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DC and VY from a coach point of view

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expwrlifter said:
texan chick i like that last post. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about DC is a good QB but he just needs a different place to start. Steve Young did it and so did Brett Favre.
:

Favre didn't have to go somewhere else to get another shot. He needed to go somewhere to get a shot. There is a difference. Maybe that's what you meant, but Favre's situation was different. Young's was a little more similar, but I can't remember the scenario with his departure from Tampa Bay.
 
MorKnolle said:
2) The Titans are almost as lousy of a team as us. McNair only managed 3160 yards, 16 TDs, and 11 INTs (82.4 rating) for them this year, so Vince isn't going to somehow do that much better if he even gets to play significant time.

This, is a better-than-good Quarterback on a bad team.
 
I never agree with statements like "X player is good, he just needs to go somewhere else to succeed". If Carr is good, then we should try to get him to be successful on our team with the new system, not ship him off to Miami, Oakland, or some other team to watch him lead them to the playoffs and Super Bowl.
 
expwrlifter said:
Its that way all the way around and if you try to say you dont change schemes then you really dont know football.. And im sure I will get questioned again and its okay Im used to it... its normal in my profession.. dont you think you get questioned in yours...:ok:

As for coaching philosophies, you can change your philosophy to fit the players you have, you can change the players to fit your philosophy, or you can force players to fit into your philosophy. I guess you could also change the players and bring in the wrong ones, but that's still about the same as the last option. I think the Texans did a lot more of the last two options and not enough of the first.

There is nothing wrong with getting players to fit your scheme. If they aren't the player you need you get someone different. The Broncos have kept the same blocking scheme for years. They went out and found the players to make it work. Are you suggesting Shanahan has done it wrong? He should have changed his scheme to fit the players that they could have had? If you do your homework and draft guys that fit into your plans you won't have that problem.

Plus, this isn't Madden. There are a lot of differences between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE. You can't just change your Defensive scheme because you have too many of one position. Babin could play DE in a 4-3 on the weakside. Babin could not play DE in a 3-4.
 
TexanBacker93 said:
I'm not discounting fan expectations at all. You are blinded if you think the fans will sit and be content with a subpar team over the next few years. .

Let's take "other fans." (I'm assuming you're not a UT fan). If we took VY, and you thought it was a mistake, would you really be upset by the end of next year if we go 4-12 and have only seen a bit of VY? Would you be thinking that we're a .500 club with Carr and Bush or multiple picks?

How about the 2007-8 season? Would you be upset if VY shows skills/development of a Carson Palmer but the team is just pushing 6-7 wins?

I think the progression of this team with going the VY route should be measured against the progression of the Bengals with Carson Palmer. And I'd be happy with that type of progress and building. Those guys have a shot at something special, in no small part b/c they have a franchise QB to build around.

So, tracking back to the original point, I do think the pressure will be a bit less for Kubes in the first 2 years. But things do have to progress like Cincy. If he does that, I suspect the vast majority of fans would be very happy with the direction of the franchise. Turning things around in that way does not have to take a 4 year of suckdom path like some are making it out to be.
 
I too agree with Texan Chicks thread. In all reality if Carr went somewhere else people would already think he was the stud they needed and he could get some benefit of the doubt. Our fans would do the same with a new QB learning a new system..to an extent. So there can be a case made for the split. I just don't see it happening.
 
Toxicology said:
Let's take "other fans." (I'm assuming you're not a UT fan). If we took VY, and you thought it was a mistake, would you really be upset by the end of next year if we go 4-12 and have only seen a bit of VY? Would you be thinking that we're a .500 club with Carr and Bush or multiple picks?

How about the 2007-8 season? Would you be upset if VY shows skills/development of a Carson Palmer but the team is just pushing 6-7 wins?

I think the progression of this team with going the VY route should be measured against the progression of the Bengals with Carson Palmer. And I'd be happy with that type of progress and building. Those guys have a shot at something special, in no small part b/c they have a franchise QB to build around.

So, tracking back to the original point, I do think the pressure will be a bit less for Kubes in the first 2 years. But things do have to progress like Cincy. If he does that, I suspect the vast majority of fans would be very happy with the direction of the franchise. Turning things around in that way does not have to take a 4 year of suckdom path like some are making it out to be.

I root for the Longhorns, but since I'm not from Texas I can't fully consider myself a tried and true UT fan. I enjoy college football and like to watch very good teams play.

I still think the fans and McNair expect significant progress this year. If Kubiak thinks they can be 8-8 with Young on the roster that could be the ticket. I think that's the mark they need to shoot for this year. Whoever they add needs to help them get back to .500 this season and set them up for a playoff run the following year. If they don't think Young can get them there this year they shouldn't take him.

If they come out and stink I'll still go to games, but I won't be content with a 4-12 record next season. They go out the next season and discover that Young's game doesn't translate to the NFL as easily as they thought and they go 3-13 under him the following season. Maybe by the 3rd year they get to 7-9. It could be that in 2007 he leads them to 8-8. There is no way of knowing at this time. I think there are some fans that will be willing to give them a little more time, but there are less of them than there are that want some improvements next year.
 
expwrlifter said:
orginally posted by:Toxicology

As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination.

Cant coach that... you either have it or you dont...:redtowel:
The problem is we aren't choosing between drafting Vince Young or David Carr.

We are choosing between Vince Young, Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, and others. You could easily make the case that Bush and Leinart have as much poise, leadership, toughness and determination as Vince Young plus you could make the case that both of them are more NFL ready and less of a risky pick.
 
Let's try this and see if it makes sense. Are we all in agreement that Vince should see the field very sparingly if at all during his rookie year? Whether that be because his skills are not ready to be an NFL QB, you think he game is ready but you want him to sit for a year to get used to the speed of the game, or you just want someone else to be the whipping stick behind our OLine in a new offensive system that everyone will be trying to learn, whatever the reason, does everyone agree Vince should not really play this year unless it's at the end of a blowout game or he has just remarkable progression in his game?

