Deshaun Watson - Out for the Year - Torn ACL

[Mr teX]

NFL is littered with a lot of poor coaches with bad records that had bad qbs and none of them grew up to be bill belichick.

Yeah but even good coaches can be made to look incompetent with bad qb play and vice versa which is the point I believe CnD was trying to make. People still wonder how and why the Browns let go of arguably the greatest HC of all time 20 years after it happened.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

Yeah but even good coaches can be made to look incompetent with bad qb play and vice versa which is the point I believe CnD was trying to make. People still wonder how and why the Browns let go of arguably the greatest HC of all time 20 years after it happened.

Right and the point I’m making is that hoping OB turns into Belichik are about the same odds as trying to find the next Brady in the 6th rd.

Why bring up anamolies?

 

[TheMatrix31]

........

 

[JB]

You can look at a lot of other coaches and see a parallel in success with quality QB vs JAG QB.

If we don't know by now in Houston after watching our teams have no chance without a quality signal caller ..... that position makes or breaks a teams chances at success. You do need other parts around him but without that quality QB you may as well play for draft position cause you aint winning in the post season.

Just think of the Luv Ya Blue era if we would have had Montana instead of Pastorini...

 

[Corrosion]

Then I guess he shouldn't have picked scrubs. His inability to evaluate QBs is on him.

Part of the problem was a lack of talent in free agency .... FitzTragic and Hoyerable were the cream of the crop in those seasons .... They just didn't do anything draft wise that helped the situation either .... avoiding HWWNBMv2.0 , letting Minny & NE jump ahead of them to take BottledWater and JimmyG (not to mention cutting Case Keenum).

He did get more out of both Fitztragic & Hoyerable than I (and many others) expected .... Fitzy breaking a leg & Hoyerable just couldn't compete with the big boys in the playoffs.

Bottom line , there's a reason those two were available in FA and good or even potentially good QB's (Kirk Cousins) aren't .... Teams will franchise those that are good r potentially good so even if they cant come to terms or don't want to play there .... they don't hit the market.

 

[Texansballer74]

They couldn't control what other teams do. So how did they LET Minny and NE leapfrog them? I really don't understand that type of mindset. Only thing that comes to mind is you'r trying to spice up your argument.

 

[PapaL]

If finding a franchise QB was as easy as it apparently is here, every team would have at least one; even Cleveland.

 

[Double Barrel]

As of Feb 2017, in Belichick's 17 seasons with the Patriots, he is 225-80 (counting playoffs) with a 4-2 record in Super Bowls and 15 seasons of double-digit victories. Brady is 207-61 as a starter, counting a 24-9 record in the postseason........

...........But -- and it's a big but -- Belichick is 41-55 in his career in other games when Brady wasn't his starter, including his record with the Cleveland Browns and in 2000 when Brady was third string on the Patriots.
link

That sort of black and white presentation of stats does not reveal the full truth. Belichick built the foundation of what would eventually become the World Champion Baltimore Ravens. Ozzie Newsome gives Belichick full credit, too. Watch A Football Life about the '95 Cleveland Browns for a full understanding of what Belichick did for that franchise.

Besides, we can find other examples of HoF coaches that had losing seasons without their HoF QBs. Look up Bill Walsh, for example.

If finding a franchise QB was as easy as it apparently is here, every team would have at least one; even Cleveland.

It's not easy. Which is why many fans have advocated that the Texans use high draft picks to get talent and find one. They never have until 2017 when the owner demanded it.

Ultimately, they could not find a franchise QB when they never bothered to look for one. You don't get a chance to win a race by not racing.

 

[Mr teX]

Right and the point I’m making is that hoping OB turns into Belichik are about the same odds as trying to find the next Brady in the 6th rd.

Why bring up anamolies?

You're right, The success Belichick has had is an anomaly & noone is trying to make the case that this is remotely likely to happen with BoB. The trend of HC's needing a good qb to help take his team to that next level is not however. & as the stats CnD show, even the great Bill Belichick was not exempt from that.

 

[Mr teX]

It's not easy. Which is why many fans have advocated that the Texans use high draft picks to get talent and find one. They never have until 2017 when the owner demanded it.

Ultimately, they could not find a franchise QB when they never bothered to look for one. You don't get a chance to win a race by not racing.

Well you can't really say that now can you? We know that in at least 1 of the FA periods prior to the draft of Watson, we got what was thought to be 1 of the best/hotest prospect of the period in Oz (). We also know that in 2 of the 3 drafts BoB has been here we've been jumped 3 times with 11th hour trades 1 to 2 picks before it was time for us to pick. Now, you can't really control that, but for all we know Bridgewater, Grappolo or Mahomes could've been 1 of our guys. The only talented guy we truly just bypassed was Derek Carr...& given the history there you can kinda see why that was. I guess you can say Bortles too since we could've selected him instead of Clowney.

In any event, can any of us complain about who we did wind up selecting when Smith finally got smart & moved up to take Watson instead of standing pat like he did back in 2014? We may have just gotten the best of all the qbs prospects of the last 2 drafts.......of course with Smith it was probably by accident & chance rather than skill.

 

[Corrosion]

They couldn't control what other teams do. So how did they LET Minny and NE leapfrog them? I really don't understand that type of mindset. Only thing that comes to mind is you'r trying to spice up your argument.

