injury that occurred in week one... is evidence to support those concerns.
I am hopeful that we will laugh at these concerns in a couple years... but I am not confident we will.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Some folks understand common sense and logic, clearly you're one of those folks.
Until you find out he has to have two surgeries to fix it. IF Andrews said that a few more weeks of bed rest & he'll be right as rain, or "rub a little dirt on it" Then I'd say the evidence supports those concerns.
But when a second doctor comes in & say, "dude, them Texas doctors did you no favors & the Texans medical staff were in cahoots."
At worst, you've got an incomplete grade on "motivation"
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Agreed... However, my issue with the Texans' organization is that the #1 overall pick better be someone you KNOW loves football and is committed to the team. I would not take a chance, other than at the QB position, on a guy (when you literally can have anyone on the menu) that you aren't sure about, in regards to his effort/love of the game. There's simply no reason to take that kind of gamble...nor does it make sense to gamble on a guy with health issues, but I can't beat that horse anymore (the Texan medical staff has been awful for 13 years).
Are you suggesting that Clowney is jaking it? And Dr. James Andrews is in cahoots? Where's the evidence for that? Do you have the MRIs?
How do you know Clowney does or doesn't love football based off of this injury marred season? There are some monumental reaches by people bashing Clowney/the Clowney selection.
Truer words were never spoken. Everyone here is just guessing and trying to make their opinions the only facts whereas no one knows what is in Clowneys heart or mind.
MEGA SWATT
All Pro
Whàt a mess:kubepalm:
aaaand what makes you think that the "brain trust" (blame who you like) charged with making these physical assessments (that have proven time and time again to be suspect at a minimum) would be any more proficient at making accurate psychological predictions regarding something as unscientifically definable as "heart"??
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
JCs future can ONLY be assessed as uncertain. His first year production is abysmal. But one abysmal season isn't something which precludes an outstanding career.
The desire to say, "I told you so." is easily more powerful than common sense. I should know.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I am not suggesting that Clowney is faking it, nor do I wish to bash Clowney. I do know that a knee with a meniscus tear or some cartilage damage can be played on. I am not suggesting it is wise to do so, and it is unfortunate that the Texans' medical staff is untrustworthy. However, I believe there are a lot of football players that would have played more effectively on that knee and would have been more determined to player earlier and play more snaps.
In the end, the fact that Clowney is aware of his body and didn't push the knee may end up saving/extending his career (hard to know given the lack of information), which is great for the Texans. Still, it is not crazy to be concerned about his desire and attitude. Possibly, I am reading way too much into this.... but I was very uneasy with his lack of production in his last collegiate season and never heard an explanation that eased that uneasiness.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
aaaand what makes you think that the "brain trust" (blame who you like) charged with making these physical assessments (that have proven time and time again to be suspect at a minimum) would be any more proficient at making accurate psychological predictions regarding something as unscientifically definable as "heart"??
My lofty opinion of Rick SMith... and Bill O'Brien does.
What have Smith/BOB done to give you this opinion?
Winning big games on the road against the best teams? LOL
Or possibly the Texans medical staff screwed things up again and Andrews confirmed that Cloqwney's knee is more screwed up than originally thought. How much more damage Clowney was doing to his knee is up for debate, but 1 thing is for sure, Clowney was doing more damage to his knee or Andrews wouldn't have shut him down.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Bada Bing! Bazinga!
Not necessarily. Perhaps the conclusion was made just to give him another month of time to recover from the surgery, then do his rehab and just generally prepare for the 2015 season. And the Texans coaching staff probably feels that at this time, at the end of the 2014 season, Clowney is not any better than Mercilus and the depth they have on their roster at that position.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
After the surgery from Andrews right?
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Hall of Fame
I wonder who will be doing the surgery?
I thought Andrews did the surgery last week.
Troy Chapman
Rookie
So has a 2nd surgery occurred yet? Did Andrews do it? Or was Andrews just a consult?
I thought the "time to clean it up" was code for surgery.
Texian
Hall of Fame
According to O'Brien, Clowney will have surgery sometime in the future and that's all you need to know. O'Brien said there would be NO further announcements about who, when or where.
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Playoffs
Hall of Fame
This.
And no MRIs will be released and the surgery will not be live-cast on FoxSportsSW.
But we know what's being done, and we'll find out more. JD and those around him will talk. And JB's source on Texans training staff will leak it, too.
So they have a website they want me to click on, tickets to buy, events to attend, open practice to watch, twitter feeds to follow, pro bowls to vote on and games to watch but don't ask about SURGERY on the #1 over all draft pick. All this does is deflect negative criticism.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
If you don't get the answers you want, you have the option of not buying anything.
Since JD has now been officially IRed, I fail to see the harm in Billy releasing more info about JD, matter of fact it seems like it would be a smart move by the organization to be totally transparent about this stage of JDs journey. And it's not just bout being fans, because while many seem downright gleeful about JDs problems, others like myself genuinely like the kid and want to know the basics about his surgery, like you would any friend. Not like they'd be releasing sensitive data on players that could be scouted by the opposition for Sundays upcoming game.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Maybe the doctor who performed the 1st surgery left his ring in there....
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
or a Junior Mint.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Spare me with this stuff Mussop. The thread speaks for itself. We talked about this stuff for like 9 months, and we haven't gotten a thing out of Clowney when we had the #1 draft pick. I didn't have to fall for any BS.I't was a shaky pick, and there isn't a thing that anyone can dispute about that at this point. Reasons and explanations be damned, we got zero production out of that shaky pick, and that's the bottom line.
If we had drafted Bortles, he wouldn't have played at all this year. We would be 7-6 right now (most likely) & the story would be that Borltes couldn't beat out Fitz. We still would have gotten nothing from our first round pick.
