DC and VY from a coach point of view

[tulexan]

I don't know, that Ohio State team in the Fiesta Bowl looked a lot better than the one that lost to Texas. Saying that Troy Smith wouldn't have made a difference is a bit of a stretch. Zwick was terrible, and there is a reason why after that Texas game he didn't play the rest of the season in meaningful minutes. Smith was coming off of a suspension and had yet to play all season before taking over in the middle of the game. I'm not even sure if he practiced with the team.

 

[Jack Bauer]

i never said "if" anything.

Ohio state was ranked 5th when they played texas, obviously there were a good team when they played texas

oh and btw, troy smith didnt do anything against texas, i doubt him playing the hwole game wouldve mattered at all.

You don't have to say "if" to actually make an "if this or if that" argument:

The point is that Ohio State was not as good as advertised at the beginning of the year. Read your own post concerning being ranked at the beginning of the season:

did they finish ranked?

it doesnt matter if they were ranked when they played... they could start ranked top 25 and lost 10 games, thats not a good team.

The flaw in this thinking is assuming that if they finish the year in the same area that they started the season that the team was that good for the entire year. FALSE!

Yes, Ohio State did finish the year ranked in the same vicinity at the beginning and the end of the year. Does that mean they were as good at the beginning of the year? No. Their ranking at the beginning of the year was based on preseason speculation. The switch to Troy Smith as the full-time starter is what saved OSU's season and top 25 ranking.

Again, the ranking at the beginning of the season is not related to the ranking at the end of the season. Get it? If not, good luck because I am done with this.

 

[Mr. White]

I am very aware mam of how much time Football eats up. Time away from my Wife and Kids.

.....time away from the Message Boards?

 

[expwrlifter]

Well as i can see some of you guys still take punches at other people and again its the West Coast taking punches at the Houston natives. WC people understand why we want VY.. its nothing personal against DC.. Heck if you like him that punch starting writing letters to Al Davis and ask him to trade for him. You got a great deal last year for PB...

And to answer that question about taking the best player in the draft...well that is VY people will say BPA.... and to answer the question about the QB fitting into the system. well VY does fit better into our system instead of DC.

Reason-- We have a horrible line and VY is more mobile opens up more lanes to pass as well as run. You have to check at the line of scrimmage and read the defense, which DC is not good at from previous years. Kubiak loves to use different RBs and we have tons of those, even paid a good almost above avg Rb in DD. AJ needs to get open with VY is helps a little because you have to respect his running ability which wont happen like in college but he does offer that threat like M. Vick. VY can operate from under center..he did it in HS just ask his coach from Madison... of course you WC people wouldnt know this because you only saw him on TV.. And that goes back to my saying an athlete will adapt and produce.

VY can and will have faults...trust me any QB will at first... just takes time to adapt and we have time because Kubes has a five year deal. It wont take VY that long to adapt and learn the system. I would make him sit one year watch DC or the veteran you bring in and let him learn. He will learn as he has done in his previous years. And I am not saying he is Superman because I know he is not... not even close but he is a QB that has intangibles...leadership, able to make big plays.. these things are not taught they either have them or not. They make the people around them better...

Again DC just needs a new start he has had a bad time here and just needs somewhere where the people wont criticize him for every move. You know how people in houston are and they dont take there sports lightly. When you make a bad decision they will never let you live it down...Nolan Ryan, Houston Oilers.... We love our sport teams and want them to produce...

DC just hasnt done that and we just want a new start ..like a new HC which we got.. thats why we want VY ..a new start....

And before I get the you hate DC... you love VY... he is a superhero...

I dont for either..I am just looking at down the road and what will make this team better... If you take RB and keep DC you have no lineman... If you take VY trade DC for lineman you still have above avg RBs in DD, Vorency, JW and our lineman were great for the run but couldnt do anything for the pass. Well thats Kubes type of offense... run the ball to set up the pass. So from the QB that fits thats why I see it as VY not DC... you are giving up too much to take RB and keep DC because we have no money to get lineman so we will still be 5-11 or 4-12. Not saying we will tons better with VY but it gives a chance to get lineman. If you take RB we dont have anything or anybody to trade... Dont say DD he is injury prone and nobody will take him for a lineman...And before you say you said DD is a good Rb he is just if he gets hurt its okay in Kubes offense we have others to fill in.. Tatum Bell, Mike Anderson, Griffith... <- Bronco RBs....

Hopefully this makes some sense...

 

[LBC_Justin]

Well as i can see some of you guys still take punches at other people and again its the West Coast taking punches at the Houston natives. WC people understand why we want VY.. its nothing personal against DC.. Heck if you like him that punch starting writing letters to Al Davis and ask him to trade for him. You got a great deal last year for PB...

And to answer that question about taking the best player in the draft...well that is VY people will say BPA.... and to answer the question about the QB fitting into the system. well VY does fit better into our system instead of DC.

Reason-- We have a horrible line and VY is more mobile opens up more lanes to pass as well as run. You have to check at the line of scrimmage and read the defense, which DC is not good at from previous years. Kubiak loves to use different RBs and we have tons of those, even paid a good almost above avg Rb in DD. AJ needs to get open with VY is helps a little because you have to respect his running ability which wont happen like in college but he does offer that threat like M. Vick. VY can operate from under center..he did it in HS just ask his coach from Madison... of course you WC people wouldnt know this because you only saw him on TV.. And that goes back to my saying an athlete will adapt and produce.

VY can and will have faults...trust me any QB will at first... just takes time to adapt and we have time because Kubes has a five year deal. It wont take VY that long to adapt and learn the system. I would make him sit one year watch DC or the veteran you bring in and let him learn. He will learn as he has done in his previous years. And I am not saying he is Superman because I know he is not... not even close but he is a QB that has intangibles...leadership, able to make big plays.. these things are not taught they either have them or not. They make the people around them better...

Again DC just needs a new start he has had a bad time here and just needs somewhere where the people wont criticize him for every move. You know how people in houston are and they dont take there sports lightly. When you make a bad decision they will never let you live it down...Nolan Ryan, Houston Oilers.... We love our sport teams and want them to produce...

DC just hasnt done that and we just want a new start ..like a new HC which we got.. thats why we want VY ..a new start....

And before I get the you hate DC... you love VY... he is a superhero...

I dont for either..I am just looking at down the road and what will make this team better... If you take RB and keep DC you have no lineman... If you take VY trade DC for lineman you still have above avg RBs in DD, Vorency, JW and our lineman were great for the run but couldnt do anything for the pass. Well thats Kubes type of offense... run the ball to set up the pass. So from the QB that fits thats why I see it as VY not DC... you are giving up too much to take RB and keep DC because we have no money to get lineman so we will still be 5-11 or 4-12. Not saying we will tons better with VY but it gives a chance to get lineman. If you take RB we dont have anything or anybody to trade... Dont say DD he is injury prone and nobody will take him for a lineman...And before you say you said DD is a good Rb he is just if he gets hurt its okay in Kubes offense we have others to fill in.. Tatum Bell, Mike Anderson, Griffith... <- Bronco RBs....

Hopefully this makes some sense...:ok:

Umm... I don't think you exactly understand how NFL football works. Picking VY is not going to help us get lineman. Oh man I could spend all day breaking up your post, there are a thousand holes. No offense but I no longer believe you are a Football Coach.

oh and if you are bundling me in with the "West Coasters" don't, I was born and raised in Houston and have only been on the West Coast for 3 years. I am as Houston as it comes.

