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Current O-Line Stats Breakdown

TEXANS84

TEXANS84

Moderator
Staff member
Here are the most current offensive line stats per snap.stats:

*LT Victor Riley-
2 false starts
0 holding penalties
6.50 sacks allowed Stats

*LG Chester Pitts-
0 false starts
0 holding penalties
2.50 sacks allowed Stats

*C Steve McKinney-
0 false starts
0 holding penalties
2.50 sacks allowed Stats

*RG Zach Weigert-
0 false starts
0 holding penalties
.5 sacks allowed
Stats

*RT Todd Wade-
2 false starts
1 holding penalties
5.00 sacks allowed
Stats


Unfortunatley, stats of sacks allowed for runningbacks/fullbacks/and tight ends were not available, but the list does add up to 17.0 sacks for the offensive line. So that leaves a difference of 10 sacks to split between them and David Carr.

Is the offensive line really the problem?
 
Well, I think you're asking the wrong question really. You're asking if the offensive line is really the problem which kind of implies that there's "a" problem. That's not really saying it all though. There's more than one problem.

In 4 games the offensive line has given up 14.5 sacks which puts them on a 58 sack pace even if everyone else who's supposed to be blocking (or getting rid of the ball in a reasonable amount of time) is perfect. 58 sacks tells me that yeah, the offensive line is "a" problem.

David Carr and the runningbacks have given up 12.5 which comes out to 50 sacks this year. Even if the line didn't allow a single sack I'm thinking 50 is too high. This is another problem.

Going back and forth over who sucks more, the line or the QB/RB's is pointless. They all suck and right now they almost all suck about the same amount.
 
think about it this way...any solid playoff calibur team only gives up on average around 25-30 sacks a season and almost doubles that defensively...that's where we are 24 sacks in the negative...that will not win any football games in the NFL
 
I'm a tad bit shocked that Weigert is the sack leader of the line at the moment. I am also shocked at the play of McKinney and Pitts.
 
TEXANS84 said:
I'm a tad bit shocked that Weigert is the sack leader of the line at the moment. I am also shocked at the play of McKinney and Pitts.
Click to expand...

I am as well. Where did you get the breakdown? What is the methodology, as in how does one get credit for a sack?

Sorry for the directness, just interested.
 
I think when McKinney decided to double the tackle instead of blocking Bullock's direct path to David Carr, he should be attributed with 1 full sack :)
 
blockhead83 said:
I think when McKinney decided to double the tackle instead of blocking Bullock's direct path to David Carr, he should be attributed with 1 full sack :)
Click to expand...

This is the danger of us fans "grading tape". We think we know what we see, but we don't know a lot of the nitty-gritty details. I'm not one to defend McKinney, but on that play we don't know what the line calls were, so we don't know who was supposed to do what. It is possible that the line was supposed to move left and that was really Weigert's guy, or maybe there was supposed to be a hot read and Carr was supposed to throw the ball, or maybe it was the running back's guy - we just don't know.

These stats don't show hurries and stuff though, or pressures that result in short runs by Carr or incomplete passes. It doesn't show performance in run blocking either.

I guess the lesson is we fans really need to recognize the limits of our knowledge.

It does appear that our tackles are not playing well at all.

Thanks for posting these stats, I did a short search for something like this but couldn't find them.
 
alright...lets get more specific.

d-linemen vs blitzers. (lb's, safetys, and corners...)

the line shifts constantly to pick up blitzers. im sure these stats are black and white. rg put a hand on----? blitzing mlb so he gets credit for giving up the sack...

this is not a black and white stat. there is a vast gray area here.

and who calls the blocking assignments? mckinney. thats been one constant since day 1. even if you think he's been much better this year then in previous years his "cerebral responsibilities" deserve some blame. obviously what we're doing isnt working.

anywho---to get back on track...how bout a break down of d-linemen sacks vs other sacks against our line...?
 
