DC and VY from a coach point of view

[Maddict5]

Mad,
I will have to break it down in a later post maybe tomorrow but as a defense minded coach he versatility scares me more than anything... He does have less time to make something happen but the time got smaller from HS to college and he was able to adapt. USC made the wrong decision in blitzing him on the goal line.. well I take that back they would have had him but the SS made the wrong fit when he was coming up the gap.. He made it easy for the OL to push him out the way when VY scored on the last touchdown. If you replay that down and watch it, watch the SS coming up the C gap instead of the D gap like he is supposed to. If he does he makes the tackle on VY.. Again that goes back to saying I know and everyone else knows he is not SUPERMAN.. but he makes plays and makes people around him better..
Just give him a chance like we gave DC in the last four years.. maybe that will explain why people are hollering for the Texans to draft him... DC has just worn out his welcome like TEXAN CHICK said earlier.. he is in a no win situation... no offense..

1-DC or VY have absolutely no chance if we dont put anything else around them- why dont we give DC a real chance with a half-decent ol and >1 target
2-do you think something like that would happen in the nfl(like v usc). i think any1 can see a good few teams have learned how to contain Vick this season so its not like no1 will know how to try and stop VY.

 

[Koolbrz]

an open mind... you say to use an open mind then go on to say vince wont do good because no other running qbs have won a super bowl........

forget the fact that none of those quarterbacks were comparable as passers OR runners coming out of college.

heck, vick only had 550 yards rushing and like 1800 passing at vtech.

I looked at Vy with an open mind and i will tell you what i saw. Alot of poor tackling in the ncaa. Something that will not happen in the NFL. His knees are inviting targets, He has a decent arm, and will be looking to run. Ala Micheal Vick. Just my opinion

 

[infantrycak]

this is exactly what im talking about, stop the freaking hyperboles!

Me and everyone else who supports him think he will be a fantastic qb in the NFL who will do great things.

you and jerek are the worst with that stupid "VY can do no wrong with you blah blah blah" crap. its childish and a lame attempt to degrade our opinion.

Geez this is friggin ridiculous that having 60% more yards, almost twice the TD's and less INT's can't be described as better statistically. Nothing in my post said VY sucked, wouldn't be good, wouldn't be better than Carr, etc. Get over yourself and this revisionist crud. Step 1--I made a comment to another MB poster about level of competition faced by DC and VY and that it wasn't entirely correct to completely discount the WAC and DC's performance there. Nothing in the post was in any way degrading to VY or anti-VY. Step 2--You jumped in with an apples and oranges correction to which my only response was your comparison was apples and oranges and made clear my original post was specific to passing if it hadn't been clear already. Step 3--you started slinging around accusations of anti-VY and degrading VY (by the way, try quoting something in this thread or from another which is actively anti-VY by me). Being as sensitive as you have in this transaction about VY is exactly why people mock some of the VY advocacy on here.

 

[Maddict5]

I can understand where you are coming from Mad and maybe you can see where the VY people are coming from when they bash VY...

But let me ask you and the DC followers: what makes you think DC can lead us the promise land... and please dont give me the GM and HC think he can... I want an honest answer like the VY followers give... I will keep an open mind and I am sure the VY followers will too.. Heck we have had an open mind for DC the last fours years so why not continue...

i dont know how you got it into your head that im a DC followers- all im saying is if we give him a decent chance-o-line and a few targets then we'll know 1 way or the other. also why isnt the fact that reeves and kubiak,-1 a HoF coach and the other a guy who's won 2 SB's and is a qb coach, both think that he can. they know alot more about DC than you and me. why isnt that as good a reason as any in your opinion. plus i still havent read any reason from VY fans which makes me think we would be better with him

 

[Texans_Chick]

heck, vick only had 550 yards rushing and like 1800 passing at vtech.

And was drafted first.

And isn't VY's size.

Just sayin.

 

[Koolbrz]

And was drafted first.

And isn't VY's size.

Just sayin.

You forgot to mention defenses have his number and will have VY's... all 6'5''. This is the NFL baby, not a bunch of 18-20 yr olds running around trying to tackle. I will say though, there are a few that can really hit.

 

[stevo3883]

You forgot to mention defenses have his number and will have VY's... all 6'5''. This is the NFL baby, not a bunch of 18-20 yr olds running around trying to tackle. I will say though, there are a few that can really hit.

yeah, he wont be lucky enough to play defenses with bobby carpernter and AJ hawk every week in the nfl!

oh wait, those two guys are probably better than any linebacker on OUR defense..

 

[expwrlifter]

Mad,
I agree with both of your posts and you are right in the fact NFL will learn how to contain him but it makes you think twice as hard to gameplan for him... He is a dual threat not as bad as he was in college or HS but its still there no matter how you slice or dice it...

As for the reason why DC should be the leader... sorry if i mistakened you for a DC follower.. i just want to hear from the people why he should be the leader well should i say continue to be our leader.... he hasnt done a great job so far and i know he has many of reasons why he faulted but a glisp of hope would be nice...As for the coaches and GM saying all those things kind of makes me wonder...kind of like selling a used car... you know the A/C works, the Heat works, the engine only has 30,000 miles.. just something weird about all that ... and no guys not tryin to hype up VY... just funny to me thats all..

 

[dat_boy_yec]

Mad,
I will have to break it down in a later post maybe tomorrow but as a defense minded coach he versatility scares me more than anything... He does have less time to make something happen but the time got smaller from HS to college and he was able to adapt. USC made the wrong decision in blitzing him on the goal line.. well I take that back they would have had him but the SS made the wrong fit when he was coming up the gap.. He made it easy for the OL to push him out the way when VY scored on the last touchdown. If you replay that down and watch it, watch the SS coming up the C gap instead of the D gap like he is supposed to. If he does he makes the tackle on VY.. Again that goes back to saying I know and everyone else knows he is not SUPERMAN.. but he makes plays and makes people around him better..

