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Game 5...Extreme test...Minnesota Vikings!

Might try reading the quotes first.





Yep, you're friggin' Carnac alright. :spit:

WTF a score and time on the clock have to do with throwing a touch pass is beyond me. Is English a second language for you?
 
WTF a score and time on the clock have to do with throwing a touch pass is beyond me. Is English a second language for you?
Evidently you failed clock management school. Dink and dunk touch passes down 17 with less than half a quarter?

You're right, it's definitely beyond you.
 
Evidently you failed clock management school. Dink and dunk touch passes down 17 with less than half a quarter?

You're right, it's definitely beyond you.

Dude, the only reason time was relevant in any context was the sample size you chose to ignore vs 1 play a year previous to the conversation.

And now a year later your still defending mallet as a touch passer? Either you don't know what a "touch pass" is or your a bafoon. A touch pass doesn't mean a throw 3 yards downfield.
 
Dude, the only reason time was relevant in any context was the sample size you chose to ignore vs 1 play a year previous to the conversation.

And now a year later your still defending mallet as a touch passer? Either you don't know what a "touch pass" is or your a bafoon. A touch pass doesn't mean a throw 3 yards downfield.
I'm not defending anything except the circumstances of the example provided and your obvious reading comprehension issues.

Let's try this S-L-O-W-L-Y. Regardless of who was at QB, that wasn't the time for touch passes. It was time to zip the damn ball downfield. Passes longer than 20 yards are very rarely "touch" passes.

Please regale me with all the QBs you've seen coming back from 17 point deficits in under half a quarter with delicate touch passing. I'll wait.
 
Has anyone listened to Ted Johnsons take on the Viking's game?

08d2a4e4-b0ae-c458-2a8c-822c853d3810.jpg
 
I'm not defending anything except the circumstances of the example provided and your obvious reading comprehension issues.

Beginning to waffle? My comment was Mallet has zero touch. Very simply put, do you agree or disagree?


Let's try this S-L-O-W-L-Y. Regardless of who was at QB, that wasn't the time for touch passes. It was time to zip the damn ball downfield. Passes longer than 20 yards are very rarely "touch" passes.

Please regale me with all the QBs you've seen coming back from 17 point deficits in under half a quarter with delicate touch passing. I'll wait.

I understand you'd like to pigeonhole your opinion now into a very specific game scenario because it's the only argument you have left. But lets address that 20 yard reference and the late game yards your hanging your hat on...

#1 Do you understand the average quarterback has a yards per attempt average of about 7.1 or so? Suddenly your 20 yard reference sounds less important than you make it out to be. At 7 yards throwing a catchable pass instead of a fastball might be important.

#2 Have you ever seen a defense protecting a lead in any game ever? What happens? Corners and safety's drop back to defend the deep ball allowing underneath passes. Games are won and lost there every bit as often as a deep ball. I don't think there's any point regaling you as you've seen it a thousand times and were to oblivious to understand it.
 
Beginning to waffle? My comment was Mallet has zero touch. Very simply put, do you agree or disagree?




I understand you'd like to pigeonhole your opinion now into a very specific game scenario because it's the only argument you have left. But lets address that 20 yard reference and the late game yards your hanging your hat on...

#1 Do you understand the average quarterback has a yards per attempt average of about 7.1 or so? Suddenly your 20 yard reference sounds less important than you make it out to be. At 7 yards throwing a catchable pass instead of a fastball might be important.

#2 Have you ever seen a defense protecting a lead in any game ever? What happens? Corners and safety's drop back to defend the deep ball allowing underneath passes. Games are won and lost there every bit as often as a deep ball. I don't think there's any point regaling you as you've seen it a thousand times and were to oblivious to understand it.
Standing behind my statements is Pigeonholing? You decided to target me and can't back up your rhetoric...again.

Still waiting for you to man up and admit you mischaracterized my statements.

Here's lets' try these on to address what you seem to think are gaping holes in my logic.