 

[Carr Bombed]

Hey I'm a football coach, I led my Madden team to 4 straight superbowls.

 

[bigTEXan8]

Hey I'm a football coach, I led my Madden team to 4 straight superbowls.

You got me beat...I've only lead mine to three, but I am in my fourth season.

 

[expwrlifter]

its called salary cap issues... we will only have 9 million left to get some lineman. last time i checked good lineman dont come cheap.

and as for the guy movin to the WC i am glad that you are from here and you stayed a Texan fan.. at least shows you are not a fair weather fan and I appreaciate that.

 

[GoBlue]

Even if VY turns out to be as good as the best athletic QB in the league (McNabb and Vick) it will not translate into wins for the Texans. Look at what happened to McNabb when T.O. wigged out on him. and Mike Vick was totally ineffective this year without a receiving corps and a mediocre offensive line. The reason why we shouldn't take VY is that we can't afford to- too much money would need to be paid out and we have already invested too much in Carr. I don't think Carr will ever get to the ProBowl, but he certainly may get to the superbowl, if we draft smart and build a team around the QB we have.

If may seem ridiculous but its like if you're married for 4 years and you've lost some of the intial excitement with your current wife (Carr). You find out the most perfect woman in the world (VY) wants to join your, er team. Do you divorce your wife, leave your kids and start over? Of course not. You buy a fast sports car (Reggie Bush) to bring some zip back in your life and you make it work with the wife you got. You could also buy a bunch of smaller gifts for yourself to spice things up (TRADE DOWN).

Hope that puts things into perspective for some of you.

 

[TexanBacker93]

Good post. Hard to understand the Young-haters here. They seem to have the man-crush problem on Carr and any mention of replacing him with a better player riles them up. I'll be very sorry to see VY go to the Titans, but he will be a great player to watch in furture years.

Young may very well end up being better than Carr. Most experts had and scouts in America had Carr as the top rated player coming out of college. Has he performed as well as expected? It depends on what your expectations were. Most people, myself included, feel he hasn't lived up to the #1 pick billing. The question the team faces is how much of this is his fault and how much is not getting the help needed to be successful? Right now, it looks like they feel that he's still potentially the player they drafted. Only time will tell, but I would take Kubiak's opinion over someone on this board.

I don't think the team should take Young, but it's not because I am a hater. I do think he'll take a couple of years to develop, though. I think the team has holes that are more important to fill. I don't think Bush is that player either. I'd rather have him than Young on the current team, though. I think they would be better sooner. I think the Texans need to look at getting an extra couple of high picks and move down to take Mario Williams or D'Brickashaw Ferguson. This isn't a knock on Young or Bush, but they are players that the team needs now.

As far as the Titans taking Young, I've gone to their boards a couple of times and it seems their fans prefer trading down to get picks to fill holes as well. With McNair coming back and Volek on the bench, it's not a given that the Titans take VY. I think the Saints should take him over Leinart, though.

 

[dat_boy_yec]

its called salary cap issues... we will only have 9 million left to get some lineman. last time i checked good lineman dont come cheap.

and as for the guy movin to the WC i am glad that you are from here and you stayed a Texan fan.. at least shows you are not a fair weather fan and I appreaciate that.

Considering you are a coach and should know this. In drafting Young we would be drafting the highest paid position. We already extended Carr so even if we traded him we would take a nice cap hit. Whoever we draft will be a cap hit, however Young has two things going against him.
1. He would create the biggest cap hit unless he and his relative agent took a Huge discount.
2. He will have no immediate impact, everyone, even you, knows this.

So tell me with VY chewing up so much cap space how will we afford those high dollar linemen you were talking about?

 

[thunderkyss]

Don't sell Carr short and don't over hype VY just yet.

1. Did you see David Carr's college stats they were amazing. He was the fastest QB, the strongest QB, had the best arm in the draft.

2. Running Backs don't get Quarterback money. Regardless of what position they are drafted in.

3. Marshal Faulk is an NFL MVP, took his team to TWO Superbowls (won 1), and was a big part of the his team being the #1 offense for three straight years. (If Reggie Bush is like that.....I'll take him in a heart beat.)

Are you sure that had nothing to do with Kurt Warner?? No Kurt, No SuperBowl. Marshall was a big part of that, but he didn't bring that kinda play to Indy, and you haven't seen anything like it since Kurt Left.

4. We also don't know what we are getting. No one knows how David Carr will do in the NFL. He is a unique talent and is going to be asked to do A LOT of things he rarely or has NEVER done before. He is there for a Big Risk!! He is a great pick with the #3, #4 or #5 pick. But is not worth the #1 or #2 pick. Otherwise you would hear about how he is going to the Saints and not to the Titians.

Every thing here is true about David Carr, four years into the league. The word unique, however, doesn't mean the same thing in reference to Carr.

5. Michael Vick and Michael Brooks are the only two QBs that are faster than David Carr currently starting in the NFL. You right DC is not as big of a dual threat as VY or those other two guys but the guy has wheels. You could even argue that VY isn't a great of a passer so he isn't that much of a dual threat. Yes he can pass but if you really watched him play his passing got results but they didn't look pretty.

If Vince was my QB, I would try my best to keep him behind the line of scrimmage. Not so far as to ruin his game, but I want him to understand that I need him to throw the ball. I need to get him out of the pocket when the line collapses..... But I need him to make plays behind the line of scrimmage... that's what seperates McNabb/Culpepper from Vick. Vince by the way is a better passer than Dante & Donovan.

6. The problem with a running QB is they only get slower as they get older. They are more likely to get injured. VY is a good passer but based on his passing ability alone he is not a Top QB prospect. Sorry.

7. I love UT. I even went to the Rosebowl. It was awesome.

GO TEXANS.

If you saw Vince in person, then you know he is more than just a running QB. If I had seen anything to make me think David had what it takes to raise the confidence level of his teammates......... then I would think he might be something special.

McNair's got it...... Brady, Peyton.... Big Ben.. yep he's got it.... Delhomme... got it........ Favre.... he's got so much, it spills over to the fans thinking they are better than what they are......

Vince has got it....

Carr, nope........ Bledsoe... un-un..... Moon......... no.... Brad Johnson doesn't have it(ring or no)....... Marino.. unfortunately didn't have it.... Randall Cuningham doesn't have it either....

Brad Johnosn illustrates that "it" isn't necessary to win a superbowl.... McNair, Peyton... illustrate that it doesn't garrantee a SuperBowl either....

But I would love to have a QB like that.

 

[LBC_Justin]

If you saw Vince in person, then you know he is more than just a running QB. If I had seen anything to make me think David had what it takes to raise the confidence level of his teammates......... then I would think he might be something special.

McNair's got it...... Brady, Peyton.... Big Ben.. yep he's got it.... Delhomme... got it........ Favre.... he's got so much, it spills over to the fans thinking they are better than what they are......

Vince has got it....

Carr, nope........ Bledsoe... un-un..... Moon......... no.... Brad Johnson doesn't have it(ring or no)....... Marino.. unfortunately didn't have it.... Randall Cuningham doesn't have it either....