Just give him a chance like we gave DC in the last four years.. maybe that will explain why people are hollering for the Texans to draft him... DC has just worn out his welcome like TEXAN CHICK said earlier.. he is in a no win situation... no offense..

You talk about Young's versatility, but what about Bush. He is a versitile player as well and moreso than Young in some aspects. Young for all he can do always has to do so from under center or in the shotgun position. I am not going to knock Young, but it is not that difficult to gameplan against any player if you identify his tendencies and take them away. As good as Vick is the Panthers were able to hold him to 0 rushing yds. and next yr. they will keep negating him because they have learned his tendencies. To me the way I see it is Young is slower than Vick and he's a bigger target. So he won't be able to be as elusive as Vick and like Vick he will be forced to improve his passing. Again I'm not knocking him this is just the way I see it.

Now what do you think about Bush? To me he is the harder one to gameplan for. He has the reputation for being a burner and cutting to the edges, so say you plan to contain him by cutting off the outside game. Well when Texas tried this strategy White hurt them up the middle, do you commit to guarding the outside and have him run up the gut. Remember he is a threat once he gets to the second level so what do you have your linebackers do. If they commit to the outside they will be blocked and a lane will open up on the inside so Bush wouldn't really have to fight that hard to get to the second level. Considering the speed he has running to the outside him hitting the hole down hill would be a major concern. However what do you do when he slides from the backfield to the slot, what, do you play pass or worry about a reverse. Either one can be dangerous. Then you have to figure out how to play the situation in an instant. The most dangerous part would be if Carr can in fact read the defense because then he could audible into a play in which you can't account for everybody without there being a mismatch. There are so many variables that Bush brings to the table by himself that it will make the Texans a very dangerous team. Add to that that Bush is not the only weapon, how will you game plan for that.

 

[Koolbrz]

yeah, he wont be lucky enough to play defenses with bobby carpernter and AJ hawk every week in the nfl!

oh wait, those two guys are probably better than any linebacker on OUR defense..

They are the few that can hit. I did say that, didn't i? A.J. looked kinda lost in a few of his games this last yr. though. Don't know what that was all about.

 

[dat_boy_yec]

I will say this, which Young supporters will probably agree with. Young has a lot of potential, but the QB I would compare him to is Doug Williams of the Redskins. Some of the runs Williams broke were mind boggling, but he also had a great sense of leadership, and his passing was superb. (Vince has a great work ethic and I think his passing can greatly improve.) However Williams was not a running QB. Like Vince he could run, but he could also hurt you with the pass and the way he mixed them was more dangerous than most other running QB's usually mentioned because he excelled at both. One last comment is that Williams did win a superbowl. What I think is that Young has great running ability, but his passing needs work. If he improved I could see him more in the Williams mold than in any other QB's mold to which he has always been compared to.

 

[texarg]

yeah and did you see timmy chang's numbers in that conference... talk about outstanding....

I think we are getting some progress on this post and I dont see as much mud slinging... I agree with that guy that I know VY wont play much his first year and dont expect him too... He has to learn the system like he did at UT his freshman year.. As for DC he is in a no win situation and people will have little patience with him...

Is there anything wrong with competition? I mean DC was handed the job without having to compete.. Dont you think it might make him try a little harder that what he has done the last few years. Correct me if I am wrong but didtn they say he goes home early and doenst take extra time after practice...Heck the competition worked for Troy Aikman and Drew Brees...

nothing wrong with competition but take a qb with pick 1 just for that???
Brees plays with LD....Aikman with Emmit...Carr with David/Wells???
there are a lot of holes to fill before this Qbs job competition arrive to houston.
if cant trade down for more picks, bush can fill one of the biggers holes.

 

[TexanBacker93]

Heck the competition worked for Troy Aikman and Drew Brees...

You are suggesting Vince Young is no better than Steve Walsh??
He's much better than that.

 

[TexanBacker93]

im pretty sure its still football. And playing very well in college, is usually a pretty good indicator of being good in the NFL. its not foolproof, and you can usually tell who wont do anything, but its not as vast a difference as you make it out to be.

You can look back at every draft and find 2 to 3 of the top 10 picks that were either an outright bust or significantly performed below their "projected" abilities.
1999 - Tim Couch #1, Akili Smith #3, David Boston #8, Chris Claiborne #9
2000 - Courtney Brown #1 overall, Peter Warrick #4 overall, Travis Taylor #10 overall.
2001 - Gerard Warren #3, David Terrell #8, Jamal Reynolds #10
2002 - David Carr #1, Joey Harrington #3, Mike Williams #4, Quentin Jammer #5, Ryan Sims #6, Levi Jones #10
2003 - Charles Rogers #2, Johnathan Sullivan #6

I realize some of these players are solid. Some are still (hopefully) progressing. A player that is drafted in the top 10 should not be a complimentary player. That guy should be a player that makes things happen. In college every player drafted in the 1st couple of rounds was THE man on his team. They were men among boys. In the NFL the game is the same, but the competition is tougher. Instead of having the North Iowa A&Ms to beat up on, they play against top tier players every week. Some players don't have what it takes. Some get paid and lose interest. Some get hurt. It's very rare for a player that didn't perform well in college to come into the pros and become a stud. Gates is one I can think of and he didn't play college football. Who knew? Every draft will have busts. Statistics show that 1 of Bush, Young and Leinart will not be a superstar. I hope all 3 make it. Even if none play for Houston.

As for the specific years chosen, I didn't use the previous 2 years because it's too soon for sure. I could have gone further back than 1999, but I hope I made my point. Yeah, right now I include Carr on the list. He hasn't played up to the #1 overall pick level yet. Overall, that has to be the worst top 10 in a long while. Only Peppers and Roy Williams can be considered superstars. Henderson is great. McKinnie is very good.

 

[expwrlifter]

no sorry you took that the wrong way... he is better than walsh but what I am saying is create competition.. Heck that is what are nation is built upon always trying to out do the other person.. As one post stated DC was GIVEN the job from Day 1...