#1 - Catchable passes are great. 7.1 yds per attempt is great...EXCEPT WHEN YOU'RE TRAILING BY 17 with less than half a quarter to get it done. You seem to be under the false impression we were expecting Joe Montana to dink and dunk his way downfield.

#2 - Yes, that's called a prevent defense. It attempts to keep the play not only in front, but in the middle of the field, thereby allowing seconds to run off as players are kept inbounds. Here's the thing. Prevent defenses, with that sort of time left, and with that sort of lead will be happy to let your 7 yds-a-pop touch passes keep happening as the last seconds tick off the clock. That's why you attempt to go vertical and shrink the field.

You keep acting as if I was giving a hypothetical. It's the actual conditions of the game when Mallet entered.

As for any aspect of Mallet's arm? His arm was fine, the damage was between the ears.
 
As for any aspect of Mallet's arm? His arm was fine, the damage was between the ears.

He didn't lack measurables with his arm, but his passing style and ability was terrible. He was one of the worst passers I've ever seen in the NFL. Most QB's have all types of throws they make in different situations depending on the defensive position, the timing of the receiver to get to the spot where he is throwing, and all sorts of other scenarios that changes how they throw a pass. Mallet just had a bullet pass for everyone he wanted to throw to when it was completely unnecessary a large amount of the time.
 
As for any aspect of Mallet's arm? His arm was fine, the damage was between the ears.

He didn't lack measurables with his arm, but his passing style and ability was terrible. He was one of the worst passers I've ever seen in the NFL. Most QB's have all types of throws they make in different situations depending on the defensive position, the timing of the receiver to get to the spot where he is throwing, and all sorts of other scenarios that changes how they throw a pass. Mallet just had a bullet pass for everyone he wanted to throw to when it was completely unnecessary a large amount of the time.
 
Mallet just had a bullet pass for everyone he wanted to throw to when it was completely unnecessary a large amount of the time.

This was really the only point ever being made. He didn't understand that a year ago and still doesn't.
 
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/dropped-passes-by-quarterback/2015/

Well here's an interesting compilation of stats by an independent party grading 56 quarterbacks all on the same curve for dropped passes in 2015. Ryan Mallet's percentage of dropped passes lead all 56. Not only did he he have the most dropped passes per attempt at 6.56%, he was head and shoulders the worst by a wide margin excluding bradford (6.2)

Could be an indicator he doesn't throw a very catchable ball.
 
More disturbing than Mallet's play was Bill O'Brien trading for him, signing him to a contract extension and starting him for several games.

What did he see in Mallet coaching him in New England?

I'm starting to think O'Brien has zero eye for talent
 
More disturbing than Mallet's play was Bill O'Brien trading for him, signing him to a contract extension and starting him for several games.

What did he see in Mallet coaching him in New England?

I'm starting to think O'Brien has zero eye for talent

Until you consider what we traded for him (practically a bag of chips) & what we signed him for... more chips.

The rumors were that Godsey/Rick wanted Mallett O'b didn't. Considering how negotiations went to acquire him, then sign him, it's not too hard to believe.

it might have been the other way around, which makes more sense, that O'b wanted him & Rick assigned a very low value to him. But who knows.

As we saw last offseason, when they think they see a franchise QB, money's no object.
 
More disturbing than Mallet's play was Bill O'Brien trading for him, signing him to a contract extension and starting him for several games.

http://www.espn.com/boston/nfl/stor...tt-traded-new-england-patriots-houston-texans

The Patriots received a conditional sixth or seventh-round draft pick in 2016, a source told ESPN.

Patriots then traded that 7th Round Pick to Seattle; eventually took WR Kenny Lawler - whom was cut and eventually signed to their PS.

So yeah, we missed out Kenny Lawler when we traded the 243rd in the draft for a QB. In case anyone is wondering, there were 253 picks in that draft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NFL_Draft
 
Sometimes 7th rounders hit. Derek Newton and Andre Hal have been contributers.

New England got rid of a problem and then got a pick that may or may not pan out. The key is to have lots of those picks because if 10% hit then you want increase how many times you try.

Besides that, we wasted a roster space and valuable playing time.
 
