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Injury Thread

PapaL said:
I'm scared about this one. His 4.45 40 time is going to take a hit but hopefully he's still as powerful and shifty as ever when he returns.
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What other RBs have had an Achilles injury and come back from it? General question for everyone.
 
TexansBull said:
What other RBs have had an Achilles injury and come back from it? General question for everyone.
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Branden Oliver, Chargers, tore his in 2016 and made his return this year. Seems to have other leg injuries since his return.
Brandon Oliver hurt his Achilles’ tendon. You do not want to see the video.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lles-tendon-you-do-not-want-to-see-the-video/



This article is a bit dated (from 2010) but a decent read until CND shows up.

Return to football after Achilles tendon rupture
http://lermagazine.com/article/return-to-football-after-achilles-tendon-rupture
Of the 31 players who sustained an Achilles tendon rupture, 21 (64%) returned to play in the NFL at an average of 11 months after injury. In the three seasons following their return, those 21 players saw significant decreases in games played and power ratings compared to the three seasons preceding the injury.
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What terrible luck with Foreman. That attempt of a tackle might have just cut his career way short. Our 3rd round picks are definitely cursed.
 
@CloakNNNdagger

JJ was on the stationary Bike this morning.

In regards to the type of injury he had, does this indicate the severity of the injury he suffered?

I read online that he worst case scenario that he was to not put any pressure on that specific leg for 3 months.
 
corry said:
@CloakNNNdagger

JJ was on the stationary Bike this morning.

In regards to the type of injury he had, does this indicate the severity of the injury he suffered?

I read online that he worst case scenario that he was to not put any pressure on that specific leg for 3 months.
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I would have expected this. Weight-bearing exercise, such as jumping, running, walking or even using an elliptical trainer, stresses your bone tissue and encourages regeneration. Bicycling does not qualify as weight-bearing exercise because you don't support your weight against gravity. At 6 weeks post surgery, (of course there is no report of exactly the nature of Watt's plateau fracture), still in the non weight-bearing period, Watt would not be on a regular recumbent or upright stationary bicycle. However, he would probably have gotten the OK to "spin" on a recumbent stationary with zero resistance until he is allowed to be weight bearing at 12 weeks. The pedals on a spin bike turn a heavy flywheel at the front of the bike that gives the similar pedaling experience to that of an outdoor bike. It has a fixed gear so the pedals keep turning from the weight of flywheel even though you’ve stopped pushing the pedals with your feet. This bike is used in this application basically to gain and maintain range of motion of the knee until weight bearing is allowed.
 
Rich Schmidt said:
any news on Kevin Johnson? Just got back from the game, he seemed to disappear in the 4th so figure he was hurt, AGAIN...
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Concussion
CloakNNNdagger said:
I would have expected this. Weight-bearing exercise, such as jumping, running, walking or even using an elliptical trainer, stresses your bone tissue and encourages regeneration. Bicycling does not qualify as weight-bearing exercise because you don't support your weight against gravity. At 6 weeks post surgery, (of course there is no report of exactly the nature of Watt's plateau fracture), still in the non weight-bearing period, Watt would not be on a regular recumbent or upright stationary bicycle. However, he would probably have gotten the OK to "spin" on a recumbent stationary with zero resistance until he is allowed to be weight bearing at 12 weeks. The pedals on a spin bike turn a heavy flywheel at the front of the bike that gives the similar pedaling experience to that of an outdoor bike. It has a fixed gear so the pedals keep turning from the weight of flywheel even though you’ve stopped pushing the pedals with your feet. This bike is used in this application basically to gain and maintain range of motion of the knee until weight bearing is allowed.
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So is this good, bad or indifferent?
 
TexansSeminole said:
I’m starting to wonder about Kevin Johnson’s vertical ability due to past injury. He doesn’t jump. That’s twice where he hasn’t even tried. I wonder if @CloakNNNdagger could expand on this.

It’s not bad coverage prior to the arrival of the ball, he’s just not contesting at the high point, or attempting to.
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That would be a logical conclusion.............2 Jones fracture surgeries, and abnormally long rehab period after the last Jones fracture surgery that didn't allow him to return to practice until this past TC, and a recent Grade II MCL knee injury. As I've posted before, this history makes it very suspicious for Johnson still having residual problems with his Jones fractures. It doesn't take much for even a mild chronic foot problem to translate into a career full of lower limb issues and to compromise vertical jump ability that you are questioning.
 