And for the guy that states about DC and Davis/Wells?.. You act like DD is chop liver... the guy has run for two straight 1000 yard seasons... and hasnt played all 16 games.. Give DD a better line and watch the zone scheme make him an even better back and maybe he wont take such a pounding... Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB

As for RB and gameplanning him,anyone will tell you that you can not run outside in the NFL...its a north and south game and you have to be a brusier to get through there... Thats why LJ is good from KC because he is a bigger back and uses the zone scheme well.. Thats why I think DD will flourish in the zone scheme with Kubes. As for guarding RB in the slot you can combo coverage him and bang him at the line and have help underneath.. He will catch balls as any receiving back will but dont see him doing it very much .. like I stated in an earlier post he is a Marshall Faulk guy and it helped MF that he had a good passing QB in Kurt Warner and two great WR's in Bruce and Holt. I agree with you in that RB will be a good RB and will take nothing away from him.. but I dont see him running wild in the NFL just like I dont see VY running wild either..

I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes... You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens...

ANd I know it wont happen like in college or HS but just imagine what could happen...

 

[TexanSam]

As for RB and gameplanning him,anyone will tell you that you can not run outside in the NFL...its a north and south game and you have to be a brusier to get through there... Thats why LJ is good from KC because he is a bigger back and uses the zone scheme well.. Thats why I think DD will flourish in the zone scheme with Kubes. As for guarding RB in the slot you can combo coverage him and bang him at the line and have help underneath.. He will catch balls as any receiving back will but dont see him doing it very much .. like I stated in an earlier post he is a Marshall Faulk guy and it helped MF that he had a good passing QB in Kurt Warner and two great WR's in Bruce and Holt. I agree with you in that RB will be a good RB and will take nothing away from him.. but I dont see him running wild in the NFL just like I dont see VY running wild either..

I believe Reggie Bush can and will be a north/south guy in the NFL. And I believe Davis and Bush will be much, much more productive than Davis and Wells. I posted this before in another thread and I'll do it again.

Here's Tatum Bells and Mike Anderson's carries and yards in 2005:

Tatum Bell - 175 carries; 921 yards; 5.3 avg
Mike Anderson - 239 carries; 1014 yards; 4.2 avg

Combined they rushed for 1935 yards on 414 carries for a 4.6 avg. That's basically having a 2 headed monster in your backfield. I can see Davis and Bush doing even better than Bell and Anderson. First, Bush is supremely more talented than Tatum Bell and Davis is younger and more explosive than Anderson (Anderson used to be a fullback). Bush/Davis can probably total over 2100 yards in season in RUSHING yards alone. The difference comes in Bush's catching ability. Bell had 18 catches for 104 yards last year. Bush can definately catch at least between 30-40 catches a season for around 300-400 yards. Combined that would be 2500 total yards. Bush would help us immediately and would have a tremendous impact. Not even Vince Young will be able to have this much of an impact on our offense this early. I vote Bush.

 

[Koolbrz]

no sorry you took that the wrong way... he is better than walsh but what I am saying is create competition.. Heck that is what are nation is built upon always trying to out do the other person.. As one post stated DC was GIVEN the job from Day 1...

And for the guy that states about DC and Davis/Wells?.. You act like DD is chop liver... the guy has run for two straight 1000 yard seasons... and hasnt played all 16 games.. Give DD a better line and watch the zone scheme make him an even better back and maybe he wont take such a pounding... Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB

As for RB and gameplanning him,anyone will tell you that you can not run outside in the NFL...its a north and south game and you have to be a brusier to get through there... Thats why LJ is good from KC because he is a bigger back and uses the zone scheme well.. Thats why I think DD will flourish in the zone scheme with Kubes. As for guarding RB in the slot you can combo coverage him and bang him at the line and have help underneath.. He will catch balls as any receiving back will but dont see him doing it very much .. like I stated in an earlier post he is a Marshall Faulk guy and it helped MF that he had a good passing QB in Kurt Warner and two great WR's in Bruce and Holt. I agree with you in that RB will be a good RB and will take nothing away from him.. but I dont see him running wild in the NFL just like I dont see VY running wild either..

I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes... You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens...

ANd I know it wont happen like in college or HS but just imagine what could happen...

First of all, you can't say that RB will not be able to go north and south. We don't know that. I know that size at the rb position is great if you want a bruiser for rb. What houston needs is a GAMEBREAKER!!! Someone that can go the distance. Look at Tiki Barber. He is what 5'9''-5'10'' 200lbs. Warrick Dunn is what 5'7'' 180lbs. They can sure go north and south. Can also break the long runs that we are lacking. They are not getting caught from behind either. DD is a great rb. Runs with some power. I agree. He's just not a gamebreaker. He was caught from behind what 4-5 times this yr. Thats 4-5 possible TD's we did not get. RB is the gamebreaker we need. He will be difficult to defend. I believe he will be more of a nightmare for defensive co-ordinaters than what you think. You just never know what will happen with DD and Bush on the field at the same time. Young is great. I just don't see him being the gamebreaker Bush can be, for the simple reason that defense's have been facing Vick for a few yrs now and have begun to slow him down. They will do the same thing to VY. I don't think that defense's will combo cover RB either because of the speed they have at the wideout pos. Don't forget AJ and Mathis. I do think he, (Mathis), will be in the starting lineup. Dude, this lineup has lots of potential and a ton of speed. There is only so much you can do with a running QB. With Kubiaks knowledge and a back like Reggie the sky is the limit, because you will be able to move him around. He will not be under center or in shotgun form. all the time.Just think of all the possibilities...

 

[Napa Auto Parts]

DC and VY are you guys serious it is clear to everyone that David is better i mean look at his pro career up to date Dan marino like. and when it comes to college david played in a tradition filled program playing team of immense tradition like san jose state the utah aggies.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

You forgot to mention defenses have his number and will have VY's... all 6'5''. This is the NFL baby,

Just like they already have Carrs' #.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Carr scares no one, with or w/out Bush in the backfield.