Brad Johnosn illustrates that "it" isn't necessary to win a superbowl.... McNair, Peyton... illustrate that it doesn't garrantee a SuperBowl either....

But I would love to have a QB like that.

You know what the Rose Bowl showed me. Matt Leinart is going to be a good QB in the NFL. The Texas Defense looked very fast and on top of things and he had no problem picking them apart in the second half.
Vince was great but he has some athletic WRs that made some athletic plays. It was very clear to me that Vince Young had a much easier task facing a much weaker USC defense, than Leinart did, because the Texas defense was very impressive.

Don't get me wrong I think Vince Young is GREAT. I don't want that to get lost in this post. But what we are talking about is this......Is Vince Young the BEST player in the entire draft? Is Vince Young the smart pick given our situation? I have to say no to both. If we needed a QB and we were in a situation where our salary cap and contract situation was QB friendly then I would be all for it, but I would want us to take a long hard look at Matt Leinart too. You can't say he has any less of the "IT" factor than Vince Young and he has been playing under a lot of pressure being the defending National Champs and totally in the spot light all season long. Plus he has been playing in a NFL style offense, but he isn't as exciting to watch and he isn't from Texas, so that is two strikes against him.

If we use the #1 pick I think it has to be on Reggie Bush. But every single day I am leaning more and more towards Trading down.

Oh and Warren Moon had it. Every year in the playoffs his defense clapsed on him. Almost every playoffs we were one defesive play away from moving closer to the superbowl. But alas this is the ULTIMATE TEAM SPORT, and one player regardless of how good he is can't always get it done. Moon was a winner, after all he did win FIVE Grey Cups playing in Canada.

 

[expwrlifter]

I think people should read the post more clearly... I never said that VY would be an instant impact i said let him sit and learn and then give him his chance. Why not it will create competition with DC and then we can see if he is really worth all that money..

And as for the salary cap i think i read somewhere he is only counted toward 2 mil this year so why couldnt we trade him? As for RB if he is drafted #1 then you think he isnt going to want some of that money.... I am sure VY would probably make his contract with incentives like Ricky Williams did his first year in the league.

Come on people especially you VY haters... give the guy a chance and open at least one of your eyes and see how good of an athlete he is...

As for your WC guys if you really think DC is that good ask Al Davis to trade for him... another thing DC was the best QB available that year in the draft and that is not saying much from that year.. And if I remember right The Texans were hoping that M Vick would go back to VT his sr year so they could draft him...

Hope you guys have a great week and maybe The Texans will do something this week that will give us some hope that they are thinking right for once.

 

[Jack Bauer]

And as for the salary cap i think i read somewhere he is only counted toward 2 mil this year so why couldnt we trade him?

Try the accelerated bonus if he is traded.

 

[Carr Bombed]

As for RB if he is drafted #1 then you think he isnt going to want some of that money.... I am sure VY would probably make his contract with incentives like Ricky Williams did his first year in the league.

How is it that all the Vincers can read the future, so Bush is a money hungry Ahole, but Young is going to hire Master P as his agent.....yeah I didn't think so either.

Come on people especially you VY haters... give the guy a chance and open at least one of your eyes and see how good of an athlete he is...

Your right Vince is one hellava athlete, which is why he was a great college quarterback, (at the pro level everybody is one hellava athlete, a coach would know that) however, my eyes are open and I see all colors (not just burnt orange) and all possibilities, example, if we're having a QB dabate then all the top QBs should be included in the discussion, not just the hometown guy, especially when he isn't even the highest rated player at his position. Which is another reason why I don't believe you are a coach. I was raised by a coach and a coach believes in a scheme not a player, especially when the player didn't even play in a pro style offense and is a project at best at the next level. BTW who exactly do you coach and on what level and what is you coaching philosophy ?...That is something you've failed to tell us

 

[TexanBacker93]

If Young was on the bench while Carr was on the field, Carr couldn't sneeze without hearing it from the Longhorn faithful. Drafting Young will force their hand to trade Carr and they won't get value out of him. Teams would know the Texans want to move him and offer little. It's not worth the $8 million cap hit they would take to move him.

Williams made a mistake for that contract and no agent will ever allow a player of that level to do something like that again. Young is not going to take less money than is his due. In part, it's his obligation to other players to take the best deal he can get.

Carr wasn't just the highest rated QB, he was the highest rated player. Well, he and Julius Peppers were neck and neck. Peppers could have made a great OLB in a 3-4, but I doubt they would use a #1 overall on that.

I don't know if anyone here is really a VY hater. I think the people for VY are Carr haters, but those that think they should stick with Carr respect VY and understand he is a phenomenal talent. At least from what I have read that's what I see. Just because someone doesn't think the team would be best served taking a certain player doesn't mean they don't like the guy. Teams pass on great players every year. Teams that have no holes can take the best available player. Teams that take the BPA when they have other needs frequently pick in the same spot each year. I'm thinking about the Lions specifically.

The Texans aren't in a position to draft in a position that they already have a suitable player. Is Carr a HOF player? It's too early in his career to tell, but I would say no. He'll probably have some very good seasons and earn a Pro Bowl appearance or more. Young has the abilities of being a HOF player. Is it a guarantee? No matter how many times anyone has watched him play they can't say for sure. There are no guarantees in the NFL.

 

[thunderkyss]

If Young was on the bench while Carr was on the field, Carr couldn't sneeze without hearing it from the Longhorn faithful. Drafting Young will force their hand to trade Carr and they won't get value out of him. Teams would know the Texans want to move him and offer little. It's not worth the $8 million cap hit they would take to move him.

You think that, because that is the way it worked out for Montana when Young started?? or Trent, when Warner started?? or Brees, after they drafted Rivers?? or Cunningham after Culpepper started?? or Bledsoe when Brady took over?? hmmmmm

Carr wasn't just the highest rated QB, he was the highest rated player. Well, he and Julius Peppers were neck and neck. Peppers could have made a great OLB in a 3-4, but I doubt they would use a #1 overall on that.

Has any of the QBs from that draft done anything worth talking about??

I don't know if anyone here is really a VY hater. I think the people for VY are Carr haters, but those that think they should stick with Carr respect VY and understand he is a phenomenal talent. At least from what I have read that's what I see. Just because someone doesn't think the team would be best served taking a certain player doesn't mean they don't like the guy. Teams pass on great players every year. Teams that have no holes can take the best available player. Teams that take the BPA when they have other needs frequently pick in the same spot each year. I'm thinking about the Lions specifically.

I'm not a David Carr hater...... at the same time, I can't say he is a phenomenal talent either. If any of us could say that, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I do believe Carr is talented enough to play in the NFL. But I think the same is true for Kyle Boller, Steve Bulger, Vinny Testeverde, and a number of others. I think it was a mistake to have drafted Carr #1 overall. If we didn't have the #1 overall this year, I'd be thinking Jay Cutler if Vince doesn't drop to us.... If Vince went back to school, I'd be fighting for us to trade-down, and try to get Jay Cutler. Draft, and free agency...... I always think teams should be working towards making there team better. If you have an opportunity to take a BPA, you do. Detroit has got it all messed up, they've been taking the best WR three years running, and that isn't the same as BPA. I don't agree with the way they've been picking. I don't think it compares to what we've been doing, or with wanting to take Vince this year.