Not at all .... Sitting idle and waiting for a guy to fall .... when you know there are other teams behind you who have the same need - One of them is likely to make a move.
This position is so critical that you go get that guy if you don't have him - damn some draft picks that you use to get it done.

We paid a hefty premium for Watson .... anyone complaining ?

 

[Double Barrel]

Well you can't really say that now can you? We know that in at least 1 of the FA periods prior to the draft of Watson, we got what was thought to be 1 of the best/hotest prospect of the period in Oz (). .

And why did we think that?

Oh, I know! BECAUSE THE HEAD COACH SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!

We also know that in 2 of the 3 drafts BoB has been here we've been jumped 3 times with 11th hour trades 1 to 2 picks before it was time for us to pick. Now, you can't really control that, but for all we know Bridgewater, Grappolo or Mahomes could've been 1 of our guys. The only talented guy we truly just bypassed was Derek Carr...& given the history there you can kinda see why that was. I guess you can say Bortles too since we could've selected him instead of Clowney.

In any event, can any of us complain about who we did wind up selecting when Smith finally got smart & moved up to take Watson instead of standing pat like he did back in 2014? We may have just gotten the best of all the qbs prospects of the last 2 drafts.......of course with Smith it was probably by accident & chance rather than skill.

So your blind squirrel finally found a nut and you're believing that they are competent enough to build a team around him in spite of clear evidence otherwise?

They should have been drafting a QB high since Kubiak was here and Schaub had an injury that was predicted to end his career.

Rick Smith has been here since 2006 and he's just NOW making a deal to draft a QB high?

That's a terrible GM regardless of how you try to spin it.

 

[infantrycak]

Not at all .... Sitting idle and waiting for a guy to fall .... when you know there are other teams behind you who have the same need - One of them is likely to make a move.
This position is so critical that you go get that guy if you don't have him - damn some draft picks that you use to get it done.

We paid a hefty premium for Watson .... anyone complaining ?

NE taking a QB that high was a surprise to many. Minnesota was an obvious risk.

 

[Mr teX]

And why did we think that?

Oh, I know! BECAUSE THE HEAD COACH SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!



So your blind squirrel finally found a nut and you're believing that they are competent enough to build a team around him in spite of clear evidence otherwise?

They should have been drafting a QB high since Kubiak was here and Schaub had an injury that was predicted to end his career.

Rick Smith has been here since 2006 and he's just NOW making a deal to draft a QB high?

That's a terrible GM regardless of how you try to spin it.

Eh when u think about it, The search for franchise qbs is nothing but a crapshoot as it is so the blind squirrel finding a nut analogy applies to every GM and HC in the league.

The market in FA also doesn’t just create itself either so the thought that Oz could be a young upcoming franchise qb wasn’t just b/c of what OB said about him. For 1 he was a 2nd round pick, 2 there was a thought that b/c he’d learned at the knee of manning for a couple of years, he couldn’t have had a better mentor. 3, we now know Elway was prepared to give Him 16 million per to come back and be their starter...Oz just didn’t bother to pick up his phone although we all wish now that he would’ve. Aside from all that though.....again.......what is the HC supposed to say to fans and the media when the GM signs the guy to a deal that all but said they were bringing him in to be the future of the franchise?

Somehow him saying “Yeah we signed him to this monstrosity of an offer, but that’s not my guy....” Doesnt quite inspire confidence in anyone that they’re confident he is/was the guy. Everyone in the know knew Jeff Fisher didn’t want VY...but what did Fisher say & do when he spoke to the media about VY and those rumors? He’s presented a united front, like pretty much all HC would do in those situations.

As far as Smith, im not trying to spin anything with him. hes has 10 years and there’s enough evidence there to show it’s time to move on.

 

[steelbtexan]

They couldn't control what other teams do. So how did they LET Minny and NE leapfrog them? I really don't understand that type of mindset. Only thing that comes to mind is you'r trying to spice up your argument.

Well apparently Ricky learned something since after missing out on Jimmy G he traded up for McKinney, Strong, Martin,Fuller.

 

[steelbtexan]

If finding a franchise QB was as easy as it apparently is here, every team would have at least one; even Cleveland.

It's not rocket science. You pick a guy you like (JimmyG in my case) let him play and in a couples of years you should know whether you have a franchise qb. Even if you find your qb you should still pick a developmental guy every 3 years. How many developmental guys has Ricky picked in rounds 1-4 in over a decade?

 

[Mr teX]

It's not rocket science. You pick a guy you like (JimmyG in my case) let him play and in a couples of years you should know whether you have a franchise qb. Even if you find your qb you should still pick a developmental guy every 3 years. How many developmental guys has Ricky picked in rounds 1-4 in over a decade?

Apparently it is when more than half the league can’t even land 1 guy. This is all while fans become more and more impatient.

The reality of it is is that it’s much more than that. Stop oversimplifying it.

 

[steelbtexan]

Is it really oversimplifying it to say draft one until you find one?

Get a guy like Kubiak/Jeff Christiansen and they can find you a QB.

 

[infantrycak]

Well apparently Ricky learned something since after missing out on Jimmy G he traded up for McKinney, Strong, Martin,Fuller.

Goes with the HC. With Kubiak they favored trading down. With OB they have favor trading up.

Favored =/= always.