Young will scare people, with or w/out __________ (fill in the blank)

You gameplan against Bush just like you'd gameplan against Fred Taylor, same change of direction ability, same hands out of backfield, similar speed, same attempt to avoid contact.

I guess you could gameplan against Young like you would against Vick. Only thing is what if just sits back there and pix you apart with minimal running?

 

[thunderkyss]

i dont know how you got it into your head that im a DC followers- all im saying is if we give him a decent chance-o-line and a few targets then we'll know 1 way or the other. also why isnt the fact that reeves and kubiak,-1 a HoF coach and the other a guy who's won 2 SB's and is a qb coach, both think that he can. they know alot more about DC than you and me. why isnt that as good a reason as any in your opinion. plus i still havent read any reason from VY fans which makes me think we would be better with him

What if it's Bob McNair?? What if Caper's folley, was that he had to put together a winning team built around David Carr?? What if Caper's found out the hardway, that it can't be done?? Now we are sending more sheep to the wolves??

McNair(who loves Carr) has not wanted to protect him over the last 4 years?? That doesn't make sense.

Casserly(who loves Carr) & has some history of putting together talented football teams, has not wanted to protect Carr for the Last 4 years??
That doesn't make sense.

Capers....... football coach..... knows that winning puts food on the table, has not wanted to protect Carr over the last four years??
That doesn't make sense.

Palmer..... a quarterbacks best friend..... has not wanted to protect Carr over the last 4 years??
That doesn't make sense.

These 4 guys, along with who knows how many behind the scenes scouts, who judge talent on a daily basis, are the same bunch of guys that gave us Domonick, Dunta, Peek, Babin, Andre, Gafney, Bradford, Armstrong, Mathis, Coleman, Faggins, payne, Walker, Wells, Morency, Billy Miller, Glenn, Sharper, etc... Yet they can't put together a half decent offensive line?? They set a record for sacks their first year?? come close to breaking it their fourth??

Something isn't adding up here.

I've been a good fan for the last 4 years. I've defended Carr, for 4 years. I used the same tired excuse that you guys have for 4 years. He has no time. No one could do better. blah, blah, blah........... bleh, bleh, bleh.... bloo, bloo, bloo....... Now I see someone in the Draft, who is dynamic...... who doesn't give up on a play, who wins, because he wants to.... I see someone, that could possibly be the envy of the league given time. He could possibly be a first ballot Hall of famer...

Could possibly be. If everything happens right... he could be. If everything happens right for Carr, I think he can be Brad Johnson'ish, or Bledsoe'ish... which isn't bad... Bledsoe might get into the HOF.... it would help if he could win a Lombardy.... BJ...... probably not, ring or not.

I also don't see what advantage Carr's four years of experience give him over Vince as far as starting in the NFL...
Playing under center...... Carr hasn't shown that he can do it correctly, unless he is handing the ball to DD or JW....

Reading NFL defenses......... I don't think it is a skill Carr has mastered yet.

Throwing Motion...... Carr's is a little better.... but they both look awkward to me.

Float..... OK..... David wins that one. Especially on the Deep ones..... but if you don't have time to take three steps, no one is getting down field fast enough..... Vince kinda throws a few ducks out there.

Complicated offense..... I may be mistaken, but we've dumbed down our offense over the last three years.... for whatever reason, the Texans doesn't run a complicated WCO... 1 read, dump... I think Vince can handle that.

 

[texarg]

no sorry you took that the wrong way... he is better than walsh but what I am saying is create competition.. Heck that is what are nation is built upon always trying to out do the other person.. As one post stated DC was GIVEN the job from Day 1...

And for the guy that states about DC and Davis/Wells?.. You act like DD is chop liver... the guy has run for two straight 1000 yard seasons... and hasnt played all 16 games.. Give DD a better line and watch the zone scheme make him an even better back and maybe he wont take such a pounding... Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB

As for RB and gameplanning him,anyone will tell you that you can not run outside in the NFL...its a north and south game and you have to be a brusier to get through there... Thats why LJ is good from KC because he is a bigger back and uses the zone scheme well.. Thats why I think DD will flourish in the zone scheme with Kubes. As for guarding RB in the slot you can combo coverage him and bang him at the line and have help underneath.. He will catch balls as any receiving back will but dont see him doing it very much .. like I stated in an earlier post he is a Marshall Faulk guy and it helped MF that he had a good passing QB in Kurt Warner and two great WR's in Bruce and Holt. I agree with you in that RB will be a good RB and will take nothing away from him.. but I dont see him running wild in the NFL just like I dont see VY running wild either..

I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes... You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens...

ANd I know it wont happen like in college or HS but just imagine what could happen...

sorry i didnt realice that Carr has a diference line. maybe the OL works only for carr and not for davis.....
and "Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB"...nonsense, works too in the other way for Carr: "Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..RB and OL".
not a solid arguments againts carr.
btw: what do you think VY can do with THIS O line and RBs???? much more than Carr??? (remeber he will be a rookie in the NFL).

"I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes..."

what ????? VY fits and Carr doesnt? ...maybe Kubes dont know and thats why he say 3/4 days ago: "David Carr is the texans QB" (in others words: c extention).

"just like I dont see VY running wild either.." so if dont like Carr, take Leinart: 100% passer Qb but not VY.

"You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens"

could be, but dont going to happend in houston.

 

[texarg]

I believe Reggie Bush can and will be a north/south guy in the NFL. And I believe Davis and Bush will be much, much more productive than Davis and Wells. I posted this before in another thread and I'll do it again.

