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Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

Hottoddie

Hottoddie

Veteran
With all the complaining about the Texans taking Stingley over Gardner with the #3 pick, I thought it would be worth keeping track of their efforts on the field. Since I can't watch the Jets games & my job restricts how many Texans games I can watch, I have to base this comparison on recorded stats, independent analytical services & comments from the members of this board.

After game one, the winner (statistically) was Stingley with 7 tackles, 3 solo tackles & 1 PD versus Gardner's 2 tackles, 1 solo tackle & 1 PD. According to Next Gen Stats "Top 10 Rookie Debuts of 2022" article posted on NFL.Com, Stingley is ranked #4 & Gardner isn't listed in the top 10 at all. Jalen Pitre is ranked #2 on the top 10 list.

Of course, it's a long season & this is only one game, but it'll be interesting to see how the season plays out.

 
Brisco_County said:
For corners, stats are the least reliable indicator of performance or value. The best corners in the league often have low stats because QB's avoid them. Conversely, less effective corners may have high stats because QB's pick on them.

The only way to evauluate corners is with your eyes.
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He literally said he’s not able to watch any of the Jets game, so how can his eyes evaluate what he can’t see? :um:
 
Today Stingley has to guard Jeudy/Sutton with Wilson throwing the ball. He has a much tougher matchup than Gardner going against Cooper/Brisset imo. Same as last week Stingley against Pittman/Ryan while Gardner went against the Ravens run-centric offense.

However, over the course of the season Gardner will have the tougher matchups with Diggs/Allen and Hill/Waddle 4x for the season.
 
TheRealJoker said:
Today Stingley has to guard Jeudy/Sutton with Wilson throwing the ball. He has a much tougher matchup than Gardner going against Cooper/Brisset imo. Same as last week Stingley against Pittman/Ryan while Gardner went against the Ravens run-centric offense.

However, over the course of the season Gardner will have the tougher matchups with Diggs/Allen and Hill/Waddle 4x for the season.
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Gardner would get a good test if he is on Cooper who is an excellent route runner...but as I think you're alluding to; Brissett delivering a good pass is different story.
 
Kid is fine he doesnt looked overmatched abd the nature of the position is you’re gonna give up some plays from time to time. He’s traveling with Sutton…Sauce aint really traveling. Just the Growing pains of a rookie. Wilson is Basically throwing up jump balls to Sutton. And with the way the refs are calling this game, its being made even more difficult to play cb. S
 
Mr teX said:
Kid is fine he doesnt looked overmatched abd the nature of the position is you’re gonna give up some plays from time to time. He’s traveling with Sutton…Sauce aint really traveling. Just the Growing pains of a rookie. Wilson is Basically throwing up jump balls to Sutton. And with the way the refs are calling this game, its being made even more difficult to play cb. S
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Yeah. He just looks like a rookie who needs to work on stuff. No big deal.
 
No matter who has the better career, in the moment, Sauce was the better pick. It’s not hindsight, it’s applying sound, smart logic to the situation. It wasn’t a sound decision in April no matter how this turns out.
 
Mr teX said:
each successive statement you make comes off more and more ridiculous.
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What's ridiculous about that? Remind me again how many injuries Sauce had vs. Stingley? Remind me how many games each one played in the last couple of years of college eligibility? Remind me which one had to sit out the PS due to injury concerns? Which one had better film in 2021? Sauce might crater and be gone in 3 years, and Sting might go to the HOF - that doesn't change the facts as they were known in April 2022. You make decisions in the moment based on known facts. Hindsight is always 20/20.

And I'm also right on Lovie and Mills and you know it. They are both embarrassingly bad at their jobs. They only thing saving Lovie is Hackett who is laughably bad. Lovie looks downright competent next to Hackett.
 
Porky said:
What's ridiculous about that? Remind me again how many injuries Sauce had vs. Stingley? Remind me how many games each one played in the last couple of years of college eligibility? Remind me which one had to sit out the PS due to injury concerns? Which one had better film in 2021? Sauce might crater and be gone in 3 years, and Sting might go to the HOF - that doesn't change the facts as they were known in April 2022. You make decisions in the moment based on known facts. Hindsight is always 20/20.

