Jack Bauer
Rookie
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Fact is, VY has his weaknesses (INTs for one).
chuckm said:Maybe we should draft Stephen King
gtexan02 said:VY couldn't possibly step out and lead a Texans team as a rookie anyway. Theres simply no way some of our experienced vets are going to get all fired up and passionate because some 22 year old kid yells the UT battle cry. You have to earn respect in the NFL, unlike colleg eor highschool where you can get itmuch more quickly with an amazing play or series, etc.
billtxus said:Its a little easier to have IT when you play on the best team in the nation, and most weeks are playing against teams that shouldn't even be sharing the same field. Texas played two tough opponents this year, Ohio St and USC. The rest of the games they just had to show up. When the team is this dominant its easy to display leadership, charisma or whatever.
Carr has led the league in sacks for four years. Didn't even have a QB coach his first two years. Has had to put up with literally incompetent offensive coordinators and planners.
The one game they let him call his own game against Arizona, he did great, and put up 27 points in the first half. The second half they go back to Joe calling the plays and they gain 63 yards for the half. Why did they change? were the coaches really that dumb? Looks like it.
In any event, my point is you have one guy in an extremely successful situation, and another in a very unsuccesful situation. If VY were losing games week after week, then he might not be quite the leader, or have IT.
This isn't meant to knock VY, but merely to say that I don't think that people have a good picture of DC, and that he has been in a very tough situation.
"IT" is leadership and the attention, respect and adulation of his teammates and coaches. It's just hard for people to spell out (its an intangible...something Carr is short on)...so they say, "IT". Vince Young has "it" in my eyes. You know what I think of Carr...so no need for me to go on about "that".MorKnolle said:I for one am pretty tired of hearing people on the radio say stuff like this: "I don't know what it is, but Vince just has 'IT', I can see it in his eyes." What is that supposed to mean other than you want him on the team and it's a convenient, non-substantial thing you can say to compliment Vince (or whoever your favorite player may be) and gripe about Carr. Anyone can come up with some ambiguous "IT" that their favorite player possesses in order to make them sound like the "answer" for our team, or just say "IT" for lack of any other compliment that actually bears some substance to it. At first I didn't like it, but after hearing these kinds of arguments from people, I'm beginning to see the connection to those eBay commercials that say "whatever IT is, find it on eBay." Well, whatever "IT" is, I see it in all my favorite players and it makes them a winner in my books.
Big B Texan Fan said:When we talk about "IT" there is a small elite group of people that recognize "IT" right away and knows what that players next move is, where his emotions are, what's in his heart. These players include the likes of Jordan, Tiger, Magic, Bird, Montana, Singeltary, Lott. Those guys I bet recognized that guy on the TV that night. I bet when they were watching and it was 4th and 5 with seconds left, once the ball was snapped their hearing went muffled and they vicariously scored along with him knowing all along that a TD was gonna happen before the snap. "IT" is as rare as a perfect diamond, and not many have "IT".
I'd probably agree but this thread is about Young and Carr.tulexan said:Reggie Bush has "it" too.
Vinny said:"IT" is leadership and the attention, respect and adulation of his teammates and coaches.
tulexan said:Carr had "it" when he was in college too. A lot of great college QB's have "it". The difference is whether you can bring "it" to the NFL. That is what separates the Peyton Mannings and the Ryan Leafs.
I think most of the arguments I read here are hollow...on both sides of this debate. I read about 1 good comment out of every 10 since the Rose bowl....and it's not going to change. You just have to know who has a consistently credible opinion over the years and try not to worry about the blowhards...on both sides of this debate.Zephyr said:Looks like you did a good job spelling it out right here. And besides these words people can simply say he has the intangibles and it seems less like someone has a crush on VY. It all comes down to word choice. That's how debates are won/lost and this is why a lot of the arguments made in favor of VY seem hollow.
Vinny said:"IT" is leadership and the attention, respect and adulation of his teammates and coaches. It's just hard for people to spell out (its an intangible...something Carr is short on)...so they say, "IT". Vince Young has "it" in my eyes. You know what I think of Carr...so no need for me to go on about "that".
I think there is much to be said for having great leadership qualities. I don't think Manning has them either (and why he can't seem to win when the going gets tough)....I think that most of his teammates consider him elitist and better than them (in Peytons mind), so I don't consider that a good choice of people to hold up in this argument.infantrycak said:To take this out of the Young vs. Carr context, IT is something that IMO is vastly misanalyzed and overstated based upon results in a team sport. While having IT in the NBA will more directly lift an entire team, having IT in the NFL can be either hidden by a poor team or bad results or can be imaginary based on a great team. Look just at this past weekend and the discussions of Manning. Manning doesn't get the last TD and he is once again the big game losing QB who made questionable judgement calls in crunch time. Wayne pulls in that next to last pass attempt and Manning would have been the IT king of the world. Fact is his leadership skills and IT factor didn't swing on that play, but most football fans will act like it did.
Vinny said:I think there is much to be said for having great leadership qualities. I don't think Manning has them either (and why he can't seem to win when the going gets tough)....I think that most of his teammates consider him elitist and better than them, so I don't consider that a good choice of people to hold up in this argument.
Vinny said:I think most of the arguments I read here are hollow...on both sides of this debate. I read about 1 good comment out of every 10 since the Rose bowl....and it's not going to change. You just have to know who has a consistently credible opinion over the years and try not to worry about the blowhards...on both sides of this debate.
