I don't know why you come out of left field with this stuff, but it ain't black and white and it ain't easy
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Hard Knocks: Houston Texans 2015
- Thread starter Playoffs
- Start date
I don't know why you come out of left field with this stuff, but it ain't black and white and it ain't easy
You watching them play is an opinion.
Doubt an injured 2-14 team makes the playoffs even with Brady. Agree with them having a chance at a SB in 2011-2012 with Brady. Brady would've been able to overcome Kubiak's conservatism. Should be fun to see how Kubiak/Peyton mesh this yr.
Jan 8th 2011
Seattle 41
Saints 36
Mathew Hasselbeck Seahawks starting QB threw for 4 TD's and 1 Int with a QB rating of 113
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Very astute of you.
Oh look, there's another one.
That injured team almost beat the SB champs.
Not the season before Wilson got there. And so what? - they made the playoffs at 7-9. The next season (the one before Wilson) they were 7-9 again and no playoffs.
What makes you think that I believe the qb position is more important than the staff or that one can do without the other?
Aren't we special tonight?
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Interesting note on Seattle since they seem to be the team that the Texans are being measured against right now. Carroll was 7-9 in his first two seasons as HC in Seattle after taking over a 4/5-win team. Only made the playoffs in 2011 at 7-9 because they played in a horrible division. Missed the playoffs in 2012. They turned over 90% of their roster in two years. Then they draft Wilson who wound up being the starter in Carroll's third season as coach. The rest as they say is history.
But OB without a viable QB last season doesn't turn the 2-win Texans into a SB contender after one season, and our FO sucks and the owner only cares about making money.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
No.
The Seahawks finished 7-9 two years in a row, the first two years of the Carroll regime. The first year, they became the first team to finish with a losing record to make the playoffs. Then the second year, they missed the playoffs. And then they drafted Wilson.
I'll give you an example to think about. The Colts finished 14-2 in 2009. Do you think that was due to Jim Caldwell coaching (his first year as HC after Dungy retired) or Peyton Manning's passing (4500 yds, 33 TDs, 16 ints).
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Correction. It was the corpse of Jim Caldwell propped up on that sideline all season. I swear I never saw the man move once.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
COACH Manning had something to do with it. QB Manning relied upon the Prior GMs and HCs to have a team around him that was capable of that 14-2 record with HRH.
In fairness, OB has "one" NFL HC season under his belt. We still know very little about what he can/will accomplish in this league. (It's not as if McNair could say his choice was certainly the right one, based off of prior Belichick disciples.) If you're completely "sold" on OB, that's fine, but let's not get carried away and act like he has some great pedigree and track record to go on.
I saw a ball-hawking defense do great things...which like the Defense that preceded it, has little to do with the HC. I can't see them keeping up that turnover rate. I saw a team win games it shouldn't. I also saw a team that imploded completely more than once for enough minutes to lose games. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm also realistic about our inexperienced line, our yet-to-be-determined QB situation and whether the Texans wasted a #1 overall last year on Clowney.
The Texans went to the playoffs twice as well in an extremely weak post-Manning era division.
I'll give you another. The Cowboys finished 12-4 in 1995 and won the Super Bowl with Barry Switzer at the helm.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Well yeah, nothing guarantees that OB will be successful in the long run. Wasn't implying that. Just saying that there are several players who were here last year in his rookie HC season who have come back this season transformed and focused. It appears that they have bought into whatever OB is selling. There is simply a different attitude around the team this year.
I wasn't implying that OB was THE reason the defense was better last year. I can see where my post implied that to a degree. I was simply ticking off all the things that I thought were signs that this team is going in the right direction. No one has put on pads yet. No one has played a minute of real football yet. But the attitude and mindset of the players and coaches at OTA's is telling me that things are different this year in a good way.
And the Texans went to the playoffs as 10 and 12 win teams, not with a losing record. Which wasn't my point. It was that Carroll, either by intent or by accident - had a multi-year plan that was aided greatly by Wilson. If we are going to stand around and circle jerk over Petey Boy, let's give OB the same benefit of more than one year to make a SB contender.
Concerning Barry, do you remember when he was handed the Lombardi Trophy that Jerry Jones immediately grabbed it out of his hands? It was classic! He didn't want Switzer touching that thing. Everyone knew that was Jimmy's team, including Jerry.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Glad you brought that up. According to steelb in many other conversations Dungy is just an average HC who rode Manning to perpetual playoffs and the SB. Funny contrast to the current take.
Manning is no coach. He is an old school QB in the sense that he has more control of the plays than other modern QBs (but still not as much as back in the day).
Excellent example.
GOAT outlier
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
How many times do you have to be told that was not the year before Wilson was drafted? The year before Wilson was drafted they did not make the playoffs.
The playoff game was played in 2011 but it was the playoffs for the 2010 season.
Disagreeing = Troll
Deep and insightful, get back to me when the Texans are committed to put a consistent winning product on the field. Hasn't happened in over a decade.
Same theory, the GM/HC does make a huge difference. Unless you have a Manning/Brady to carry the water for the franchise.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
We all agree the Texans haven't put a consistent winner on the field yet. I don't use troll generally, but the trollish bit is your ascribing that to them not being committed to do so. Mistakes get made, key injuries happen, etc. - lot's of explanations other than your constant harping that McNair doesn't give a **** if they win.