And I'm also right on Lovie and Mills and you know it. They are both embarrassingly bad at their jobs. They only thing saving Lovie is Hackett who is laughably bad. Lovie looks downright competent next to Hackett.
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Yeah….& Stingley played against the better comp year in year out, had the better single season, fit Lovie’s scheme better & was projected by most pundits to have the higher ceiling and more natural ability. Doesnt mean Sauce wont be good, but it’s ridiculous to say 1 was hands down..or a fact the better pick over the other like you assert b/c neither had played a down in the NFL up to that point…its just a projected opinion…

FYI, Sauce was injured in yesterday’s game and when Cooper WAS on his side, Cooper had no problems getting his money. Truthfully, it looks like Sauce blew a coverage on Cooper’s TD catch….just a day in the life of a cb…same as Stingley. But the difference is Stingley isnt being hidden like Sauce.
 
After 2 games:

Stingley: 15 total tackles, 11 solo tackles, 3 PD, 0 interceptions

Gardner: 8 total tackles, 5 solo tackles, 3 PD, 0 interceptions

I've got a question about Stingley. I was able to watch the first game & noticed that he was playing way off his man a lot. I'm assuming that was because he was a little apprehensive going into his first NFL game. How did he do in the second game? Was his coverage tighter, or did he continue to play too far off his guy?

I know both guys have a lot to learn & are just playing on their athleticism for now, but I assume both will be very good CB's before the season is over.

By the way, thanks for all the comments. I was going to subscribe to Next Gen Stats, but can't justify spending $70-$80 a year to read stats I could get by just watching the games (if I could).
 
Hottoddie said:
I've got a question about Stingley. I was able to watch the first game & noticed that he was playing way off his man a lot. I'm assuming that was because he was a little apprehensive going into his first NFL game. How did he do in the second game? Was his coverage tighter, or did he continue to play too far off his guy?
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He's playing the coverage Lovie calls. Usually zone
 
Hottoddie said:
After 2 games:

Stingley: 15 total tackles, 11 solo tackles, 3 PD, 0 interceptions

Gardner: 8 total tackles, 5 solo tackles, 3 PD, 0 interceptions

I've got a question about Stingley. I was able to watch the first game & noticed that he was playing way off his man a lot. I'm assuming that was because he was a little apprehensive going into his first NFL game. How did he do in the second game? Was his coverage tighter, or did he continue to play too far off his guy?

I know both guys have a lot to learn & are just playing on their athleticism for now, but I assume both will be very good CB's before the season is over.

By the way, thanks for all the comments. I was going to subscribe to Next Gen Stats, but can't justify spending $70-$80 a year to read stats I could get by just watching the games (if I could).
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that’s just the bail technique Lovie has his cb’s playing when they have deep zone responsibilities..which is designed to take away deep routes. Its also the go-to switch up when your cb’s alternate from press man. Which Lovie alternated quite a bit yesterday. Alot of the plays Sutton got the ball thrown to him, Stingley was matched up with him in man…sometimes press man, sometimes off man. The long PI call…i could easily see that being a no-call…the other catches, Stingley was just a hair too late. Sutton’s not a bum…& neither is Wilson & Sting held his own.

By contrast, Saleh runs almost exclusively zone so he has Sauce way off the ball almost every time;
 
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Mr teX said:
that’s just the bail technique Lovie has his cb’s playing when they have deep zone responsibilities..which is designed to take away deep routes. Its also the go-to switch up when your cb’s alternate from press man. Which Lovie alternated quite a bit yesterday. Alot of the plays Sutton got the ball thrown to him, Stingley was matched up with him in man…sometimes press man, sometimes off man. The long PI call…i could easily see that being a no-call…the other catches, Stingley was just a hair too late. Sutton’s not a bum…& neither is Wilson & Sting held his own.

By contrast, Saleh runs almost exclusively zone so he has Sauce way off the ball almost every time;
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I thought Stingley played ok. I mean, he's a player who hasn't played alot recently.
 