That said, of course the fans patience with Carr is growing thin, I can understand to a certain point why it would be, but their impatience is going to be 10x worse with Vince here next year than without him. If Vince isn't here, if Carr and the offense don't have immediate success then people will be grumbling about it, but they won't have had a chance to see Vince in action at whatever team he ends up going to, so they won't have anything out of Vince to show that he is some great QB and their only options for running the offense will be continue with Carr or put in Dave Ragone. The impatience will be there, but no worse than this year.

If the Texans do draft Vince, every single incomplete pass that Carr throws will have a lot of fans booing and calling for Vince, which will either undermine what little support the fans do have for Carr and draw them away from the games, or it will force the Texans to put Vince into the game long before he is ready to. The fans will have so much less patience for Carr and be calling for his removal from the lineup long before he should be removed, and will hold Carr and the rest of the team to much higher expectations than they otherwise would. I think much of the problems that would be happening would be everyone else on offense adjusting to the new system as much as it is Carr's fault, and when Vince steps in personally underprepared and with an offense that still isn't running our system correctly, that will only make things worse with the team. Many fans that didn't overly want Vince to begin with will be upset at the decision, and many of the fans that did want Vince will just accept it as part of his learning process and be content with our team going 2-14 again because at least Vince is getting his time, and Vince will be thrown to the wolves before he is ready and probably slow his progression as well.

Now what happens if Carr ends up turning it around and thrives in our new offense? Carr keeps rolling, the offense is putting up a lot of yards and points, team is playing well and winning. Then we have to make a decision about the future QB situation of our team. Either we are going to have to trade Vince Young, lose out on the $20+ million bonus and $6 million annual salary we've already paid him to do nothing for us and take an additional cap hit for trading him, or else we're going to have to move Carr and start our offense over again with a new QB. This is a lose-lose situation for both QBs.


Going back to the original premise that Young should not be playing much if at all during his rookie year, for this next year alone, drafting him adds nothing to our team. We have the #1 pick in the draft, and we add nothing that helps our team improve for the upcoming season other than a backup plan at QB. Then since we have Vince, people are going to demand that Carr leads the team to an 8-8 record (or some other arbitrary lofty goal) and puts up X stats or else they are going to complain and boo and demand that Vince get put in. So rather than helping Carr improve and better his chances of providing a winning product with the top pick in the draft, we add nothing that helps him along this path, and if anything the fans scrutinize him more severly for any mistakes that he makes along the way and it diminishes from their support of him. Many of these people would probably still complain at Carr if he put up numbers like Matt Hasselbeck did this year (3459 yards, 24 TDs, 9 INTs) in a Pro-Bowl year, because they demand so much more out of him in order to keep him in front of Vince.

I think this creates a situation that will leave many fans unsatisfied no matter how well Carr and the Texans do until Vince gets on the field, and if Vince does see playing time then they'll be happy with less-than-mediocre play because it's their hometown hero Vince out there. They will demand so much more out of Carr to be happy with the team than what they'd demand out of Vince and likely create unrealistic goals for the team in order to not be disgruntled with it. In my opinion, this is setting Carr up for a failure, whether it truly be a failure on the field or just in the minds of some fans that want to see Vince no matter how much Carr produces. I don't see drafting Vince as being a good situation for the team, it doesn't help the team get better around Carr, it creates a rift between many "fans" and the team, and it sets Carr up for failure (moreso in the minds of the fans rather than on the field, but lack of support and criticism will eventually impact his play on the field) and in turn sets Vince up for the same failure (more of actual failure to produce on the field as he's put into games too early in his career), and it absorbs a lot of money that could be used to improve some other area of the team while not adding anything to the existing offense (or defense) to make those better.
 
Jerek,

Thanks for the support. I wish everyone else would understand what I am trying to say. .. Its not saying trade your whole scheme but adjust to our personnel.. there is a difference..:brickwall
 
MorKnolle said:
Let's try this and see if it makes sense. Are we all in agreement that Vince should see the field very sparingly if at all during his rookie year? Whether that be because his skills are not ready to be an NFL QB, you think he game is ready but you want him to sit for a year to get used to the speed of the game, or you just want someone else to be the whipping stick behind our OLine in a new offensive system that everyone will be trying to learn, whatever the reason, does everyone agree Vince should not really play this year unless it's at the end of a blowout game or he has just remarkable progression in his game?

That said, of course the fans patience with Carr is growing thin, I can understand to a certain point why it would be, but their impatience is going to be 10x worse with Vince here next year than without him. If Vince isn't here, if Carr and the offense don't have immediate success then people will be grumbling about it, but they won't have had a chance to see Vince in action at whatever team he ends up going to, so they won't have anything out of Vince to show that he is some great QB and their only options for running the offense will be continue with Carr or put in Dave Ragone. The impatience will be there, but no worse than this year.

If the Texans do draft Vince, every single incomplete pass that Carr throws will have a lot of fans booing and calling for Vince, which will either undermine what little support the fans do have for Carr and draw them away from the games, or it will force the Texans to put Vince into the game long before he is ready to. The fans will have so much less patience for Carr and be calling for his removal from the lineup long before he should be removed, and will hold Carr and the rest of the team to much higher expectations than they otherwise would. I think much of the problems that would be happening would be everyone else on offense adjusting to the new system as much as it is Carr's fault, and when Vince steps in personally underprepared and with an offense that still isn't running our system correctly, that will only make things worse with the team. Many fans that didn't overly want Vince to begin with will be upset at the decision, and many of the fans that did want Vince will just accept it as part of his learning process and be content with our team going 2-14 again because at least Vince is getting his time, and Vince will be thrown to the wolves before he is ready and probably slow his progression as well.