Here's Tatum Bells and Mike Anderson's carries and yards in 2005:

Tatum Bell - 175 carries; 921 yards; 5.3 avg
Mike Anderson - 239 carries; 1014 yards; 4.2 avg

Combined they rushed for 1935 yards on 414 carries for a 4.6 avg. That's basically having a 2 headed monster in your backfield. I can see Davis and Bush doing even better than Bell and Anderson. First, Bush is supremely more talented than Tatum Bell and Davis is younger and more explosive than Anderson (Anderson used to be a fullback). Bush/Davis can probably total over 2100 yards in season in RUSHING yards alone. The difference comes in Bush's catching ability. Bell had 18 catches for 104 yards last year. Bush can definately catch at least between 30-40 catches a season for around 300-400 yards. Combined that would be 2500 total yards. Bush would help us immediately and would have a tremendous impact. Not even Vince Young will be able to have this much of an impact on our offense this early. I vote Bush.

100% agree

 

[infantrycak]

McNair(who loves Carr) has not wanted to protect him over the last 4 years?? That doesn't make sense.

Casserly(who loves Carr) & has some history of putting together talented football teams, has not wanted to protect Carr for the Last 4 years??
That doesn't make sense.

Capers....... football coach..... knows that winning puts food on the table, has not wanted to protect Carr over the last four years??
That doesn't make sense.

Palmer..... a quarterbacks best friend..... has not wanted to protect Carr over the last 4 years??
That doesn't make sense.

These 4 guys, along with who knows how many behind the scenes scouts, who judge talent on a daily basis, are the same bunch of guys that gave us Domonick, Dunta, Peek, Babin, Andre, Gafney, Bradford, Armstrong, Mathis, Coleman, Faggins, payne, Walker, Wells, Morency, Billy Miller, Glenn, Sharper, etc... Yet they can't put together a half decent offensive line?? They set a record for sacks their first year?? come close to breaking it their fourth??

Something isn't adding up here.

Are you seriously arguing Carr has been given anything but miserable pass protection so far? Did McNair, Casserly, Capers and Palmer want to give him good pass protection?--well of course. Did they get it done?--any answer other than no is ridiculous. I mean wow ridiculous. Geez we have hit the stage where Carr is so horrible that he actually made Victor Riley (the last significant move to give him good pass protection) look bad somehow. You're right, that just doesn't add up.

 

[MorKnolle]

sorry i didnt realice that Carr has a diference line. maybe the OL works only for carr and not for davis.....
and "Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB"...nonsense, works too in the other way for Carr: "Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..RB and OL".
not a solid arguments againts carr.
btw: what do you think VY can do with THIS O line and RBs???? much more than Carr??? (remeber he will be a rookie in the NFL).

"I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes..."

what ????? VY fits and Carr doesnt? ...maybe Kubes dont know and thats why he say 3/4 days ago: "David Carr is the texans QB" (in others words: c extention).

"just like I dont see VY running wild either.." so if dont like Carr, take Leinart: 100% passer Qb but not VY.

"You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens"

could be, but dont going to happend in houston.

I agree with your points, and another thing to add to the one I've underlined, we've all seen Michael Vick scrambling for five years now and taking over a few games with his legs, and he's a better runner than Vince Young so it's not going to be anything new or better than what we've seen out of Vick.

 

[thunderkyss]

The difference comes in Bush's catching ability. Bell had 18 catches for 104 yards last year. Bush can definately catch at least between 30-40 catches a season for around 300-400 yards. Combined that would be 2500 total yards. Bush would help us immediately and would have a tremendous impact. Not even Vince Young will be able to have this much of an impact on our offense this early. I vote Bush.

Are you saying Tatum bell dropped 10-20 balls?? If not, you're talking about throwing the ball to your running back 10-20 more times than they did in Denver's system.... which, in my mind, is silly. Now if you're telling me he'll gain an extra 50-100 yards on those same catches, I can buy that as a good argument, and something to consider adding to my offense. But if you want me to dump down to my RB 10-20 times more, I'm just not going to do it. & if that's the difference Reggie is going to make in the NFL, then he really needs to go to a more traditional WCO.

 

[thunderkyss]

Are you seriously arguing Carr has been given anything but miserable pass protection so far? Did McNair, Casserly, Capers and Palmer want to give him good pass protection?--well of course. Did they get it done?--any answer other than no is ridiculous. I mean wow ridiculous. Geez we have hit the stage where Carr is so horrible that he actually made Victor Riley (the last significant move to give him good pass protection) look bad somehow. You're right, that just doesn't add up.

So what you are saying is that none of those guys can judge talent worth a crap, when it comes to the O-line?? They can build NFL teams minus an O-Line?? I should take their word on QBs, but don't listen to a word they have to say about Offensive Line?? They were able to pick a SuperBowl winning Quarterback with their very first pick ever, but cann't seem to put a line together to afford a 3 second drop??

Tell me how that is possible??

 

[thunderkyss]

I agree with your points, and another thing to add to the one I've underlined, we've all seen Michael Vick scrambling for five years now and taking over a few games with his legs, and he's a better runner than Vince Young so it's not going to be anything new or better than what we've seen out of Vick.

That's funny....... Michael Vick did get his team to the NFC championship... heck he played against a team whose running QB got them there 3 years running.... or is it 4 years running?? I remember Culpepper getting his team to the NFC championship game.... Mcnabb & McNair getting to the SuperBowl.......


Vince Young has the ability to be better than all those guys.

David Carr has the ability to be......... Jake Plummer....


hmmmm...

 

[infantrycak]

So what you are saying is that none of those guys can judge talent worth a crap, when it comes to the O-line?? They can build NFL teams minus an O-Line?? I should take their word on QBs, but don't listen to a word they have to say about Offensive Line?? They were able to pick a SuperBowl winning Quarterback with their very first pick ever, but cann't seem to put a line together to afford a 3 second drop??

Tell me how that is possible??

Answer my question and I will answer yours--are you really contending Carr has gotten good or even decent pass protection the past 4 years? Whether it is a talent issue or a coaching issue it is blatantly obvious the protection has been miserable. This whole argument is silly as you are putting 4 guys on a pedestal as proof of what we have no idea (implicitly that we really have a good OL) when 1 is the owner and not a talent scout, 2 were fired for not doing their jobs well and the 4th appears to have lost much of his authority for decision making on talent. Your QB argument is nonsensical--no one is arguing McNair, Capers, Palmer and Casserly said Carr is good so he must be good.