The question was never about Stingly vs Sauce talent or skill wise, on those marks I think Stingley is overall better. The question was how long will Stingly be able to play vs Sauce due to injury history. Either way the die is cast now so let’s hope Caserio and Lovie really did see/know something more that those on the outside.
 
Stingley is insanely polished for not having played meaningful minutes for couple years. He is a pure press corner. Thats reason they (lovie) overlooked his injury red flags and probably could have taken him later (with some maneuvering).
Sauce Gardner can press but lacks core strength to lock down and get physical, early stage of his career. If beaten he still gets handsy, for now better suited to play in zone coverage, looks like a free safety with his range and wingspan.
Health permitting, both should be premier DB's in the league for a long time and carry big contracts.
 
Mr teX said:
Kid is fine he doesnt looked overmatched abd the nature of the position is you’re gonna give up some plays from time to time. He’s traveling with Sutton…Sauce aint really traveling. Just the Growing pains of a rookie. Wilson is Basically throwing up jump balls to Sutton. And with the way the refs are calling this game, its being made even more difficult to play cb. S
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He got hosed on completion to Sutton. I know it was third down. The Broncos were moving to the left on the TV screen. Completion to Sutton on the Broncos sideline. 20 yards give or take.
go watch that and tell me Sutton didn’t push off. Arm barred him, whatever. Stingley had good coverage. But Sutton is a big boy and he got away with a push off.
 
austins23 said:
He got hosed on completion to Sutton. I know it was third down. The Broncos were moving to the left on the TV screen. Completion to Sutton on the Broncos sideline. 20 yards give or take.
go watch that and tell me Sutton didn’t push off. Arm barred him, whatever. Stingley had good coverage. But Sutton is a big boy and he got away with a push off.
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All WR's push off and most times get away with it......I thought Stingley got hosed on both calls, but honestly that's gonna continue to happen as the league places more & more emphasis on points & scoring. But Sutton pushed off pretty hard at the top of his break on the slant for the 1st PI call & as I said in an earlier post, The 2nd long pass PI call, that really should've been a no call...both guys were hand fighting with their inside arm. On the telecast they said Stingley pulled Sutton's arm down preventing him from making the catch..& he did but that was as the ball arrived which is supposed to be ok. In watching it closely tho, Sutton is actually the one who grabbed Stingley's arm to pull it down to prevent him from getting his hands on the ball right before the ball arrived.....as the screenshot below shows....

1663690124486.png 1663691903480.png
So although he was called for PI, it was more of a reputation call (vet vs. rook). Sting's technique was excellent on this play tho. He subtly and successfully got on top of the route & squeezed that sideline cushioning once he knew it was going deep. They teach you as cb to do that for a number of reasons. 1, for location of the WR & ball in space..the key here is you gotta look back for the ball & you have to be subtle about getting on top of them & cutting them off..which Sting is from the 1st screenshot. 2, you as the cb want to squeeze that 5 yard protective cushion on the sidelines the WR is protecting for the QB to "error" on his throw. WR's tend to want to run around any resistance you're offering and veer outside towards the sideline when you get on top of them..which decreases that cushioning for error..which in turn makes it just a little harder throw for the qb to drop in there without erroring on their placement. Finally, when you get in their hip pocket like Sting was on this route, it inadvertently takes away that inside arm of the WR & makes it difficult for them to reach out and catch the ball with both hands if your body is blocking them from raising that arm up..Sutton literally had to pull Sting's arm down to get his inside arm free b/c was so closely in his hip pocket there.

Clinic **** right there.
 
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Mr teX said:
All WR's push off and most times get away with it......I thought Stingley got hosed on both calls, but honestly that's gonna continue to happen as the league places more & more emphasis on points & scoring. But Sutton pushed off pretty hard at the top of his break on the slant for the 1st PI call & as I said in an earlier post, The 2nd long pass PI call, that really should've been a no call...both guys were hand fighting with their inside arm. On the telecast they said Stingley pulled Sutton's arm down preventing him from making the catch..& he did but that was as the ball arrived which is supposed to be ok. In watching it closely tho, Sutton is actually the one who grabbed Stingley's arm to pull it down to prevent him from getting his hands on the ball right before the ball arrived.....as the screenshot below shows....