Now what happens if Carr ends up turning it around and thrives in our new offense? Carr keeps rolling, the offense is putting up a lot of yards and points, team is playing well and winning. Then we have to make a decision about the future QB situation of our team. Either we are going to have to trade Vince Young, lose out on the $20+ million bonus and $6 million annual salary we've already paid him to do nothing for us and take an additional cap hit for trading him, or else we're going to have to move Carr and start our offense over again with a new QB. This is a lose-lose situation for both QBs.


Going back to the original premise that Young should not be playing much if at all during his rookie year, for this next year alone, drafting him adds nothing to our team. We have the #1 pick in the draft, and we add nothing that helps our team improve for the upcoming season other than a backup plan at QB. Then since we have Vince, people are going to demand that Carr leads the team to an 8-8 record (or some other arbitrary lofty goal) and puts up X stats or else they are going to complain and boo and demand that Vince get put in. So rather than helping Carr improve and better his chances of providing a winning product with the top pick in the draft, we add nothing that helps him along this path, and if anything the fans scrutinize him more severly for any mistakes that he makes along the way and it diminishes from their support of him. Many of these people would probably still complain at Carr if he put up numbers like Matt Hasselbeck did this year (3459 yards, 24 TDs, 9 INTs) in a Pro-Bowl year, because they demand so much more out of him in order to keep him in front of Vince.

I think this creates a situation that will leave many fans unsatisfied no matter how well Carr and the Texans do until Vince gets on the field, and if Vince does see playing time then they'll be happy with less-than-mediocre play because it's their hometown hero Vince out there. They will demand so much more out of Carr to be happy with the team than what they'd demand out of Vince and likely create unrealistic goals for the team in order to not be disgruntled with it. In my opinion, this is setting Carr up for a failure, whether it truly be a failure on the field or just in the minds of some fans that want to see Vince no matter how much Carr produces. I don't see drafting Vince as being a good situation for the team, it doesn't help the team get better around Carr, it creates a rift between many "fans" and the team, and it sets Carr up for failure (moreso in the minds of the fans rather than on the field, but lack of support and criticism will eventually impact his play on the field) and in turn sets Vince up for the same failure (more of actual failure to produce on the field as he's put into games too early in his career), and it absorbs a lot of money that could be used to improve some other area of the team while not adding anything to the existing offense (or defense) to make those better.

Good points, MorKnolle. Carr is in a really tough spot period. He's almost at a point to where he has to perform. There will be no curve for Carr whatsoever. Like Jimmy Johnson always said, the cream will always rise to the top. So all we can say is that we'll see.
 
MorKnolle said:
Let's try this and see if it makes sense. Are we all in agreement that Vince should see the field very sparingly if at all during his rookie year? Whether that be because his skills are not ready to be an NFL QB, you think he game is ready but you want him to sit for a year to get used to the speed of the game, or you just want someone else to be the whipping stick behind our OLine in a new offensive system that everyone will be trying to learn, whatever the reason, does everyone agree Vince should not really play this year unless it's at the end of a blowout game or he has just remarkable progression in his game?

That said, of course the fans patience with Carr is growing thin, I can understand to a certain point why it would be, but their impatience is going to be 10x worse with Vince here next year than without him. If Vince isn't here, if Carr and the offense don't have immediate success then people will be grumbling about it, but they won't have had a chance to see Vince in action at whatever team he ends up going to, so they won't have anything out of Vince to show that he is some great QB and their only options for running the offense will be continue with Carr or put in Dave Ragone. The impatience will be there, but no worse than this year.

If the Texans do draft Vince, every single incomplete pass that Carr throws will have a lot of fans booing and calling for Vince, which will either undermine what little support the fans do have for Carr and draw them away from the games, or it will force the Texans to put Vince into the game long before he is ready to. The fans will have so much less patience for Carr and be calling for his removal from the lineup long before he should be removed, and will hold Carr and the rest of the team to much higher expectations than they otherwise would. I think much of the problems that would be happening would be everyone else on offense adjusting to the new system as much as it is Carr's fault, and when Vince steps in personally underprepared and with an offense that still isn't running our system correctly, that will only make things worse with the team. Many fans that didn't overly want Vince to begin with will be upset at the decision, and many of the fans that did want Vince will just accept it as part of his learning process and be content with our team going 2-14 again because at least Vince is getting his time, and Vince will be thrown to the wolves before he is ready and probably slow his progression as well.

Now what happens if Carr ends up turning it around and thrives in our new offense? Carr keeps rolling, the offense is putting up a lot of yards and points, team is playing well and winning. Then we have to make a decision about the future QB situation of our team. Either we are going to have to trade Vince Young, lose out on the $20+ million bonus and $6 million annual salary we've already paid him to do nothing for us and take an additional cap hit for trading him, or else we're going to have to move Carr and start our offense over again with a new QB. This is a lose-lose situation for both QBs.


Going back to the original premise that Young should not be playing much if at all during his rookie year, for this next year alone, drafting him adds nothing to our team. We have the #1 pick in the draft, and we add nothing that helps our team improve for the upcoming season other than a backup plan at QB. Then since we have Vince, people are going to demand that Carr leads the team to an 8-8 record (or some other arbitrary lofty goal) and puts up X stats or else they are going to complain and boo and demand that Vince get put in. So rather than helping Carr improve and better his chances of providing a winning product with the top pick in the draft, we add nothing that helps him along this path, and if anything the fans scrutinize him more severly for any mistakes that he makes along the way and it diminishes from their support of him. Many of these people would probably still complain at Carr if he put up numbers like Matt Hasselbeck did this year (3459 yards, 24 TDs, 9 INTs) in a Pro-Bowl year, because they demand so much more out of him in order to keep him in front of Vince.