Please tell the MB that your 4 guys proved they were doing their best or even a moderately competent job when they started Riley last year at LT.

 

[expwrlifter]

The FO general hasnt done its job up to par. We have had more misses than hits... Thats why it is hard to believe DC is a hit.. I think a early post stated that the class of 2002 was the worst Top 10 in this decade...There wasnt much competition in that class, the only person to come out of the TOP 10 was Julius Peppers.. Maybe Quentin Jammer but I played HS ball with him..

 

[TexanBacker93]

The FO general hasnt done its job up to par. We have had more misses than hits... Thats why it is hard to believe DC is a hit.. I think a early post stated that the class of 2002 was the worst Top 10 in this decade...There wasnt much competition in that class, the only person to come out of the TOP 10 was Julius Peppers.. Maybe Quentin Jammer but I played HS ball with him..

Jammer has been a bust. Well, he hasn't been the shutdown cover corner that the Chargers were drafting. He's a good 2nd corner, but he has not lived up to the #5 pick that he was drafted at. I don't see Carr as a hit. I don't know if he is a miss yet. With some of those players in that draft you've never seen anything to say he could turn out to be great. Carr has had some great moments. Look at the first half of the Rams game, when they let him call his own plays and opened up the offense. Look at the last Jags game when they let him throw something other than outs into the flat.

I'd just like to see what he can do with some coaching and a real chance to shine. He might not be great, but if he does turn out great and the #1 pick is turned into a Franchise LT or a freak DE then the Texans are on their way to great things because they've been able to surround him with great players.

How good would San Diego look with Roy Williams lining up on the outside with Antonio Gates at TE? What if they had D'Angelo Hall or Dunta Robinson at CB? They already had a QB that had shown some life, but had a down year. They gave up on him and used that 1st pick to get another QB. Brees has been great/very good over the past 2 years and Rivers hasn't seen the light of day. Plus, with that deal down they got Shawne Merriman.

The Texans have that same opportunity. Every couple of years brings about a "never seen before" type of player. This year there are 2. That means the ability to trade down is hightened. The Texans can get a Ferguson or Williams plus a good draft pick next year. Yes, I realize how good Young might be, but Young alone won't make the defense better. Young won't make the O-Line better. QBs take a few years to develop. No matter who they are. I believe the Texans will be a better team over the next 5 seasons by adding multiple picks and upgrading at the positions that matter most.

 

[thunderkyss]

Answer my question and I will answer yours--are you really contending Carr has gotten good or even decent pass protection the past 4 years?
Please tell the MB that your 4 guys proved they were doing their best or even a moderately competent job when they started Riley last year at LT.

No, I'm not saying David has had good protection. I'm saying our GM, who is still our GM, who still heads our scouting department, our personnell department, is still going to be involved with our next bunch of picks. You're going to tell me Carr is the right pick, based on his opinion, and Reeves, and Kubiak, when they all answer to the same man. That man may very well be more medling than you and I both know. For all I know, he said we've got to make Carr work, and Capers..... who has had success with an expansion team, couldn't make it work. Everybody can look at Carr, and say yeah he's got the talent to accomplish what you want MR Mcnair. But as been stated in the many anti VY posts, talent isn't even half the equation.

Personally, I think our offense has been modelled after the Denver offense. But I've got to wonder why we don't move the pocket...... our Lineman are agile enough to pull it off, why don't we do it?? Instead of movng the pocket, Capers and Palmer chose to get the ball out quicker.

So I've answered your question. Answer mine. They can pick Pro Bowl recievers & punt returners.... they can find great value in RBs..... they picked a great Corner, and Buchanan may pay off. Talent wise, the team isn't really bad... but we've missed 5 out of 5 on the O-line?? even 1 out of 5 doesn't make sense.


Edited.....

Oh yeah, I forgot to add they picked a possible Pro Bowler in Carr??

 

[travfrancis]

I believe the Texans will be a better team over the next 5 seasons by adding multiple picks and upgrading at the positions that matter most.

the position that matters most is QB.

 

[infantrycak]

I'm saying our GM, who is still our GM, who still heads our scouting department, our personnell department, is still going to be involved with our next bunch of picks. You're going to tell me Carr is the right pick, based on his opinion, and Reeves, and Kubiak, when they all answer to the same man.

Well now you have changed the question (now McNair, Casserly, Kubiak and Reeves) since your first one (McNair, Casserly, Capers and Palmer) didn't work--of course the new form doesn't work since two of the four haven't drafted anyone or worked on the OL.

In any event, there is zero logic in the connection you are trying to make. Basically your assertion is either everything must be a success on draft picks and building every unit of a team, particularly the OL (and FA's and coaching--since that is what a good OL takes) or they must all be failures. It is just silly to assert that if the OL is bad, Carr must be also or that if Carr is good, the OL must be also just because the same GM and coaches were involved. You have watched the NFL for long enough to have noticed how not every piece to the team may perform equally like say for example Indy having a great O and suck D (despite Dungy's strength being D, or the opposite in Baltimore where Billick's strength is O)? What you have tried to twist is a simple statement by some folks--the fact that Kubiak and Reeves (new guys who neither picked Carr nor built the old OL), two guys with a ton of NFL experience and a heavy emphasis on QB's, appear to have confidence that David Carr can be a successful QB and live up to the potential from when he was drafted gives some people comfort. It's fine if it doesn't give you any comfort because you don't want to hear anything about Carr other than the door hitting him in the butt on the way out, but your purported connection between the OL's success in the past and Carr's in the future is just goofy.

So I've answered your question. Answer mine. They can pick Pro Bowl recievers & punt returners.... they can find great value in RBs..... they picked a great Corner, and Buchanan may pay off. Talent wise, the team isn't really bad... but we've missed 5 out of 5 on the O-line?? even 1 out of 5 doesn't make sense.