It's not rocket science. You pick a guy you like (JimmyG in my case) let him play and in a couples of years you should know whether you have a franchise qb. Even if you find your qb you should still pick a developmental guy every 3 years. How many developmental guys has Ricky picked in rounds 1-4 in over a decade?

Most team are more like NE - real low almost throw away picks while the starting QB is young with progressively higher picks as he gets older.

Injury obviously changes that formula.

We should have been looking 1st 3 rds since the 2012 draft.

Where we differ most is HC involvement. I think both Kubiak & OB opposed high draft picks on QBs. I think Kubiak thought if need be he could crappy Manning & Oz with Schaub & Keenum and wanted to upgrade pieces to make a run. OB is just about allergic to rookie QBs. Not saying RS would have made a good choice(s) but if not talked out of it I think would have drafted 1 or more QBs in the 1st 3 rds 2012-16.

I don't believe a former DB (briefly) has ever driven the bus on QBs over the opinion of offensive HCs.

 

[Mr teX]

Is it really oversimplifying it to say draft one until you find one?

Get a guy like Kubiak/Jeff Christiansen and they can find you a QB.

Yes it is oversimplifying it...just ask Cleveland. Fit...talent...timing...availability of talent vs availability of talent elsewhere that could help your team....all that stuff matters man. It’s not just as simple as this guy can play the position we should be able to compete now.

As it is you got all these Keenum guys coming out of the woodwork b/c of his play THIS year...saying we should’ve kept him. Well those people aren’t really factoring in the timing of his arrival in Minny. Had he arrived just 1 year prior when the Vikings o-line was amongst the worst in the league you think he’d be putting up the numbers he’s putting up this year?

You can find game managers like Keenum fairly easy if you’ve got adequate talent elsewhere to keep him afloat...what everyone strikes out on repeatedly is finding that guy that elevates everyone else’s play.

 

[Bulls on Parade]

steelb, Bill O'Brien liked Tom Savage more than Jimmy Garoppolo in that 2014 draft class. He was ecstatic he slipped into the fourth round. To be fair, Tom Savage came on strong in all the pre-draft workouts coming out of Pitt. We can blame O'Brien for not valuing Jimmy G a lot higher or Rick Smith for not selecting him in the second round but that's all in the past man. You've been talking up Jimmy Garoppolo in several threads like he's a future Hall of Famer already. If you like him that much go cheer for the 49ers my friend. Maybe you miss Kyle Shanahan's offense here in Houston.

All I know is we've got a pretty damn good quarterback in Deshaun Watson. We should be focusing on him getting that leg stronger than ever and having a monster 2018 season. I could care less about Jimmy Garoppolo to be honest with you.

 

[steelbtexan]

Yes it is oversimplifying it...just ask Cleveland. Fit...talent...timing...availability of talent vs availability of talent elsewhere that could help your team....all that stuff matters man. It’s not just as simple as this guy can play the position we should be able to compete now.

As it is you got all these Keenum guys coming out of the woodwork b/c of his play THIS year...saying we should’ve kept him. Well those people aren’t really factoring in the timing of his arrival in Minny. Had he arrived just 1 year prior when the Vikings o-line was amongst the worst in the league you think he’d be putting up the numbers he’s putting up this year?

You can find game managers like Keenum fairly easy if you’ve got adequate talent elsewhere to keep him afloat...what everyone strikes out on repeatedly is finding that guy that elevates everyone else’s play.

You improve your odds with guys like Christensen/Kubiak trying to find a QB and the GM listening to them.

I liked Keenum but never thought he was a franchise QB. Like Prescott, Keenum's play this yr proves an OL is the most important part of the team. QB play and OL play go hand in hand. Great OL play also helps keep the defense fresh by keeping them off the field. Imagine if Ricky had a plan that included drafting Watson and Eflien in the 3rd and adding Reiff/Remmers in FA. I bet the Texans would have a much better record even with Watson getting hurt and the secondary sucking.

 

[steelbtexan]

steelb, Bill O'Brien liked Tom Savage more than Jimmy Garoppolo in that 2014 draft class. He was ecstatic he slipped into the fourth round. To be fair, Tom Savage came on strong in all the pre-draft workouts coming out of Pitt. We can blame O'Brien for not valuing Jimmy G a lot higher or Rick Smith for not selecting him in the second round but that's all in the past man. You've been talking up Jimmy Garoppolo in several threads like he's a future Hall of Famer already. If you like him that much go cheer for the 49ers my friend. Maybe you miss Kyle Shanahan's offense here in Houston.

All I know is we've got a pretty damn good quarterback in Deshaun Watson. We should be focusing on him getting that leg stronger than ever and having a monster 2018 season. I could care less about Jimmy Garoppolo to be honest with you.

I like following guys that I think are future all pro's that I called in college and see if I'm right. I also love seeing how Kyle builds an offense with inferior talent and watch how his offense grows as talent is added. Yes, I like watching the 49ers even before they added Jimmy G, but that doesn't mean I'm not a Texans fan 1st and foremost and that I dont want Watson to stay healthy and become a future HOF'er.

I have the same disagreement with Cak about wether BOB wanted Jimmy G and Ricky got cute thinking he could get both XSF and Jimmy G. # Failure

 

[JB]

steelb, Maybe you miss Kyle Shanahan's offense here in Houston.