The Texans aren't in a position to draft in a position that they already have a suitable player. Is Carr a HOF player? It's too early in his career to tell, but I would say no. He'll probably have some very good seasons and earn a Pro Bowl appearance or more. Young has the abilities of being a HOF player. Is it a guarantee? No matter how many times anyone has watched him play they can't say for sure. There are no guarantees in the NFL.

But I think it would be a safe bet that Vince will make more pro-bowls than Carr. And when I say suitable, it is like the words Stop-Gap. Carr is good enough to hold the starting Position, until you find your Franchise guy.

If I thought we needed three OLmen, then yeah..... trade down. But I'd also admit that we are rebuilding, if you're going to scratch 3/5ths of your line, your tight end, and throw in another running back. Not to even mention the three players we need on defense.

 

[Vinny]

Carr wasn't just the highest rated QB, he was the highest rated player. Well, he and Julius Peppers were neck and neck.

That's just not accurate at all. Peppers had a higher grade in that draft from both the scouting services.

 

[kbourda]

Even if VY turns out to be as good as the best athletic QB in the league (McNabb and Vick) it will not translate into wins for the Texans. Look at what happened to McNabb when T.O. wigged out on him. and Mike Vick was totally ineffective this year without a receiving corps and a mediocre offensive line. The reason why we shouldn't take VY is that we can't afford to- too much money would need to be paid out and we have already invested too much in Carr.

Are you watching what you type? Don't you check what you have said afterwards? If not, let me hip you to a couple of things. McNabb and Vick during Carr's career here have made it to the playoffs several times. If you equate their success to VY, how is that a bad thing? McNabb did as well as you could with a hernia. When did Vick have a receiving corps to begin with? And I guess paying whomever with the #1 pick would be cheaper to sign than VY, right? Maybe this is just me but the #1 pick (that Carr is) should have high expectations than so-so. You didn't say he was so-so, I did. But when you don't see that a #1 pick isn't Pro_Bowl caliber and may never be, how can that be ok with you? That time I checked the Texans are paying Carr Pro Bowl money. Not Tony Banks money.

 

[DRAMA]

Michael Vick won because he had good coaching and great players...wr's aside. Either way, IMO Vick's average at the absolute best. 5'10", can't throw (Yes, I know he has a pretty spiral), can't read D's, makes terrible decisions, and is close to being a qb that runs every now and then. If Vick didn't run, we wouldn't trade Carr for that guy!

He runs and looks good running so he's a star. Otherwise, Vick is average at BEST! VY will be much better than Vick, IMHO!

 

[Frills]

If we trade down and gain an extra pick next season.. I'd like to have this guy.(sorry for the highjack) if I am not mistaken he is like 6'2 220 lbs or so and runs 4.4

http://www.adpeterson.com/index.html


back to topic.. problem I have with RB is, yes he is a homerun hit, yet if we can't get DD enough push to get the 3rd and 1's or on the goal line get that extra yard. How is Bush going to do it???

OU's O-line >>>>>>>>>>>Texans O-line

But its a damn good idea.

Texans draft Brick, let DD wear out some more

Texans draft AD to replace DD

 

[TexanBacker93]

I would like to retract my generalization statement. I don't think VY fans are necessarily Carr haters. There are a larger majority of the Carr haters that are VY fans than not, though.

I think the Montana/Young, Green/Warner situations were different. First off, Montana was already a Super Bowl winning QB at that point and Young wasn't a hometown kid. I think the main problem Carr would face is because Young is a hometown kid. Warner was a new addition to the roster and Green was hurt in the preseason. By the time he was healthy, Warner had led the Rams to a Super Bowl win.

Vinny, I double checked and you are correct. However, they were a few points off in the grading (one that I can think of right now with out looking had Peppers at 4.88 and Carr at 4.86). Both were pictured as Quality players that could probably see a few pro bowls. Unfortunately for that draft year it was weak as far as a top of the draft goes. He was considered the franchise QB prospect and was the smarter pick then. If the team could go back they might draft differently.

Vince Young, no matter how many diseases he has cured, no matter how many seas he has parted is not a guarantee. I think he will be a great QB, but it's not a lock. Reggie Bush is not a guarantee. D'Brickashaw is not a guarantee. There are no guarantees at this level. The team has more needs than a QB that may or may not be the greatest ever. If he was from any other school in America this wouldn't be a question. The NFL doesn't need to rely on local kids. Put a good product on the field and the fans could care less about where the player came from. The NFL is about the team. They don't promote the individuals like the NBA or MLB does.

I grant that I feel Young is an upgrade over Carr. Bush is an upgrade over Davis. D'Brickashaw is a big upgrade over Pitts because then Pitts is also an upgrade over Wade if he moves to RT. Williams is a huge upgrade over Babin or Peek or whoever else the team wants to play at DE. If you have an average power forward, an average point guard, and a poor shooting guard, and a poor center you don't draft the point guard that is the best player in the draft if there is a center that is right below him as far as talent, but improves your team more.

 

[thunderkyss]

Vince Young, no matter how many diseases he has cured, no matter how many seas he has parted is not a guarantee. I think he will be a great QB, but it's not a lock.

Carr isn't a lock.

If he was from any other school in America this wouldn't be a question. The NFL doesn't need to rely on local kids.

if he wasn't from Houston, you guys would be missing one arguing point.

I grant that I feel Young is an upgrade over Carr. Bush is an upgrade over Davis. D'Brickashaw is a big upgrade over Pitts because then Pitts is also an upgrade over Wade if he moves to RT. Williams is a huge upgrade over Babin or Peek or whoever else the team wants to play at DE. If you have an average power forward, an average point guard, and a poor shooting guard, and a poor center you don't draft the point guard that is the best player in the draft if there is a center that is right below him as far as talent, but improves your team more.

It depends. In Basketball, one man makes a huge difference. You can be like the sixers, and build your team around an undersized gaurd, or you can build around a 7' forward..... The Sixers have, and will have trouble winning the Championship, even though there are few talented gaurds as tough as Iverson. The Spurs on the other hand can take journeymen and high energy players like Ginobli, Parker, and Horry and win championships. I don't think you'd know those names if they weren't playing for Paupovich, with Tim Duncan(Horry excluded).

 

[TheOgre]

I don't think this thread starter is a coach. His phrasing and takes on the situation seem more like that of a high school or college student than that of an experienced coach.

 

[vtech9]

I would like to retract my generalization statement. I don't think VY fans are necessarily Carr haters. There are a larger majority of the Carr haters that are VY fans than not, though.

I think the Montana/Young, Green/Warner situations were different. First off, Montana was already a Super Bowl winning QB at that point and Young wasn't a hometown kid. I think the main problem Carr would face is because Young is a hometown kid. Warner was a new addition to the roster and Green was hurt in the preseason. By the time he was healthy, Warner had led the Rams to a Super Bowl win.

Vinny, I double checked and you are correct. However, they were a few points off in the grading (one that I can think of right now with out looking had Peppers at 4.88 and Carr at 4.86). Both were pictured as Quality players that could probably see a few pro bowls. Unfortunately for that draft year it was weak as far as a top of the draft goes. He was considered the franchise QB prospect and was the smarter pick then. If the team could go back they might draft differently.