Wiegert has .5 sacks this year and 5.0 sacks last year.

Stats, Inc. generally has an explanation section for how they derive their stats. I believe they attribute sacks to the last player with the responsibility to prevent the sack which often drives stats to the RB's/TE's. These stats are much more useful for comparing team to team and around the league than for individual performance game to game. They naturally pile on the tackles when the center collapses and the QB has no room to step up, the tackle can't ride the DE around the play and gets full credit for the sack. Eyeballs on the tape is still most important to know if that is the problem or as in Houston, if there is pressure in the middle (a center wearing a grass skirt welcoming players to the luau), from the left (a LT who looks like the victim of a mob hit in his cement shoes) and from the right (where the Texans have the only 6' 8" matador in history) and a QB running for his life screaming like a woman.

Wanna guess how hard a team will try to protect a $100 mil QB--Manning has been sacked 1 time this year in 5 games. How about being the only loser on that OL to have given up a sack?
 
TEXANS84 said:
Here are the most current offensive line stats per snap.stats:

*LT Victor Riley-
2 false starts
0 holding penalties
4.50 sacks allowed Stats
Click to expand...
Did anyone else click this hyperlink to see that Riley allowed 11 sacks last year playing for New Orleans as a "Right Tackle?" Yeah, he's our answer to play left tackle. :wacko:
 
powda said:
and who calls the blocking assignments? mckinney. thats been one constant since day 1. even if you think he's been much better this year then in previous years his "cerebral responsibilities" deserve some blame. obviously what we're doing isnt working.
Click to expand...

This assumes that in the seconds between McKinney's calls and the snap everyone on the line correctly decides what they have to do and then does the right thing.
 
Runner said:
This assumes that in the seconds between McKinney's calls and the snap everyone on the line correctly decides what they have to do and then does the right thing.
Click to expand...


they dont decide. mckinney does.

even a space monkey can be trained to push the red button vs the blue button with the proper prompts. i'd like to hope i can give our line that much credit....
 
powda said:
they dont decide. mckinney does.

even a space monkey can be trained to push the red button vs the blue button with the proper prompts. i'd like to hope i can give our line that much credit....
Click to expand...

By "decide" I mean after McKinney makes a call they look and "decide" who they are responsible for given the call and the defensive set.

I'd hope they could do that too, but the defense is also trying to fool them by moving around, showing fake blitzes, disguising blitzes and such.

The line has problems, and I'm trying to point out some (maybe) non-obvious things for discussion. Not all threads have to follow the normal structure of:

Joe sucks.

No Bill sucks.

They both suck.

Fire them all!
 
Runner said:
By "decide" I mean after McKinney makes a call they look and "decide" who they are responsible for given the call and the defensive set.

I'd hope they could do that too, but the defense is also trying to fool them by moving around, showing fake blitzes, disguising blitzes and such.

The line has problems, and I'm trying to point out some (maybe) non-obvious things for discussion. Not all threads have to follow the normal structure of:

Joe sucks.

No Bill sucks.

They both suck.

Fire them all!
Click to expand...

Dom Sucks!


:heh:
 
I think its a nice thought...but you cant grade out linemen with stats. There are just too many variables, you lose the physical dynamic, and there are too many factors that go into good lineplay that you cannot see with a list of numbers that may hinge on the play call, the protection call or the lack of help a guy was supposed to get but may not have gotten.
 
powda said:
they dont decide. mckinney does.

even a space monkey can be trained to push the red button vs the blue button with the proper prompts. i'd like to hope i can give our line that much credit....
Click to expand...

Yea, but McKinney's problem was he thought it was pink and green. No wonder he couldn't get them to push the right buttons.
 
Id like to hear Dom's response to that play if someone could like post a transcript or the valuable information in a non biased format i would appreciate reading it tomorrow. Robert paulsons in the Fire Capers Club need not apply
 
infantrycak said:
Wiegert has .5 sacks this year and 5.0 sacks last year.
Click to expand...