TheIronDuke said:
Honestly I think Foreman might have suffered a career ending injury. Running backs don't come back from achilles injuries. See Arian Foster. Hope I'm wrong.
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Brisco_County said:
CnD, I assume you'll be posting some case study data on Achilles tear recovery, but can you specifically search for updated data on the finding that players only regain 80% explosiveness in a best case scenario? I'm wondering if technology has offered any improvement there in the time between DeMeco's injury and now. And also hoping that our RB of the future isn't damaged goods.
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PapaL said:
I'm scared about this one. His 4.45 40 time is going to take a hit but hopefully he's still as powerful and shifty as ever when he returns.
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PapaL said:
Branden Oliver, Chargers, tore his in 2016 and made his return this year. Seems to have other leg injuries since his return.
Brandon Oliver hurt his Achilles’ tendon. You do not want to see the video.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lles-tendon-you-do-not-want-to-see-the-video/



This article is a bit dated (from 2010) but a decent read until CND shows up.

Return to football after Achilles tendon rupture
http://lermagazine.com/article/return-to-football-after-achilles-tendon-rupture
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Here is the play where Foreman ruptured his Achilles tend.:


The Article above (I reported on the actual study back when Demeco was injured) is somewhat outdated. However, to paint a pretty picture for anyone have suffered this injury is pretty unrealistic even with today's new techniques. In a new study just published earlier this year in Foot and Ankle Orthopedics, the same retrospective approach was taken from online sources including NFL news, Injury Reports, player registries and data bases cross-referenced to conduct a retrospective identification of all NFL players sustaining complete Achilles tendon ruptures during the 2010-2015 NFL seasons. Well-established power rating formulas to grade players was applied up to 3 years following the injuries.78 Achilles tendon ruptures were identified in professional football players during the 2010-2015 NFL seasons. 58% of these injuries occurred during the preseason (such a high number for such a short period of time strongly reflecting conditioning issues). Of those that suffered an Achilles tendon rupture, 26% did not ever return to play in the NFL. Players who did return to play in the NFL took an average of 9 months to recover (just enough to practice) after the date of injury. Across all positions, there was a net decrease in power ratings by 22% and a net decrease in approximate value by 23% over 3 years following player return after Achilles tendon rupture. Across all positions, running backs saw the biggest decrease in production with a 78% decrease over 3 years post-injury in both power ratings and approximate value. While the incidence of Achilles tendon ruptures in NFL players, especially in the preseason, has increased substantially, more players are returning to play after injury and quicker and with better post-injury performance as compared to the previous two decades. In practicality, these players are more likely to max out, not after 9 months, but closer to the 2nd year removed from the injury. However, this injury results in significant morbidity across the board because the position relies so heavily on a combination of speed, cutting ability and physicality. ........running backs specifically have been shown a dismal future.

There is no doubt in my mind the Foreman entering the NFL with a known left foot stress fracture which was not fully addressed with surgery, and him being hobbled by a hamstring tear in OTAs which was most likely a compensatory injury........along with O'Brien's repeated statements that he was not taking his condition seriously (and thus not get the game time that fans expected) were strong factors in the development of his Achilles rupture. The mechanism of most Achilles ruptures is with sudden powerful takeoffs from standstill or coming down hard from a high vertical jump mostly on the toes. His Achilles must have already been weakened significantly ..........and his hamstring tightened up at the same time that his calf muscle also contracted when he was trying to extend his leg running (the hamstring is stronger than his calf muscles [ he grabbed his hamstring first, then his calf] and therefore the Achilles attached to the calf muscles tore first a sign of discoordinate muscle conditioning) for the injury to have occurred the way it did during this play.
[See the video I posted above]

From an April post:

CloakNNNdagger said:
D'Onta Foreman was held out of the Combine activities with what was discovered during medical exam as a "slight stress fracture of the foot." Although he was not aware of it, it nonetheless makes it a worrisome injury. The name "stress fracture" in itself seems like a minor fracture, although they can carry some of the same risks as a complete fracture.....and certainly can extend to one quickly in the future. Jones fractures can temporarily hold up through relatively short period of playing on them, but will invariably require surgery. In an elite athlete, non surgical treatment is seldom ever pursued......especially when it comes to a large powerful RB who pushes off hard every play. I doubt that I have to bring up the plight of other elite NFL players which were blessed the likes of this injury.............i.e., Dez Bryant, Julian Edelman, Julio Jones, Sammy Watkins, Demarcus Lawrence, Marvin Jones.............
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Another point to consider is if one ruptures an Achilles tendon on one limb, the risk of a rupture on the contralateral side is significantly higher than that of the general population described above (6.4% compared with .018%).........and this is in the general population............although a specific athlete study has not been published, with the immense stresses placed on the Achilles in this setting, you can expect a significantly increased number, especially in a NFL football setting. And unfortunately, Achilles ruptures are infamous for leading to further leg injuries down the line.
 
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Doc, when did this come out about Davenports shoulder injury? I must have totally missed it! I was wondering why I didn't see him playing this past weekend.
 