Vinny said:I think there is much to be said for having great leadership qualities. I don't think Manning has them either (and why he can't seem to win when the going gets tough)....I think that most of his teammates consider him elitist and better than them (in Peytons mind), so I don't consider that a good choice of people to hold up in this argument.
infantrycak said:Notice I didn't say Manning was a great leader. My point was to illustrate the perception of the public based on results using a recent example. I suspect Manning is regarded as an elitist but much of his team as well. Clearly having great leadership is a good thing--the point I was getting at was how to judge it, some do it by speeches, some without saying anything but just performing, some by quiet determination, some by fire--not all can be seen by fans.
Grndzro said:I would like to point out that the "it" factor is a very legit intangible. I saw it many times when I was in the military. Some people have it and some people dont. That is not to say that it sometimes does not come out until certain circumstances are present. As far as Carr goes, I would like to bring up another Quaterback that was known to not have "it" his first couple of years in the league. That quarterback was Drew Brees, yet for the last two years he suddenly has "it" with his team and coaches. The same coaches that were going to toss him aside because he did not have it. It is amazing that when put to the test, and given talent around him suddenly his "it" factor multiplied. No one on this board can say Carr is not a leader until you are in that huddle, the rest is only speculation.
I have seen the biggest men run when they face danger and the weakest rise to the moment, take charge and push back the enemy. You never know what a man has in his heart until you walk in his shoes.
I agree with your take 100%. The one's that are quick to judge one's abilities and worth are usually the one's that are the least qualified. To be in a position to evaluate one's abilities one has to have done it themselves to be trully objective in their judgements. I've not read this entire thread as it is quite long so forgive me if this a duplicate post.Grndzro said:Thanks Cak, I get a little worked up when people question others heart and leadership when they have never walked in the persons shoes or know what is really going on within the team. Many of these posters have know idea what leadership is or what it takes to be a leader. Many can not lead themselves out of a one way hallway. Sorry just venting.
Grndzro said:I would like to point out that the "it" factor is a very legit intangible. I saw it many times when I was in the military. Some people have it and some people dont. That is not to say that it sometimes does not come out until certain circumstances are present. As far as Carr goes, I would like to bring up another Quaterback that was known to not have "it" his first couple of years in the league. That quarterback was Drew Brees, yet for the last two years he suddenly has "it" with his team and coaches. The same coaches that were going to toss him aside because he did not have it. It is amazing that when put to the test, and given talent around him suddenly his "it" factor multiplied. No one on this board can say Carr is not a leader until you are in that huddle, the rest is only speculation.
I have seen the biggest men run when they face danger and the weakest rise to the moment, take charge and push back the enemy. You never know what a man has in his heart until you walk in his shoes.
When you go on with the trolling that you do it makes me more excited about our bet.jerek said:No offense, but this is the most ridiculously speculative post I have ever read: this in particular emerging from a hurricane of speculative, blankity-blank Vince Young blankity-blank posts (profanity involving unnnatural or vulgar expressions of affection deleted).
I don't know if you are writing a love letter to your girl or if you are talking about sports here, given the confusing use of previously distinguishable metaphors and word imagery.
Whether or not Vince Young has "it,' I am overly tired of hearing about "it." Unless you were having a party with above-mentioned sports celebrities at the time, you would do well to stop putting words in their mouths. It doesn't help your cause.
Big B Texan Fan said:When you go on with the trolling that you do it makes me more excited about our bet.
I'll let you win this little battle, but remember, if you want stats and sources and links and quotes, go read a sports mag, or paper, or watch your fav sports channel.
If a speculatory post on a MB in a large city gets your panties in a wad, then may I suggest that you take up a new hobby
I'll try and make any future fantasies not so strange. No promisesjerek said:Just leave the strange fantasies out of it. Please.
infantrycak said:To take this out of the Young vs. Carr context, IT is something that IMO is vastly misanalyzed and overstated based upon results in a team sport. While having IT in the NBA will more directly lift an entire team, having IT in the NFL can be either hidden by a poor team or bad results or can be imaginary based on a great team.
Double Barrel said:To keep things in perspective, though, many players have "IT" in college but are complete flops in the pros. Andre Ware, Eric Crouch, Danny Wuerffel, Rashaan Salaamm, Jason White, Chris Weinke, Ron Dayne, Ty Detmer...just to name a few Heisman winners that were busts in the NFL. They definitely had some form of "IT" in the college ranks, though.
Not comparing any of the above examples to Vince Young. But rather pointing out that a great college career does not necessarily guarantee any measure of success in professional football.
FirstDownMaker said:If what a player does in college does not matter then why is Reggie Bush on the top of your list?
HJam72 said:"IT" is either a college defense to play against or something you buy on ebay.
I wonder if you still feel the same way?To take this out of the Young vs. Carr context, IT is something that IMO is vastly misanalyzed and overstated based upon results in a team sport. While having IT in the NBA will more directly lift an entire team, having IT in the NFL can be either hidden by a poor team or bad results or can be imaginary based on a great team. Look just at this past weekend and the discussions of Manning. Manning doesn't get the last TD and he is once again the big game losing QB who made questionable judgement calls in crunch time. Wayne pulls in that next to last pass attempt and Manning would have been the IT king of the world. Fact is his leadership skills and IT factor didn't swing on that play, but most football fans will act like it did. IT is something you certainly want in players, but it is very hard for fans to really know who has IT IMO--success alone certainly doesn't equal IT.
I wonder if you still feel the same way?
I wonder if you still feel the same way?