Well how about it seems pretty clear Reeves and McNair believe the coaches in place were not capable of using the talent they were provided, hence Casserly stayed and Capers, Palmer and Pendry are gone. Have you missed that part of what has gone on here? We will have a lot better idea of what Casserly's track record on the talent is when we see what Kubiak/Sherman/Reeves put together--do they make it out of parts in the bin or go back to the shop. Right now they have all five OL draft picks the Texans have ever made, Pitts, Weary, Brown, Hodgdon and Wand to work with.

FYI--if you want to look at failed drafting in a unit, try pointing to the DL--Charles Hill, Howard Green, Ahmad Miller, Keith Wright--seen any of those guys around lately?

 

[thunderkyss]

the position that matters most is QB.

Only if he is the field general...... if he's supposed to be a don't-screw-it-up QB like Trent Dilfer, then it don't matter. David will fit that role fine.

 

[A Texan]

6. The problem with a running QB is they only get slower as they get older. They are more likely to get injured. VY is a good passer but based on his passing ability alone he is not a Top QB prospect. Sorry.

GO TEXANS.

Not really. QB's worse injuries happen (especially the concussions that have shortened many a QB's career in the NFL) when they are hit in the backfield by 300-pound plus linemen. The more mobile a QB is the more able he is to avoid such hits.

 

[TexanBacker93]

the position that matters most is QB.

It depends on how the team is structured. A good QB or at least a QB that can manage a gameplan well is needed. On this current team with huge problems on the line and absolutely no pass rush I think they are more important positions to improving the team. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

 

[texarg]

That's funny....... Michael Vick did get his team to the NFC championship... heck he played against a team whose running QB got them there 3 years running.... or is it 4 years running?? I remember Culpepper getting his team to the NFC championship game.... Mcnabb & McNair getting to the SuperBowl.......


Vince Young has the ability to be better than all those guys.

David Carr has the ability to be......... Jake Plummer....

hmmmm...

Vick + McNabb + McNair = 0 SB!!!

why we should think VY "stile" can win the big one when all this NFL stars fell short??? and this comparation isnt fair...McNabb and McNair have lost SBs , VY hasn t a single snap in the NFL.

And compare Carr with Plummer...i take that like a joke...Plummer plays in Denver and remember the supporting cast he has around (Anderson, Smith, an OL, good def.)...this Carr=Plummer isnt serious.

 

[Vinny]

Vick + McNabb + McNair = 0 SB!!!

Vick + McNabb + McNair = 7 Conference Championship games (off the top of my head...plus or minus one either way).

 

[texarg]

So what you are saying is that none of those guys can judge talent worth a crap, when it comes to the O-line?? They can build NFL teams minus an O-Line?? I should take their word on QBs, but don't listen to a word they have to say about Offensive Line?? They were able to pick a SuperBowl winning Quarterback with their very first pick ever, but cann't seem to put a line together to afford a 3 second drop??

Tell me how that is possible??

bad coachs, bad luck or maybe because they are humans been and not madden players...yeap...its easy in madden!

 

[texarg]

Vick + McNabb + McNair = 7 Conference Championship games (off the top of my head...plus or minus one either way).

7 confenece champinships , 0 SuperBowls....conclussion: you are right.....if only wants to play a conf. champinship (not win one, just play it) and never won a SuperBowl: pick a running QB.

To win a SB play with a passer QB (Montana, Brady, Aikman...Big Ben...: 11 SB with this 4)

 

[TexanBacker93]

7 confenece champinships , 0 SuperBowls....conclussion: you are right.....if only wants to play a conf. champinship (not win one, just play it) and never won a SuperBowl: pick a running QB.

To win a SB play with a passer QB (Montana, Brady, Aikman...Big Ben...: 11 SB with this 4)

Someone else on this board a few weeks ago suggested that the fans in Houston would prefer a VY led team that makes the playoffs most of the time but never wins to a Carr led team that wins a couple of Super Bowls. I guess if you want a run first QB you can expect to be good, but never great. If you want a chance to be great you need a traditional QB.

 

[Texans_Chick]

7 confenece champinships , 0 SuperBowls....conclussion: you are right.....if only wants to play a conf. champinship (not win one, just play it) and never won a SuperBowl: pick a running QB.

To win a SB play with a passer QB (Montana, Brady, Aikman...Big Ben...: 11 SB with this 4)

In the history of the NFL, there have been lots of fungible pocket passers. Some of those are good, some of those are non good, and many in the middle.

In the history of the NFL, relatively speaking, there have been few QBs that have a combination of mobility and throwing accuracy.

You would expect more of the fungible pocket passers to have success because there is just more of them. It is amazing how much success the more mobile QBs have had given how few of them there are relatively speaking.

But personally, I am not about generalizations and more about looking at the specific attributes of players. BTW, Vick is not the same player as VY--different size, different abilities.

 

[thunderkyss]

Well now you have changed the question (now McNair, Casserly, Kubiak and Reeves) since your first one (McNair, Casserly, Capers and Palmer) didn't work--of course the new form doesn't work since two of the four haven't drafted anyone or worked on the OL.

That isn't even a question.... the part you quoted.... wasn't even a question.

So I've answered your question. Answer mine. They can pick Pro Bowl recievers & punt returners.... they can find great value in RBs..... they picked a great Corner, and Buchanan may pay off. Talent wise, the team isn't really bad... but we've missed 5 out of 5 on the O-line?? even 1 out of 5 doesn't make sense.


Edited.....

Oh yeah, I forgot to add they picked a possible Pro Bowler in Carr??

That's the same question I asked before. Casserly, Capers et.. al... can make good picks at all spots, other than offensive line... how does that make sense??