Vince Young, no matter how many diseases he has cured, no matter how many seas he has parted is not a guarantee. I think he will be a great QB, but it's not a lock. Reggie Bush is not a guarantee. D'Brickashaw is not a guarantee. There are no guarantees at this level. The team has more needs than a QB that may or may not be the greatest ever. If he was from any other school in America this wouldn't be a question. The NFL doesn't need to rely on local kids. Put a good product on the field and the fans could care less about where the player came from. The NFL is about the team. They don't promote the individuals like the NBA or MLB does.

I grant that I feel Young is an upgrade over Carr. Bush is an upgrade over Davis. D'Brickashaw is a big upgrade over Pitts because then Pitts is also an upgrade over Wade if he moves to RT. Williams is a huge upgrade over Babin or Peek or whoever else the team wants to play at DE. If you have an average power forward, an average point guard, and a poor shooting guard, and a poor center you don't draft the point guard that is the best player in the draft if there is a center that is right below him as far as talent, but improves your team more.

For me personally, I don't particularly like the 'Horns, so Young coming from that school has nothing to do with it. The same goes for the reason I thought Ben Roethlesberger was the best QB coming out that year. I felt that Ben had better intangibles than either Rivers and Eli. I thought he showed better pocket presence, better leadership, and more confidence, than the other two. Right now I would say that Matt L. is more polished and ready for the NFL than Vince Y. is, but I also feel that Vince Y. has a much higher ceiling. I'm not against taking Matt L. or Vince Y., or even trading down. I think Matt will be the better choice in the short term, but I think Vince is by far the better choice in the long run because he has much more potential. That's the scary thing about Vince though, because Carr had so much potential.

Right now, David is equivalent to a Rookie IMHO. He still has to be taught how to be an NFL QB, he has to learn a new system, and he has to earn the respect of his teammates as well as prove that he is worth the money. The difference between a Rookie QB coming in and Carr, is that the fans won't give Carr the leeway to make mistakes and grow. Like Texans Chic said, Carr has lost the initial goodwill of the fans.

 

[HoustonFrog]

These threads are actually making me change my idea of drafting Bush and instead trading down for Defense. You get a guy who is a stud in Williams or the LBs like Hawk, you get extra picks to use on O-lineman that fit the zone scheme and TEs and not one Bush fan or VY fan can talk...lol.

 

[MorKnolle]

its called salary cap issues... we will only have 9 million left to get some lineman. last time i checked good lineman dont come cheap.

and as for the guy movin to the WC i am glad that you are from here and you stayed a Texan fan.. at least shows you are not a fair weather fan and I appreaciate that.

And drafting Vince and trading Carr will free up cap room? Vince will cost more than Bush and trading Carr is another $8 million off the cap.

 

[Carr Bombed]

These threads are actually making me change my idea of drafting Bush and instead trading down for Defense. You get a guy who is a stud in Williams or the LBs like Hawk, you get extra picks to use on O-lineman that fit the zone scheme and TEs and not one Bush fan or VY fan can talk...lol.

Even though I've blasted them before, (The trade downers), I'm starting to lean that way also. After almost two months of VY vs Reggie I'm getting tired of hearing about both. Trading down is starting to sound like the smart thing to do.

 

[TexanBacker93]

I admit that I was originally a Draft Bush guy. After I've done a more thorough look at the team I think trading down, getting extra picks, and improving the weakest areas of the team, O-Line and defense is the best option.

 

[MorKnolle]

Are you sure that had nothing to do with Kurt Warner?? No Kurt, No SuperBowl. Marshall was a big part of that, but he didn't bring that kinda play to Indy, and you haven't seen anything like it since Kurt Left.

Kurt Warner definitely had a big part in the Super Bowl runs, but I think Trent Green could have done about the same while Marshall was the guy that really kept that offense going as a running threat and a receiving threat out of the backfield (1381 rushing, 1048 receiving yards and 12 total TDs in 1999, his first year in St. Louis and the year they finally won the Super Bowl, 1359 rushing, 830 receiving yards, and 26 total TDs in 14 games in 2000, 1382 rushing, 765 receiving yards, and 21 total TDs in 14 games in 2001 and a Super Bowl loss that year).

Every thing here is true about David Carr, four years into the league. The word unique, however, doesn't mean the same thing in reference to Carr.

All players are technically unique, not sure where this one was going.

If Vince was my QB, I would try my best to keep him behind the line of scrimmage. Not so far as to ruin his game, but I want him to understand that I need him to throw the ball. I need to get him out of the pocket when the line collapses..... But I need him to make plays behind the line of scrimmage... that's what seperates McNabb/Culpepper from Vick. Vince by the way is a better passer than Dante & Donovan.

OK, so you would keep Vince behind the LOS as much as possible, therefore negating his most of his running skills, then he has to rely on his passing skills that are not anything great right now. Sure most people think he can improve his passing skills, but it's not that easy, otherwise Michael Vick would be a great passing QB now too. Keeping VY behind the LOS most of the time, as you want to do, basically makes him a bigger version of Michael Vick that may or may not be able to increase his passing abilities to make him a worthwhile pick. Funny how it used to be that Vince is a necessary pick because he can run all over the place, and now his wings are being clipped on that aspect of his game so what's left? As for him being better passers than Daunte Culpepper or Donovan McNabb right now, that is so far from being an accurate statement. In 3-5 years I can see Vince putting up numbers like McNabb did his 2nd and 3rd years in the league (58% completions, 3300 yards, 22 TDs, 13 INTS, 550 rushing yards) if he has a similar team to what McNabb had, but a year like McNabb had in 2004 (64% completions, 3875 yards, 31 TDs, 8 INTs, 104.7 rating)? I don't think so. McNabb started out as a running QB like VY will, but it took him six years, good coaching, and a great surrounding team to turn him into an efficient passing QB. As for Culpepper comparisons, I don't see VY having #s like Culpepper did in 2000 (63% completions, 3937 yards, 33 TDs, 16 INTs, 98.0 rating, 470 rushing yards) for a long time, or especially what Culpepper did in 2004 (69% completions, 4717 yards, 39 TDs, 11 INTs, 110.9 rating, 406 rushing yards). I don't see another season like Culpepper had in 2004 coming along again for a long, long time from anyone.

If you saw Vince in person, then you know he is more than just a running QB. If I had seen anything to make me think David had what it takes to raise the confidence level of his teammates......... then I would think he might be something special.

I don't know how seeing him in person alters any opinions on this, I'd prefer to see him in a game on TV or on actual game tape.

McNair's got it...... Brady, Peyton.... Big Ben.. yep he's got it.... Delhomme... got it........ Favre.... he's got so much, it spills over to the fans thinking they are better than what they are......

Vince has got it....

Carr, nope........ Bledsoe... un-un..... Moon......... no.... Brad Johnson doesn't have it(ring or no)....... Marino.. unfortunately didn't have it.... Randall Cuningham doesn't have it either....

Brad Johnosn illustrates that "it" isn't necessary to win a superbowl.... McNair, Peyton... illustrate that it doesn't garrantee a SuperBowl either....

But I would love to have a QB like that.

Back to the old ambiguous "IT" argument. I had a feeling it would resurface sometime soon.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Even though I've blasted them before, (The trade downers), I'm starting to lean that way also. After almost two months of VY vs Reggie I'm getting tired of hearing about both. Trading down is starting to sound like the smart thing to do.