I think this creates a situation that will leave many fans unsatisfied no matter how well Carr and the Texans do until Vince gets on the field, and if Vince does see playing time then they'll be happy with less-than-mediocre play because it's their hometown hero Vince out there. They will demand so much more out of Carr to be happy with the team than what they'd demand out of Vince and likely create unrealistic goals for the team in order to not be disgruntled with it. In my opinion, this is setting Carr up for a failure, whether it truly be a failure on the field or just in the minds of some fans that want to see Vince no matter how much Carr produces. I don't see drafting Vince as being a good situation for the team, it doesn't help the team get better around Carr, it creates a rift between many "fans" and the team, and it sets Carr up for failure (moreso in the minds of the fans rather than on the field, but lack of support and criticism will eventually impact his play on the field) and in turn sets Vince up for the same failure (more of actual failure to produce on the field as he's put into games too early in his career), and it absorbs a lot of money that could be used to improve some other area of the team while not adding anything to the existing offense (or defense) to make those better.

But ... but ... but ... VINCE NEVER LOSES. AT ANYTHING. :rolleyes:

Great post Mork, if the reader takes the time to consider everything and not blindly scream for their favorite player, in light of the obvious big picture and other scenarios and situations at work here.
 
Toxicology said:
You make a good point - there are probably several pockets or subgroups of "fans" that have different patience levels. But is that fact relevant to Kubiak's decisionmaking process? I think Kubiak gets that some "more educated" fans understand that the transition to the 4-3 and new offensive scheme will hinder progress and should temper expectations. But that's the brain talking. Fan patience is also emotional and like it or not, if Kubes keeps Carr, patience will run thin if we don't start next season well. And he knows that.

By the way, as between you and I - I don't know what you favor but I am a proponent of drafting VY. It's quite odd. I have followed pro football for 25 years. I am categorically against "run first" quarterbacks. Philosophically, I think you should have a pocket passer with some mobility in today's game. Not the other way around.

But Vince Young makes me want to chuck my belief system in football. I don't know how else to explain it. As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination. He is truly off the charts. I think VY will be no worse than steve mcnair. I think he will probably be a donovan McNabb once he learns that his legs will make plays, but his mind and arm will win games. I think there's a good chance that he could become the best QB in the league. For those that like math, I'd say there's 15% chance that VY will be a bust (for a #1 pick, that means no better than Mike Vick); 40% chance he'll be like Steve McNair; 30% chance he'll be like Donovan McNabb (league mvp); 15% chance he'll be the best QB in the league. I can mess with the numbers a bit, but that's close to my thinking.

I was with you up until the chucking of your belief system. I would say Vince is not particularly likely to be a bust (maybe in that 15-20% range), but as far as "league MVP" caliber, I am not so sure. As well, people forget that McNabb was "league MVP" caliber when he was surrounded by a "league MVP" caliber team. The Eagles were ravaged by injuries and T.O.'s disappearing act this year, and they looked awful, even before McNabb took the rest of the year off. Prior to this season, they had a stout team on both sides of the ball, and as has been pointed out, McNabb took six seasons to become much more than a novelty "dual-threat." Chicken or egg, I know, but as much as McNabb is a good QB, he looked ridiculous playing this year with the guys he had around him. Add to that Reid and his staff on their worst day one-upping Capers and Co. on their best ... are you starting to see the rest of the magic picture here?

If you think Vince will be McNabb-esque, I might be inclined to agree with you. Trouble is, the Texans don't have the Eagles' squad of McNabb's glory years to this point. We could take a big step towards building that with this year's draft/FA, and rather than starting over with a rookie QB, I propose we keep DC - a league average QB on the worst team in football, who can only get better - and look elsewhere.
 
jerek said:
But ... but ... but ... VINCE NEVER LOSES. AT ANYTHING. :rolleyes:

Great post Mork, if the reader takes the time to consider everything and not blindly scream for their favorite player, in light of the obvious big picture and other scenarios and situations at work here.

yes great post! but to add another thing to this please check this stats from 2 Qbs in their last college year:

COMP Att. TD Int Yds. Pct. LG RAT
CARR(2001) 344 533 46 9 4,839 64.5 79 166.70
YOUNG(2005) 212 325 26 10 3,036 65.2 75 163.95

VY only adv DC in the "where are you from?" column.
of course this dont incluide the running game, remember that is not a rb comp., leadership cap, etc. etc., just passing ability.
 
I believe he will be a good, possibly great, pro quarterback. However, I still believe that Carr can and will get it done in Houston, with Kubiak, and being that we have Carr who is at worst serviceable and at best good

i guess you'd take a avg-good qb/great rb over a great qb/good rb :challenge

I have seen Super Bowls won on the shoulders of average quarterbacks who played for outstanding coaching staffs who built an all-round, good team. I know that DC can be average, and I do firmly believe that he has the potential to be much better.

yeah, all those average qbs who have won super bowls have one thing in common - a great defense. we have ZERO reason to believe that our defense will be GREAT anytime soon.
 
LBC_Justin said:
The problem is we aren't choosing between drafting Vince Young or David Carr.

We are choosing between Vince Young, Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, and others. You could easily make the case that Bush and Leinart have as much poise, leadership, toughness and determination as Vince Young plus you could make the case that both of them are more NFL ready and less of a risky pick.

I agree you could make the case and be pursuasive. Personally, I have never liked the idea of selecting Bush. As for Leinart, I think there is a case for him to be the No 1 selection. I like Young a bit more than Leinart b/c higher upside and more intangibles (IMO). I think Leinart is less risk, less upside.
 
jerek said:
McNabb took six seasons to become much more than a novelty "dual-threat." . . . Chicken or egg, I know, but as much as McNabb is a good QB, he looked ridiculous playing this year with the guys he had around him. . . .

If you think Vince will be McNabb-esque, I might be inclined to agree with you. Trouble is, the Texans don't have the Eagles' squad of McNabb's glory years to this point. .