Good catch. I adjusted the stats on the first post to reflect.

O-line is now credited with 10 sacks, instead of 14.5. 17 remain with the runningbacks/fullbacks/tight ends/ and quarterback.

And the main point of this post was to wonder where the remaining 17 sacks are being credited to. Sure, we can beat up Victor Riley all day long, but is Domanick making his neccessary blocks? Did Moran Norris let the blitzing linebacker run right by him? Or is David Carr pretty much sacking himself?
 
Vinny said:
I think its a nice thought...but you cant grade out linemen with stats. There are just too many variables, you lose the physical dynamic, and there are too many factors that go into good lineplay that you cannot see with a list of numbers that may hinge on the play call, the protection call or the lack of help a guy was supposed to get but may not have gotten.
Click to expand...

I agree. They all suck.
 
TEXANS84 said:
And the main point of this post was to wonder where the remaining 17 sacks are being credited to. Sure, we can beat up Victor Riley all day long, but is Domanick making his neccessary blocks? Did Moran Norris let the blitzing linebacker run right by him? Or is David Carr pretty much sacking himself?
Click to expand...
I think that is good to bring to the table for general purposes...I'm just referring to everyone else making too much out of them in relation to how good X player is or Y player is, and isn't always a good reflection of who is doing a great job and who isn't....hard to use the word great in that sentence though.
 
blockhead83 said:
I think when McKinney decided to double the tackle instead of blocking Bullock's direct path to David Carr, he should be attributed with 1 full sack :)
Click to expand...

The stats just updated, and I changed them on the very first post.


McKinney is now credited with 2.50 sacks, a jump in two from yesterday.


Riley is still leading the team with 6.50.

Offensive line adds up to 17 combined sacks now, with 10 sacks un-credited.
 
TEXANS84 said:
I'm a tad bit shocked that Weigert is the sack leader of the line at the moment. I am also shocked at the play of McKinney and Pitts.
Click to expand...
The brunt of the pressure comes off the edge(s) and the best pass rushers
play on the edge (DE & OLB)., therefor to start with/all other things being = you'd expect the O tackles to have higher sack numbers than guards & center .
 
TEXANS84 said:
Riley is still leading the team with 6.50.
Click to expand...

So for what it is worth, it now stands at:

Riley--6.5
Pitts--2.5
McKinney--2.5
Wiegert--.5
Wade--5

Riley is on pace for 26 sacks this year. Obviously he shouldn't stand any competition from someone who gave up 12.5 sacks last year. Amazing that these coaches feel Riley is clearly, undisputably one of the best 5 OLmen.
 
TEXANS84 said:
Here are the most current offensive line stats per snap.stats:

*LT Victor Riley-
2 false starts
0 holding penalties
6.50 sacks allowed Stats

*LG Chester Pitts-
0 false starts
0 holding penalties
2.50 sacks allowed Stats

*C Steve McKinney-
0 false starts
0 holding penalties
2.50 sacks allowed Stats

*RG Zach Weigert-
0 false starts
0 holding penalties
.5 sacks allowed
Stats

*RT Todd Wade-
2 false starts
1 holding penalties
5.00 sacks allowed
Stats


Unfortunatley, stats of sacks allowed for runningbacks/fullbacks/and tight ends were not available, but the list does add up to 17.0 sacks for the offensive line. So that leaves a difference of 10 sacks to split between them and David Carr.

Is the offensive line really the problem?
Click to expand...

17 sacks in 4 games is still pretty horrible. That's 68 sacks over the course of a year.
 
infantrycak said:
So for what it is worth, it now stands at:

Riley--6.5
Pitts--2.5
McKinney--2.5
Wiegert--.5
Wade--5

Riley is on pace for 26 sacks this year. Obviously he shouldn't stand any competition from someone who gave up 12.5 sacks last year. Amazing that these coaches feel Riley is clearly, undisputably one of the best 5 OLmen.
Click to expand...