I don't know about my friend, but I damn sure do

 

[Corrosion]

Yes it is oversimplifying it...just ask Cleveland. Fit...talent...timing...availability of talent vs availability of talent elsewhere that could help your team....all that stuff matters man. It’s not just as simple as this guy can play the position we should be able to compete now.

As it is you got all these Keenum guys coming out of the woodwork b/c of his play THIS year...saying we should’ve kept him. Well those people aren’t really factoring in the timing of his arrival in Minny. Had he arrived just 1 year prior when the Vikings o-line was amongst the worst in the league you think he’d be putting up the numbers he’s putting up this year?

You can find game managers like Keenum fairly easy if you’ve got adequate talent elsewhere to keep him afloat...what everyone strikes out on repeatedly is finding that guy that elevates everyone else’s play.

Would Savage fare as well in Minny as Keenum ? What about any number of other QB's none of us want ?

You cant take anything away from a guy who's won 11 games in a single season in this league. Dude had the talent , just needed the opportunity to show it , didn't really get that here as the team just wasn't very good and he was still wet behind the ears.

 

[Arky]

I suppose another point that needs to be made here is that most of the time, a young QB needs some development time. Real live, game action. The undrafted Keenum, I believe, snuck in enough development time that he started to figure out this NFL thing. Remember how helpless he looked against the blitz in Houston? He frequently beats the blitz, nowadays. He didn't deserve to start out his career 0-8 but that's what happened. He did his job well in several of those losses. He was 9-15 as a starter with the Texans and Rams. Since joining Minnesota, he's 9-3 as a starter.

See Keenum's teammate of last year Jared Goff. 1st round pick begins his career 0-7, lookin' like a bust. Some playing time, a new coach and his sophomore year is looking much better (10-4). Like night and day better.

If the Texans had gone the draft-till-you-find-one route in the post Schaub era, say, a late 1st or 2nd rounder, the young man would have needed some development time to figure it all out. The whole team would have to go through the growing pains. In the end, sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't. I think the Texans just opted to go the "proven" backup route instead of the just-draft-a-guy route during this period.... Who knows how the alternate reality would have turned out? What we do know is that they did actually win the AFC South twice and that counts for something.

The thing about Watson is he is still a bit raw but in his 6½ games, he was already showing finished product qualities which makes his upside so wildly sky high....

 

[OptimisticTexan]

Yeah, finding a "Franchise QB" is a very easy task...hell, shouldn't it always be every QB drafted in RD1? Every talent advisor and team must have thought highly of the prospective QB's potential when they drafted him in the 1st round, shouldn't that make him a lock for success. In reality, no....b/c the majority of teams who have drafted early in RD1 are coming off horrible seasons and generally lack talent in multiple areas.

The second tier of QB's who have been drafted later in RD1 are usually lucky since they're falling into a team that is enjoying success and could at some point, be just a QB away. Basically, the foundation has been set for the success of a young QB.

The Texans have been in this situation 2 times, once with David Carr and now with Deshaun Watson. What were the similarities? In both instances that Texans got a top tier QB only to have him stand behind an OL that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemies. What is it with the Texans mentality of consistently relegating their OL to 2nd or 3rd tier status?

Now, I'm not under the influence of the old-fashioned running game at all cost but a better than average OL and strong running game can surely set-up today's pass happy offenses mush better than not having a dominant running game and a dominant running game is predicated on a stout OL. How did Schaub do when there wasn't an Arien Foster? How did Keenum fair when the OL dropped a notch and Foster was injured? Hell, how has Prescott done without Elliott? In regards to the Texans, anyone want to venture down the speculative path as to what Watson could do in the NFL if he had a stout OL and RB who could hit 1,500+ yards? IMHO, the defense would only need to learn how to hold leads.

So, for me, I'm questioning what was going through RS's and evidently O'Brien's minds when they traded away future picks and made no moves in the draft or FA to bolster their OL for the QB they obviously considered to be their "Franchise QB"? Now, their OL is in total shambles, they have no picks in the first two rounds of the draft nor do they possess a RD5 pick and FA market is looking really thin. Unless this braintrust can unlock the potential on 1 or 2 FA OL and somehow find some hidden OL gems in the draft, Watson could be in a situation much like the one Carr found himself in when the OL was treated as a secondary need.

I'm willing to say, that if I were given a chance to build an NFL Franchise from scratch, my focus would begin with identifying top position coaches, especially for the trenches. Second, I would draft and make smart FA moves to solidly the trenches as quickly as possible. Third, I would nail down RB's and TE's. Most important, if I felt that the guys I've targeted would still be on the board if I treated down, then trade down I would do while accumulating more picks. The beauty of this process, I could at any point sign a veteran FA QB to hold down or bridge the development time of a new QB while this primary group of trench-men develop. Is it an exact science...no but neither is investing a top pick or picks in a RD1 prospect. I will always be a firm believer that a great OL has a better chance at making a great QB than a great QB has at making a lousy OL look amazing. Before anyone types in Watson...he was 3-4 behind this OL instead of 7-0. But, like I mentioned above, what could Watson do in this offense with a top OL and a 1,500 yard RB? Hell, better yet, what would that mean to Hopkins and Fuller?

 

[infantrycak]

How did Schaub do when there wasn't an Arien Foster?