And sometimes a change of scenery does a QB good. In the case of Alarm Clock Mallett, neither side lost anything.

We wasted a roster spot and a small chance of a 7th rounder hitting. Who knows, maybe it could have been ol depth we desperately need.

From his time in New England O'Brien should have known Mallet was a waste of time and resources.
 
We wasted a roster spot and a small chance of a 7th rounder hitting. Who knows, maybe it could have been ol depth we desperately need.

From his time in New England O'Brien should have known Mallet was a waste of time and resources.
But he didn't; therein lies the problem.

Maybe that's why he thought it's not important to meet and talk and see how Osweiler functions in person before agreeing on the signing.

It wouldn't help him anyway.
:brando:
 
We wasted a roster spot and a small chance of a 7th rounder hitting. Who knows, maybe it could have been ol depth we desperately need.

From his time in New England O'Brien should have known Mallet was a waste of time and resources.

Or that 7th could be out of the league like most other 7th round picks. The same slim chance they had of making the roster was the same slim chance we had on Mallett hitting.

He should have known the future because he spent one season (2011) with him in NE? The same season Mallett spent as QB3.

Your premise that we lost something is beyond a reach. We rented a QB that was drafted in the 3rd round whom sat behind Brady and was familiar with our new system. A lot of people would take that gamble on a QB-less team. Especially for the 243/253 pick in the draft. Nothing gained, nothing lost. Both the pick AND Mallett were a long shot.
 
Bill O'Brien was in New England 4 years. It took only a couple games for the city of Houston to realize Mallet was not good at all.

There are many examples of 7th round picks panning out.

There are zero examples of QBs who can't operate alarm clocks being good.
 
More disturbing than Mallet's play was Bill O'Brien trading for him, signing him to a contract extension and starting him for several games.

What did he see in Mallet coaching him in New England?

I'm starting to think O'Brien has zero eye for talent
I think O'B is ranked 32/32 coaches that can develop quarterbacks. Basically I would rank him dead last. He's on his 4th season and still there hasn't been a quarterback here "good" enough, but I'm starting to think it's not talent, it's him.

The other guy in Denver didn't seem to have this problem.
 
Bill O'Brien was in New England 4 years. It took only a couple games for the city of Houston to realize Mallet was not good at all.

There are many examples of 7th round picks panning out.

There are zero examples of QBs who can't operate alarm clocks being good.

No one denies that he was in NE for 4 years HOWEVER Mallett was there 2011-2014. O'Brien was there 2007-2011. They were together ONE year where Mallet was QB3 behind Brady and Hoyer. Do you understand that?

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-england-patriots/roster/2011?sort=pos

So you tell me, how much time is the OC going to spend coaching up the THIRD string ROOKIE QB?

There are plenty of examples of QBs changing teams and doing much better elsewhere but please, indulge us with your in-depth list of successful 7th round picks.

I'll even spot you a few resources:
http://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of-the-game/hall-of-famers-by-draft-round/#7
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/09000d5d8286886b


In your ideal scenario we should have a HC that can see into the future, an OC that is a savant, and a DC that is a magician huh?
 
OK my mistake on the years, but I would hope that the Offensive Coordinator knows and works with the THIRD round pick at QB a lot. This wasn't a bottom round selection.

But knowing O'Brien, maybe not. He isnt the prepared type of guy to know what he has in backup QBs as OC.

But let's say he didn't have time in New England.After spending a year here in Houston as the backup and potential starter, what did he see? What made him sign Mallet to an extension? And then after a training camp "battle" with Hoyer that he lost what made him think he was still worth a roster spot and starter caliber?
 
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The point of 7th round picks isn't that they hit often but that they are low cost chances of snagging additional depth.

New England hoards low round picks like crazy because they understand this. Rick Smith and Bill O'Brien do the opposite
 
We wasted a roster spot and a small chance of a 7th rounder hitting. Who knows, maybe it could have been ol depth we desperately need.

From his time in New England O'Brien should have known Mallet was a waste of time and resources.

I think the risk is/was about equal to a 7th rounder hitting.
 