Yeah I won't want O-line with the trade down Top 5'er but that stud D player would make me happy. I think the extra picks and along with already having 3 more in the Top 66 can fill some holes and we can find O-lineman to fit the new scheme. I still am not fond of the RB/QB combo we have but it may be best.

 

[Toxicology]

I'm going to assume that Kubiak gets to make the call on the first pick. With that, we need to peer into his mindset. I think there's a lot more downside with him staying with Carr over Young.

1. If he stays with Carr - he better be right and they need to win quickly. Expectations will be a 7-9 season or so. Bush better not be a bust. After all, it was the coaches fault that we slid to 2-14. With Carr being coached up, and with 4 draft picks in the first 66, we should be able to get back to 7-9. Those will be the expectations, fair or not. After that, we better be in the playoff hunt. (nevermind what things would be like if VY goes nuts for the Titans)

2. If he goes with VY, the pressure's off. Expectations will be measured and we're basically starting over. Since the selection would be VY, the fans will be kind enough to give a "new honeymoon period." Enthusias will be at a new high - like when we did the expansion draft. VY won't be expected to do much until the 2nd half of 2006-2007 season, at the earlist. He takes the helm in 2007 full time . . . after we have completed the painful transition into a 4-3 defense.

In short, Kubiak will decide what he thinks is best for the team. But I submit that there's a strong incentive for him to choose VY, an incentive that is best for him.

Now, if Kubiak decides that VY is the right choice, can he sell McNair on it? I have to think that McNair didn't hire Kubiak only to tell him what to do with the most important decision.

 

[SESupergenius]

Alot of time goes into the games and its not XBOX or MADDEN, its real out there. And again VY is more of a threat than DC will ever be. Overall VY is just harder to prepare for and dont worry I dont like UT but VY just makes people around him better, something DC has never done in his four years. I know I will get plenty of feedback on this but trust me on this one... I hope the Texans have something up there sleeve because its not looking good ..... AGAIN

Casserly is an NFL GM, I don't think he is very good, so I am supposed take what you give as the gospel just because you say you are a coach. Um...no thanks. Kijana Carter was the next best think to Dickerson according to a lot of coaches. So much for that being an absolute.

 

[MorKnolle]

I'm going to assume that Kubiak gets to make the call on the first pick. With that, we need to peer into his mindset. I think there's a lot more downside with him staying with Carr over Young.

1. If he stays with Carr - he better be right and they need to win quickly. Expectations will be a 7-9 season or so. Bush better not be a bust. After all, it was the coaches fault that we slid to 2-14. With Carr being coached up, and with 4 draft picks in the first 66, we should be able to get back to 7-9. Those will be the expectations, fair or not. After that, we better be in the playoff hunt. (nevermind what things would be like if VY goes nuts for the Titans)

2. If he goes with VY, the pressure's off. Expectations will be measured and we're basically starting over. Since the selection would be VY, the fans will be kind enough to give a "new honeymoon period." Enthusias will be at a new high - like when we did the expansion draft. VY won't be expected to do much until the 2nd half of 2006-2007 season, at the earlist. He takes the helm in 2007 full time . . . after we have completed the painful transition into a 4-3 defense.

In short, Kubiak will decide what he thinks is best for the team. But I submit that there's a strong incentive for him to choose VY, an incentive that is best for him.

Now, if Kubiak decides that VY is the right choice, can he sell McNair on it? I have to think that McNair didn't hire Kubiak only to tell him what to do with the most important decision.

Can we drop this argument already? VY is not going to "go nuts" with the Titans this coming season for a number of reasons, so that whole argument on how that could help sway our decision should be thrown out.

1) The Titans have Steve McNair, Vince is not about to start over him this year, probably not in 2007.

2) The Titans are almost as lousy of a team as us. McNair only managed 3160 yards, 16 TDs, and 11 INTs (82.4 rating) for them this year, so Vince isn't going to somehow do that much better if he even gets to play significant time.

3) The Titans for at least the 2nd year in a row are in major slary cap trouble. They are going to have to make widespread cuts and restructurings like they did last year, which will cut away at what little talent they do have (FYI Drew Bennett and Tyrone Calico are their top two receiving threats right now and are not any better than Andre and Mathis).

There are probably some other valid reasons I can think of, but for now I'll leave it at this. I agree that if we pass on Vince (or should I say after we do) that many fans will have less patience if Carr doesn't step up immediately (some of that impatience is justified, but at the same time the entire team is learning a new system not just our QB, so a little adjustment time will likely be necessary), but can we throw out this added argument of Vince maybe/likely going "nuts" somewhere else? That much isn't going to happen on almost any team, especially the Titans.

 

[TexanBacker93]

I'm going to assume that Kubiak gets to make the call on the first pick. With that, we need to peer into his mindset. I think there's a lot more downside with him staying with Carr over Young.

2. If he goes with VY, the pressure's off. Expectations will be measured and we're basically starting over. Since the selection would be VY, the fans will be kind enough to give a "new honeymoon period." Enthusias will be at a new high - like when we did the expansion draft. VY won't be expected to do much until the 2nd half of 2006-2007 season, at the earlist. He takes the helm in 2007 full time . . . after we have completed the painful transition into a 4-3 defense.

The pressure won't be off for long. Young would be sitting on the bench the first season (hopefully) to learn and grow. The team would be awful again and have a low pick next season. Meanwhile the stadium was once again half empty because the fans aren't going to go watch a lousy team even if Young is on the team. They would need to win big that next season. If they aren't in the playoffs by 2007 the team will see a GM change and then probably a coaching change again.

Enthusiasm is bred by winning. Adding a playmaker of Young's talent won't help in the long run if they don't win.

 

[Toxicology]

Can we drop this argument already? VY is not going to "go nuts" with the Titans this coming season for a number of reasons, so that whole argument on how that could help sway our decision should be thrown out.

. . .

I agree that if we pass on Vince (or should I say after we do) that many fans will have less patience if Carr doesn't step up immediately (some of that impatience is justified, but at the same time the entire team is learning a new system not just our QB, so a little adjustment time will likely be necessary),

the Vy going nuts was an aside (thus in parenthesis). Agreed, it's unlikely that he'll do anything fantastic in 2006-7. My point should have been phrased more like - fans will be wondering what might be if VY were here. Nevermind that VY isn't likely to do anything in 2006-7. Fans will be rumbling if we don't do decently with Carr.

Your comment re patience with Carr is what I'm more interested in discussing. The precise point I'm trying to explore is whether Kubiak will consider this in his decision making. I have to believe that it will be a factor.

 

[Toxicology]

The pressure won't be off for long. Young would be sitting on the bench the first season (hopefully) to learn and grow. The team would be awful again and have a low pick next season. Meanwhile the stadium was once again half empty because the fans aren't going to go watch a lousy team even if Young is on the team. They would need to win big that next season. If they aren't in the playoffs by 2007 the team will see a GM change and then probably a coaching change again.

Enthusiasm is bred by winning. Adding a playmaker of Young's talent won't help in the long run if they don't win.

I agree generally, but I think fans will be patient in VY's first year as QB. Fans won't be expecting all that much in 2007-2008. Toward the back half of that season, we would hear some grubling if he looks clueless.

It seems you discount "fan expectations" as part of Kubiak's decisionmaking process. I think it's highly relevant.