He led the league in passing. (30th ranked rushing)

 

[steelbtexan]

Yeah, finding a "Franchise QB" is a very easy task...hell, shouldn't it always be every QB drafted in RD1? Every talent advisor and team must have thought highly of the prospective QB's potential when they drafted him in the 1st round, shouldn't that make him a lock for success. In reality, no....b/c the majority of teams who have drafted early in RD1 are coming off horrible seasons and generally lack talent in multiple areas.

The second tier of QB's who have been drafted later in RD1 are usually lucky since they're falling into a team that is enjoying success and could at some point, be just a QB away. Basically, the foundation has been set for the success of a young QB.

The Texans have been in this situation 2 times, once with David Carr and now with Deshaun Watson. What were the similarities? In both instances that Texans got a top tier QB only to have him stand behind an OL that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemies. What is it with the Texans mentality of consistently relegating their OL to 2nd or 3rd tier status?

Now, I'm not under the influence of the old-fashioned running game at all cost but a better than average OL and strong running game can surely set-up today's pass happy offenses mush better than not having a dominant running game and a dominant running game is predicated on a stout OL. How did Schaub do when there wasn't an Arien Foster? How did Keenum fair when the OL dropped a notch and Foster was injured? Hell, how has Prescott done without Elliott? In regards to the Texans, anyone want to venture down the speculative path as to what Watson could do in the NFL if he had a stout OL and RB who could hit 1,500+ yards? IMHO, the defense would only need to learn how to hold leads.

So, for me, I'm questioning what was going through RS's and evidently O'Brien's minds when they traded away future picks and made no moves in the draft or FA to bolster their OL for the QB they obviously considered to be their "Franchise QB"? Now, their OL is in total shambles, they have no picks in the first two rounds of the draft nor do they possess a RD5 pick and FA market is looking really thin. Unless this braintrust can unlock the potential on 1 or 2 FA OL and somehow find some hidden OL gems in the draft, Watson could be in a situation much like the one Carr found himself in when the OL was treated as a secondary need.

I'm willing to say, that if I were given a chance to build an NFL Franchise from scratch, my focus would begin with identifying top position coaches, especially for the trenches. Second, I would draft and make smart FA moves to solidly the trenches as quickly as possible. Third, I would nail down RB's and TE's. Most important, if I felt that the guys I've targeted would still be on the board if I treated down, then trade down I would do while accumulating more picks. The beauty of this process, I could at any point sign a veteran FA QB to hold down or bridge the development time of a new QB while this primary group of trench-men develop. Is it an exact science...no but neither is investing a top pick or picks in a RD1 prospect. I will always be a firm believer that a great OL has a better chance at making a great QB than a great QB has at making a lousy OL look amazing. Before anyone types in Watson...he was 3-4 behind this OL instead of 7-0. But, like I mentioned above, what could Watson do in this offense with a top OL and a 1,500 yard RB? Hell, better yet, what would that mean to Hopkins and Fuller?

Great post,

The answer to your question on why the OL was neglected is Ricky is ttrying to get BOB fired. IMHO

I'm a trenches 1st kinda guy. It's like the Texans org didn't learn a thing from the Carr debacle. In short, I agree with you build the trenches then find your skill position guys. Ricky disagrees with us. Who's right? Well looking at Ricky's track record thru 2 different regimes says we are correct and what Ricky does best is kiss the McNair's a**.

Sad part is this season was very predictable.

 

[Mr teX]

Would Savage fare as well in Minny as Keenum ? What about any number of other QB's none of us want ?

You cant take anything away from a guy who's won 11 games in a single season in this league. Dude had the talent , just needed the opportunity to show it , didn't really get that here as the team just wasn't very good and he was still wet behind the ears.

Sure you can, & they do every year when they give guys the dreaded game manager tag . Brad Johnson won like 12 games & threw 26 TDs against 8 picks as the starter for TB the year they won the SB but even in being the starter for that SB winning team, he was never thought of anything more than just a seatwarmer until the teams he played for eventually drafted a more gifted qb...& this is a guy who had a few years prior to that where he was pretty good too.

So to answer your question yes, i believe Savage could fare as well with the o-line, weapons & defense Keenum has at his disposal. Alex Smith, Tyrod Taylor...Jacoby Brissett and probably a whole host of other guys that i'm not thinking of could to.

In any event, the situation in Minny's going to be interesting. Keenum's on a 1 year deal & he'll no doubt have suitors. Will Minny roll the dice and offer him a long term deal or opt to go back to TB.

 

[steelbtexan]

Sure you can, & they do every year when they give guys the dreaded game manager tag . Brad Johnson won like 12 games & threw 26 TDs against 8 picks as the starter for TB the year they won the SB but even in being the starter for that SB winning team, he was never thought of anything more than just a seatwarmer until the teams he played for eventually drafted a more gifted qb...& this is a guy who had a few years prior to that where he was pretty good too.

So to answer your question yes, i believe Savage could fare as well with the o-line, weapons & defense Keenum has at his disposal. Alex Smith, Tyrod Taylor...Jacoby Brissett and probably a whole host of other guys that i'm not thinking of could to.

In any event, the situation in Minny's going to be interesting. Keenum's on a 1 year deal & he'll no doubt have suitors. Will Minny roll the dice and offer him a long term deal or opt to go back to TB.