The point of 7th round picks isn't that they hit often but that they are low cost chances of snagging additional depth.

New England hoards low round picks like crazy because they understand this. Rick Smith and Bill O'Brien do the opposite
NE gathers late round picks so they can be used as bargaining chips to move around in rounds 2-5.
 
The Patriots have drafted 2 seventh rounders every year except one since 2012 for a total of 11.

The Texans? 3

I wonder why our backups aren't even replacement level.
 
I'm not defending anything except the circumstances of the example provided and your obvious reading comprehension issues.

Let's try this S-L-O-W-L-Y. Regardless of who was at QB, that wasn't the time for touch passes. It was time to zip the damn ball downfield. Passes longer than 20 yards are very rarely "touch" passes.

Please regale me with all the QBs you've seen coming back from 17 point deficits in under half a quarter with delicate touch passing. I'll wait.

Indeed I am.
 
The Patriots have drafted 2 seventh rounders every year except one since 2012 for a total of 11.

The Texans? 3

I wonder why our backups aren't even replacement level.

Pro football reference has it as 8 and none are providing anything for the Patriots at this point. Getting lots of 7ths is about as smart as planning on getting rich buying scratch offs.
 
Pro football reference has it as 8 and none are providing anything for the Patriots at this point. Getting lots of 7ths is about as smart as planning on getting rich buying scratch offs.

Julian Edelmann was a 7th rounder in 2009.

Alphonso Dennard started several games for them and had 5 picks. He started 4 playoff games.

Brandon Deaderick played several games and contributed, including playoffs.

You don't need to hit on many to make it worthwhile. All you want is quality depth, and patriots have had more 7th rounders play games here and there. It's better than calling up Antonio Smith.

And if they become starters (a la Newton or possibly Covington) that's just a bonus
 
Julian Edelmann was a 7th rounder in 2009.

Alphonso Dennard started several games for them and had 5 picks. He started 4 playoff games.

Brandon Deaderick played several games and contributed, including playoffs.

You don't need to hit on many to make it worthwhile. All you want is quality depth, and patriots have had more 7th rounders play games here and there. It's better than calling up Antonio Smith.

And if they become starters (a la Newton or possibly Covington) that's just a bonus

Most teams would like to mimic the Patriots success stories...

And the Texans luck with late round picks and udfa as well
 
so you're saying there is no good trades?

No definitely not, but when you trade away assets you need to be very careful. It's very hard to know exactly how picks will turn out so it's better to just have more in general.

Nix and Strong are perfect examples of the downside risk of trading away assets too aggressively. Who knows what the 5 picks would have been if we had kept them
 
Julian Edelmann was a 7th rounder in 2009.

Alphonso Dennard started several games for them and had 5 picks. He started 4 playoff games.

Brandon Deaderick played several games and contributed, including playoffs.

Edelman and Daederick are outside your time frame.

We have Hal with 5 picks.

It's better than calling up Antonio Smith.

According to you. I see no rational argument for it, but ok.

All we have to do is stop trading our picks away. It's a numbers game

No actually it's not. Quantity over quality rarely works.
 
Edelman and Daederick are outside your time frame.

We have Hal with 5 picks.



According to you. I see no rational argument for it, but ok.



No actually it's not. Quantity over quality rarely works.

I'm not sure what you mean by time frame. My initial post just went back a few years to illustrate that the Pats value 7th round picks. But to really evaluate the strategy you need a longer time frame.

Edelmann is still playing for the Pats after all.

Studies have shown that quantity in drafts matters more because no one can predict where the quality is. Of course if you told me Rick Smith and Bill O'Brien had an eye for talent better than anyone else then I'd agree trading up is a good idea.

But even Bill Belichick doesn't believe that about himself
 
I'm not sure what you mean by time frame. My initial post just went back a few years to illustrate that the Pats value 7th round picks. But to really evaluate the strategy you need a longer time frame.

And you mentioned since 2012 - a time frame.

Studies have shown that quantity in drafts matters more because no one can predict where the quality is.

Please cite.
 