Projections: Pitts and McKinney - both 10. Wade - 20. Weigert - 2

Thank god for Weigert or this line would look bad!

It'll be interesting to see if Pitts' numbers go up in the harder position of LT.

That 12.5 last year looks pretty good.
 
Runner said:
Projections: Pitts and McKinney - both 10. Wade - 20. Weigert - 2

Thank god for Weigert or this line would look bad!

It'll be interesting to see if Pitts' numbers go up in the harder position of LT.

That 12.5 last year looks pretty good.
Click to expand...

It's a sad state of affairs when we would be happy with 1 player giving up as many sacks as the entire Colts offense last season.
 
Well, I think you're asking the wrong question really. You're asking if the offensive line is really the problem which kind of implies that there's "a" problem. That's not really saying it all though. There's more than one problem.

In 4 games the offensive line has given up 14.5 sacks which puts them on a 58 sack pace even if everyone else who's supposed to be blocking (or getting rid of the ball in a reasonable amount of time) is perfect. 58 sacks tells me that yeah, the offensive line is "a" problem.

David Carr and the runningbacks have given up 12.5 which comes out to 50 sacks this year. Even if the line didn't allow a single sack I'm thinking 50 is too high. This is another problem.

Going back and forth over who sucks more, the line or the QB/RB's is pointless. They all suck and right now they almost all suck about the same amount.
Click to expand...

I might be misreading something, but it appears to me your calculations are slightly off. Your point remains valid, so it really doesn't matter. 17 sacks at the quarter mark is 68 on the year - entirely too many allowed by the O-line. the 10 remaining is 40 on the year - entirely too many. How many of those 40 are on Carr and how many are on the backs? Another question that I don't know the answer to -- how do they grade out sacks for blitzers when there is no one there to pick it up?

Anyway, it's all just fodder for conversation, because they are all falling down on the job.
 
Runner said:
It'll be interesting to see if Pitts' numbers go up in the harder position of LT.
Click to expand...

Although Chester had a horrible first year at LT with over 15 sacks credited to him, 2003 was extremely better from that position with only 5.75 surrendered. That's a drop in over 9.25 sacks.

Hopefully he pans out.
 
Pitts' number is almost undoubtedly higher than it would be if a decent or even semi-decent *cough* 12.5 sack Wand *cough* LT was next to him instead of the human turnstyle. Actually the human turnstyle isn't really accurate for Riley--he can't get spun very fast because his moment of inertia is too high with his big belly and heaving man breasts--swinging door works better for him.
 
infantrycak said:
Pitts' number is almost undoubtedly higher than it would be if a decent or even semi-decent *cough* 12.5 sack Wand *cough* LT was next to him instead of the human turnstyle. Actually the human turnstyle isn't really accurate for Riley--he can't get spun very fast because his moment of inertia is too high with his big belly and heaving man breasts--swinging door works better for him.
Click to expand...

"moment of inertia" - Nice!

TEXANS84 said:
Although Chester had a horrible first year at LT with over 15 sacks credited to him, 2003 was extremely better from that position with only 5.75 surrendered. That's a drop in over 9.25 sacks.

Hopefully he pans out.
Click to expand...

But he is already on pace for 10 this year at the LG position. That is the number I'm afraid will go up.

By the way, that 1st to 2nd year drop is one reason Wand should have been given a chance.
 
Runner said:
Projections: Pitts and McKinney - both 10. Wade - 20. Weigert - 2

Thank god for Weigert or this line would look bad!

It'll be interesting to see if Pitts' numbers go up in the harder position of LT.

That 12.5 last year looks pretty good.
Click to expand...

Seeing as Wand's 12.5 included 2 games of going one on one against Freeney, I'll take them over what these other guys are doing.
 
Runner said:
By the way, that 1st to 2nd year drop is one reason Wand should have been given a chance.
Click to expand...