I think McNabb took the Eagles to 3 straight NFC championship games, 2002, 2003 and 2004. I think he was a 3rd year Qb in 2002, mebbe 4th year. I agree, McNabb had a great team around him. But it's easier to put those pieces together than to get a McNabb. IMO and I believe the O's of most GM's.
 
texarg said:
yes great post! but to add another thing to this please check this stats from 2 Qbs in their last college year:

COMP Att. TD Int Yds. Pct. LG RAT
CARR(2001) 344 533 46 9 4,839 64.5 79 166.70
YOUNG(2005) 212 325 26 10 3,036 65.2 75 163.95

VY only adv DC in the "where are you from?" column.
of course this dont incluide the running game, remember that is not a rb comp., leadership cap, etc. etc., just passing ability.

Against the WAC conference and they sure didn't win the National Title. Not a VY drafter just saying, there is a huge difference.
 
yeah and did you see timmy chang's numbers in that conference... talk about outstanding....:ok:

I think we are getting some progress on this post and I dont see as much mud slinging... I agree with that guy that I know VY wont play much his first year and dont expect him too... He has to learn the system like he did at UT his freshman year.. As for DC he is in a no win situation and people will have little patience with him...

Is there anything wrong with competition? I mean DC was handed the job without having to compete.. Dont you think it might make him try a little harder that what he has done the last few years. Correct me if I am wrong but didtn they say he goes home early and doenst take extra time after practice...Heck the competition worked for Troy Aikman and Drew Brees...
 
hey hulk,

didnt mean to step on your toes... I did say correct me if I am wrong... But I dont think McClain just said this ... it has come from other sources as well. Again I dont hate the guy just thinks he needs a change of scenery..

Heck you seem to be his biggest supporter and I see you are from the WC petition for him and maybe he can come back home..

And I have noticed you seem to be the guy that bashes other people because they dont agree with you... "Let me go power lift"... how old are we again?...

You peope in houston if you can keep me updated on any changes or rumors you hear on the radio.. dont get it here in dal
 
HoustonFrog said:
Against the WAC conference and they sure didn't win the National Title. Not a VY drafter just saying, there is a huge difference.

Well there is a difference--then again the statistical difference is very much in DC's favor and how many 1st day draft picks was Carr playing with?--the only 1 I can think of is Bernard Berrian a mid-3rd (he played one year with Mankins in Mankins 1st year so you could say 2). VY was part of a team that won the NC--a team with 3-6 other potential 1st day picks on O. Not taking anything at all away from VY--really just from this argument about the WAC. Yes Carr faced an inferior WAC, but he did so with an inferior WAC team. McNair came from Alcorn--you can't just discount everything based on the conference.
 
infantrycak said:
Well there is a difference--then again the statistical difference is very much in DC's favor and how many 1st day draft picks was Carr playing with?--the only 1 I can think of is Bernard Berrian a mid-3rd (he played one year with Mankins in Mankins 1st year so you could say 2). VY was part of a team that won the NC--a team with 3-6 other potential 1st day picks on O. Not taking anything at all away from VY--really just from this argument about the WAC. Yes Carr faced an inferior WAC, but he did so with an inferior WAC team. McNair came from Alcorn--you can't just discount everything based on the conference.

very much in DC's favor?

VY had 4000 total yards with 38 td's
dc had 4800 yards with 48 td's
not quite as big a gap when you factor in vince's 1000 rushing yards

Vince only played more than one series in the second half 3 times, his stats couldve easily been much higher. sorry, but Carr was 5th in heisman voting for a reason (lack of competition)
 
expwrlifter said:
Is there anything wrong with competition? I mean DC was handed the job without having to compete.. Dont you think it might make him try a little harder that what he has done the last few years.

This gets repeated a lot because they never benched Carr, but IMO that isn't really true. Banks has been here the entire time as a veteran QB. At least according to some reports it was the Texans' intention to start the vet not Carr, but they decided Carr gave them a better chance to win from game #1. I didn't see any of the practices before 2002 but have regularly attended the training camps since that time and Carr has been decidedly better than Banks & Ragone in that time. Probably the Texans should have brought someone better in to compete with Carr, but from what I saw Carr won the competition against everyone on the roster.

Correct me if I am wrong but didtn they say he goes home early and doenst take extra time after practice...

I love propagation of rumor on the internet. McClain and Justice have talked about Carr not staying late on a regular basis. That has in internet fashion turned into saying Carr goes home early. Both have acknowledged Carr takes film home to study, but of course, noone but Carr knows how much time he spends on that. Funny, Ray Lewis and Ed Reed are known as some of the best prepared, most extra working players out there--and it is a reputation built on watching game film at Lewis' house.
 
stevo3883 said:
very much in DC's favor?

VY had 4000 total yards with 38 td's
dc had 4800 yards with 48 td's
not quite as big a gap when you factor in vince's 1000 rushing yards

Vince only played more than one series in the second half 3 times, his stats couldve easily been much higher. sorry, but Carr was 5th in heisman voting for a reason (lack of competition)

Nice apples and oranges--you include VY's rushing yds and TD's, but not DC's and you don't include VY's fumbles. The point of my statement was as a QB/passer if I wasn't clear--there the advantage is clear.
 
infantrycak said:
Nice apples and oranges--you include VY's rushing yds and TD's, but not DC's and you don't include VY's fumbles. The point of my statement was as a QB/passer if I wasn't clear--there the advantage is clear.