And you mentioned since 2012 - a time frame.



Please cite.

Below is an article that mentions the study.

The study itself is here:
https://opimweb.wharton.upenn.edu/files/?whdmsaction=public:main.file&fileID=6386


http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-team-can-beat-the-draft/
No Team Can Beat the Draft


By Neil Paine

Filed under 2014 NFL Draft

During this week’s NFL draft, 32 team executives will select 256 prospects in the most-hyped, most-scrutinized event of its kind. Whatever happens will make or break talent-evaluation careers, and help plot the course of each franchise over the next decade or more. And it all revolves around what is essentially a very public set of predictions.

Like traders bidding for commodities and speculating on their relative worth, each pick a team makes is essentially a statement about how it expects a player’s career to turn out. Overvalue the commodity (i.e., draft a guy too early) and you end up with a bust; undervalue it and risk another team walking away with a prized prospect. Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

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The efficient-market hypothesis states that — with certain caveats — markets are informationally efficient. Since any one investor theoretically operates with the same set of information as any other,2 the EMH claims that no individual can consistently achieve risk-adjusted returns in excess of the market-wide average. This conclusion, most notably proposed by University of Chicago professor Eugene Fama in the 1960s, isn’t perfect (it can’t explain speculative bubbles, for instance), but it’s a testament to the power of an ideal market.

The NFL’s draft market differs slightly from the financial markets Fama analyzed. There are legal opportunities for teams to gather inside knowledge through prospect workouts and interviews, which a buyer can’t do with stocks.3 But a large proportion of the information teams use to make their picks — tape of prospects’ college games, their college statistics, biometric data from the pre-draft combine — is available to every team. Teams, of course, differ in how they interpret this data, which is why not everybody wants the same players. That’s where teams’ scouting and, increasingly, quantitative analysis departments come in.

If certain teams had superior talent-evaluation abilities then we’d expect them to achieve a greater return on their draft picks than the average team, after adjusting for where the picks were made in the draft. But if the NFL Draft follows the same general guidelines financial markets do (at least, according to the efficient-market hypothesis), there wouldn’t be much of a relationship between a team or an executive’s drafting performance4 across multiple years’ worth of drafts.

We can test this empirically. Remember when we said the NFL draft does a good job of sorting prospects? We know this because there’s a strong relationship between the performance of a player and where he was picked in the draft.5

paine-nfldraftefficientmarket-01.png


Fluctuations happen all the time around the red line, which represents a smoothed average value for each pick slot based on the typical NFL performance of players drafted there. Players routinely play better — and worse — than these long-term averages. But teams can’t regularly predict which prospects will outperform or underperform relative to where they were drafted.

paine-nfldraftefficientmarket-1.png


If teams showed any consistency in their ability to out-draft the market, it would show up in these deviations. But, as Chase Stuart of FootballPerspective.com has also found, there’s practically no correlation6 between a team’s picking performance from one draft to the next.

Perhaps limiting ourselves to the team level isn’t quite the best way to look at draft returns. After all, this is as much (or more) a question of the predictive powers of individual decision-makers, and teams can churn through those folks rather quickly. We wouldn’t want to hold it against one general manager that his predecessor made poor selections.

Luckily, Pro-Football-Reference.com keeps an executives database,7which allows us to isolate the draft decisions of individual general managers. This means we can perform the same test at the GM level as well — and, once again, there’s virtually no relationship8 between how well a GM drafts, relative to average, from one year to the next.

paine-nfldraftefficientmarket-2.png


Even if we look at executives’ drafts in three-year segments — which is, by definition, conditional on a GM retaining his job for six seasons (an eternity in the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world of the NFL) — the relationship between drafting performance from one three-year span and the next is weak9 at best.

paine-nfldraftefficientmarket-31.png


While some veteran general managers were able to sustain positive returns above average over six or more years, even theirs were not unqualified success stories. Along with former Green Bay Packers GM Ron Wolf, ex-San Diego Chargers GM A.J. Smith and ex-Indianapolis Colts GM Bill Polian were the three best drafting executives in our data set on a per-pick basis.10 But as Pro-Football-Reference’s Stuart notes, despite Smith and Polian’s track records, both were fired from their posts after a series of poor drafts.