 

[jerek]

I agree generally, but I think fans will be patient in VY's first year as QB. Fans won't be expecting all that much in 2007-2008. Toward the back half of that season, we would hear some grubling if he looks clueless.

It seems you discount "fan expectations" as part of Kubiak's decisionmaking process. I think it's highly relevant.

Fans? Or Vince Young fans?

Don't get me wrong. Texans blue all the way. But if I have to watch Vince hack his way through his first two seasons ... I have sat through bad coaching for four years, I don't want to sit through a rookie QB for another 2-3.

That is the difference between two fans (you and I) ... but don't start saying "fans" regarding patience for Young, as if there is one and only one category of them. According to the David Carr poll posted not long back, Vincers are 4:1 underdogs right now, and this on a MB that is decidedly far more generous to Vince and his place on this team than the national media/anaylsts.

 

[billtxus]

While it is more likely they will draft RB over VY, I think they had to pay DC just to get anything from should someday they wish to trade him.

While I like VY, to me if they draft him its like starting over from scratch. We will have to wait a year, two, maybe longer for VY to learn the pro game, so he could even start. With David the team could easily be an above .500 team next year.

My concerns about VY are these. In college he was a man among boys. Whenever he got in trouble he could run, and it would take more than one guy to bring him down. I saw McNabb the first few years, and Vick, everytime they went back to pass the first option was run. For Vick this still goes one, McNabb has finally turned into a decent QB, but it took 6-7 years?

VY didn't have to read defenses, he didn't have to play a pro-style offense where he dropped back, and he played on a team which other than a couple of games a year completely overmatched its opponents. Playing against teams like North Texas State, or SW Lousiana St, even the Big 12 wasn't much this past year.

Whenever I've seen college players who were men among boys go to the pros, the dropoff has been very significant. They are used to bullying their way around and can't do that in the pros. The have to learn the fundementals of the game. Not saying VY can't or won't learn them, just wondering how long it will take.

So my question to you would be how long will it take VY to be a pro-bowl QB?

 

[Texans_Chick]

There are probably some other valid reasons I can think of, but for now I'll leave it at this. I agree that if we pass on Vince (or should I say after we do) that many fans will have less patience if Carr doesn't step up immediately (some of that impatience is justified, but at the same time the entire team is learning a new system not just our QB, so a little adjustment time will likely be necessary), but can we throw out this added argument of Vince maybe/likely going "nuts" somewhere else? That much isn't going to happen on almost any team, especially the Titans.

Whether it is fair or not, the fans have very little patience with David Carr left. You come to a team with a reserve of good will, and over time it erodes if people aren't seeing good play.

Learning a new system takes time, but I believe people are sick of the recurrent is this David Carr's break out year question. I like him more than many, but he has become a national punchline--not just another QB with promise. Some of the ugliniest things I've heard about DC have been just in the tailgate. With new coaching, if things don't get better fast, it will be bigtime ugly. Fair or unfair, it is just the way it will be.

If VY gets on to the team, though people expect great things from him, he is not expected to learn everything immediately. With the general populace sorta fans, they are willing to wait to see him progress.

But whether or not he can immediately make an impact with the Titans, there is no doubt that there will be some angry Texans fans about that. It is just human nature and you can try to ignore that, but it just is what it is.

 

[expwrlifter]

texan chick i like that last post. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about DC is a good QB but he just needs a different place to start. Steve Young did it and so did Brett Favre.

As for you guys that keep questioning my coaching profession which is normal because heck you guys question the NFL coaches on Sunday... and dont say you dont because you do...
YOu have to adjust your offense to any personnel and dont say you dont because any coach will tell you have to adjust your defense (cowboys) and offense to your personnel.. If you dont have good WRs you modify your offense to fit your best personnel...which maybe RBs...If you dont have enough LBs then you go to be a 4-3 or enough DE you go to a 3-4. Thats why Babin wasnt any good because he never was a LB in college he played a DE in the 4-3. As for VY they used his strength while he was at UT just like they did when he was at Madison HS.. but he didnt start out this way at Madison. They had to adjust the offense to get the best use out of the QB. For example The Redskins did the same this year and went to a shotgun formation to help Brunnell get better numbers.. JAX did the same with Leftwich.. Last time i checked these two teams went to the playoffs.
Heck two years ago when ATL made it to the playoffs with Mora and his first year he said he was going to allow MV to be MV and it paid off. This year was bad due to alot of injuries and no WR's.

Its that way all the way around and if you try to say you dont change schemes then you really dont know football.. And im sure I will get questioned again and its okay Im used to it... its normal in my profession.. dont you think you get questioned in yours...

 

[Toxicology]

Fans? Or Vince Young fans?

Don't get me wrong. Texans blue all the way. But if I have to watch Vince hack his way through his first two seasons ... I have sat through bad coaching for four years, I don't want to sit through a rookie QB for another 2-3.

That is the difference between two fans (you and I) ... but don't start saying "fans" regarding patience for Young, as if there is one and only one category of them. According to the David Carr poll posted not long back, Vincers are 4:1 underdogs right now, and this on a MB that is decidedly far more generous to Vince and his place on this team than the national media/anaylsts.

You make a good point - there are probably several pockets or subgroups of "fans" that have different patience levels. But is that fact relevant to Kubiak's decisionmaking process? I think Kubiak gets that some "more educated" fans understand that the transition to the 4-3 and new offensive scheme will hinder progress and should temper expectations. But that's the brain talking. Fan patience is also emotional and like it or not, if Kubes keeps Carr, patience will run thin if we don't start next season well. And he knows that.

By the way, as between you and I - I don't know what you favor but I am a proponent of drafting VY. It's quite odd. I have followed pro football for 25 years. I am categorically against "run first" quarterbacks. Philosophically, I think you should have a pocket passer with some mobility in today's game. Not the other way around.

But Vince Young makes me want to chuck my belief system in football. I don't know how else to explain it. As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination. He is truly off the charts. I think VY will be no worse than steve mcnair. I think he will probably be a donovan McNabb once he learns that his legs will make plays, but his mind and arm will win games. I think there's a good chance that he could become the best QB in the league. For those that like math, I'd say there's 15% chance that VY will be a bust (for a #1 pick, that means no better than Mike Vick); 40% chance he'll be like Steve McNair; 30% chance he'll be like Donovan McNabb (league mvp); 15% chance he'll be the best QB in the league. I can mess with the numbers a bit, but that's close to my thinking.

 

[Toxicology]

McNabb has finally turned into a decent QB, but it took 6-7 years?


So my question to you would be how long will it take VY to be a pro-bowl QB?

McNabb is a perennial league MVP candidate. Not a "decent QB." And the fans booed the hell out of that selection.

I think VY's progression will take something like McNabb's. If that's what I'd get by taking him, I do it in a heartbeat.

 

[expwrlifter]

orginally posted by:Toxicology

As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination.

Cant coach that... you either have it or you dont...

 

[thunderkyss]

Kurt Warner definitely had a big part in the Super Bowl runs, but I think Trent Green could have done about the same while Marshall was the guy that really kept that offense going as a running threat and a receiving threat out of the backfield.

OK...... & your point??

All players are technically unique, not sure where this one was going.