Clowney has been setting the league alight this season and last. Is there any revision to your expectations for him Doc or is he still just waiting for that knee to crumble?
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
He should have never come back this season. If this is another concussion, he will likely get a very long break..............very likely/smartly a career-ending permanent break from football.
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Doc do you really think this is it for Fiedorowicz? Is there any kind of ruling on the number/severity of concussions a player is allowed to have before he gets told not to play again?

I noticed when CJ was getting back up that he didn't look/act right. He was kind of shaking his head a little and it looked odd. I knew there was something wrong. This season has been brutal for the Texans in regard to injuries and I think they lost 5 more today(Fiedorowicz, B. Miller, B. Ellington, Blue, and JJo). There is just not much left to play with!
 
Insideop said:
Doc do you really think this is it for Fiedorowicz? Is there any kind of ruling on the number/severity of concussions a player is allowed to have before he gets told not to play again?

I noticed when CJ was getting back up that he didn't look/act right. He was kind of shaking his head a little and it looked odd. I knew there was something wrong. This season has been brutal for the Texans in regard to injuries and I think they lost 5 more today(Fiedorowicz, B. Miller, B. Ellington, Blue, and JJo). There is just not much left to play with!
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There's no set number of concussions that have been determined for an NFL player to retire............a limit protocol would never be set because that's not a determination that can be made by the League. For one, every concussion is different, and an independent (truly independent) neurologist should be the one guiding that decision. Severity and proximity of multiple concussions are accurate gauges in determining that guided decision. Fiedorowicz has experienced both severe and multiply very proximal concussions..............I know what recommendations I would make from the perspective of a trauma surgeon, and have no doubt that neurologists that I work with would make............to retire before there is guaranteed permanent early age neurologic debility.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
There's no set number of concussions that have been determined for an NFL player to retire............a limit protocol would never be set because that's not a determination that can be made by the League. For one, every concussion is different, and an independent (truly independent) neurologist should be the one guiding that decision. Severity and proximity of multiple concussions are accurate gauges in determining that guided decision. Fiedorowicz has experienced both severe and multiply very proximal concussions..............I know what recommendations I would make from the perspective of a trauma surgeon, and have no doubt that neurologists that I work with would make............to retire before there is guaranteed permanent early age neurologic debility.
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After three concussions in one season, I don't see how anyone could envision a scenario where he comes back and doesn't sustain another. No one, including the Texans, won't be betting on it. He's done.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
There's no set number of concussions that have been determined for an NFL player to retire............a limit protocol would never be set because that's not a determination that can be made by the League. For one, every concussion is different, and an independent (truly independent) neurologist should be the one guiding that decision. Severity and proximity of multiple concussions are accurate gauges in determining that guided decision. Fiedorowicz has experienced both severe and multiply very proximal concussions..............I know what recommendations I would make from the perspective of a trauma surgeon, and have no doubt that neurologists that I work with would make............ to retire before there is guaranteed permanent early age neurologic debility.
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So, if the team neurologist, or his neurologist, recommend he retire, and then I would assume he got a second opinion and that neurologist recommended the same thing, the "ball is in his (the player's) court" as to whether he wants to retire or not, correct?
 
Insideop said:
So, if the team neurologist, or his neurologist, recommend he retire, and then I would assume he got a second opinion and that neurologist recommended the same thing, the "ball is in his (the player's) court" as to whether he wants to retire or not, correct?
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Unfortunately, no one can force a player to retire. When his contract is up, a team can release the player. And if no other team picks him up, the decision is made for him.
This his 4th concussion within 1 calendar year (remember, he suffered his 1st on Dec 14, 2016)...........that should be enough for the decision to be made.
 
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CloakNNNdagger said:
Scarlett has been placed on IR.
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Man, the Texans just can't catch a break! Or, maybe they've been catching too many breaks.

I heard Cush has been activated. I wonder how long before he tears or breaks something! I mean it can't be good for someone to be out as long as he was, not being in "football shape," to come back and play, not to mention he's no spring chicken anymore.
 
I don't get around here a whole lot lately and I've read this thread all the way back to the Patriots game. I've got a real simple question and don't really see an answer for it.

Are there any explanation for the amount of injuries that we've had this season? I've got my own ideas (sorry OL play, turf vs. grass) but does anyone else think that it might point to a bigger problem with the S&C program?
 
Mr. White said:
but does anyone else think that it might point to a bigger problem with the S&C program?
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I'm leaning towards this option as well but CND answered this question a few times before. I forget the details of what he said but If you scroll to earlier posts in this thread you'll find it
 
TexansBull said:
We still don’t know what grade of fracture (am I saying that right)?
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No we don't...........tibial plateau fractures are classified as "TYPE 1, 2, 3, etc." But from the incision placement, the fracture involved the postero-lateral tibial plateau. And because of the open incision, the fracture was at least a little displaced necessitating plate and screw stabilization. A fracture there would involve articular cartilage in a weight-bearing area as well as possibly the lateral meniscus.