View attachment 10694 View attachment 10696
So although he was called for PI, it was more of a reputation call (vet vs. rook). Sting's technique was excellent on this play tho. He subtly and successfully got on top of the route & squeezed that sideline cushioning once he knew it was going deep. They teach you as cb to do that for a number of reasons. 1, for location of the WR & ball in space..the key here is you gotta look back for the ball & you have to be subtle about getting on top of them & cutting them off..which Sting is from the 1st screenshot. 2, you as the cb want to squeeze that 5 yard protective cushion on the sidelines the WR is protecting for the QB to "error" on his throw. WR's tend to want to run around any resistance you're offering and veer outside towards the sideline when you get on top of them..which decreases that cushioning for error..which in turn makes it just a little harder throw for the qb to drop in there without erroring on their placement. Finally, when you get in their hip pocket like Sting was on this route, it inadvertently takes away that inside arm of the WR & makes it difficult for them to reach out and catch the ball with both hands if your body is blocking them from raising that arm up..Sutton literally had to pull Sting's arm down to get his inside arm free b/c was so closely in his hip pocket there.

Clinic **** right there.
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Good stuff. Told my wife that was a BS call. Stingley played that great.
 
Mr teX said:
All WR's push off and most times get away with it......I thought Stingley got hosed on both calls, but honestly that's gonna continue to happen as the league places more & more emphasis on points & scoring. But Sutton pushed off pretty hard at the top of his break on the slant for the 1st PI call & as I said in an earlier post, The 2nd long pass PI call, that really should've been a no call...both guys were hand fighting with their inside arm. On the telecast they said Stingley pulled Sutton's arm down preventing him from making the catch..& he did but that was as the ball arrived which is supposed to be ok. In watching it closely tho, Sutton is actually the one who grabbed Stingley's arm to pull it down to prevent him from getting his hands on the ball right before the ball arrived.....as the screenshot below shows....

View attachment 10694 View attachment 10696
So although he was called for PI, it was more of a reputation call (vet vs. rook). Sting's technique was excellent on this play tho. He subtly and successfully got on top of the route & squeezed that sideline cushioning once he knew it was going deep. They teach you as cb to do that for a number of reasons. 1, for location of the WR & ball in space..the key here is you gotta look back for the ball & you have to be subtle about getting on top of them & cutting them off..which Sting is from the 1st screenshot. 2, you as the cb want to squeeze that 5 yard protective cushion on the sidelines the WR is protecting for the QB to "error" on his throw. WR's tend to want to run around any resistance you're offering and veer outside towards the sideline when you get on top of them..which decreases that cushioning for error..which in turn makes it just a little harder throw for the qb to drop in there without erroring on their placement. Finally, when you get in their hip pocket like Sting was on this route, it inadvertently takes away that inside arm of the WR & makes it difficult for them to reach out and catch the ball with both hands if your body is blocking them from raising that arm up..Sutton literally had to pull Sting's arm down to get his inside arm free b/c was so closely in his hip pocket there.

Clinic **** right there.
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Stingley had his good and bad plays last week. But I am encouraged by the technical savvy and athleticism for the rookie. I expect him to look very good this week in what will be one of the softest matchups he’ll get this season.
 
TheRealJoker said:
Stingley had his good and bad plays last week. But I am encouraged by the technical savvy and athleticism for the rookie. I expect him to look very good this week in what will be one of the softest matchups he’ll get this season.
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Only bad play i saw from him was the 2nd deep ball he gave up..didn't really locate there..Sutton kinda got him turned the wrong way.
 
Mr teX said:
Only bad play i saw from him was the 2nd deep ball he gave up..didn't really locate there..Sutton kinda got him turned the wrong way.
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Kinda hard to say. It looks like man, but it may very well have been a zone thing where Sting was defending the curl/comeback expecting the safety to be there over the top.