OK, so you would keep Vince behind the LOS as much as possible, therefore negating his most of his running skills, then he has to rely on his passing skills that are not anything great right now. Sure most people think he can improve his passing skills, but it's not that easy, otherwise Michael Vick would be a great passing QB now too. Keeping VY behind the LOS most of the time, as you want to do, basically makes him a bigger version of Michael Vick that may or may not be able to increase his passing abilities to make him a worthwhile pick. Funny how it used to be that Vince is a necessary pick because he can run all over the place, and now his wings are being clipped on that aspect of his game so what's left? As for him being better passers than Daunte Culpepper or Donovan McNabb right now, that is so far from being an accurate statement. In 3-5 years I can see Vince putting up numbers like McNabb did his 2nd and 3rd years in the league (58% completions, 3300 yards, 22 TDs, 13 INTS, 550 rushing yards) if he has a similar team to what McNabb had, but a year like McNabb had in 2004 (64% completions, 3875 yards, 31 TDs, 8 INTs, 104.7 rating)? I don't think so. McNabb started out as a running QB like VY will, but it took him six years, good coaching, and a great surrounding team to turn him into an efficient passing QB. As for Culpepper comparisons, I don't see VY having #s like Culpepper did in 2000 (63% completions, 3937 yards, 33 TDs, 16 INTs, 98.0 rating, 470 rushing yards) for a long time, or especially what Culpepper did in 2004 (69% completions, 4717 yards, 39 TDs, 11 INTs, 110.9 rating, 406 rushing yards). I don't see another season like Culpepper had in 2004 coming along again for a long, long time from anyone.

I've never said that Vince's rushing ability was a big reason I wanted to draft him. I've never compared Vince to Vick. I've always compared him to McNabb & Culpepper. Both who makes plays behind the line of scrimmage. Which, isn't the same thing as staying in the pocket. I like Vince because of his ability to make plays when the plays breakdown, for whatever reason. Having Wheels, is a big part of that. But I've always said that his play from Center to sideline is what attracts me to him, and that he plays that game better than Carr. He looks down field when he runs.. sometimes still looking at multiple recievers. He pump fakes, he jukes, he freezes the defense, and he throws better on the run than David. If I said he's a better passer than McNabb & Culpepper now, then I messed up. I do believe he is a better passer than Vick now, and better than Culpepper/McNabb, when they came out of college.

I don't know how seeing him in person alters any opinions on this, I'd prefer to see him in a game on TV or on actual game tape.

I'd just imagine that you could feel the "it" if you were in the crowd. That, and I hear TV doesn't capture the Halo effect emmitted from his greatness.

Back to the old ambiguous "IT" argument. I had a feeling it would resurface sometime soon.

 

[TexanBacker93]

I agree generally, but I think fans will be patient in VY's first year as QB. Fans won't be expecting all that much in 2007-2008. Toward the back half of that season, we would hear some grubling if he looks clueless.

It seems you discount "fan expectations" as part of Kubiak's decisionmaking process. I think it's highly relevant.

I'm not discounting fan expectations at all. You are blinded if you think the fans will sit and be content with a subpar team over the next few years. There are a lot more non-UT Texans fans than UT Texans fans. Those UT fans are the ones that might patiently wait for the team to blossom over the next 4 years with Young. The majority of the fans are going to expect to see results sooner. McNair has said this as well. If you want to win sooner you don't draft a rookie QB onto a team with a lot of holes. Roethlisberger stepped into a team that had everything it needed but a QB. Young would not be stepping into that situation here.

 

[infantrycak]

Thats why Babin wasnt any good because he never was a LB in college he played a DE in the 4-3.

That really doesn't seem like a statement a coach would make or heck even a long time NFL observer. Most OLB's in a 3-4 were DE's in college, such as:

Clark Haggans, Joey Porter, Roosevelt Colvin, Tully Banta Cain, Monty Beisel, Kailee Wong, Charlie Anderson, Antwan Peek,Teddy Brushci, Demarcus Ware, Shaun Merriman, Willie McGinist, etc.

 

[tulexan]

orginally posted by:Toxicology

As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination.

Cant coach that... you either have it or you dont...

Vince Lombardi would disagree with you.

 

[jerek]

texan chick i like that last post. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about DC is a good QB but he just needs a different place to start. Steve Young did it and so did Brett Favre.

As for you guys that keep questioning my coaching profession which is normal because heck you guys question the NFL coaches on Sunday... and dont say you dont because you do...
YOu have to adjust your offense to any personnel and dont say you dont because any coach will tell you have to adjust your defense (cowboys) and offense to your personnel.. If you dont have good WRs you modify your offense to fit your best personnel...which maybe RBs...If you dont have enough LBs then you go to be a 4-3 or enough DE you go to a 3-4. Thats why Babin wasnt any good because he never was a LB in college he played a DE in the 4-3. As for VY they used his strength while he was at UT just like they did when he was at Madison HS.. but he didnt start out this way at Madison. They had to adjust the offense to get the best use out of the QB. For example The Redskins did the same this year and went to a shotgun formation to help Brunnell get better numbers.. JAX did the same with Leftwich.. Last time i checked these two teams went to the playoffs.
Heck two years ago when ATL made it to the playoffs with Mora and his first year he said he was going to allow MV to be MV and it paid off. This year was bad due to alot of injuries and no WR's.

Its that way all the way around and if you try to say you dont change schemes then you really dont know football.. And im sure I will get questioned again and its okay Im used to it... its normal in my profession.. dont you think you get questioned in yours...

Exp, I don't agree with your stance on VY, but truth be told you are dead on about the necessity of being a coach and adjusting your game. Many if not all of the consistently elite coaches adjust their game, sometimes season by season, based on the personnel they have. Coach K at Duke is famous for this; read his book sometime, I highly recommend it. He spends page after page describing how he successfully tailored the Duke game to each class's players' strengths, and yes, their weaknesses too. In my own coaching experiences, even at the lower levels, that has been very necessary.

There is a difference between coaching junior high and NFL, no doubt, but there are still many constants between the two and I believe that a key ingredient of leadership is utilizing your players to their utmost in designing for their individual strengths, while minimizing their reliance on weak aspects of their individual games. It has been one of the utmost keys to my own coaching successes at this point in my life.

As for Vince, it is not that I do not believe he won't be a good NFL player - I believe he will. He has shown a lot of skills and some solid intangibles as well, and giving him time to polish his stuff under pro conditions, I believe he will be a good, possibly great, pro quarterback. However, I still believe that Carr can and will get it done in Houston, with Kubiak, and being that we have Carr who is at worst serviceable and at best good, I think we need to use the pick elsewhere (and I don't necessarily mean Bush: I would like us to trade the pick if we can secure a good deal and use the extra draft real estate wisely.)

While I am not convinced that DC is a first-ballot HOFer, the next Elway, or what have you, I have seen Super Bowls won on the shoulders of average quarterbacks who played for outstanding coaching staffs who built an all-round, good team. I know that DC can be average, and I do firmly believe that he has the potential to be much better. I appreciate the staggering team aspect to this game of football and believe that DC is a hard-working guy with sufficient talent to get it done, quite possibly at a high level, and I would like to use the #1 to address other, worse needs on our team. That is my basis for not drafting Vince.

Long story short, I agree with your stance on coaching to the strengths of your personnel, and just wanted to add to it.