Also Vince Young threw 208 less passes and threw 1 more INT then Carr has. Do we need more turnovers this year?
 
what did Vince do with Roy Williams at WR and Cedrick Benson in the backfield??

was a national championship won?

let me look up who was on defense too..(top of my head Nathen Vasher was drafted later in the draft and .....)

not bashing VY but he did a lot more with less talent on the Offense.. they just changed the scheme around "HIM"
 
infantrycak said:
Nice apples and oranges--you include VY's rushing yds and TD's, but not DC's and you don't include VY's fumbles. The point of my statement was as a QB/passer if I wasn't clear--there the advantage is clear.


apples and oranges? I was just responding to another one of your anti-Vy posts. I dont have any agenda here, I dont care who they draft, its just that people liek you who do nothing but degrade VY and what hes done are so old. im sorry, David Carr's college career doesnt compare to Vince's. I cant believe I have to even say that, it should be common sense. Vince is the best longhorn ever, come on.

Do you consider the Ttech qb's some of the best ever? they piled stats just like carr, and they didnt have many good offensive players with them.

btw Carr had 67 yards on 94 carries (0.7 avg)
 
Wolf said:
that is right.. they split with ....chance mock (if memory serves)


correct, mock started the OU game played badly and Vince came in and ran for like 120 yards (with one run where he broke i think 14 tackles and went around 60 yards, one of the best runs ive ever seen. and yes it was something around 14 the DC was quoted as saying a few guys missed him twice)
 
I don't really care if if VY started every game and won every game he played in college. That doesn't prove he can play in the NFL. It's another beast, another game.
 
bigTEXan8 said:
I don't really care if if VY started every game and won every game he played in college. That doesn't prove he can play in the NFL. It's another beast, another game.

im pretty sure its still football. And playing very well in college, is usually a pretty good indicator of being good in the NFL. its not foolproof, and you can usually tell who wont do anything, but its not as vast a difference as you make it out to be.
 
stevo3883 said:
im pretty sure its still football. And playing very well in college, is usually a pretty good indicator of being good in the NFL. its not foolproof, and you can usually tell who wont do anything, but its not as vast a difference as you make it out to be.

There has been a bunch of great, solid, college players that have never made it into the NFL, so just because VY played well doesn't mean he's gonna be God's gift to football the way people have made him.
 
stevo3883 said:
apples and oranges? I was just responding to another one of your anti-Vy posts. I dont have any agenda here, I dont care who they draft, its just that people liek you who do nothing but degrade VY and what hes done are so old.

No what is old is folks who think anyone who doesn't believe Vince Young is actually part of the holy trinity are anti-VY. He has every potential to be a fantastic NFL QB and I will not be upset if he is taken by the Texans but recognizing twice as many TD's with less INT's and over 60% more passing yds as better stats is not degrading VY.

And yes, even a pre-schooler would recognize mixing in passing and rushing yds and scores for one QB and not for the other and not including fumbles if you are going to include rushing TD's is both giving an incomplete picture and is comparing apples and oranges.
 
bigTEXan8 said:
There has been a bunch of great, solid, college players that have never made it into the NFL, so just because VY played well doesn't mean he's gonna be God's gift to football the way people have made him.


yes, everyone is calling him "gods gift to football" :rolleyes:

there have been like 5 posters who have gone overboard on the comparisons, but in general people just think he will be a very very good qb.

for every "VY is amazing" post, there are 10 posts from people like you saying he sucks or will be a bust. and honestly the first seems more likely than him being some horrible bust.

please stop the hyperboles.
 
infantrycak said:
No what is old is folks who think anyone who doesn't believe Vince Young is actually part of the holy trinity are anti-VY.

this is exactly what im talking about, stop the freaking hyperboles!

Me and everyone else who supports him think he will be a fantastic qb in the NFL who will do great things.

you and jerek are the worst with that stupid "VY can do no wrong with you blah blah blah" crap. its childish and a lame attempt to degrade our opinion.
 
infantrycak said:
This gets repeated a lot because they never benched Carr, but IMO that isn't really true. Banks has been here the entire time as a veteran QB. At least according to some reports it was the Texans' intention to start the vet not Carr, but they decided Carr gave them a better chance to win from game #1. I didn't see any of the practices before 2002 but have regularly attended the training camps since that time and Carr has been decidedly better than Banks & Ragone in that time. Probably the Texans should have brought someone better in to compete with Carr, but from what I saw Carr won the competition against everyone on the roster.

Banks is sorry and was never competition for Carr. We all know the story how he couldn't even make the Cowboys roster. Please, Banks isn't and never has been competition. Tim Couch could beat out Banks. I don't think anyone would even want Banks if we cut him. Carr has been GIVEN the starting job from day 1.
 
infantrycak said:
And yes, even a pre-schooler would recognize mixing in passing and rushing yds and scores for one QB and not for the other and not including fumbles if you are going to include rushing TD's is both giving an incomplete picture and is comparing apples and oranges.


why would i mention david carr's 67 rushing yards on 94 carries? its not llike i was trying to make DC look bad, he just didnt have any yards to add.

btw- Vince had 155 carries for 1050 yards and 12 td's and he lost 2 fumbles all year. 1 against A&M and 1 against Okst.

Im sure Carr had some fumbles as well but i dont know where to find his complete college stats.

its an oranges to oranges comparison. VY- 4050 yards(3000 passing 163 QB rating 1050 rushing @6.8ypc) 28 td's 12 int's, 12 rushing tds 2 fumbles while only playing over 35 minutes of a game 3 times.

David Carr 4860 yards(4800 passing 166 qb rating 60 rushing @0.7ypc) 46 td's 10 ints 5 rushing td's unknown fumbles

factor in the level of competition, and playing time, and it is in no way as slanted as you make it out to be.

but even a preschooler can see that
 
Must say quite amazing... And I am sure you are going to get alot of messages that say it was college....wont do it in the NFL.. but alot of this is true... but just imagine if some of that will happen in the NFL.. It was also nice to see someone 6'5 throwing downfield and I mean down instead of side ways or into linemans heads..

I will say this I hope someone comes up with a RB highlight video and a DC video so we can see all of them in action... And I dont mean that sarcastically I am being serious..