Given that we got Mallett for a seventh two drafts from now, Bortles would have been running our scout team for most of the year.
Given that we got Mallett for a seventh two drafts from now, Bortles would have been running our scout team for most of the year.
That's one scenario. Another is that Mallett isn't a Texan and Bortles comes in after the bye week a little bit better prepared than how he was thrown in at Jax.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Translation#1a.......missed it first time around.
Translation#1b.......created a problem secondary to decision to pursue the approach they did to the meniscus
It is obvious that O'Brien did not think Bortles could run his offense. Otherwise, Bortles would have been picked 1.1.
Best case Doc, what did they miss? A torn ACL?
Leaving the question open - was O'Brien correct? We will never know for sure, but maybe Bortles's career trajectory will give some hints in the coming years.
And maybe Clowney will play a few games so he can be evaluated too.
TheIronDuke
All Pro
They're very refreshing.
Not necessarily.
What I get from what OB has done since he got here & reflecting on the Patriots... That QB isn't that special.
Don't get me wrong, Tom Brady is as special as they come, but Matt Cassel won 11 games for them when Brady went out. He won 10 games in KC with Charlie Weis. & Fitz is on the verge of a 10 win season.
If he thought Bortles could be that special, he'd have taken him 1.1, but if he didn't think he was "Tom Brady" special, he could get a guy in the fourth that could "run the system"
That much, I think, is obvious.
The team is bigger than the individual & Tom Brady embodies that day in day out on the field & off.
If that's the case, then why didn't O'Brien just keep Case Keenum and T.J. Yates?
Cassel won 10 games that season, but also had a HoF caliber WR in Randy Moss, a HoF head coach, and a HoF caliber QB helping him.
And let's be clear about Fitzpatrick. He's won 6 games this season. You are counting eggs that have not hatched, and even if they do win the last three, that's only 9 wins this year for Fitz. Mallet won the Browns game.
That's a whole lot of words just to come to the conclusion that you agree with my original point.
You're assuming that the pick was "his" to use. If McNair came to him and said "I really like this kid from my Alma Mater, can we get someone later that'll work?", what do you think BoB's answer is going to be?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Torn ACLs and other collateral ligaments are usually quite easy to determine on MRI.........and certainly in combination with arthroscopy. Meniscus injuries are also usually easily diagnosable on MRI (medial somewhat easier than lateral).........the lateral meniscus tears that may be missed on MRI are usually picked up on arthroscopy.............unless, concerning both menisci, they are a recurrent injury (drops to ~60%).........unless an MRI arthrogram in addition to plain MRI is obtained (As I pointed out early in the case of Ed Reed's missed labrum tear, the Texans did not do a hip MRI arthrogram, which I said needed to be done to rule out the tear........they then did run this test later and discovered the tear).
But, the most commonly overlooked injury is one to the articular cartilage, which can occur beneath a traumatized meniscus or one that was damaged by the meniscus surgery.
It's difficult to believe that, given the history of Clowney, they have not encountered significant already-existing arthritic changes in his knee.
As a final comment, re-operation is not anything that you want to see for any reason.........every time the knee is re-entered, there will usually be some lasting morbidity associated with it.
I really hope that McNair is not that kind of owner. Not only the meddling kind that overrides the professional opinion of his head coach, but also the kind that does not learn from his own previous mistakes.
I was thinking the same thing. I hope he really said was get the best player in the first round and don't screw it up!
If that's the case, then why didn't O'Brien just keep Case Keenum and T.J. Yates?
I can't answer that.
He won 11 games with those guys. He won 10 games with Charlie Weis at Kansas City.
The point is the same. Fitz has never won 9 games. If he does it this year, it will be the first time.
That's a whole lot of words just to come to the conclusion that you agree with my original point.
It's semantics. Not taking Bortles doesn't mean OB doesn't believe he could run the offense. It just means that he doesn't think he is likely to be much better, if any, than the guys available later.... just like he said the whole time.
Either way.... I'm saying that OB didn't think Bortles was special. He's just someone "that'll work" like many of the other QBs in this draft.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
1a: Dr. James Andrews, "It's right there... you don't see that... how's your vision?"
2b: Dr. Andrews, "Yeah, you see that stuff floating around in there? That's exactly what is expected when you try that short-term, quick-fix surgery instead of the recommended procedure with the better outcomes. You created another problem, now you get to fix it. And I'd suggest you call your attorney."
or
2b: Dr. Andrews, "Whose bright idea was it to shoot him up with Toradol and put him in a game 6 weeks post-op when he continued to report severe pain??? Nice work, there."
Texian
Hall of Fame
Unless of course you don't subscribe to it was O'Brien making that decision, which I for one think McNair intervened. Wouldn't be the first time McNair Intervened.
Exactly, I believe McNair was gunshy over another 1st pick QB as a result of his David Carr experience.
May be hard to believe but that meddling behavior handwriting is on the wall.
It was McNair, who made the decisions:
to hire Wade Phillips and promise him 1st rd draft picks.
sign Ed Reed without consulting the coaching staff, McNair sent his plane for Ed, how many players have had that luxury?
Told Andre Johnson that Andre and his salary would not be cut and promised Andre he would retire a Texan.
The bad news is McNair really seems to be liking playing the GM and I suspect it will only get worse. McNair is reminding me of Rankin Smith and John Mecom Jr.
The picture is worth a 1000 words and tells the story:
If true, then we need to collectively get off Rick Smith's back and accept that he's just a lap dog.
And if true, we need to accept that this team will forever be wallowing in mediocrity, because owners historically never make good GMs for their teams.
And if true, then we are just rooting for a blind squirrel hoping to get an occasional nut.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell McNair told his shiny new QB/offense guru HC he couldn't have any QB he wanted in the draft. None.
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