I would sign Keenum long term.

 

[Mr teX]

Would Savage fare as well in Minny as Keenum ? What about any number of other QB's none of us want ?

You cant take anything away from a guy who's won 11 games in a single season in this league. Dude had the talent , just needed the opportunity to show it , didn't really get that here as the team just wasn't very good and he was still wet behind the ears.

Sure you can, & they do every year when they give guys the dreaded game manager tag . Brad Johnson won like 12 games & threw 26 TDs against 8 picks as the starter for TB the year they won the SB but even in being the starter for that SB winning team, he was never thought of anything more than just a seatwarmer until the teams he played for eventually drafted a more gifted qb...& this is a guy who had a few years prior to that where he was pretty good too.

So to answer your question yes, i believe Savage could fare as well with the o-line, weapons & defense Keenum has at his disposal. Alex Smith, Tyrod Taylor...Jacoby Brissett and probably a whole host of other guys that i'm not thinking of could to.

In any event, the situation in Minny's going to be interesting. Keenum's on a 1 year deal & he'll no doubt have suitors. Will Minny roll the dice and offer him a long term deal or opt to go back to TB.

Yeah, finding a "Franchise QB" is a very easy task...hell, shouldn't it always be every QB drafted in RD1? Every talent advisor and team must have thought highly of the prospective QB's potential when they drafted him in the 1st round, shouldn't that make him a lock for success. In reality, no....b/c the majority of teams who have drafted early in RD1 are coming off horrible seasons and generally lack talent in multiple areas.

The second tier of QB's who have been drafted later in RD1 are usually lucky since they're falling into a team that is enjoying success and could at some point, be just a QB away. Basically, the foundation has been set for the success of a young QB.

The Texans have been in this situation 2 times, once with David Carr and now with Deshaun Watson. What were the similarities? In both instances that Texans got a top tier QB only to have him stand behind an OL that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemies. What is it with the Texans mentality of consistently relegating their OL to 2nd or 3rd tier status?

Now, I'm not under the influence of the old-fashioned running game at all cost but a better than average OL and strong running game can surely set-up today's pass happy offenses mush better than not having a dominant running game and a dominant running game is predicated on a stout OL. How did Schaub do when there wasn't an Arien Foster? How did Keenum fair when the OL dropped a notch and Foster was injured? Hell, how has Prescott done without Elliott? In regards to the Texans, anyone want to venture down the speculative path as to what Watson could do in the NFL if he had a stout OL and RB who could hit 1,500+ yards? IMHO, the defense would only need to learn how to hold leads.

So, for me, I'm questioning what was going through RS's and evidently O'Brien's minds when they traded away future picks and made no moves in the draft or FA to bolster their OL for the QB they obviously considered to be their "Franchise QB"? Now, their OL is in total shambles, they have no picks in the first two rounds of the draft nor do they possess a RD5 pick and FA market is looking really thin. Unless this braintrust can unlock the potential on 1 or 2 FA OL and somehow find some hidden OL gems in the draft, Watson could be in a situation much like the one Carr found himself in when the OL was treated as a secondary need.

I'm willing to say, that if I were given a chance to build an NFL Franchise from scratch, my focus would begin with identifying top position coaches, especially for the trenches. Second, I would draft and make smart FA moves to solidly the trenches as quickly as possible. Third, I would nail down RB's and TE's. Most important, if I felt that the guys I've targeted would still be on the board if I treated down, then trade down I would do while accumulating more picks. The beauty of this process, I could at any point sign a veteran FA QB to hold down or bridge the development time of a new QB while this primary group of trench-men develop. Is it an exact science...no but neither is investing a top pick or picks in a RD1 prospect. I will always be a firm believer that a great OL has a better chance at making a great QB than a great QB has at making a lousy OL look amazing. Before anyone types in Watson...he was 3-4 behind this OL instead of 7-0. But, like I mentioned above, what could Watson do in this offense with a top OL and a 1,500 yard RB? Hell, better yet, what would that mean to Hopkins and Fuller?

With as bad as the Texans o-line is, it's almost impossible to not be much improved with any other personnel than what they have. I expect them to hit FA hard to shore it up this year...which means they'll likely be overpaying someone.

 

[Speedy]

Would Savage fare as well in Minny as Keenum ? What about any number of other QB's none of us want ?

Despite going 0-8 in his 1st go around with the Texans, Keenum showed signs he could play in this league. He had an 8/1 TD/INT ratio in his 1st 4 games. Savage has never had a run come close to that. Hell, Savage still has 3 fewer TDs in his 13 game career than Case in those 1st 4 games.

Not to mention Case coming back and winning 2 games under OB, equaling Savage's career win total. Not saying Case is the next Brady, Rodgers, anything like that, but he certainly can hang around in the tier that Cutler, Flacco, Eli and Palmer are in, if not better. I'm not sure Savage can hang with the better backups in the league, much less starters.

This was just a classic example of the talent evaluation process in that building down on Kirby, being as piss poor as we think it's been the last 11 years. And until that changes, I don't expect them to have much success, on a consistent basis, even with Watson. Oh, they could have any given year where things fall right, like '11 and '12, but it won't last until the process gets better.