Again Nice Video..:redtowel:
 
jerek said:
Don't get me wrong. Texans blue all the way. But if I have to watch Vince hack his way through his first two seasons ... I have sat through bad coaching for four years, I don't want to sit through a rookie QB for another 2-3.

Yeah, it was awful when Earl campbell came into the league, too. That first year was all about watching him hack his way through the season.

Dear True Texan Fan:

Have a little bit of imagination, please. If Vince is a special player it will show up somewhere about midyear in his 1st year in the league. If he's an ordinary QB (albeit substantially better than Carr) it'll show up at the start of the 2nd year. If he's a real bust (worse than Carr?) that'll be clear in the second year, too.

But he won't be showing all this for the Texans. He might well be doing it in Tennessee.

Clearly Carr will improve next year. With as much padding and special attention as he'll get in the offseason you or I could play the position. The question is how good can he get? If they de-emphasize the QB role in the Denver mode, and they stop Carr from throwing INTs, he could be as good as Plummmmer. He's got a stronger arm, I think, but much less field awareness and he far less instinctual in his play (could be a good thing in this type of offense).

Of course, if they de-emphasize the QB role, they don't even need Carr to run the offense. Which is another topic altogether.

Basically, you're going to watch Carr hack his way through next season, getting better as he does less and less, as the offense is built around the run and the dink/dunk, with occasional airouts. We win maybe 5 games next year. Maybe even 6.

In the Vince Young scenario you don't build a Denver offense because you ascertain early on that you're better off building around Vince. So you build the Colts offense (ostensibly what the UT offense was patterned after).

The tripwire is this: Kubiak. His entire experience is the Denver show. So that's what he'll do. It's already decided. We're a conservative team with a conservative owner and conservative old coaches who have been replaced with conservative new coaches. They're shooting for respectability. The Titans, on the other hand, are already respectable as a franchise, and might be willing to take the risk of building around Vince Young.
 
Nighthawk..

Who would rather see behind the LOS?

If you gave VY the time to learn how many wins do you think he will have in his second year?

Would you have more patience with VY instead of DC?

Who are we kidding....we are in a rebuilding year...:crying:

New coach new system... so why not new QB

Heck they would be learning at the same time..(DC and VY)
 
expwrlifter said:
You were impressed with Carr coming out of college... are you serious? Did you see any of his games? And to answer your question yes I am a coach and no not a pee wee coach. I actually teach as well as coach so I spend alot more time working then typing on this board like some of you that continue to bash VY and want DC. You VY haters have a lot of hatered toward him which I cant figure out. I dont have any hate toward DC just stating he needs a new start because he will be watched even more closely now... He will get booed second guessed, its endless... I even said it wasnt fair for him..

And if you know a coach you should know that there is alot of time put into a weeks game .. but of course you know that because you are probably a pee wee coach's wife...

Whats sad is this board turns into a punching bag among the posters because everyone has different views on the issue. Most of the people from the WC love DC and they have a right too, same as the people who reside in Houston want VY.. only makes sense. Heck DC even stated he understands why people want VY.. You posters shouldnt be upset or bash on people of houston because they want there hometown guy.. You should be happy for them that they want someone from there city and not trying to move them out.. Its rare for this city to have someone like this take the national spotlight.

It took the astros almost twenty years to get there hometown guy while he posted Cy Young numbers everywhere else. People should quit taking stabs at each other and try to understand if you had a guy from your hometown wanting to come home you would be excited too. All the people are doing is trying to get their voices heard to the people who make the decisions. Because the last four years they havent and you seen where it has got us.:brickwall

im not a VY hater- i just dont like the way alot of people from houston are overhyping him- he does have flaws(like every rookie) but they just dont seem to understand that. im in favour of taking d'brick @#4 if possible but wouldnt mind bush or young but taking young now isnt realistic...as a (supposed) football coach i thought you'd be in favour of d'brick aswell as its the smart football move to make- yeah its not the sexy qb,rb pick but it will help us out more-both in the short and long term and gives us the best chance to win. i think carr can turn it around if he gets a decent line. #
heres a q. coach-if we draft VY how will it help when he'll only get 1-2 secs to throw it cos if you havent realised-tom brady he ain't
 
stevo3883 said:
yes, everyone is calling him "gods gift to football" :rolleyes:

there have been like 5 posters who have gone overboard on the comparisons, but in general people just think he will be a very very good qb.

for every "VY is amazing" post, there are 10 posts from people like you saying he sucks or will be a bust. and honestly the first seems more likely than him being some horrible bust.

please stop the hyperboles.



I'm not saying the guy sux, He is a great athlete. Only problem i have with the Texans drafting him is that he more than likely will be another M. Vick type QB. Someone that will run for 100 yds and throw for 100 yds. That is not the kind fo Qb that will get you to the SB or the kind of QB that we need. If they want a QB i would rather them take Leinart or Cutler. Just feel that VY will be a really good NFL QB, not a great one. How many running QB's have been too and won the SB. By running i mean someone like Vick, Young, Cunningham, Stewart, Brooks. Not one. Try and look at this with an open mind. I'm not dogging the guy okay, just my opinion on the sub.
 
Toxicology said:
But Vince Young makes me want to chuck my belief system in football. I don't know how else to explain it. As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination. He is truly off the charts. I think VY will be no worse than steve mcnair. I think he will probably be a donovan McNabb once he learns that his legs will make plays, but his mind and arm will win games. I think there's a good chance that he could become the best QB in the league. For those that like math, I'd say there's 15% chance that VY will be a bust (for a #1 pick, that means no better than Mike Vick); 40% chance he'll be like Steve McNair; 30% chance he'll be like Donovan McNabb (league mvp); 15% chance he'll be the best QB in the league. I can mess with the numbers a bit, but that's close to my thinking.