I am very confused on the Wand thing. Something isn't right in rivercity because Riley isn't better and Wand would be in only his second year as a LT and good improvement could be expected.
 
From HoustonTexans.com:

For now, Chester Pitts will move from left guard out to left tackle, where he started 32 games for Houston from 2002-03. Center Steve McKinney will also move slightly left to an old position, shifting to left guard, the position he played in Indianapolis from 1998-2001.

Zach Wiegert stays put at right guard, but Victor Riley will shift from left tackle to right tackle, where he had made all of his previous 85 career starts before this season. He’ll share snaps with Todd Wade, who has started at right tackle in all four games this season.
Click to expand...

I can't understand our coaching staff. I have no idea what their obsession is with Victor Riley(other than run-blocking). As someone pointed out earlier, Victor Riley last year with the New Orleans Saints at the Right Tackle position gave up 11.00 sacks from that position.
 
edo783 said:
I am very confused on the Wand thing. Something isn't right in rivercity because Riley isn't better and Wand would be in only his second year as a LT and good improvement could be expected.
Click to expand...
Me to Edo. And Wand's name is unmentioned in current OL personnel discussions. But he, Riley, and his position was one of the most actively
discussed topics by everyone (including Texans management & coaches),
prior to start of the season. Now with the shakeup, its only logical that
his name should reenter the discussion by the Texans. I think some people are being muzzled. Maybe our local ace reporter J.McClain, scooped by ESPN on the initial OL story this week, can unearth the story because I'm sure there's a story here.
 
TEXANS84 said:
So that leaves a difference of 10 sacks to split between them and David Carr.

Is the offensive line really the problem?
Click to expand...

According to the full play by play at NFL.com, Carr has been responsible for 3 of the 10 non-OL sacks this year due to running out of bounds. So that leaves 7 to the RB's and TE's.
 
infantrycak said:
According to the full play by play at NFL.com, Carr has been responsible for 3 of the 10 non-OL sacks this year due to running out of bounds. So that leaves 7 to the RB's and TE's.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That was one of the main concerns that I've been wondering.
 
infantrycak said:
According to the full play by play at NFL.com, Carr has been responsible for 3 of the 10 non-OL sacks this year due to running out of bounds. So that leaves 7 to the RB's and TE's.
Click to expand...
Who gets the one on the fumble/non-fumble-fumble. That ended up recorded as a sack too I believe.
 
Im sure Wade gets it after thinking about that...but that play was ruled a sack/fumble I think.
 
TEXANS84 said:
Although Chester had a horrible first year at LT with over 15 sacks credited to him, 2003 was extremely better from that position with only 5.75 surrendered. That's a drop in over 9.25 sacks.

Hopefully he pans out.
Click to expand...

But overall in 2003 your line didn't play bad. Wasn't Carr sacked on 15 times after 76 in 2002? Then last year they regressed and he was sacked 49 times I believe.
 
jagsfanincanada said:
But overall in 2003 your line didn't play bad. Wasn't Carr sacked on 15 times after 76 in 2002? Then last year they regressed and he was sacked 49 times I believe.
Click to expand...


We switched to zone-blocking in 2004, and things changed.
 
Vinny said:
Im sure Wade gets it after thinking about that...but that play was ruled a sack/fumble I think.
Click to expand...

That one was on Wade.

I should add, of the three out of bounds sacks, two were credited as zero yards sacks so if you want to give DC benefit of the doubt he may have thought he had made it to the line of scrimmage or from a don't want to give him the benefit of the doubt, a little more effort would have turned it into a positive play rather than a sack. As usual I will sit on the fence and say both are true from my general recollection. I particularly remember him arguing the spot on one and he has had several opportunities as he runs toward the sideline to plant a foot, turn up field and get extra yardage although he will definitely get hit if he does it--on 3rd down, that is still his job IMO.
 
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