In fact, Polian and Smith merely might have been examples of what’s called the “Wyatt Earp Effect.” It’s named for 19th-century gunslinger, whose fame came from the seeming improbability of an individual surviving countless consecutive gunfights. Any feat seems improbable in hindsight from the perspective of the people involved, but given the volume of gunfights in the Old West, the odds were actually pretty high that someone would make it through a large number of battles unscathed, simply by chance alone.

Likewise, even over a half-decade or more, some GMs would appear to beat average by chance alone. But as we saw with Polian and Smith, eventually that luck runs out.

All of this means that the NFL draft’s mechanism for sorting players is largely an efficient system, in the sense that none of its individual actors have the ability to “beat the market” in the long run. Some do see short-term deviations from the mean, but those prove unsustainable over larger samples. The implication is that much of what each team gets from its draft picks — the very entryway to the league for almost every NFL player — is determined by pure chance.

This doesn’t have to be a knock on the NFL’s talent evaluators. The author Michael Mauboussin has written about what he calls the “Paradox of Skill,” a counterintuitive theory that states that as the aggregate skill level of a market’s participants increases, the proportion of outcomes attributable to luck also increases. Put another way, the smaller the variation in skill between competitors, the more opportunity for randomness to be a differentiating factor. By this reading, NFL general managers are the victims of their own obsessive pre-draft preparations — their skill level has increased so much that only the effects of chance remain.

But there’s another interpretation. Cade Massey and Richard Thaler’sseminal paper (PDF), “The Loser’s Curse,” argues that NFL decision-makers shouldn’t be so quick to attribute the apparent efficiency of the draft market to an abundance of picking skill. To do so is hubris.

As Massey and Thaler point out, the more that teams study players and gather information about them, the more assured they become in their ability to differentiate among prospects of roughly the same talent level. This leads to overconfidence, and the tendency to make what they call “non-regressive predictions” — forecasts that don’t appropriately account for the uncertainty in projecting college players’ performance in the NFL — about the future value of potential draftees.

This isn’t hard to show empirically, either. After examining 1,078 draft-pick swaps between 1983 and 2008, Massey and Thaler found that teams’ behavior when trading picks corresponds incredibly well to the famous draft-value chart popularized by former Dallas Cowboys and Miami Dolphins coach Jimmy Johnson.

Like our earlier draft-pick value curve, Johnson’s table of draft values — or, as it’s called in NFL circles, “The Chart” — provides estimates for the relative worth of each pick. Although it’s been 15 years since Johnson last coached in the NFL, teams still rely on his chart as a guideline in the hopes of extracting equal (or better) value out of trades. It also gives us great insight into the overconfidence phenomenon Massey and Thaler wrote about. Here’s the Johnson chart, recalibrated to the same scale as Approximate Value.

paine-nfldraftefficientmarket-4.png


While the empirical chart reflects the inherent uncertainty of draft-day success (even for high picks), and tails off gradually as the draft progresses, Johnson’s chart assigns extremely large value to high picks, and slopes downward sharply after the top 10 to 20 picks — implying that the drop-off in talent between a high first-rounder and any other pick is immense.

If The Chart is an accurate gauge of how teams value each draft slot, then NFL decision-makers place an incredible premium on high draft picks. But the huge disparity between the observed performance of each pick and its apparent market value supports Massey and Thaler’s hypothesis that teams are not being realistic about their own ability to differentiate among prospects.

They should be. Research by TheBigLead’s Jason Lisk (then writing for Pro-Football-Reference) shows that teams with top-five picks in the draft correctly identify the player who goes on to have the best career only 10.3 percent of the time, a success rate that only gets worse as things progress deeper into the draft.11 So a team that believes it could somehow beat the market if only it controlled its own fate can end up doing more harm than good if it trades away lower picks to move up in the draft. This is especially the case if a team uses Johnson’s unrealistically optimistic chart as justification for such behavior.