WTF does that have to do with you being wrong that it wasn't the year before Wilson was drafted?
Nobody has said the GM/HC don't make a difference.
Thank you for conceding Manning/Brady can carry a team.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Wait, what?
Pete Carroll and John Schneider were the HC/GM in 2010 when they went to the playoffs with a 7-9 record.
Pete Carroll and John Schneider were the HC/GM in 2011 when they didn't go to the playoffs with a 7-9 record.
Pete Carroll and John Schneider had losing records as HC/GM for the Seahawks until 2012 when Wilson was gifted to them in the 3rd round.
Otherwise, it would have been Pete Carroll and John Schneider were HC/GM in 2012 when they didn't go to the playoffs with a <insert losing record>, because Matt Flynn was going to be their starter.
Jimmy Johnson did a great job putting those teams together. This proves my point of how important GM/HC positions are. Switzer only won 1 SB when he had the talent to win atleast 2.
Do you think the Texans would have Irvin/Haley/Eric Williams etc... on their team? You know integral parts of championship teams. The difference is that Jimmy Johnson would do whatever it took to win. Even if it meant taking on a few unsavory characters on the team. Same with Belichick, would the Texans ever take this route?
My point is the playing field isn't level.
Do you think the Texans would have Irvin/Haley/Eric Williams etc... on their team? You know integral parts of championship teams. The difference is that Jimmy Johnson would do whatever it took to win. Even if it meant taking on a few unsavory characters on the team. Same with Belichick, would the Texans ever take this route?
My point is the playing field isn't level.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Texans have had winning records 3 out of 4 years. This coming year would make 5 of the last 7. I think you need to move your goalposts...
You know this how?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Under similar circumstances absolutely yes. And you ain't got **** other than wanting to trash the Texans to say otherwise.
I have examples of the Texans (a) drafting troubled players and (b) sticking by players who get in trouble. Marcus Coleman DUI, Cushing pre-draft rumors and then post-draft getting caught.
Lets just say 9-7 isn't good enough and I think BOB would agree with me. During the 2 playoff yrs do you think that the Texans were true SB contenders? If so we disagree again.
I can see this is going nowhere and probably should move on. To me the GM/HC positions are just as if not more important than the QB positions. Look at all of the great QB's that never even played in a SB.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
OK, rattle off a few?
So you're saying that the McNair's would give BOB Johnson type control and let him bring in these types of players? You really believe this? We will never agree, you can talk all you want but scorebard seems to set the facts straight.
Dan Fouts/Brian Sipe/Archie Manning/Roman Gabriel/John Brodie etc....
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Scoreboard doesn't set **** straight other than that was the result. I've said it before if you don't like the result you find someone to demonize about it. It's not good enough for you to say mistakes were made, **** happened, etc. You have to find someone to ascribe an ill intent to. It's BS. Bad results happen to hard working committed people.
Irvin and Williams were drafted without any red flags beyond what the Texans have drafted. You're demonstrably wrong there. Then the Texans have kept players after misconduct as the examples I have given. As I said, you've got jack to back you up.
Don't even know why you bring up Haley - he was abrasive and a character but not a 'bad actor' of any sort.
Nice list of turnover machines.
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You can chuck Foster into the discussion of guys we've grabbed with red flags coming out of school. The whole league passed on him, in part because of his malcontent attitude, and he's said he wouldn't have drafted his younger self if he were in charge because of it. But we now have had one of the best backs in the league because of course we're clearly not trying to win.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
No. "I just like to give people crap" (your words) = Troll
All true, but we never wasted a draft pick or maneuvered a trade for him either. Either way - To paraphrase 'Cak above, he wasn't necessarily a "bad actor".
Doesn't matter how we got him, we still should have had no business throwing a bad apple in our squeaky clean bunch of apples, according to steelb.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Take Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson...
Pete's NFL record is fired two times and 14-18.
Add QB Russell Wilson to the mix and Carroll is 36-12, 6-2 in the playoffs, and one playcall from two Super Bowl wins.
Given the choice, I'll take the QB.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
I know what how? That Carroll and Schneider had a losing record as HC/GM before Wilson showed up? That one seems a bit obvious based on their actual records.
That they would have had a losing record with Flynn as the starting QB? I guess I missed where Flynn became a starting QB in the NFL. Anywhere.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
See. This is what you do. You whine that the Texans are not consistent winners, then when you get shown the data, you say it's not winning "enough" or "the right way". You're a human moving goalpost.
Actually, I'm struggling to come up with names of "great" QB's that never played in a SB. I've got Fouts and Moon.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Don't think he'll let them profile his family.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Holy crap you just named two guys that retired 40 years ago and another that is 77th in career passing yards. Seventy-Seventh...
You are totally trolling at this point. Well played.
Don't overshoot to make your point. - Roger Staubach is 84th.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
True although I think everyone knows there is a big * on Staubach for serving a 6 year Navy commitment.
On my turnover point - the folks steelb mentioned collectively threw 11 more TDs than INTs. Staubach threw 44 more in his abbreviated career.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Fair enough, but let me ask you this.
If the New England Patriots or the Seattle Seahawks were going to be on Hard Knocks, would it hurt their chances of going to the play offs in 2015? Would it hurt their chances of winning a Super Bowl?