In any event, there is zero logic in the connection you are trying to make. Basically your assertion is either everything must be a success on draft picks and building every unit of a team, particularly the OL (and FA's and coaching--since that is what a good OL takes) or they must all be failures. It is just silly to assert that if the OL is bad, Carr must be also or that if Carr is good, the OL must be also just because the same GM and coaches were involved. You have watched the NFL for long enough to have noticed how not every piece to the team may perform equally like say for example Indy having a great O and suck D (despite Dungy's strength being D, or the opposite in Baltimore where Billick's strength is O)? What you have tried to twist is a simple statement by some folks--the fact that Kubiak and Reeves (new guys who neither picked Carr nor built the old OL), two guys with a ton of NFL experience and a heavy emphasis on QB's, appear to have confidence that David Carr can be a successful QB and live up to the potential from when he was drafted gives some people comfort. It's fine if it doesn't give you any comfort because you don't want to hear anything about Carr other than the door hitting him in the butt on the way out, but your purported connection between the OL's success in the past and Carr's in the future is just goofy.

What?? I'm getting Dizzy. I can't even remember what I was saying.

Well how about it seems pretty clear Reeves and McNair believe the coaches in place were not capable of using the talent they were provided, hence Casserly stayed and Capers, Palmer and Pendry are gone. Have you missed that part of what has gone on here?

This is the kind of statement my first reply was addressing. Basically, I said what if it is McNair that is the problem. mandating that Carr starts, and Capers finds a way to make it happen. Capers couldn't do it, so he's gone. McNair still wants Carr to succeed, so he finds the people who say they can do it....

I'm saying it doesn't make sense, that Capers, Palmer, and Pendry just ignored the offensive line. Everybody knew Carr needed more protection. But in Four years, the people that brought us good talent at other positions, couldn't find the talent to protect Carr??

I'm saying either the Offensive linemen just didn't like Carr, or David is a bigger part of the problem, than a lot of people want to let on.

We will have a lot better idea of what Casserly's track record on the talent is when we see what Kubiak/Sherman/Reeves put together--do they make it out of parts in the bin or go back to the shop. Right now they have all five OL draft picks the Texans have ever made, Pitts, Weary, Brown, Hodgdon and Wand to work with.

FYI--if you want to look at failed drafting in a unit, try pointing to the DL--Charles Hill, Howard Green, Ahmad Miller, Keith Wright--seen any of those guys around lately?

And here, it looks like you are saying the Deffensive line is a failure, since we have none of our picks on the current roster. The O-Line, has all 5 picks we ever drafted, hence it appears Casserly, Capers, Palmer, and Pendry were succesful in drafting O-Linemen.

And looking at the St Louis game, were no one has answered my question about that.... The O-Line gave Carr the time to do what he can do in the first half, but not the second. David must have said something to really upset those guys...... if he didn't then you tell me why they failed to protect him in the second half, and not the first.

 

[thunderkyss]

bad coachs, bad luck or maybe because they are humans been and not madden players...yeap...its easy in madden!

So if all we need is coaching, why do we need D'brickshaw?? or Mario?? why do we need anything??


Just take the BPA, and be done with it. Vince... Bush... Vince... Bush... well, since we don't really need anything, and the Houston fans want Vince..

 

[thunderkyss]

7 confenece champinships , 0 SuperBowls....conclussion: you are right.....if only wants to play a conf. champinship (not win one, just play it) and never won a SuperBowl: pick a running QB.

To win a SB play with a passer QB (Montana, Brady, Aikman...Big Ben...: 11 SB with this 4)

And which one do you think Carr resembles the most?? Big Ben?? Aikman?? Brady?? not Montana....

So what have we got?? Jake Plummer= 0 conference championships, 0 superbowls.....

 

[TexanBacker93]

So if all we need is coaching, why do we need D'brickshaw?? or Mario?? why do we need anything??


Just take the BPA, and be done with it. Vince... Bush... Vince... Bush... well, since we don't really need anything, and the Houston fans want Vince..

Some Houston fans want Vince. Some want Bush. Some want Mario. Some want D'Brick. Just because the proVince fans are the loudest doesn't mean there are more of them.

 

[stevo3883]

Some Houston fans want Vince. Some want Bush. Some want Mario. Some want D'Brick. Just because the proVince fans are the loudest doesn't mean there are more of them.

umm, in houston, i would be willing to bet there are quite a bit more that want Vince than Dbrick or Mario.


doesn't mean im saying theyre right, but acting like its only just a few vocal UT fans is misguided. A lot of people with no connecton to UT want vince.

 

[texarg]

In the history of the NFL, there have been lots of fungible pocket passers. Some of those are good, some of those are non good, and many in the middle.

In the history of the NFL, relatively speaking, there have been few QBs that have a combination of mobility and throwing accuracy.

You would expect more of the fungible pocket passers to have success because there is just more of them. It is amazing how much success the more mobile QBs have had given how few of them there are relatively speaking.

But personally, I am not about generalizations and more about looking at the specific attributes of players. BTW, Vick is not the same player as VY--different size, different abilities.

There are/were more pocket passers because this is the way it works to win.
The same reason why there are/were so fews mobiles Qbs: few chance to succes in or to reach the final game (maybe just to a conf champ. game).
Excep: Steve Young (only 1 SB) , cant remember other right now.

 

[Texans_Chick]

There are/were more pocket passers because this is the way it works to win.
The same reason why there are/were so fews mobiles Qbs: few chance to succes in or to reach the final game (maybe just to a conf champ. game).
Excep: Steve Young (only 1 SB) , cant remember other right now.

You do not know that pocket passers = wins or mobile QBs = no Super Bowl. You haven't got a large enough sample to make such a conclusion, and even if you had a huge sample, that sorta reasoning doesn't take into account individual talent differences between players that defy categorization.

It just so happens that most great QBs in NFL history are pocket passers and most of the atrocious QBs in NFL history are pocket passers. You can't draw any conclusion from that, other than surmising that most NFL QBs are pocket passers.

I kinda like this logic fallacy.

David Carr is better than nothing.
Nothing is better than God.
Therefore David Carr is better than God.

(cue lightning bolt).