Similarly, Massey and Thaler point out that even if estimates of a player’s potential fluctuate around his true value in an unbiased way, the team whose evaluation is off by the most on the high side will fall victim to the “Winner’s Curse” — and draft the player at a much higher pick than he merits.

These cognitive biases are working against most if not all teams, and their presence suggests that there is room to improve the drafting process, even if no team has historically demonstrated an ability to out-predict the crowd over a long period of time.

Keep that in mind when you watch the draft Thursday, Friday and Saturday. While the odds are that your team won’t be able to use the proceedings as a springboard to a series of highly successful future drafts, there’s always the hope that it can improve its chances with a more rational process. And if that fails — hey, there’s always luck.

Correction (May 8, 2:45 p.m.): An earlier version of this story misstated the number of picks in the NFL draft as 224. The number is in fact 256 when including the 32 compensatory picks.

Neil Paine is a senior sportswriter for FiveThirtyEight. @neil_paine
 
Yeah, none of that supports hoarding 7th rounders. Of note however is the graphic showing the draft pick value chart undervalues mid round picks with the deviation being greatest in the 3rd. So if you are going to trade up or down doing it to get mid round picks increases your odds.
 
Here's another one.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...ng-draft-picks-spending-in-free-agency-losing

  • The 3 most successful NFL teams over the last 3 seasons are the Seahawks, Patriots and Broncos. Each team has traded down at least twice as often as they traded up in the past 5 drafts.
  • Four of the 5 least successful NFL teams over the last 3 seasons are the Jaguars, Buccaneers, Titans and Browns. Combined, they traded up 28 times and down only 6 times over the last 5 drafts! That’s 6 trades up to 1 down on average, for 5 consecutive years.
That’s NOT a coincidence. Its not just the direction of the trade (and the inherent value lost) its the total picks the teams then have to work with. To move up, you’re giving up more picks than you’re getting in return. It means you have less total picks to work with, and less forgiveness for the inevitable poor selections that come for any team on draft day.

Total Draft Picks Used vs Wins
Over the last 3 yrs:

  • 10 teams used 27+ draft picks and 6 (60%) have winning records.
  • 22 teams used 26 or fewer draft picks and 6 (27%) have winning records.
If you don’t have draft picks you can’t adequately build thru the draft, and are forced to spend more money to acquire (what you believe are) players to help you win games thru free agency. If you have a lot of draft picks, and use them efficiently, even though you will inevitably miss on a few, your team will be stocked with younger, less expensive players who can outperform older, more expensive veteran free agents from other teams.

This is a concept the best teams in the NFL understand, such as Seattle, New England, Green Bay, Pittsburgh and Baltimore. Its not that they seem to simply be lucky to always see success, or at least very brief periods of difficult. They do the right things in the draft, in free agency, in other front office decisions, which allows them to rely on the talent they’ve brought in, the coaching, and the player development to bountifully produce wins, year in and year out.
 
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That's some stellar analysis - compare the already top teams in the league to the league's already cellar dwellers over an incredibly short time period.

And the point I differed with was very narrow, the hoarding of 7th rounders. I've no problem endorsing a preference of trading out of the 1st to get multiple mid round picks over spending multiple mid round picks to trade into or up in the 1st.
 
Pro football reference has it as 8 and none are providing anything for the Patriots at this point. Getting lots of 7ths is about as smart as planning on getting rich buying scratch offs.

My Grandmother won $6,000 on one of those about six or seven years ago.
 
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Agreed but no one can coach up this garbage offensive line

We'll see. we were saying the same thing this time last year about our OL & they started to look much better... about this same time last season.

I know I'm in the minority but I'm liking what I'm seeing on Mancz & Sua'filo individually. Surely these coaches can get them playing better more consistently together.

Then DBrown76 has to pick it up.

I don't know what's going on with Jeff Allen.

Newton, yeah he's got his issues, but he's consistent. Easy enough to plan help & get the protection we need. & like you said, he's a 7th round pick... ought to be worth at least an AFCCG appearance.
 
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