I only saw the play once, but it didn't look like he got turned around. Looked like he decided to curl under & look at the QB.
 
thunderkyss said:
Kinda hard to say. It looks like man, but it may very well have been a zone thing where Sting was defending the curl/comeback expecting the safety to be there over the top.

I only saw the play once, but it didn't look like he got turned around. Looked like he decided to curl under & look at the QB.
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It was man & i dont mean literally turned around, just not in good position to defend it…that was mostly b/c it appears he hadn’t located the ball..or didnt know it was in the air
 
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I’m cutting Stingley a break, literally, on comeback vs Sutton. He has to be cautious pushing off that foot (if it’s same one as lasfranc injury). It wouldn’t be prudent for him to try and explode pushing off to contest that catch. Not giving up a whole season for one play.
 
beerlover said:
I’m cutting Stingley a break, literally, on comeback vs Sutton. He has to be cautious pushing off that foot (if it’s same one as lasfranc injury). It wouldn’t be prudent for him to try and explode pushing off to contest that catch. Not giving up a whole season for one play.
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Another play where Sutton needed to push off to get that little extra separation. The kid is sticky. If Wilson hadn't fired an absolute rocket, its probably broken up by Stingley.
 
Mr teX said:
Another play where Sutton needed to push off to get that little extra separation. The kid is sticky. If Wilson hadn't fired an absolute rocket, its probably broken up by Stingley.
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Im pretty sure Stingley will be a good one and good corners are hard to find. Only reason I’m cautious is injury concerns as CloakNNNdagger discussed on draft boards. Hoping he beats the odds 👍
 
Mr teX said:
Only bad play i saw from him was the 2nd deep ball he gave up..didn't really locate there..Sutton kinda got him turned the wrong way.
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If it’s the play I’m thinkin about, that was just a really bad blown coverage…. Wasn’t it?
 
TheRealJoker said:
It was a communication issue between Stingley and Owens. Hopefully with time the communication issues will be few and far between. They have certainly been getting plenty of snaps to work on developing their chemistry these past two games.
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It looked to me like Stingley carried him to a certain point and then stopped to cover about halfway. He got turned around though which made it looked bad, but I’m with you it looked like they (him or owens) screwed up
 
austins23 said:
If it’s the play I’m thinkin about, that was just a really bad blown coverage…. Wasn’t it?
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no that was the 3rd and 16 play. The play im talking about is the other deep ball Sutton caught over him. Stingley was up in press man. Looked like Sutton was on a fade b/c Wilson got the ball up quickly…As a result, Stingley didnt have enough tine to look back at Wilson and locate the ball…just wound up in an awkward position. By the time he looked up to locate the ball Sutton was already jumping to catch it.
 
austins23 said:
It looked to me like Stingley carried him to a certain point and then stopped to cover about halfway. He got turned around though which made it looked bad, but I’m with you it looked like they (him or owens) screwed up
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yeah Owens took the cheese on 1 of those “cheese” concept route combos…He bit on something unfolding in front of him. Stingley carried Sutton into owens’ zone…which was the deep portion of the field…Stingley then fell off like he was supposed to and got back into his zone as someone was coming into it.
 
Mr teX said:
no that was the 3rd and 16 play. The play im talking about is the other deep ball Sutton caught over him. Stingley was up in press man. Looked like Sutton was on a fade b/c Wilson got the ball up quickly…As a result, Stingley didnt have enough tine to look back at Wilson and locate the ball…just wound up in an awkward position. By the time he looked up to locate the ball Sutton was already jumping to catch it.
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Ok... I'm sorry. I was also talking about the other one.
 
Brisco_County said:
All rookie corners get picked on and often get burned. It doesn't matter how much natural talent they have. That considered, and the lack of reps he got in preseason, Stingley has been impressive and is playing much better than I expected.
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Yeah. This. Experienced QBs and coordinators pretty much always go after the rookies in coverage wherever they can, and generally continue to do so until the rooks stop getting burned.
 
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