 

[Hervoyel]

steelb, Bill O'Brien liked Tom Savage more than Jimmy Garoppolo in that 2014 draft class. He was ecstatic he slipped into the fourth round. To be fair, Tom Savage came on strong in all the pre-draft workouts coming out of Pitt. We can blame O'Brien for not valuing Jimmy G a lot higher or Rick Smith for not selecting him in the second round but that's all in the past man. You've been talking up Jimmy Garoppolo in several threads like he's a future Hall of Famer already. If you like him that much go cheer for the 49ers my friend. Maybe you miss Kyle Shanahan's offense here in Houston.

All I know is we've got a pretty damn good quarterback in Deshaun Watson. We should be focusing on him getting that leg stronger than ever and having a monster 2018 season. I could care less about Jimmy Garoppolo to be honest with you.

If you think Steelb on Garoppolo's jock has been bad wait until Texian gets going if Bortles wins a playoff game. That's going to be an epic crow to end all crows.

 

[Mr teX]

Despite going 0-8 in his 1st go around with the Texans, Keenum showed signs he could play in this league. He had an 8/1 TD/INT ratio in his 1st 4 games. Savage has never had a run come close to that. Hell, Savage still has 3 fewer TDs in his 13 game career than Case in those 1st 4 games.

Not to mention Case coming back and winning 2 games under OB, equaling Savage's career win total. Not saying Case is the next Brady, Rodgers, anything like that, but he certainly can hang around in the tier that Cutler, Flacco, Eli and Palmer are in, if not better. I'm not sure Savage can hang with the better backups in the league, much less starters.

This was just a classic example of the talent evaluation process in that building down on Kirby, being as piss poor as we think it's been the last 11 years. And until that changes, I don't expect them to have much success, on a consistent basis, even with Watson. Oh, they could have any given year where things fall right, like '11 and '12, but it won't last until the process gets better.

Before this year, Case had a full seasons worth of starts under his belt between the Texans and the Rams. His overall TDs to Ints was 23/20 & the record of the teams he started on was sub .500 by a mile. What do we know about all his starts between the Texans & the Rams at the time?

Both teams were overall average to not very good talent wise & he didn't have a lot of help. Fast forward to this year where he's got basically everything he didn't have with the Texans and the Rams from a team standpoint & he miraculously looks serviceable but not so great that it was clearly a mistake letting him go... good. I'm not saying the kid didn't put in alot of work to become better, but it is what it is.

Savage by contrast hasn't even completed a 1/2 seasons worth of starts, & is playing behind one of the worst o-lines in the league. Now, i'm not saying he'd be a stud, but its hard to evaluate him or any qb under the conditions he's had to play under. The only thing to be really garnered is that he's clearly not the guy for the long term. The one game he actually got decent protection he looked................well, decent.

Both guys are about the same imo; tweeners that are probably best as good back-ups that can come in in a pinch and be good spot starters, but not guys who you can envision starting for your team long term without talent around them.

 

[Corrosion]

steelb, Bill O'Brien liked Tom Savage more than Jimmy Garoppolo in that 2014 draft class. He was ecstatic he slipped into the fourth round. To be fair, Tom Savage came on strong in all the pre-draft workouts coming out of Pitt. We can blame O'Brien for not valuing Jimmy G a lot higher or Rick Smith for not selecting him in the second round but that's all in the past man. You've been talking up Jimmy Garoppolo in several threads like he's a future Hall of Famer already. If you like him that much go cheer for the 49ers my friend. Maybe you miss Kyle Shanahan's offense here in Houston.

All I know is we've got a pretty damn good quarterback in Deshaun Watson. We should be focusing on him getting that leg stronger than ever and having a monster 2018 season. I could care less about Jimmy Garoppolo to be honest with you.

You are missing the overall point .... which Speedy nails shut in the following post.

This was just a classic example of the talent evaluation process in that building down on Kirby, being as piss poor as we think it's been the last 11 years. And until that changes, I don't expect them to have much success, on a consistent basis, even with Watson. Oh, they could have any given year where things fall right, like '11 and '12, but it won't last until the process gets better.

And that is the bottom line , just look at the list of worst players in the league at their given positions posted recently ..... along the OL the Texans have a multitude of contenders for worst , secondary same thing , also a contender at RB and honestly should have the worst QB in Savage as no one has been worse or turned the ball over as consistently , dude leads the league in fumbles and hasn't played half the snaps. Too Many Texans on that list.

Sure they have hit on a few superstars .... Watt , Clowney , Mercilus , DHop , Watson and maybe McKinney .... but outside of that the roster is devoid of talent , the rest of the roster is a buncha JAG's or worse.


The Talent evaluation process on Kirby Sucks ....

 

[Bulls on Parade]

Let's build the team around Deshaun Watson moving forward. That's all we can really do. We have no pick in the upcoming draft until the third round unless we trade up. I'm not sure what can be done in free agency. We'll see.

 

[TexansBull]

You are missing the overall point .... which Speedy nails shut in the following post.



And that is the bottom line , just look at the list of worst players in the league at their given positions posted recently ..... along the OL the Texans have a multitude of contenders for worst , secondary same thing , also a contender at RB and honestly should have the worst QB in Savage as no one has been worse or turned the ball over as consistently , dude leads the league in fumbles and hasn't played half the snaps. Too Many Texans on that list.