Watt has most likely sustained a SchatzkerType 1 or Type 2 fracture.

schatzker-tibial-plateau-fractures.jpg
 
PapaL said:
Doc - Any thoughts on the Ryan Shazier spinal injury? I'll post a link to the injury here shortly...

*EDIT*
Steelers #50 - Nothing vicious but very stomach turning.
https://www.clippituser.tv/c/dwdpxq
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Since he has begun to have a little movement in his lower extremities, rather than a transected spinal cord, it appears he has sustained a spinal contusion/bruise. Contusion prognosis is related to the extent of the contusion. When essentially full return is not seen within 24-48 hours,the extent of functional return becomes much less predictable. We'll know more over the next 24 hours.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
It's good news that "there was no ligament damage." However, there is assuredly meniscus and articular damage........articular damage being the greatest concern. The important thing to understand is that studies have shown that if there is accompanying ACL in tibial plateau fractures that require surgery, the prognosis/recovery no different/better than if there is no ACL tear is involved. Essentially, short of an associated catastrophic multiligament dislocation of the knee, the extent of the tibial plateau fracture(s) alone usually dictates the course and long term prognosis of the injury.
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Posting this to keep up
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
My thoughts on Watt:

Unequal lower limb loads are often driven by dysfunction of the core/back. An extremely important factor of core stability is its ability to allow the player to control the pelvis on the hips and lower extremity in space via the stabilization functions of the abductors and rotators of the hip. Once the core/back becomes compromised.......... weakened/dysfunctional..........the knee stability is adversely affected with the knee becoming highly exposed to the risk of all injuries. With a tibial plateau fracture, in 30-40% there is an associated ACL or MCL tear, as well as meniscus damage.

A DIAGRAGM THAT I HAVE POSTED PREVIOUSLY:

No_return_position.PNG


I don't know that the Texans will reveal the entirety of the injuries. But if it is a significant class of plateau injury, which at this point in time, I would say that it is, especially since it is all be a given that it will require surgical hardware reconstruction........that would mean that Watt is through for the season if not for longer. Even if it is a non-displace fracture that is treated without surgery, we will not see him this season.
Keep in mind that as the fractures traverse the cartilage surfaces, loss of overlying and directly adjacent articular cartilage is inevitable.



tibial-plateau-fracture-21-638.jpg
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This too
 
So why is the articular cartilage important and more concern than the meniscus? I know we were hoping for a grade 1 or 2 but it still sounds like with those grades the articular cartilage was damaged and potentially the meniscus.

Overall - is the grade one and two still positive for him to return at some capacity? Or because there articular damage it turn more severe into a no return scenario?

I know you don’t have a crystal ball, but just in case you do...
 
TexansBull said:
So why is the articular cartilage important and more concern than the meniscus? I know we were hoping for a grade 1 or 2 but it still sounds like with those grades the articular cartilage was damaged and potentially the meniscus.

Overall - is the grade one and two still positive for him to return at some capacity? Or because there articular damage it turn more severe into a no return scenario?

I know you don’t have a crystal ball, but just in case you do...
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Both are a concern.............and the concern for the immediate future is related to the extent of each/either. Too much meniscus damage.........the knee can demonstrate various levels of instability............with a much higher rate of later degenerative arthritis in a player who undergoes meniscectomy during fracture repair,.. Too much articular damage.............pain and bone on bone with accompanying debility. Just FYI, the arthritis factor is caused mainly by articular cartilage splitting at the point of fracture and joint instability, although direct damage to the articular surface at the time of injury as.studies have shown from 25% to 50% frequency of the need for knee replacement in the future even after well surgically-repaired/stabilized fractures. I doubt that we hear reports any time soon if ever as to the extent of his articular cartilage or meniscus damage.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Both are a concern.............and the concern for the immediate future is related to the extent of each/either. Too much meniscus damage.........the knee can demonstrate various levels of instability............with a much higher rate of later degenerative arthritis in a player who undergoes meniscectomy during fracture repair,.. Too much articular damage.............pain and bone on bone with accompanying debility. Just FYI, the arthritis factor is caused mainly by articular cartilage splitting at the point of fracture and joint instability, although direct damage to the articular surface at the time of injury as.studies have shown from 25% to 50% frequency of the need for knee replacement in the future even after well surgically-repaired/stabilized fractures. I doubt that we hear reports any time soon if ever as to the extent of his articular cartilage or meniscus damage.
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Thank you so much for explaining this. Very valuable information.
 
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