Interesting post.

I think I know what you mean. I was thinking about that stuff the other day, and tried to figure out why I felt that way. And I started to think about highlight films. And I guess the thing that blows me away about VY is that generally speaking, running back highlight films are much more interesting than QB highlight films. But not with VY. And VY has just done some stuff on the football field that I have never seen a QB of that size do. Not even close. Not just the amazing runs, but a lot of it is his football sense, and how he is hard to tackle. It is beyond what would be believable in a movie--it is more like freaky video game stuff. And it isn't just highlight films--you wanted to watch every snap because you had no idea what cool stuff you could see.

He is just does everything so smooth and easy. It is like he doesn't use any effort at all--when people are trying to tackle him while he is throwing, or just watching him run--it is crazy. It makes me think my eyes are playing tricks on me.

I know these sorts of comments make the non-VY fans upset, but when my eyes say what they are telling me and the stats say what they say-it does make you want to believe he is going to do some spectacular things. You know, it makes your spider sense go off.

I know that the Texans situation makes it unlikely that he will be drafted. But there is still that part of me that wants some sort of draft day miracle of cap fluffery and trades and sneaky GM tricks and whatnot that will make it make sense.

And when we don't draft him, I will remain a crazed Texans fan and will be the biggest fans of who we pick and who we keep, because they will have to be the bombdiggity. They will just have to. I will feel bad for how good they will have to play to please the fans. VY whereever he goes, will be the cache of potential until he gets his playing time, and for whatever that time of unknown is, the players we take instead will just have to be spectacular.

There would be nothing that would make me happier than seeing Carr finally succeed as a Texan. It would be a great story. (Good guy goes through adversity and helps an expansion team flourish). But it would be terribly ugly if we ended up getting him more tools, and still saw a lot of the same poor play.

As someone who is known as a bigtime Texans fan, I get a lot casual fans wanting to talk to me about the team. Nobody likes Carr as a QB. It's sad how badly folks have written him off. Or as they say on sportstalk, Carr has replaced Bagwell as the #1 Houston talk radio whipping boy. And the hard part is that nobody can say for sure if Carr is gonna be good or gonna be non-good or somewhere in between. After 4 years.

But at the end of the day, I try to keep my optimism hat on, try not to think of more ugliness and just hope for whatever to happen that is best for the team.

:texflag:
 
Mad,
I will have to break it down in a later post maybe tomorrow but as a defense minded coach he versatility scares me more than anything... He does have less time to make something happen but the time got smaller from HS to college and he was able to adapt. USC made the wrong decision in blitzing him on the goal line.. well I take that back they would have had him but the SS made the wrong fit when he was coming up the gap.. He made it easy for the OL to push him out the way when VY scored on the last touchdown. If you replay that down and watch it, watch the SS coming up the C gap instead of the D gap like he is supposed to. If he does he makes the tackle on VY.. Again that goes back to saying I know and everyone else knows he is not SUPERMAN.. but he makes plays and makes people around him better..

Just give him a chance like we gave DC in the last four years.. maybe that will explain why people are hollering for the Texans to draft him... DC has just worn out his welcome like TEXAN CHICK said earlier.. he is in a no win situation... no offense..
 
Koolbrz said:
I'm not saying the guy sux, He is a great athlete. Only problem i have with the Texans drafting him is that he more than likely will be another M. Vick type QB. Someone that will run for 100 yds and throw for 100 yds. That is not the kind fo Qb that will get you to the SB or the kind of QB that we need. If they want a QB i would rather them take Leinart or Cutler. Just feel that VY will be a really good NFL QB, not a great one. How many running QB's have been too and won the SB. By running i mean someone like Vick, Young, Cunningham, Stewart, Brooks. Not one. Try and look at this with an open mind. I'm not dogging the guy okay, just my opinion on the sub.


an open mind... you say to use an open mind then go on to say vince wont do good because no other running qbs have won a super bowl........

forget the fact that none of those quarterbacks were comparable as passers OR runners coming out of college.

heck, vick only had 550 yards rushing and like 1800 passing at vtech.
 
Nighthawk said:
Clearly Carr will improve next year. With as much padding and special attention as he'll get in the offseason you or I could play the position. The question is how good can he get? If they de-emphasize the QB role in the Denver mode, and they stop Carr from throwing INTs, he could be as good as Plummmmer. He's got a stronger arm, I think, but much less field awareness and he far less instinctual in his play (could be a good thing in this type of offense).

Of course, if they de-emphasize the QB role, they don't even need Carr to run the offense. Which is another topic altogether.

Basically, you're going to watch Carr hack his way through next season, getting better as he does less and less, as the offense is built around the run and the dink/dunk, with occasional airouts. We win maybe 5 games next year. Maybe even 6.

In the Vince Young scenario you don't build a Denver offense because you ascertain early on that you're better off building around Vince. So you build the Colts offense (ostensibly what the UT offense was patterned after).

The tripwire is this: Kubiak. His entire experience is the Denver show. So that's what he'll do. It's already decided. We're a conservative team with a conservative owner and conservative old coaches who have been replaced with conservative new coaches. They're shooting for respectability. The Titans, on the other hand, are already respectable as a franchise, and might be willing to take the risk of building around Vince Young.

see coach- this is the crap im talking about-this is a hater. he also thinks carr will improve but his VY goggles are already making him put carr down so he can still think he was right about young. if respectability is 2 SB then i think most of us would take that-great point:rolleyes:
 
I can understand where you are coming from Mad and maybe you can see where the VY people are coming from when they bash VY...

But let me ask you and the DC followers: what makes you think DC can lead us the promise land... and please dont give me the GM and HC think he can... I want an honest answer like the VY followers give... I will keep an open mind and I am sure the VY followers will too.. Heck we have had an open mind for DC the last fours years so why not continue...:redtowel:
 
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