Sure they have hit on a few superstars .... Watt , Clowney , Mercilus , DHop , Watson and maybe McKinney .... but outside of that the roster is devoid of talent , the rest of the roster is a buncha JAG's or worse.


The Talent evaluation process on Kirby Sucks ....

The player Case is today is not the same player he was when he was with the Texans. There is a reason he was in a deer blind when we called and why he went undrafted. Other teams thought the same of him because he wasn’t on a roster.

Case needed time and coaching to get where he is. The playing reps in St Louis helped him develop and he wasn’t going to get it here. Now in Minnesota it was the perfect scenario for him to reach another level. Behind this line he wouldn’t be as good as he is now.

I don’t know why people think Case would be as good as he is today if he stayed on the Texans.

 

[steelbtexan]

Let's build the team around Deshaun Watson moving forward. That's all we can really do. We have no pick in the upcoming draft until the third round unless we trade up. I'm not sure what can be done in free agency. We'll see.

You think Ricky has a clue of how to build a contender?

 

[steelbtexan]

The player Case is today is not the same player he was when he was with the Texans. There is a reason he was in a deer blind when we called and why he went undrafted. Other teams thought the same of him because he wasn’t on a roster.

Case needed time and coaching to get where he is. The playing reps in St Louis helped him develop and he wasn’t going to get it here. Now in Minnesota it was the perfect scenario for him to reach another level. Behind this line he wouldn’t be as good as he is now.

I don’t know why people think Case would be as good as he is today if he stayed on the Texans.

^^^^
This

Case would probably be a better than Savage.

Case would have to be the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ to lead this team to the playoffs.

 

[Bulls on Parade]

You think Ricky has a clue of how to build a contender?

The real question is do you think Bob McNair will fire him? I actually heard that due to declining health that Cal may take over as full-time owner in the near future (possibly this off-season) so will Cal McNair fire Rick Smith? I do have confidence that we can have a quick turn around and become a playoff team again in 2018.

 

[Mr teX]

The real question is do you think Bob McNair will fire him? I actually heard that due to declining health that Cal may take over as full-time owner in the near future (possibly this off-season) so will Cal McNair fire Rick Smith? I do have confidence that we can have a quick turn around and become a playoff team again in 2018.

What’s Cal McNair’s position? If he succeeds Bob as the owner then that leaves his position open.....a position for Smith to ascend into leaving the GM position vacant.

In that regard the McNairs don’t have to fire their boy and we get a new GM...everybody wins

 

[infantrycak]

What’s Cal McNair’s position?

Vice Chairman & COO

Somewhat of a fluff piece on Cal. Link. I kind of share the doofus look appraisal OTOH sounds like he works hard and I always respect walk-on players.

 

[Corrosion]

The player Case is today is not the same player he was when he was with the Texans. There is a reason he was in a deer blind when we called and why he went undrafted. Other teams thought the same of him because he wasn’t on a roster.

Case needed time and coaching to get where he is. The playing reps in St Louis helped him develop and he wasn’t going to get it here. Now in Minnesota it was the perfect scenario for him to reach another level. Behind this line he wouldn’t be as good as he is now.

I don’t know why people think Case would be as good as he is today if he stayed on the Texans.

Case had nothing to do with that post .... wasn't even mentioned.

But since you brought him back into the conversation , the question isn't if he would be as good as he is today , but was he better than .... Savage. That answer is a most definite YES.

Which brings us back to the point of the post you quoted - The talent evaluation process by this organization is horrible.

 

[steelbtexan]

Vice Chairman & COO

Somewhat of a fluff piece on Cal. Link. I kind of share the doofus look appraisal OTOH sounds like he works hard and I always respect walk-on players.

I'm pretty sure his title should be,

Gene Pool Winner

 

[IDEXAN]

You think Ricky has a clue of how to build a contender?

I thought the Texans played the Super Bowl champs pretty tough last year in the divisional POs. Unless I'm mistaken that was a pretty strong roster the Texans took up to NE last year.

 

[steelbtexan]

I thought the Texans played the Super Bowl champs pretty tough last year in the divisional POs. Unless I'm mistaken that was a pretty strong roster the Texans took up to NE last year.

You really thought the Texans had a chance to win that game? LOL

They couldn't even cover a 14 pt spread.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Vice Chairman & COO

Somewhat of a fluff piece on Cal. Link. I kind of share the doofus look appraisal OTOH sounds like he works hard and I always respect walk-on players.

Funny, this is the same writer that got canned (she left for the NBA, not because that was her original plan, although it worked out well for her) after she broke ranks with the Texans media stable and wrote a very uncomplimentary "Smith is incompetent" piece.

 

[infantrycak]

Funny, this is the same writer that got canned (she left for the NBA, not because that was her original plan, although it worked out well for her) after she broke ranks with the Texans media stable and wrote a very uncomplimentary "Smith is incompetent" piece.

So maybe the piece on Cal wasn't fluff.

I'm pretty sure his title should be,

Gene Pool Winner

Which apparently you like... as tax policy ...until the specific assets are identified.

 

[TheMatrix31]

I thought the Texans played the Super Bowl champs pretty tough last year in the divisional POs. Unless I'm mistaken that was a pretty strong roster the Texans took up to NE last year.

A team that played even 25 percent better offensively would have whooped the Patriots asses in that game.